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Gardevoir [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Hollywood, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    [Overview]

    <p>Gardevoir is strictly a very good Pokemon in NU, but most of the roles where it would normally shine are ones that other Pokemon in the tier can perform much better. Offensively, there is little reason to use Gardevoir over Jynx, a Pokemon with a fantastic secondary STAB, a sleep-inducing move in Lovely Kiss, greater Speed, and a Water-type immunity. Defensively, Musharna outshines Gardevoir thanks to its far superior bulk and more reliable form of recovery. However, Gardevoir is able to separate itself with its super Special Attack stat and amazing ability, Trace. It also has some support moves, such as Healing Wish, Memento, and Destiny Body, that are difficult to find in NU. Overall, Gardevoir still has a lot of potential, but one should seriously consider other options before choosing it.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Psychic
    move 2: Signal Beam
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Destiny Bond
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Gardevoir's most effective set is a simple offensive one that allows it to utilize its great Special Attack and good support moves. Psychic is first on the set, as it is Gardevoir's most powerful STAB move. Signal Beam grants it coverage against Dark-types and opposing Psychic-types with a slight chance of confusing any checks or counters that might switch in. Focus Blast gives Gardevoir a more powerful coverage move to use against Dark-types, particularly Skuntank and Mandibuzz, which are both hit neutrally by Signal Beam, while also offering coverage against Steel-types and the bulky Normal-types that commonly switch into it. Finally, Destiny Bond is a great move for Gardevoir to use in order to eliminate any Pokemon that might be threatening for your team. It also gives Gardevoir a reliable way to beat its main check, Skuntank, to open up a sweep for another Psychic-type later on.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Timid nature is used on this set in order to outspeed common base 80 and 85 Speed Pokemon that often run a positive attacking nature, such as Sawk and Braviary, as well as Swift Swim Ludicolo in the rain thanks to Trace. Life Orb is used for the necessary added power, as Gardevoir's poor physical defense and susceptibility to hazards make it fairly easy to wear down anyway. A few other moves work well on this set in place of Destiny Bond, such as Calm Mind, Healing Wish, and Memento, and can be adjusted according to your team's needs. Finally, Thunderbolt can be used over Signal Beam in order to hit Mandibuzz for super effective damage on the switch, but the lack of super effective coverage against opposing Psychic-types can be costly.</p>

    <p>Gardevoir functions best on Psychic-spam teams where it can take out opposing Dark-types with Destiny Bond in order to allow another Psychic-type to come in later on and sweep. For this reason, Jynx and Calm Mind Musharna make really good partners for it. Additionally, as they share many of the same checks and counters, Life Orb Destiny Bond Haunter forms a cool offensive core with Gardevoir, as you can sacrifice one to eliminate the checks of the other. Gardevoir also appreciates the help of a Fighting-type, such as Sawk or Gurdurr, to take on opposing Dark-types so that it doesn't have to use Destiny Bond to beat them. Spikes and Stealth Rock support are also greatly appreciated for Gardevoir to net the 2HKO on special walls such as Altaria, Lickilicky, and Hypno. As such, Regirock and Scolipede are great partners to set up these hazards. Regirock can also support its team by taking on Normal-type attacks, while Scolipede can serve as a way of defeating Dark-types with its powerful STAB Megahorn.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Psychic
    move 4: Signal Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Calm Mind set, Gardevoir can use its good special bulk and Speed to set up against weaker special attackers such as Tangela or Probopass. Once Gardevoir has attained a boost or two, its great Special Attack can break through many of the tier's bulkiest walls, while its high Special Defense stat can help it set up even further. Substitute helps Gardevoir by blocking status moves and preventing it from being revenge killed. Psychic is Gardevoir's best STAB move, while its last slot is primarily for coverage. Signal Beam should be the first choice, as it gives Gardevoir coverage against Psychic-types and Dark-types. It also gives Gardevoir a fighting chance to beat Musharna in Calm Mind wars. However, Thunderbolt can be used in the last slot as a way for Gardevoir to defeat Mandibuzz and bulky Water-types with greater ease.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>An offensive EV spread is used on this set to give Gardevoir some immediate power and to make it less reliant on setting up in order to deal decent damage. A more defensive spread is an option, but even with defensive investment, Gardevoir still isn't able to take physical hits very well. Leftovers is used to compensate for the HP lost when using Substitute.</p>

    <p>This particular set struggles to beat many Dark-types in the tier. If Gardevoir uses Signal Beam, it loses coverage against Mandibuzz, while if it uses Thunderbolt, it loses coverage against Shiftry, Zweilous, and Cacturne. On top of this, regardless of its choice of coverage move, Gardevoir struggles against Skuntank. Sawk and Gurdurr both make great partners, as they both have a great matchup against all of the aforementioned Dark-types. Bug- and Ghost-types often cause problems for Gardevoir as well. Weezing and Klang make great choices to take these on, as Weezing can cripple physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp, while Klang can become another bulky sweeper in case Gardevoir is taken out. Finally, Gardevoir is very capable of taking out opposing walls and Fighting-types, a quality that offensive Normal-types greatly appreciate. For this reason, Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose work very well alongside Gardevoir.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Memento
    move 4: Taunt / Psychic
    item: Light Clay
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a dual screens set, Gardevoir is able to aid its teammates in setting up and thus works best on hyper offense teams. Gardevoir's combination of good Speed and access to the rare Memento distinguishes it from other dual screens users in NU. Reflect and Light Screen are used to double Gardevoir's teammates' defenses in order to help them set up and sweep opposing teams. Memento gives a free switch to a sweeper and further helps partners in setting up through lowering the opponent's Attack and Special Attack by two stages. The last slot is far less important, but both moves listed can be helpful depending on what you would prefer. Taunt can be used to keep opponents from setting up, Taunting Gardevoir, and phazing the partner you bring in after using Memento. Psychic is also great to help keep Gardevoir from being Taunted by faster users of the move and to break Substitutes of faster foes trying to dodge Memento.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because of Gardevoir's relative frailty, it might seem like a good idea to invest in defenses alongside HP; however, setting up dual screens before the opponent can attack makes up for a lack of investment. A fast Memento is also important to keep opponents from picking off Gardevoir before it can use the move. For these reasons, it is best to fully invest in Speed and HP. If using Psychic, a spread of max Special Attack and Speed can be used instead, but it is typically passed over in favor of extra bulk. Light Clay should be the only item used on this set, as the few extra turns that dual screens are up can make all the difference later in the game. Gardevoir can use a couple of other support moves on this set depending on what you prefer to cover. Healing Wish can be used over Memento to give an offensive partner a second chance to sweep, while Safeguard can be used in the last slot in order to keep offensive partners from being hit with a status move, though losing a turn of Reflect and Light Screen might be unappealing.</p>

    <p>Frail sweepers make the best partners for Gardevoir, as without them, the dual screens it sets wouldn't be nearly as useful. Specifically, Belly Drum Linoone, Swords Dance Samurott and Scolipede, and Shell Smash Carracosta and Gorebyss make great partners because of their ability to set up quickly and take full advantage of the dual screens. Hazards are also nice, as Taunt, Memento, and most frail sweepers tend to cause many switches. Offensive teams with Gardevoir appreciate Scolipede for its great Speed and ability to set Spikes and Golem for its near-guaranteed use of Stealth Rock thanks to Sturdy.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>It is difficult to find other options for Gardevoir that aren't outclassed by other Psychic-types. For example, Choice sets might seem like viable options for Gardevoir, but Jynx typically runs them more effectively. Similarly, defensive sets have some potential thanks to Gardevoir's access to Will-O-Wisp and Wish, but other Pokemon, such as Musharna, Lickilicky, and Audino, have better mixed bulk. Lickilicky and Audino also have better defensive typing. A defensive Calm Mind set would also be run better by Musharna, further limiting Gardevoir's other set options. However, Gardevoir does have some some other move options that it can utilize well. Magic Coat can be used to reflect status moves, Taunt, and entry hazard moves back to the opposing side. Pain Split and Wish can also be used on any of Gardevoir's sets, though offensive sets typically prefer a move with better overall utility. Rain Dance and Sunny Day can be nice options to use on weather-based teams, especially on the dual screens set. Gardevoir sometimes struggles to find room for it, but if it can, both weather moves are very helpful. Charge Beam might sound like a cool option, but Calm Mind is typically better thanks to its consistency and the added Special Defense boost. Icy Wind can be a nice choice to slow down faster opponents on the switch, but normally only slower Pokemon like to switch into Gardevoir anyways. Shadow Ball is also a decent option in terms of coverage, but the coverage against Psychic- and Dark-types that Signal Beam provides is usually better. Finally, Gardevoir has access to three status-inducing moves, Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, and Thunder Wave, which can all help it support its team, if you can find room for any of them.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Destiny Bond and Memento both make Gardevoir fairly difficult to defeat without major trouble, but it can definitely still be done. Dark-types, especially Skuntank, Mandibuzz, and Scraggy, are all reliable checks for Gardevoir, as it struggles to muscle past the three of them. Meanwhile, Skuntank and Mandibuzz can both Taunt Gardevoir to prevent it from using Destiny Bond or setting up Calm Mind or dual screens, while Scraggy can take a hit and set up alongside it. Special walls and tanks, such as Lickilicky, Audino, Mantine, and Regice, can all take a hit and either hit Gardevoir back with a coverage move or use Toxic against it. Metang can also take a hit from Gardevoir and hit it back with a strong Meteor Mash, while the dual screens set cannot use Memento against it because of Clear Body. Finally, if you are unable to wall Gardevoir well, it's still pretty easy to revenge kill it because of its average base 80 Speed. Almost any Choice Scarf user, especially Primeape, who can U-turn against it in case it wants to switch, can revenge kill Gardevoir fairly easily. Priority users also tend to make quick work of Gardevoir. Kangaskhan is able to beat it with Fake Out and Sucker Punch, while more defensive priority users, such as Metang and Piloswine, can both take a hit and pick off a weakened Gardevoir.</p>

    skeleton (open)
    [Overview]
    • Strictly a very good Pokemon, but it is outshined by other Psychic-types in most roles
    • Competes with Jynx offensively and Musharna defensively
    • Overall good stats, with great SpA and decent Speed for more of a wallbreaking role
    • Has niches in Healing Wish, Destiny Bond, and Trace
    • Awesome support movepool, though mediocre physical defense combined with its defensive typing makes it difficult to utilize
    [SET]
    name: All Out Attacker
    move 1: Psychic
    move 2: Signal Beam
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Destiny Bond
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Best set is a simple offensive set that utilizes Gardevoir's great SpA and cool support moves
    • Psychic STAB
    • Signal Beam to cover Dark-types and opposing Psychic-types and offers a slight chance of confusing possible checks
    • Focus Blast for greater power against Dark-types as well as hitting Steel- and bulky Normal-types for super effective damage
    • Destiny Bond is great to take down the foe once Gardevoir has been weakened and to take down Skuntank for a partner to sweep later on
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Gardevoir runs max Speed with a Timid nature in order to outspeed common base 80 and 85 Speed Pokemon that often run a +Atk nature, such as Sawk and Braviary, and to outspeed SwSw Ludicolo in the rain thanks to Trace
    • Life Orb for added power, and susceptibility to all hazards and mediocre physical defense makes it easy to wear down anyways
    • Has a few other great options in moves for the last slot, including Calm Mind, Healing Wish, and Memento
    • Tbolt can be used over Signal Beam to hit Mandibuzz, though the loss in super effective coverage against opposing Psychic-types sucks
    • Psychic spam works well w/ it especially since Gard can take out opposing Dark-types with Destiny Bond; Jynx and CM Musharna are good offensive partners
    • Appreciates the help of a Fighting-type such as Sawk or Gurdurr to take on opposing Dark-types, particularly Skuntank, so that it doesn't have to use Destiny Bond to beat them
    • Spikes and Stealth Rock support appreciated to help get the 2HKO special walls, such as Altaria, Lickilicky, and Hypno; Regirock and Scolipede can set these hazards
    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Psychic
    move 4: Signal Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Offensive setup sweeper that can set up on weaker special attackers, such as Tangela or Probopass
    • Mostly has to rely on forcing the opponent out to get up a Sub since its defenses aren't great uninvested
    • Calm Mind to boost
    • Sub to block status, protect from crits, protect against revenge killers
    • Psychic STAB
    • Signal Beam to hit Dark-types and Psychic-types
    • Tbolt has good coverage as well, hitting things like Mandibuzz and bulky waters
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Can use a more defensive spread, but phys def sucks anyways and prefers the immediate power
    • Leftovers because Sub + LO is bad
    • Likes Dark-types handled which Sawk and Gurdurr do well
    • Offensive Normal-types like Tauros and Kangaskhan like Fighting-types out of the way, which Gard can beat
    • Something to take on Bug and Ghost-type attacks; Weezing for the former and Klang can take on both and provide another bulky setup sweeper if Gardevoir dies
    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Memento
    move 4: Taunt / Psychic
    item: Light Clay
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Really cool set to help setup sweepers to set up and sweep opposing teams
    • Gardevoir runs the set well thanks to its high Speed and Memento
    • Reflect and Light Screen to double defenses for an offensive partner to set up
    • Memento used for a free switch and to further help partners when they try to set up
    • Taunt is great to keep opponents from phazing after Memento or keeping them from setting up themselves and because this set is Taunt bait itself, so Taunting opponents before they can Taunt you is cool
    • Psychic can be used instead to keep from being Taunt-bait and break Subs so that you can use Memento
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Wants to be fast as possible to get up Screens before the opponent can attack, which is why Timid max Speed
    • If using Psychic, a more offensive spread of max SpA and Spe can be used, but is typically eschewed in favor of max HP to help it take a hit from faster foes before it can set up a screen
    • Light Clay to extend duration of screen turns
    • Frail sweepers appreciate the support that Gard provides; Belly Drum Linoone, SD Samurott and Scolipede, Shell Smash Gorebyss, pretty much anything that wants to set up fast
    • Hazards are cool since Taunt and Memento cause switches; offensive hazard users such as Golem and Scolipede are best for a hyper offensive team
    [Other Options]
    • Choice sets, but mostly outclassed by Jynx
    • Defensive sets, but other Pokemon do it better thanks to overall better mixed bulk (Musharna) or defensive typing (Lickilicky/Audino)
    • Defensive Calm Mind, but again outclassed by Musharna
    • Magic Coat
    • Pain Split tho defensive sets prefer Wish and offensive sets prefer a move with better utility in last slot
    • Rain Dance/Sunny Day
    • Thunder Wave/Toxic/Will-O-Wisp
    • Charge Beam but CM is 99% superior
    • Shadow Ball
    • Icy Wind
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Destiny Bond makes it risky to beat, but it can still be done!
    • Dark-types including Skuntank, Mandibuzz, and Scraggy all handle it well and can either Taunt or set up against the Screens set
    • Special walls such as Lickilicky, Audino, Mantine, and Regice can all take a hit and either hit back or Toxic it
    • Pretty easy to outspeed and revenge as 80 Speed isn't outspeed a lot of offensive mons
    • Almost any Choice Scarf mon (especially physical ones like Primeape who can U-turn or Sawsbuck) or priority user (Kangaskhan, Metang, etc) can RK is p well
    • Metang gets special mention for being able to take any hit from Gard and hit its low Def stat with a strong Meteor Mash
    • idk I'm tired feel free to suggest more if you would like!

    Long story short: Raseri and I came up with these as sets for the Gardevoir revamp. Since neither of us have extensively used Gardevoir as of late, QC feedback is appreciated before I start writing up a skeleton. These are mainly things have worked in the past for us. Dual screens I've used not too long ago and I absolutely adored it, even though the rest of the team wasn't very good lol. Support set was cut because I would really rather use Musharna 99% of the time, and that other 1% of the time I would rather use another Wish passer, but it does have the niche of being able to Wish pass and burn with Will-O-Wisp. Even so, I don't like running defensive mons that get shit on by Skuntank (since Musharna can twave and BPass against it that's not an issue for it). Anyways, feel free to leave feedback before I write this up. Also, the set order is tentatively the above, but I'm willing to move it around as long as screens stays last and choice is not first.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  2. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    I think this revamp is best saved for after the suspect test, to see if Jynx gets the boot or not. In any case, Thunderbolt should definitely be slashed/mentioned in the other offensive sets because Mandibuzz is a tool.
  3. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    Considering the current analysis mentions Mesprit's "recent departure" from the tier, I'd rather not have this sit.
    Thunderbolt definitely does deserve at least an AC mention in the All Out Attacker and Offensive Calm Mind sets though. Thanks, I'll keep it in mind!
  4. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    Healing Wish is also a great move to have on the All Out Attacker and Choice sets, especially on offensive teams where you have certain Pokemon crippled with status or are nearing death due to entry hazards or the like. It's pretty sweet having the ability to essentially "revive" one of your threatening Pokemon to wreak havoc yet again.
  5. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
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    we can start this now, because we all know Jynx wont get banned :)

    ya I do like Healing Wish, and i think it should be AC in all out attacker and the Choice Set, its a really handy move to have
  6. Lolk

    Lolk you can't stop the beat
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    imo the dual screens should be higher in importance because that is Gardevoir's niche that is least outclassed by Jynx/Musharna as Gardevoir speed differentiates it from Musharna's dual screen set. Memento is so good and any good team with a linoone has that set on it. Id also consider just moving the trick set to OO and saying how it is sooooo outclassed as well. :)
  7. jynx

    jynx

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    I personally think the best sell point is Healing Wish though, considering that it's rare.
    Memento might not worth as much as a sacrifice compared with Healing Wish, unless the opponent does not have a safe switch and that you tend to have Gardevoir left for late game.

    Walls serve as good support to the team, but I think Gardevoir can utilize Wish as well. (?)
    I personally use Gardevoirs defensively, with calm mind, which does benefit Gardevoir as it can go offensive as well.
  8. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    I would say that Memento is probably the better move overall because it can be very effective any part of the game, while Healing Wish is usually better late-game when your Pokemon are damaged enough for it to be worth it. However Healing Wish doesn't help to buffer your next Pokemon from attacks, meaning that the free switch in is mitigated by the fact that you will risk taking a full powered attack. If your Pokemon match-up is in your favor this wouldn't be a huge problem, but I would generally prefer Memento because it can let you set up on Pokemon that you normally wouldn't be able to even behind Dual Screens. I do think that Healing Wish might deserve to be slashed second though on the Dual Screen set (as well as AC on the sets Fuzznip mentioned). I do think that Bulky CM should be mentioned (I would have to test it though before I would say that it should get its own set) since Gardevoir has the bulk over Jynx and the Speed over Musharna. I also feel like Dual Screens should be before the Choice sets, as they aren't exactly amazing this metagame (tbh I haven't tested Specs Gard though, so this is only theory).
    jynx likes this.
  9. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    Umm, correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe you have the wrong idea here. When you use Healing Wish, it's as if your Pokemon faints, meaning that turn as a whole goes to completion. You will always be able to freely bring in a Pokemon with guaranteed safety because 1) the opponent already attacked and 2) entry hazards take effect after the Pokemon is fully healed.

    Personally, I find it more feasible to be running Healing Wish as opposed to Memento on offensive Gardevoir sets because it just makes more sense to me. Memento works best and should really only be used on Dual Screen sets because it sacrifices Gardevoir and hinders the opponent, two things that allow for a sweeper to set up under a blanket of screens and go to town. I would consider it to be more situational and thus AC material than Destiny Bond and Healing Wish because sometimes you wouldn't want to even use it and just hit something hard with any other move. Sure it can be used to kill yourself, weaken whatever is against you, and bring in something to set up and potentially sweep, but nothing is stopping the opponent to bring something else in to accommodate for that or even stay in depending on who you used Memento on. I'd rather use Destiny Bond in this case for the chance at actually bringing something with you. Healing Wish, on the other hand, trades the "kill me and I kill you" deal with Destiny Bond for a "say hello to my little friend once again" which I like a lot more because there are various partners that would love that. Think of Guts Swellow, Toxic Boost Zangoose, Life Orb Jynx, Thunder Wave + Swagger Liepard, Choice Scarf Sawk... the list goes on and on. All of these are super threatening and having the ability to possibly refresh them with an already weakened opponent could end it right there.

    This is just my opinion though and I'm not QC or anything so I'm not in a place to enforce this, but it's just something to think about.
    jynx likes this.
  10. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    BS everyone ninja'd me on Healing Wish for All-Out and Choice. I don't really like Offensive Calm Mind as a set; I mean it's basically the All-Out Attacker set with Calm Mind over Destiny Bond / Memento, and most of the time CM is an inferior option. I would rather Calm Mind be in AC of All-Out Attacker than have Offensive Calm Mind be a set.

    Definitely split up Specs and Scarf, they don't play anything alike; Specs of course is a wallbreaker and Scarf is a revenge killer. I think Specs's moves should be: Psychic / Signal Beam / Focus Blast / Healing Wish | Trick with Memento and Tbolt in AC. I think Healing Wish should be slashed before Trick because Specs Gardy is capable of 2HKOing all of the Trick targets anyways and Healing Wish is just a manly move. Timid for Specs as outspeeding all Rain Dance Ludicolos thanks to Trace is a huge plus for Gardevoir and something it has over Jynx, who loses to LO Colo after Stealth Rock. Scarf can use the same Psychic / Signal Beam / Focus Blast / Trick | Healing Wish. The same as Specs except Healing Wish as a secondary slash as Trick is more beneficial here as you don't hit as hard. Scarf Gardy can afford to run Modest for the same reasons Scarf Braviary can afford to run Adamant; running the other nature doesn't do anything outside of outspeed irrelevant mons.

    SubCM deserves a set, Trace and good Special Defense allow it to set up on a good amount of walls and does good damage even without the boosts.
    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Psychic
    move 4: Signal Beam / Thunderbolt
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Trace
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    Signal Beam hits other Psychic-types and Shiftry, while Thunderbolt still deals decent damage to Psychic-types but also hits Mandibuzz and Skuntank harder.

    Order of sets I think should be: All-Out Attacker > SubCM > Choice Specs > Dual Screens > Choice Scarf. Also add ability: Trace to all of the sets, it's the only ability worth using on Gardy.
  11. jynx

    jynx

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    If you talk about choice, it's not like Gardy's any one move have a reliably good coverage.
    The moves look nice together, but if you have to pick one (obviously you need to do so for scarf/ specs) you'd probably end up needing to switch Gardy quite frequently.
    Focus Blast has the best coverage in the above Gardy set but accuracy is a problem.
    It's not like Jynx that can choice on Ice Beam and keep standing there until something very unfortunate happens.

    scarf + trick is an ok, but many other Pokemon can pull that out too.
    (e.g. Mr. Mime doing that to set up Baton Pass while opponent switches)

    spec/ scarf + healing wish/ memento is something I don't understand-- you mean you have to switch into Gardevoir to use healing wish?
  12. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast Focus Miss
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    I don't really see the purpose of Specs. Does it really have anything the other offensive sets don't? Yeah it has Trick for special walls, but I'm pretty sure CM lets it break through most of those anyway after a couple boosts. To me, Specs just seems like a worse LO cuz it can't switch moves :(
  13. ebeast

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    Yeah I can see your point on Specs Gardy. I think removing it as a set would be fine, as like Dat Blast said, the All-Out Attacker can switch moves up and still hit hard. Also it has Destiny Bond to take down Skuntank along with it. Speaking of that I think Destiny Bond should be the only move on move 4 with Memento in AC alongside Healing Wish. Everything else from my other post still applies with SubCM being added and making the order: All-Out Attacker > SubCM > Screens > Scarf.
  14. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    I've used Modest Specs (Timid is not good) on a couple teams before with a hit-and-run type of playstyle, mostly spamming Psychic. It hits so ridiculously hard that even things that resist Psychic take a huge chunk of damage, barring defensive bulwarks like Probopass obviously. LO Gardevoir is more or less a late-game sweeper because it trades the reduced power for freedom, whereas Specs Gardevoir exists just to put huge holes at any point in time. Some calcs:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 165-195 (46.74 - 55.24%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 186-220 (45.36 - 53.65%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 175-207 (41.27 - 48.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cradily: 220-261 (58.51 - 69.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 167-197 (42.38 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 123-145 (45.05 - 53.11%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 127-150 (26.79 - 31.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 127-151 (34.98 - 41.59%) -- 80.47% chance to 3HKO

    With a little bit of entry hazard support, which isn't hard to do in this metagame, people will often struggle to reliably bring something in without taking huge damage. Rid the opponent of Dark-types and specially defensive Steel-types and you'll have yourself a really scary wall-breaker.
  15. jynx

    jynx

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    Agrees with modest Gardy.
    Gardy is not that frail to rely on scarf.
  16. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    For now, I'm inclined to agree with Fuzznip that Choice Specs still has plenty large enough of a niche as a wallbreaker to keep a set in its analysis. I still think Psychic spam is really potent, even if Mandibuzz is around in the tier now. Having said that, what I'm looking at for now for Choice Specs would be:

    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Psychic
    move 2: Signal Beam
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Healing Wish / Thunderbolt
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Trace
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    AC: Memento, Timid, Trick

    I'd prefer having Thunderbolt somewhere on the set (even if the place where I slashed it isn't ideal) in order to hit Mandibuzz, especially since I feel like Gardevoir would be most effective on Psychic spam where Mandibuzz shuts it down. And Mandibuzz dies if it switches into a Thunderbolt, whereas if it switches into Signal Beam or Focus Blast

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Mandibuzz (+SpDef) : 58.49% - 68.87% (2 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Signal Beam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Mandibuzz (+SpDef) : 23.11% - 27.36% (5-6 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Focus Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Mandibuzz (+SpDef) : 36.79% - 43.4% (3-4 hits to KO)

    It doesn't die and can Roost off the damage without fear of becoming weak to Signal Beam and Focus Blast.

    If it's physically defensive, it's 2HKO'd by Focus Blast, assuming of course that Gardevoir hits two Focus Blasts, which it only has about a 50% chance of doing. I'm sure that specially defensive Mandibuzz won't be too common when usage stats come out, but even so, being able to beat something that can shit on most of your team can be nice.

    Gard also does decently well against Skuntank. If it switches into a Focus Blast, for example, it's basically dead, especially with hazards up.
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Focus Blast vs 0 HP/220 SpDef Skuntank (+SpDef) : 60.81% - 71.76% (2 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/220 SpDef Skuntank (+SpDef) : 48.13% - 56.77% (2-3 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Gardevoir (+SpAtk) Signal Beam vs 0 HP/220 SpDef Skuntank (+SpDef) : 38.04% - 44.96% (3 hits to KO)
    All Out Attacker can't 2HKO, which leads to more mind games when you're playing against Skunk. If they bring Skunk in and would die to another hit, chances are they aren't going to risk a Pursuit only to lose their Skuntank (or at least that's how I would play in that scenario idk!). I do agree though that DBond Gard is a really cool way to get rid of the opponent's Dark-type, but Specs can do this as well while not dying in the process and being a pain in the ass after Skunk and co. are dead.

    Memento in AC because it still rules, Trick in AC because it's unnecessary because of Gard's pwr, and Timid in AC to outspeed notable threats like Adamant Sawk and Rain Dance Ludicolo

    If QC still doesn't want it as a set, that's fine, but for now, I still think it's deserving. If we're ok with keeping it, I'll just need to know what the moves/order should be, because I do still think Tbolt is worthy of being on the set but idk where to put it!

    I'm going to test Gard out though and see how it goes!

    I think I changed everything else but holy crap a lot of replies so let me know if I missed anything. o=

    Edit: actually I went to build around Specs Gardevoir and just ended up scrapping it for LO 3 attacks + DBond. That said, I imagine it would be the same for almost everyone. Still, Specs Gard does still have a niche, but I'm more -ok- with keeping it than in favor.
  17. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Specs should have Timid as a slash at the very least. Timid is pretty important on Gardevoir for the sole purpose of outspeeding Timid Rain Ludicolo, Adamant Sawk, and tie with other Base 80 mons, and Specs should be no exception.

    Even so, I'm still not sure about Specs Gardy, LO does everything better basically; the calcs Fuzznip posted are kind of irrelevant actually. LO is not a late game sweeper at all; it also punches holes in teams in any given time but also lures in Skuntank to remove it from the game with DBond. Psychic + Focus Blast from LO Gardy 2hkoes both Audino and Lickilicky, 2 Psychics KO Altaria after SR (Altaria sucks anyways lol), Cradily is 2hkoed by Psychic after SR, Exeggutor is owned hard by Signal Beam, Jynx dies to Signal Beam after SR, and Regice dies to Psychic + Focus Blast after SR. I understand that Specs is to be able to spam Psychic, but the main problem is that Psychic is very well prepared for in NU and in general Gardevoir is more of a threat when it can change up moves.

    Thinking about it I think I'd rather have both Choice sets in OO. I mean Scarf isn't bad just like Specs isn't bad, but its role is seriously challenged when there are simply better cleaning or revenge killing Scarf Pokemon to use.
  18. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    Well, I only defended Choice Specs because it just hits so freaking hard that it can afford not to have the freedom of changing moves for the most part. It also appreciates the lack of recoil with all of these hazards running rampant. Like, I realize Skuntank and friends exist to make this harder to accomplish, but that's where smart play and teammates come in. Plus, you can always catch them off-guard with a high powered Focus Blast or Signal Beam, probably OHKOing them with little prior damage. It's just, like I said before, a different method of using her. Maybe not the most optimal in some cases, but definitely worth using in my opinion. A Timid nature can be slashed I guess, but I like the power Modest brings with it. I get how it's nice for Timid Ludicolo and non-Scarfed Sawk, though. Also, since Choice Specs typically spams Psychic, you can use both Trick and Healing Wish or Destiny Bond. Something like:

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Psychic
    move 2: Focus Blast / Signal Beam
    move 3: Trick
    move 4: Healing Wish / Destiny Bond
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Trace
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    Depending on which coverage move you use, you'd have teammates to accommodate for it and whatnot. Thunderbolt can be AC for Mandibuzz I suppose.

    In terms of Choice Scarf, I haven't used or acknowledged it, so I can't make any judgement from experience. But I'm in agreement on the fact that there are better revenge-killers out there. Choice Scarf, especially Timid ones at that, makes Gardevoir even more vulnerable when being locked into one move because it doesn't have the much-wanted power to be threatening. Choice Specs is at least better in that respect and can be more scary regardless of being locked into one move.

    In the end, I don't really mind if Choice Specs doesn't make it, but it is good and different than LO Gardevoir. Choice Scarf is "meh" though.
  19. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    Yeah, I agree with Scarf for the most part. Scarf Jynx is /almost/ entirely better. It's mostly a question of what sets Scarf Gardevoir apart from Scarf Jynx, and I think the answers to that are slightly higher base SpA and Healing Wish. The question then becomes: is this enough to compensate for lack of secondary STAB and Lovely Kiss? Right now, I'd say probably not, and I agree with Scarf for OO. Specs is a set I'm also still really iffy on, but considering my ambivalence and ebeast's, as well as FLCL's similar feelings about Life Orb being strictly better:

    For now, I'm not going to include it. If other QC members feel adamant that it should be in the analysis (which I have a feeling most will feel the same way), I'll go ahead and add it. For now though, I'd like to get this started!
  20. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    ready fo QC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  21. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    [Overview]
    No need to say that it was previously one of the best, just say that it faces tough competition with other Psychics.

    [Additional Comments] (LO)
    I think points 5 and 6 conflict with each other. It says that Gardy likes Fighting partners to remove Darks, but below it talks about how Gardy removes Dark types with Destiny Bond. I get that removing Skunk is cool for Psychic spam, but idk. I would change the order of the two and specify that Fighters dealing with Skunk makes it easier for Gardy to stick around to attack and not need to sacrifice itself. Add Calm Mind to the list of moves usable over Destiny Bond.

    [Additional Comments] (SubCM)
    Remove CM + 3 Attacks as that's for LO's AC instead.

    QC Approved 1/3
  22. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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  23. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    qc 2/3 but this isnt official till i put my official stamp on it

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  24. Hollywood

    Hollywood time to pay!
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    this is written :)
  25. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~
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    add lo dbond haunter as a partner to the first set cause best buddies
    mention healing wish in ac of dual screens set so you can essentially revive something like sd rott or zangoose later in the game for another go around
    cant really find much else good job
    3/3

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