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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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Once again you have put us all to shame with your amazing insight. I will be posting shortly on why Garchomp should be allowed in OU.
edit:
Much like many Pokemon players I came off RSE craze in which Tyranitar destroyed teams. During his peak of the 3rd generation people were bragging about how impossible it is to counter him 100% and suggested he be moved to Uber. This was again brought up when we all found out Tyranitar would receive the 1.5X boost from Sand Stream as well as many new benefits. This argument died down and eventually Tyranitar was dealt with accordingly.
I bring this up for contrast and comparison. Now onto a more tactful strategy.
I had long been absent from Pokemon due to my lack of a Nintendo DS. Upon my return to competitive battling, IIRC, while Garchomp was labeled mediocre much like his cousin, Flygon. This was of course after the release of Diamond and Pearl. Shortly after he was deemed an immediate threat thanks to the realization of (Swords Dance + Base 130 Atk + Base 102 Speed + STAB'ed Earthquake = Danger).
Surely Garchomp is a monster boasting a Base Stat Total of 600 with only two weaknesses; a 2x weakness to Dragon, and a 4x weakness to Ice. Lets break this down some.
Pokemon who carry a Dragon attack as a standard move are:
-Sceptile
-Heatran
-Charizard*
-Arcanine*
-Kingdra
-Salamence
-Dragonite
-Flygon*
Sceptile- The speedy Grass Pokemon boasts a Base 105 Special Attack and Base 120 Speed. He out speeds all forms of Garchomp except the Choice Scarf'ed version. Sometimes he carries Hidden Power Ice and let me tell you Garchomp won't be taking those attacks too well.
Heatran- Although at a disadvantage because of his Speed Heatran can afford to switch in on a Choice User being that he is the only Pokemon in the game that resists Dragon + Fire. Choice Specs Heatran OHKOs Garchomp with Dragon Pulse. To compensate for his speed Heatran throws on a Choice Scarf and alternatively uses Hidden Power Ice to destroy the Land Shark.
Charizard*- A very risky switch because of Stealth Rock, and a potential Stone Edge from Garchomp. Not only that but Charizard is also at a disadvantage speed-wise. He isn't even worth considering as a Garchomp revenge killer.
Arcanine*- Unlike Charizard who is immune to one of Garchomps attack, Arcanine will be devastated by Earthquake. Slower than Charizard and equally as fragile he shouldn't be considered.
Kingdra- Kingdra has a couple ways of damaging Garchomp. It can go with a Sniper Ice Beam or STAB'ed Draco Meteor as Kingdra will survive a couple of the attacks Garchomp can throw at it. Alternatively Kingdra can go the other route with Swift Swim and out speed Choice Scarf Garchomp and OHKO with one of three attacks.
Salamence- Boasting a Base 135 Attack, STAB'ed Dragon attacks in the form of Draco Meteor and Dragon Claw, as well as Intimidate and Dragon Dance with an immunity to Earthquake can be trouble for Garchomp users. To consider the removal of Garchomp without giving any consideration to Salamence is absurd.
Dragonite- The famous Dragon Dance + Outrage combo spells trouble for Garchomp. Because of Dragonite's Speed, Dragonite will solely rely on Dragon Dance to compete with Garchomp. Unlike his other Dragon brethren Dragonite gets the option of Focus Punch something they all wish they had.
Flygon- The previous Garchomp if you may. Only capable of dealing damage via Choice Scarf and Draco Meteor unless the opposing Garchomp is of a neutral Speed nature.
*6/8 Pokemon who carry a Dragon type move by default can deal with Garchomp effectively.
Unfortunately I will not break down the Ice attacks as it is rather pointless to show how devastating it is to shoot Garchomp down with Ice attacks.
On to Garchomp's sets.
Lets look at Choice Bander Garchomp the least popular form.
He runs Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Stone Edge and Fire Fang. He is walled by Skarmory, Swampert, and Hippowdon. To bypass Skarmory who can only hope to Whirlwind him away he can use Fire Blast over Fire Fang which then renders him useless against Bronzong who resists all of his attacks except for Fire Blast. Crunch is an option to hit Psychics like Slowbro and Cresselia for Super Effective damage. Unfortunately for Garchomp Slowbro can recover the damage, and Cresselia can just snooze on him. Swampert takes all of his hits pretty well and retaliates with Avalanche and Ice Beam. Hippowdon just recovers whatever he throws at him and hits him with Ice Fang. There goes the fearsome Choice Bander.
Choice Scarf Garchomp is almost the exact same thing but with a super dosage of speed. Unfortunately for Choice Scarf Garchomp, Pokemon like Donphan and Mamoswine carry Ice Shard, the later severely crippling it, he looses ferocity. Taking into account how common ScarfGar has become also means problem for the Land Shark as he tends to carry Hidden Power Ice every so often.
The Swords Dancer is a fearsome Pokemon but without Sand Stream support he runs into many of the same problems as the other versions. In case you don't remember here are Pokemon that give him problems whether he is locked into a move (CS/CB/Outrage), caught on the switch (Gengar, Cresselia, Skarmory, and Bronzong), or whether they just bypass him (Weavile/Mamoswine/Donphan):
-Weavile
-Mamoswine
-Donphan
-Swampert
-Suicune
-Starmie
-Hippowdon
-Cresselia
-Skarmory
-Bronzong
-Gengar
-SpecsLucario
Out of those Pokemon Jolly Swords Dancing Garchomp can not outspeed Weavile, Starmie, and Gengar. Unfortunately for him, without the aid of a Yache Berry all 3 beat him to the punch and OHKO him. The power behind this though makes switch ins a risky switch.
Pokemon who can effectively switch into a Swords Dancer:
-Hippowdon
-Cresselia
-Skarmory
-Bronzong
-Swampert
Given Garchomp has not already attacked, these Pokemon come in easily. Hippowdon takes neutral damage, Slack Offs, and Ice Fangs/Roars.
Cresselia is always trouble for Garchomp.
Skarmory resists Dragon, is immune to Ground attacks, and takes Fire Fang rather well.
Bronzong isn't fond of Fire Fang but Explodes in his face.
Blah this argument will be partial. My English isn't as good as other members and I feel like any more of an effort on my part will go to waste as I am sure everything has been said. 33 pages >.>
Try to beat a Garchomp when it dodges all your attacks. alkjfalfjlsahf. It doesn't matter if you have a team of 6 Arecuses when you can't touch the bloody thing.
I've basically read the 1st two pages, and don't know if this has been suggested yet, but here it is.
Abomasnow@ChoiceSc Hasty (252 Atk, 252 spd)
-Blizzard
-Focus Puch
-Wood Hammer
-EQ
basically switch in on a Garchomp's SD (or revenge) and choose to blizz if u think it's gonna stay (not likely), FP if it's gonna switch to TTar. If the Garchomp comes out again, take Abomasnow out to an appropriate poke to try and counter. If it faints, send out Aboma for another round. Choicescarf Garchomp is different, yet it's not the "metagame breaker" that we are discussing right now and I'm very tired so I wont suggest anything. This set has its counters (everything does though), but 4 out of 5 doctors do recommend it for better dental care.
-Peace
Abomasnow@ChoiceSc Hasty (252 Atk, 252 spd)
-Blizzard
-Focus Puch
-Wood Hammer
-EQ
basically switch in on a Garchomp's SD (or revenge) and choose to blizz if u think it's gonna stay (not likely), FP if it's gonna switch to TTar. If the Garchomp comes out again, take Abomasnow out to an appropriate poke to try and counter. If it faints, send out Aboma for another round. Choicescarf Garchomp is different, yet it's not the "metagame breaker" that we are discussing right now and I'm very tired so I wont suggest anything. This set has its counters (everything does though), but 4 out of 5 doctors do recommend it for better dental care.
-Peace
Just to add something, Ice Fang Hippowdon is definantly not counter to Chomp, he gets absolutely slaughtered by a subchomp due to accuracy (just had it happen to me with it missing twice in a row on a 1% hp Chomp with a sub up, and it's bloody common).
It exemplifies the whole problem with Sand Veil, you have a pokemon that should (statistically) have no trouble with it but ends up getting its ass handed to it most of the time due to Sand Veil.
It exemplifies the whole problem with Sand Veil, you have a pokemon that should (statistically) have no trouble with it but ends up getting its ass handed to it most of the time due to Sand Veil.
It's cheap. It's like getting a couple double teams and CMs on cress, then sweeping.
wow, thanks... -_-
Same reason I kept my response length down.
How do you not understand that this won't work? Every garchomp that you try to kill this with will have CS and fire blast.
Seriously though, nice use of scarfasnow.
...... uh Abomascarf?
But youre one of the pros. You have your own little section where everything you say will get attention.
@DemonOfWrath do you know why Hippowdon can take on SubChomp? Do you know why SubChomp is a SubChump?
If Garchomp decides to use Substitute he will give up on very valuable move slot. This move slot usually contains the move that will destroy a possible counter.
Lets say you're running SubChomp @ Bright Powder Adamant Nature 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe.
IF he plans on denting anything he will have to use Swords Dance. Thats two move slots Garchomp has already taken up. For his third move which should be very obvious you select Earthquake. For your fourth move you want something with power and you will obviously go for either Outrage or Dragon Claw. Now you have:
SubChump @ Bright Powder
Adamant/Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moves:
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw/Outrage
You decided to switch in onto Hippowdon who will most likely be using either Slack Off, Earthquake, or Ice Fang depending on the opponent. Your "HaxSubChump" is in trouble if it hits. But for fuck's sake we will say Hippowdon used Slack Off and is at full health. Your opponent decides to stay in. You decided to use Substitute and they decided to use Ice Fang. Your substitute is broken and you have now lost 25% of your health. You Sub up again and your opponents Ice Fang misses, you have kept your Sub in tact. You already have what you wanted so you decided to Swords Dance whilst your opponent breaks your Sub. You are now the proud owner of a +2 Attack Garchomp. You will obviously use Earthquake and your opponent will try to Roar you out, but fate is on your side and you have dented your opponents Hippo and he has missed. You go in again to kill his Hippowdon but shoot! He survived and Slacked Off the damage. Predicting another Slack Off you Swords Dance again but damn it! Your opponent Roar. He now has a very healthy Hippo and you have just exposed the crap out of your strategy.
Now what makes you think SubGarchomp is superior to any other? Substitute Garchomp is for a team with a Magnezone who fears NO Steel type Pokemon. The evasion is obviously not worth being walled by Pokemon like Bronzong and Skarmory.
Ok, basically I was pretty tired yesterday, so hail should not be in the set at all. Secondly, Abombasnow is not meant to counter choice scarf Garchomp, because it is slower. If you read the part about the SD (*hint-hint*, it's not ChoiceScarf) you would understand it is for the other variations such as ChainChomp. But seriously, who leaves their Abomasnow in when CS Chomp comes in?
Again, this Sand Veil argument assumes that Sand Storm is in play. I've NEVER seen a Garchomp run the Sand Storm inducing move, so you're assuming some other Sand Stream Pokemon on the team somewhere.
That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Why is it that people have trouble with Garchomp? Its because the people using him are doing exactly what the RMT forum suggests, they're running a cohesive team strategy (Support Garchomp!).
If your opponent gets down Sand Storm (Activating Sand Veil), Stealth Rocks (to negate the fact that BulkyDos owns every physical Garchomp variant) and gets in a Sword Dance to boot, consider, just for a minute, that the problem isn't Garchomp. Its the fact you let him run his strategy out and didn't actually get yours going.
I think that Garchomp usage will go down once people get more experience with building teams with a cohesive strategy to them.
Taken on his own, without Stealth Rocks in play, and without Sand Veil he's not Uber. Its only with support he starts to get close to Uber. There's all kinds of Pokemon that if they're on the end of a Baton Pass Chain or they have a favorable conditions in play can sweep a whole team and beat past their traditional counters.
The only difference for Garchomp is that is probably EASIER to make conditions favorable for him than for most pokemon.
Since both Sandstreamers that are formidable pokemon in their own right, it makes it quite easy to set up those "favorable conditions", particularly when Hippo is already one of the best SR/Roar pokemon with its massive defenses. So that's 2/3 setups (Sand/SR) on turn one, not terribly difficult at all. It's not like "well if we have 3 layers of spikes, 2 layers of toxic and SR up, everything is screwed".
For the record, if you mention BulkyDos in this thread, which does counter every Non-Chaincomp Garchomp, someone inevitably mentions Stealth Rock. But yes, it isn't hard to get Sand Storm into play.
If Garchomp is guilty of anything, it is NOT being Uber. Its that Garchomp's favorable conditions are a lot easier to put into play than most other pokemon's favorable conditions. Without his favorable conditions in play he's powerful, but not as intimidating as folks here think he is.
Because Abomasnow activates hail upon entrance. The others take a turn to use after switching to, unless you plan on giving every member of your team Rain Dance/Sunny Day.
A lot easier? That's an understatement. Both of his favorable conditions to make him wreck havoc are powerful, easy to get in, and hard to take away. Sandstorm is easily summoned by both Hippowdon and Tyranitar, and stealth rock can be used by almost everybody. Stealth rock is also extremely awesome, so everybody is already using it. Everybody. Sandstorm is really hard to take away: You're forced to either use Abomasnow, which is good, but won't survive a hit from Garchomp (if you start bitching about this, you know what I mean. If garchomp is in play, and you switch in Abomasnow, it'll die, no matter what. If it's an earthquake that doesn't kill you, you will get killed the next turn, and if you switch out you'll get killed the next time you switch in. If you consider the fact that we can assume stealth rock is up, because it almost always is and Garchomp usually appears later on in the game, Abomasnow will most certainly die if he switches in on an attack.) or use one of the weather changing moves, which are crap in OU. Stealth rock is hard to get rid of, as Rapid spin is a very uncommon move (and more people are ditching rapid spinners in favour of other Pokemon) and as soon as it's spinned away it can get set up again.
This will probably be an unpopular action but I'm afraid I'm going to have to be the bad guy again and lock this thread as it has certainly run its course by now after pretty much a full month of posting. We've been spinning our wheels for at least two weeks now and it's painfully evident nothing is going to come of this thread, and likely any thread about Garchomp now or ever.
We're going to have to accept that this is probably the most borderline pokemon in the game in terms of standard vs. uber, and that, therefore, there will always be a lot of people who will not agree with its placement wherever that may be.
We're going to have to accept that this is probably the most borderline pokemon in the game in terms of standard vs. uber, and that, therefore, there will always be a lot of people who will not agree with its placement wherever that may be.
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