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Garchomp (Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Mazz, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    My apologies for the confusion, I definitely should have been more specific. But yes, we want SubSD to be placed in the AC of the Swords Dance set.
  2. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Thank you you three for clearing that all up. Changes made. If you want the item descriptions to be changed more, let me know.
  3. BKC

    BKC
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    Please make Yache the first slash on the Swords Dance set. The ability to tank an ice attack is so much more useful than the extra power...

    Other than that this is fine.
  4. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    Fixed. lgi
  5. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    QC Approved (1/3)
  6. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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  7. BLARG weather BLARG

    BLARG weather BLARG

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    I feel that Focus Sash should be the first item slashed in, followed by LO and then Rocky Helmet. Rocky Helmet is pointless on a Lead set, as Rough Skin already ensures that physical attackers lose their own sash or take some damage in return for their attacks. Many pokemon lead with Ice attacks including but not limited to Mamoswine, Azelf, and Tyranitar. Scarfed dragons and any Lati@s also manhandle Garchomp without a sash, and it really isn't the type of pokemon you'd want going down in turn one after (or worse, before) it sets up SR. Far too many pokemon outspeed and KO Garchomp with Hidden Power Ice, so I really think that it's not a very solid option to be using. Rocky Helmet helps Garchomp spinblock when spinners are at terribly low percentages, but Garchomp already KOs Forry with Fire blast and Tentacruel with EQ. Starmie isn't going to care about Rocky Helmet, as it can simply outspeed and KO Garchomp with Ice beam. The only spinner Rocky Helmet might help with is Donphan, as it can't be KOed too easily by Garchomp, but as a lead set, with the comment "Because this variant of Garchomp isn't necessarily designed to stick around the entire match," Rocky Helmet isn't a very solid option.

    I honestly don't mean to knock on Rocky Helmet Garchomp, as it is an incredible support pokemon with tremendous offensive presence. However, I think that the SR set changes completely when putting a Rocky Helmet on it, as the Garchomp should then invest in more physical and defensive bulk, and function in a similar manner to the classic Support Garchomp set that is currently up. It's kind of awkward, with two very sets competing for the same Stealth Rock name. The Focus Sash set, which functions more like a Suicide Lead capable of weakening defensive walls, roasting Steels, and punching through slower teams does benefit from an attack boosting nature as a lead, as stuff that already outspeeds Jollychomp will still outspeed Adamant Garchomp, while other leads are for the most part, much slower. More offensive Garchomp sets in the lead slot tend to be placed on HO teams, while Rocky Helmet might on a bulkier, more balanced help punish U-turn users and spinners. I'd imagine that a Garchomp running Rocky Helmet is going to be around for longer to potentially set up Stealth Rocks multiple times while helping to punish U-turn and deter weaker physical attacks by threatening a switch and Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin damage.

    The SD set is very potent against bulkier, slower teams, but against faster teams, this Garchomp usually finds itself unable to KO more than one pokemon if its lucky, before being forced out by anything threatening HP Ice, Ice Beam, or a Scarfed Dragon attack. I agree with you and many posters in the thread that Yache is the best item to use on this set, but I can't help but feel Garchomp is still a little too slow sitting around its 102 speed tier and might enjoy having a Substitute up in some cases.

    For this reason, I think that the Scarf set is one of Garchomp's premiere sets in OU (at least better than SD) as it takes Garchomps above-average speed and gives it the Jump on every non-scarfed pokemon. Many people use a scarfer on their team to outspeed and KO faster pokemon, but also to handle +1/+1 Dragonite, +1/+1/+1 Volcarona, and Moxiemence which threaten to sweep their respective boosts. Very few scarfers are capable of KOing both without a boost, and Garchomp handles both very reliably. With a Scarf, Garchomp can destroy every single pokemon in OU that outspeeds it (except for Keldeo, who takes ~72%) while checking the most dangerous boosting pokemon in OU. I think it should be mentioned that Dual Chop should always be run over Dragon Claw, as this Garchomp can outspeed and KO its nemesis, SashZam, with Dual Chop 87.5% of the time (Dugtrio too of course). I suppose it is fairly predictable, and sucks when locked into Outrage, but Choice Scarf was the #1 used item on Garchomp for a reason: it's a very good set.

    I feel that the Banded set is terribly outclassed by Multiscale Dragonite (Garchomp has STAB on EQ, but it's unneeded power, as CB nonSTAB EQ from Dnite lready KOs 252/108 Jirachi, and Garchomp still isn't 2HKOing standard Ferrothorn with it; CB Aqua Tail is very underrated, but Dragonite gets the same move and functions better on Rain teams), and is one of Garchomp's worst sets =/

    To summarize: The SR set is very confusing as it's got too many slashes and spreads, without too much comment on Rocky Helmet, a good item but not a good item for Lead Garchomp. There exists the variant that gives up a coverage move for Stealth rocks, but continues to function as an ordinary Garchomp. There is another variant which functions like lead Ttar or other Suicide Leads which threatens to KO many opposing Leads while guaranteeing Stealth Rocks before dying. SD allows it to function kind of like tauntSR terrakion, being a powerful, physical threat that sets up rocks or uses SD to start punching some holes in the opposing team. Rocky helmet has no place on a HO lead of this sort. In fact, the line "Rocky Helmet allows Garchomp to compound residual damage against Physical attackers, such as Scizor or Terrakion," makes no sense as Garchomp can roast Scizor with Fire Blast to begin with, while KOing Terrakion with a combination of EQ and Rough Skin damage, getting up Stealth rocks as Terrakion CCs (if it used rocks turn 1) or straight up KOing Terrakion without it getting up any rocks in the first turn of the battle. Rocky Helmet would probably function best with the bulkier spread listed in the comments below. I also think that lead Garchomp can benefit potentially from split offenses to give it a solid shot at KOing Skarmory/Ferrothorn with an Attack Boosting nature, giving it actually more physical and special power than the typical Jolly/Hasty spread. Comments like "X nature if using Fire Blast and Y nature if using SD" would probably also help to guide newer users.AGH the summary got rather lengthy

    tldr; SR set is very confusing with Rocky helmet used. LO is by far the superior option on a HO suicide lead set. For something with more bulk or meant to last longer in the match to potentially get up rocks again or just deter physical attackers, the bulky spread with Rocky Helmet is amazing. Further, it would be helpful if the scarf set mentions that Dual chop almost always lets chomp KO zam, and even better if its moved about the SD set. Just because something works in WCop doesn't mean it's solid on OU ladder play, as surprise value sets gain much more potential in single WCop matches, but don't necessarily guarantee solid, consistent success.

    I'm extremely sorry if I need a badge to post in this thread, but I haven't been able to find any Rules or Guidelines for revamp threads like these, and would love to help, particularly because I feel Garchomp's Scarfset is criminally underrated, and also because I'd love to help in any way possible. Please delete my comment if I've made a mistake or if this post isn't useful.
  8. Jirachee

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    you use rocky helmet if it's not a lead

    you use sash if it's a lead

    this set really doesn't need to be a lead, although it can be used as one. this should be implied in the analysis
  9. BLARG weather BLARG

    BLARG weather BLARG

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    is this really Garchomp's best set though? I'm slightly confused about what makes this the main Garchomp set... I've had more success with Rocky Helmet and a more defensive spread rather than 4HP 0Def because too many people send in a physical wall and/or double switch to keldeo/lati@s/faster scarfer with dragon or hp ice/ and easily outspeed and KO chomp =/ I'm not sure if SD is run over FireBlast if Rocky Helmet is being run (rain comes up later in the match), but jolly chomp with no boosting item or scarf leaves it kind of vulnerable or walled. I'll try testing Rocky Helmet further, but I've been rather underwhelmed by it so far.

    edit: I've laddered to around 1950s with a sand HO team using the offensive rocky helmet set, scarftar, ebeltkeldeo, SDefZor, and analmie and it hasn't been too helpful =/
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  10. Namso

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    Honestly, I agree that Rocky Helmet looks kind of out of place on such an offensive Pokemon that is Garchomp. It's not even investing in any bulk to make Rocky Helmet a more meaningful option, and from what I understand, Rocky Helmet works best on Pokemon investing in physical defense and have some sort of recovery, as we see in something like Skarmory.

    I get that Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin is pretty lethal, but the one Pokemon who's sometimes seen with it, Druddigon, invests in bulk. It's not even slashed on its own Stealth Rock set. I'm pretty sure Garchomp has way more useful options to slash instead of it, specifically Yache Berry. With it, it can better handle the likes of Mamoswine and Ice Punch/Hidden Power Ice variants of Jirachi, among other Pokemon that typically carry Ice-type attacks. Lum Berry could even be a good option for those Breloom leads or to cure burns or Outrage confusion.

    Personally, I definitely don't think Rocky Helmet is that good on Garchomp, especially since it's going full out max Atk/Spe. It's also pretty situational, so in some frequent cases, Rocky Helmet won't be doing anything but hindering you because you're not carrying a more consistent item.
    BLARG weather BLARG likes this.
  11. Luigi Bros.

    Luigi Bros.

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    Hi I am new here, but isn't Garchomp supposed to run Naive nature when running Fire Blast in the SR set?
  12. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Just saying. And if Rocky Helmet is kept, you can just SC or AC the alternate spread. I haven't seen this suggestion earlier in the thread and imo it's a simple solution.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  13. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    I am backing this up, the big problem here is that Garchomp lacks notable resistances to contact moves to really abuse it. If it would actually resist any contact moves that could be useful, but in reality the only contact attack in OU Garchomp resists is Flareblitz which isn't even common. So in reality you will always have to take a hefty chunk of damage to get the effect out of your item. I mean sure it can be incredibly clutch to get a decent amount of damage on the opponent just for attacking, but it feels very situational. Garchomp doens't really needs it to handle Rapid Spinners as it either beats or loses to them regardless, Starmie just Ice Beams for the KO and if it Rapid Spins will get killed by one of Garchomps Stabs with or without the additional damage, Forretress gets fried by Fire Blast and at 1 HP it will get killed by Rough skin anyway, Tentacruel gets just flat out killed by EQ and it doesn't helps against Donphan anyway especially since Ice Shard isn't a contact attack.
    IMO Rocky Helmet doesn't really helps Garchomp itself the Pokemon mentioned in the analysis Terrakion and Scizor can be beaten anyway (and they aren't exactly Pokemon you should have trouble revenge killing early in the match) maybe mention how it puts Dragonite setting up infront of Garchomp easier in revenge killing range.
    Most of the time you will use Garchomp as a suicide lead with the offensive evs and for that purpose something like Focus Sash/LO/Yache or Lum berry are simply more useful choices as they allow you to fire of another attack and do some Wallbreaking early game something Garchomp is incredibly good at compared to other lead pokemon. Rocky Helmet will be mostly useful later in the game to get X in the revenge kill range of Y so while it could be useful to preserve Garchomp for later in the game for that purpose it could also turn out to be unnecessary.
    Of yourse i might be totally wrong here and simply don't see how Rocky Helmet helps to achieve something incredibly useful early in the game, but in that case it would be best to mention that more explicitly in the analysis with something more than it helps beating physical attackers like Scizor and Terrakion.
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  14. alexwolf

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    You are missing the point on Rocky Helmet on SR Chomp. 31% damage on contact moves is huge no matter how you see it. Even for an offensive mon, dealing 31% damage every time you switch into a U-turn user, Rapid Spin, or a priority user or a wall which tries to hit you is huge. Forretress ain't spinning shit on Rocky Helmet Chomp and Scizor loses almost half of its life if it decides to use U-turn as Garchomp comes in (31% + SR = 43%), which makes many late game sweepers happy. Choice Scarf Jirachi is so easy to wear down with Rocky Helmet Garchomp, which is invaluable as he is otherwise one of the most reliable and difficult to get rid of scarfers. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin just has a lot of use on a Pokemon as fast and bulky as Garchomp, because it can take a few physical hits without losing too much of its life while still having very good offensive presence. Priority and physical scarf users, both good ways to deal with fast Pokemon, are also fucked up nicely by this combo, something that is appreciated by a lot of sweepers.
  15. Namso

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    Well, Scizor and Forretress (Rough Skin will break Sturdy if it spins) are OHKOed by Fire Blast anyway and ScarfRachi will be OHKOed by Earthquake (it will likely Ice Punch you here too because it makes sense to, so Yache Berry is the better item). I get the idea behind it, trust me. Wracking up 31% recoil against stuff like Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Terrakion is pretty swell. I'm just unsure if it's actually the best item to run on Garchomp because you have to keep in mind that a lot of things revenge killing it don't run contact moves (Latias, Latios, Starmie, Alakazam, Mamoswine, Keldeo, Gengar, etc). It's useful in certain situations, so I'm more than happy to have it mentioned in AC, but I'm not completely convinced that it's the primary item to run on Garchomp when you consider its other options, especially because it's not using any sort of defensive spread to tank more hits than it currently can.
  16. Jirachee

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    Rocky Helmet is not for 1v1 match ups. It's meant to switch into these threats and wear them down. ScarfRachi and Scizor in particular are huge mons to take down for offensive teams as they can revenge kill your sweepers. A good player will not stay in Garchomp with Scizor or Jirachi as they know Garchomp can KO them, which is the whole point of using Rocky Helmet.
  17. Namso

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    Well if you insist. The writer should make this very clear in the analysis then, because it's important to understand how Rocky Helmet should be used to the best effect on Garchomp (as you can see). The way it's seen in the skeleton now doesn't follow that.
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  18. BLARG weather BLARG

    BLARG weather BLARG

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    Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet is definitely very good, but great on a more Bulky Garchomp set. The set has also got SR which makes it seem as though its a lead. Garchomp usually doesn't survive more than one powerful physical hit and finds itself KOed by special attacks far too often for my liking. The first U-turn from a cheeky ScarfJirachi trying to pick off a weakened pokemon while gaining momentum can be punished heavily, but from there it's not too difficult to play around. (Scarf Garchomp doesn't need to to switch in on U-turn or Iron Head; instead, he can just outspeed and KO with STAB EQ. There is a reason Scarf was used above all other items is Suspect/Standard ladders) Personally, I don't feel that a 252/252/4 Rocky Helmet Stealth Rock setter is one of Garchomp's best sets, but as long as the playstyle change between Sash/Rocky Helmet is explained, it will be easier for players to understand.

    edit: added a sentence
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  19. Plus

    Plus been cookin with the sauce
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    Not QC but some minor nitpicks.

    Stealth Rock set:
    Why is Dugtrio listed as a good teammate to Garchomp? First off, a lot of Dugtrio run Stealth Rock for their teams, but Garchomp does that just fine. The steel-types that Dugtrio traps, Garchomp has no issue dealing with. Heatran? Jirachi? Those are handled by Garchomp. The steels that Dugtrio loses to, Garchomp has trouble with as well. This includes Skarmory and Ferrothorn; Garchomp can also severely weaken Scizor with Fire Fang while Dugtrio hits for weak as shit damage. Just mention magnezone for trapping and leave it solely at that. If you are afraid of getting locked into outrage, run dragon claw. That's why you included it in the set in the first place. Its a better alternative than running something like duggy more often than not.

    SD set:
    • Lum berry SD Chomp is very good against more defensive teams; the biggest merit in using Lum SD Chomp is the ability to set up on Jellicent without fear of being poisoned or burned. This is also true for random Scald burns which many rainstall teams will try to do in acts of desperation -- sad thing is, it works many times. In more uncommon situations, it can switch into a Spore from Breloom then retaliate with Outrage/Fire Fang, or you could predict a switch and swords dance if you choose to do so. At the very least it deserves AC because getting statused completely ruins chomp's ability to sweep.
    • If you're going to mention the subsalac set, mention that using it with Dragon Claw is recommended because there are instances where Garchomp hasn't activated Salac berry yet, and you need to use Dragon Claw to pick something off instead of going for the speed boost. There are also instances where your opponent has something like scarf jirachi and latios, and you'd be forced to use outrage to kill latios only to be revenge killed by scarf jirachi. And this might seem like common sense, but list some pokemon that it is able to beat that would normally check it -- terrakion, keldeo, nonscarf lati@s, gengar, starmie.
    Counters:
    even moreso than this, ice type attacks in general. Cloyster is a bit eh and weavile is rather situational -- yet things like Ice Beam on Pokemon like Starmie or HP Ice from an Ebelt/LO/Scarf Keldeo screws Garchomp over and are way more viable than Cloyster. Just noticed that you already included them, but more emphasis on ice type attacks rather than pokemon could be nice.

    And again I'm not QC so take everything I said for what you will. :|
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  20. Stone RG

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    Welp, just some minor nitpicks, but i think that Fire Fang should be considered as an AC in the Swords Dance set, seeing as how you hit 2 things with it: Ferro and skarm, as for the former, it is more often than not in rain, in which case EQ will do more either way, and the latter is hit by Fire Blast harder, which i think should be slashed instead of FireFang. I agree completely with anyone that says that yache is the better option as well, i have found LO power unnecesary most of the time, and cripples Chomp's overall bulk, while Ice shard roaringly craps on a whole bunch on teams that rely on Ice priority moves or scarfers to check chomp, so it generates 2 kills a lot of times.

    Also, as for the rocky helmet thing, in general, even w/o bulk investment, its more useful than Haban due to the sheer power of dragon type moves either way, id like to also reccomend Lum in the Lead/Rocks set as well as SD, or get a mention in AC since it gets points for fucking up stall hard, and allows a better way of dealing with Rotom W as well as an outrage misplay.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  21. Mazz

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    Written.
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  22. PK Gaming

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    Here's my take on the analysis so far:

    Rough skin is described as mediocre in the overview, but I don't think that's true at all. It deals consistent residual damage to Pokemon that physically attack (ie: Pokemon who tend not to OHKO it) and it's potentially devastating in situations where your opponent is taking lots of residual damage. Best of all, it stacks with Rocky Helmet, making the item viable in the first place (and like Alexwolf said, 31% on a physical hit is huge).

    I don't like the latter half of the sentence, since it doesn't really tell the reader anything of value. In this case, you should borrow from the previous analysis.

    You should incorporate all of this information in your analysis in some form, as it's important. The bolded is no longer true though, however.

    This seems like an exaggeration (It's an unboosted and Garchomp is using a Jolly nature), it would be better if you toned that bit down and elaborated on the fact that Outrage is best saved until Steel-types are dead/weakened (preferably after you've killed them with Fire Blast). Speaking of its nature, Naive should be used as the primary nature since it doesn't cost you power (you lose out on a 2HKO against Protect Ferrothorn), and to my knowledge, you're suddenly not more vulnerable to anything worth noting.

    The only steel-types that actively hinder Garchomp are Skarmory and Bronzong, and this set is effective at dealing with both of them. In fact, part of this sets appeal is due to its ability to bypass sets on its own.

    I'd remove the fun fact, and replace Amoongus with a bulkier as it's not that bulky on the physical side. (use Landorus-T)

    Another hyperbole. Choice Scarf Garchomp is notorious for being "too weak" and it's outrage actually the complete opposite of a nuke (It's more precision cannon that picks off weakened / vulnerable threats and only sweeps when everything is near death).

    I'm not to fond of your checks & counters section.

    Don't bother mentioning Choice Scarf at all, as Garchomp itself isn't a priority user.

    You don't need to mention them, since this isn't unique to Garchomp (in fact, it's actually somewhat resistant to priority users, since none of them OHKO at +2) and Salac Berry Garchomp isn't a major set.

    It's worth mentioning that it's difficult to switch into Garchomp because it's power.

    ---

    Overall, I'd that you've done a good job, but your set comments could be improved. There is too much derivative writing in this analysis. For example:

    I just don't think this sentence is useful for a reader. Anyone with a rudimentary sense of competitive Pokemon should know that, and I feel like the Pokemon choices are arbitrary. You're definitely not the first person to do this (in fact I consider this a widespread problem) but I feel like your analysis would be stronger if you avoided this. I would refer to the onsite analysis for more context (it completely avoids doing this and is stronger for it)
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  23. Seth Vilo

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    This might just be me, but in regards to the AC of the Stealth Rock set where it says this:
    I think a rounded percentage is more attractive than the fraction. Yes, 7/24 is the accurate number, but saying 29.16% (or even "roughly 30%") saves me the step of calculating it somewhere to see that percentage. To me, the less math I have to do in just reading an analysis the better.

    EDIT: Also, 7/24 doesn't look too scary. 29% on the other hand does.
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  24. BKC

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    qc approved 3/3
  25. alexwolf

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    I agree with Seth Vilo, writing 29% gets the point across much better than writing 7/24. Also add Toxic in the AC of the first set, but stress it is only an option if you are using the bulky EV spread. Toxic cripples Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Gyarados, Cresselia, and Rotom-W, all Pokemon that bulky Chomp usually can't hurt significantly otherwise.

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