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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by xcfrisco, Feb 10, 2008.

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  1. xcfrisco

    xcfrisco

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    Let me start by warning everyone that this thread is gonna be very tl;dr. So if you're not interested in READING EVERY SINGLE THING I SAY please don't even bother posting and stop right now and move to a different thread.

    Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

    HP:108
    Attack:130
    Defense:95
    Special Attack:80
    Special Defense: 85
    Speed:102

    Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

    **Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

    Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

    A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

    There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
    1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
    2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
    3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

    Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

    1.)

    The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

    Using MetalKid's online calculator:
    Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
    Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
    Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
    Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
    Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
    Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
    Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
    Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
    Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
    Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
    Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
    Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
    Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
    Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
    Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

    Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

    And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

    I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

    CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

    2.)

    Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

    693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
    426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
    370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
    361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
    266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
    693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
    567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

    If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

    So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

    3.)

    Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

    100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
    95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
    90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
    80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
    75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
    70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

    So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

    There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

    What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

    Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

    But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

    Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

    Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

    Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
    -Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
    -The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
    -Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
    -Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
    -Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

    Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

    Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

    I love Garchomp!

    As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

    I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

    And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

    P.S. I am more than aware that a similar topic got closed yesterday. I would like people to know that I got permission from multiple Smogon admins to post this thread :p
  2. pictish

    pictish

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    Topic somewhat misleading. Gives damage calcs for CBchomp, brushing off counters to set as beaten by SD without mentioning anything about switching into SD chomp. Also worth noting that making the right call vs CBchomp is a net free turn and SDchomp packs other problems. Despite that, it seems like a sincere mistake as opposed to a ploy to make garchomp look better but worth throwing out there.

    That said, this isn't a reflection of my belief about chomp. I don't feel qualified to make a good call. I just felt the topic created an unfair impression by throwing the impressive damage calcs of CBchomp then leading that with the strengths of SD or conceivably a subbing garchomp. Whether or not garchomp should be banned I feel is better answered by certain people whose answers I anticipate reading.
  3. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    I'm unpartial to this, I could really not care less what happens to Garchomp now (even though Scarfchomp is an important pokemon on of of my main teams). However, I would just like to post that I think you outlined your arguement well, and I look forward to reading the (hopefully) good replys in this topic, before it turns to the inevitable "Garchomp is OU because i like it and *insert hardly ever used, wierd as hell set here* counters Garchomp and it sucks in ubers and would never be used"
  4. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    overall an interesting read, but can you put calks for scarfchomp as it is far more oftenly used, also SD chomp. and maybe say how much damage choice chomps will do is they mispredict and say hit zong with outrage?
  5. Volarion

    Volarion

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    From the other 2 or 3 threads, it seems as if people are practically split down the middle on this issue. Up till now, Garchomp has been hard to counter, yes, but the one thing that truly puts Garchomp above the likes of Salamence, Tyranitar, etc. is the fact that it has sand veil. There are a lot of pokemon difficult to counter, as aforementioned, so in order to rid Garchomp of its "unfair" advantage (this is a matter of opinion), why not just get rid of sand veil in shoddy and competitor? I believe it is a good compromise, as a Garchomp without sand veil is not much harder than salamence, tyranitar, etc. to take out.

    And by the way, CB variations of Garchomp are definitely not as difficult to kill as the SD, sub, and brightpowder variations. Bronzong is one pokemon that is a surefire switch into anything but fire fang.
  6. Deco

    Deco

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    Instead of getting rid of it, banning Sand Veil with Evasion Clause might be a good idea.
  7. Kira

    Kira

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    Also dont forget that even if you use a pokemon with an ice type move there is a magical thing that Garchomp can do. This rare phenomenon is called switching out. Many people say all you need is X move or Y pokemon to kill it. "It is so easy to kill."

    They are forgetting the important factor that Garchomp is not the only pokemon on their opponents team.


    Edit: Shoddy should just take out the evasion lost from Sand Veil since banning sand veil would ban Garchomp itself since that is it's only ability.

    Also Garchomp is >>>>>> Salamence and co. because he has the almost unresisted STAB of Dragon and Ground.
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    oh one more thing the threads name "garchomp, the most broken pokemon is OU" makes it sound like its the most broken pokemon, more so than deoxys-A/mewtwo could you change it to the most broken pokemon in OU?
  9. Deco

    Deco

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    I think it was just a typo, I didn't even notice it at first.
  10. CardsOfTheHeart

    CardsOfTheHeart

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    Here's my favorite calc when it comes to the Adamant 252 CBChomp Outrage:

    vs. 252 HP Regirock (highest defenses, like, EVER): 48.63 - 57.14%

    Anything that isn't 2HKO'd by Outrage (i.e. something that resists it) is at least 2HKO'd by either Earthquake or Fire Fang/Fire Blast. With the defenses Garchomp has, it definitely looks to be something that needs to be evaluated further for Ubers.



    ...oh, and for those even arguing that Garchomp would suck in Ubers, a Jolly 252 CBChomp Outrage 2HKOs Impish 252/252 Giratina (WILL-O-WISP OR OTHERWISE). It can also outrun Palkia and Rayquaza and OHKO them, too. Oh, the sweet revenge killing...
  11. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Yes I know I quit Stark, but I feel like reposting this, since the old thread got locked
    *goes off to kill Seph+*

    Garchomp is ridiculous. It is basically uncounterable in many ways. Although I did not see it as a threat in the early WiFi days, the recent abuse of Chomp proved otherwise. One wrong move and Chomp takes that advantage more than any other pokemon in the game (not counting ubers). So let's see what I mean

    Garchomp counters:
    Cresselia. Cresselia is the best Garchomp counter in the game. Unfortuntely, it runs into a fair number of problems itself. First of all, she doesn't have great recovery-Garchomp often comes in a sandstorm, eliminating Moonlight. Rest makes Cress quite unreliable at countering Garchomp, as CBChomp 3HKOes her with ease. Also, Modest Cresselias die to Yache SD Chomp and gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage and Crunch, while Bold versions fail to OHKO and thus risking Cress to stay longer in the game thanks to Sand Veil. Speaking of Sand Veil, Subchomp is very annoying to counter, unless you have Skarmory. Also, Cress is weak to Pursuit

    Hippowdon. Hippo is a great counter to both the CB and Scarf versions, but it utterly DIES to SD and Chain versions. Ice Fang does not kill it in one huit, whereas Chomp can 2HKO Hippo with SDed Quake. Not to mention how much Draco Meteor hurts Hippowdon.

    Vaporeon/Suicune/Milotic/Starmie/Slowbro- These guys do not enjoy CB Chomp or Yache SD Chomp. With Yache, their Ice Beams fail to OHKO, essentially allowing Garchomp to kill them. Against Milotic, it is even possible for Chomp to set up an extra Swords Dance. CB Outrage or Earthquake also owns all three

    Swampert- Dies to Yache SD Chomp very badly, unless it has Counter. Even a boosted Avalanche won't OHKO with the berry, and Pert doesn't like the notion of CB Earthquake either

    There are more "counters" to Garchomp, but please note the quotation marks. There's absolutely no true counter to Garchomp, and Garchomp brutally and sadistically punishes a mistake, unlike Gengar and TTar. It -forces- people to carry more than one counter to it
  12. evolutia

    evolutia

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    =/ Yeah while they're doing that, they should add more types that resist Dragon.
  13. Deco

    Deco

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    They should do that in a mod server, not in the official server.
  14. Kira

    Kira

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    I dont see that problem with just getting rid of the accuracy boost.
  15. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    If you start messing with a pokemon's abilities, you might as well give Arceus Slow Start. Or just give Luvdisc Pure Power.
  16. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    We've seen how this topic goes already, there's no point in trying it again. Let the administration talk it over and decide what they think.
  17. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    Except the other two topics were pretty much "Garchomp is uber, discuss!". This one has a well thought out OP.
  18. 1059860

    1059860

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    Thanks xcfrisco :D for recreating the topic. Just to let you know, its base HP is 108 not 102.
  19. Blu

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    You guys are OVERVIEWING Garchomp. Seriously, so if someone sends out a Garchomp, you'd go like "OMG SHITTT CHOMP I LOSE NOW, FUCKKK"??

    Garchomp is so OU that it's so predictable. I don't see why you'd be afraid to switch in to any of your Physical walls.
    Lets take a look at Garchomp's moves:

    Outrage: I don't see Outrage threatening. It's probably the best late game move sweeper, but just switch in to a steel type like Magnezone and kill it w/ HP Ice. Don't forget that Outrage gets you locked in for 2-3 turns, giving you the oppurtinity to switch in to a set-up Pokemon like Bulky Gyara?

    Dragon Claw: Way weaker than Outrage, which is good news for Gliscor, Donphan, Hippowdon. Don't be afraid of SD, because a SD-ed Claw won't be able to ohko Hippo, Gliscor, or Donphan. Donphan will be able to 2hko w/ Ice Shard, assuming that there's no Sandstream, Hippowdon can Roar it out or kill it w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up, Gliscor can 2hko w/ Ice Fang while it's setting up or Whirlwind it out

    Earthquake: Numerous Pokemons can counter EQ, one of them would be Bronzong. Don't worry about Fire Fang, It's just Dragon Claw w/ 10 base damage more. (Dragon Claw 80+40=120(STAB)) (Fire Fang 65x2=130)

    Draco Meteor: With Chomp's horrible Sp.Atk, what Special wall can't wall this?

    here's more "possible counters":
    Trick room team - A trick room team will make Garchomp's speed usless for a couple of turns, making Chomp a less threat

    Rain Dance team - Makes Sand Veil useless, also makes Kingdra >>>> better than Garchomp

    Adamant Cloyster(?) - Surprise Chomp by switching in to this Pokemon. let him think that you'd set-up spikes and shit. Then, watch him stay in and eat that Ice Shard. Cloyster's def should keep him alive even after switching in a CB Outrage

    A Focus Sashed Pokemon w/ an Ice move - beware of stealth rock/sandstorm though

    Hail team - Lead w/ Abomasnow and watch your opponent's sandstorm team freeze to death. Don't forget to carry a stall rein. Garchomp would sure be afraid to come out when its hailing for Blizzard would have 100% accuracy

    Will-O-Wisp - Laugh at Garchomp while he attempts to damage you

    IN CONCLUSION:
    I don't see Garchomp as threatening as you guys make it sound like. Garchomp's moves are very predictable. A little bit of mind-games and predictability will beat Garchomp
  20. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    Seph locked the one topic for the direction in which it went, not for the OP. And while the OP in this case is good, the rest of the topic will more than likely go in the same direction as the other.
  21. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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  22. oPlaiD

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    When I build a team, Garchomp is the only Pokemon I take a hard look at specifically to counter. Things like Salamence are dangerous, but if I build a solid team I usually won't have to worry about it specifically. Chomp, on the other hand...

    Right now, I feel like every time I make MUST include a Garchomp, as well, since I'd be gimping myself if I didn't use it. It's just that good.

    One thing the original poster didn't emphasize that I think should be mentioned more is Garchomp's speed. There are other Pokemon who have similar attributes but are slow Pokemon, allowing faster counters to get hits in and wear it down. Garchomp is fast enough where only the super elite speed Pokemon can beat it out, and with all it's other amazing statistics that just makes it ridiculous.

    EDIT: And for the guy above me, huh? "Make another Pokemon broken and beat Garchomp." How do you propose doing that? It's possible there simply isn't another Pokemon that can possibly be made "broken" enough to "beat" Garchomp.

    If anything, in this situation, Sirlin would tell us to abuse Garchomp in every way possible in every team you make.
  23. Kira

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  24. Cynthia

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    OK, there is no one Pokemon that stops all Garchomp sets, but this can be said for a number of OU pokemon, Salamence,Lucario, Gengar etc. Some Pokemon just have the right amount of movepool to knock off their counters and that's the way it is.

    Now as for CB Chomp, it is easily beaten through prediction. Countless things can siwtch into EQ, and steels switch into Outrage. Skarmory and Brozong can switch into both, fearing only the occasional Fire Fang/Fire Blast, which will not OHKO. And if CB Chomp locks itself into Outrage( necessary to 2HKO most defensive Pokemon), it is vulnerable to Ice Shards and faster Ice bems(Starmie.) Also an Adamant Garchomp(what you did calculations with) hits only 303 Speed, which is not that fast.

    SDSub Chomp has the issue of only having 2 moves to work with. With a Dragon/Ground combination Skarmory and Bronzong can easily kill it, Dragon/Fire gets killed by Heatran and is insufficient to KO things like Empoleon. Also if Garchomp subs all the way down to 1% priority moves obviously kill it, barring Sand Veil hax. As for Sand Veil, yes it's annoying, but there are a lot of things in Pokemon reliant on luck (see Togekiss.) The abilities of some other OU Pokemon( a la Intimidate with Salamence) are far more gamebreaking.

    ScarfChomp is good for revenge kills but is walled by all the counters mentioned above.

    SDYache Chomp is probably the most dangerous Garchomp variant in my opinion. However, Yache Berry is a one use item. After Garchomp locks itself into Outrage (again Dragon Claw's base power isn't enough to KO most counters after 2 SD), it is easy to Ice Shard or hit with a faster Ice Beam(Starmie), Garchomp can also be hit with a a faster Ice Beam with a SD predicted on the switch. There are also cases where Yache Berry will not save Garchomp, STAB'd Ice Beams come to mind, also Icicle Spear Cloyster will use up the berry and survive hits with its high base defense.

    Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is a great Pokemon, quite possibly the best in OU. But someone has to be the best. A convincing thread could be made for many OU Pokemon requesting them to be moved up mto ubers.
  25. Blue Harvest

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    This thread makes me want to create a defensive Yache Berry Garchomp...
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