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Gastrodon (Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Gary2346, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    My sets are outdated

    [​IMG]
    QC Approved: 3/3

    [​IMG]
    GP Approved: 2/2


    [Overview]

    <p>With the huge presence of Water-type Pokemon and rain teams in OU, Gastrodon stands out as being one of the most reliable counters to them in the entire metagame. Its ability, Storm Drain, not only makes Gastrodon immune to Water-type moves, but also grants it a Special Attack boost every time it is hit by a Water-type attack. On top of that, Gastrodon's fantastic defensive typing gives it four resistances, an immunity to Electric-type moves, and only one weakness—Grass. It even has access to reliable recovery in the form of Recover. The combination of all these useful attributes makes Gastrodon a good pick for rain, sandstorm, and weatherless teams alike because of its ability to completely wall common Pokemon such as Politoed, Rotom-W, Keldeo, and Starmie, while also checking Thundurus-T.</p>

    <p>Although Gastrodon has the qualities of a great defensive Pokemon, it's by no means perfect. Grass-types such as Ferrothorn, Celebi, and Breloom are certainly not uncommon, and they all threaten to KO Gastrodon with their respective Grass-type STAB. Gastrodon is also extremely slow, and is thus forced to rely on its bulk more than it wants to in order to stay alive. Nevertheless, Gastrodon's useful attributes make it one of the best defensive counters to rain teams in the metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Earthquake / Earth Power
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Toxic / Ice Beam
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Relaxed / Bold
    ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to patch up Gastrodon's lackluster Defense stat so that it can take on physical attackers more efficiently. Because of its ability to stop a majority of rain teams in their tracks, defensive Gastrodon fits well on teams that have a weakness to common rain threats such as Starmie, Keldeo, and Thundurus-T. It should be noted that with full investment in Defense, Gastrodon is capable of avoiding the 2HKO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword, which is quite a feat. It can also avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Tyranitar's Crunch and Garchomp's Outrage, and then disposes of them the following turn. Earthquake is the primary Ground-type move of choice for a number of reasons. It deals more consistent damage to the likes of Jirachi, while also keeping the Calm Mind variants from setting up on Gastrodon. Earthquake is also useful for its ability to always 3HKO every variant of Tyranitar, a Pokemon that Gastrodon will commonly be walling. Earth Power is still an option, as it has the advantage of benefiting from Storm Drain's Special Attack boost. Scald is a staple on any bulky Water-type, and Gastrodon is no exception. The chance to burn physical attackers such as Kyurem-B and Tyranitar is just too hard to pass up, as it makes Gastrodon much harder to break. Toxic is a very useful utility move to cripple opposing bulky Water-types, such as Jellicent and opposing Gastrodon, that would normally wall Gastrodon with ease, while also keeping sweepers from potentially setting up on it. Ice Beam on the other hand gives Gastrodon much-needed coverage against Dragon-types that it will often go up against, such as Salamence, Dragonite, and Garchomp. Recover is obligatory, because without it, Gastrodon wouldn't last very long at all.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because of Gastrodon's decent mixed bulk, it can be EVed in many different ways depending on what you want it to wall. 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD with a Calm nature is a more specially defensive spread that can better handle special attackers such as Latios, while still retaining some physical bulk for Terrakion and Keldeo. Although a full-blown specially defensive set seems tempting to better handle Choice Specs Latios, it's not recommended, because Gastrodon is otherwise very susceptible to being 2HKOed by Keldeo, Tyranitar, and Terrakion.</p>

    <p>Ironically, some of the best teammates for Gastrodon are Grass-types. Ferrothorn, Celebi, and Breloom can all switch into Grass-type attacks with relative ease and set up on them. Breloom has the advantage of being able to beat Ferrothorn, one of the greatest roadblocks to Gastrodon. To maximize Gastrodon's walling capabilities, a Rapid Spinner is recommended, because it is very susceptible to entry hazards such as Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Tentacruel is probably the best spinner for the job, as it can absorb Toxic Spikes, spin away hazards, and switch into the move Toxic itself. Steel-types such as Scizor and Heatran can easily switch into Grass-types and threaten them with a STAB U-turn or Fire Blast, respectively. Calm Mind Latias and Jirachi can set up on pretty much any Grass-type in the tier that threatens Gastrodon.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Recover
    item: Wise Glasses / Mystic Water
    nature: Modest
    ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 172 HP / 84 Def / 252 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes full advantage of Storm Drain to pose as a surprisingly effective offensive threat. The goal of this set is simple; switch into a Water-type attack so that Gastrodon can receive a Special Attack boost and proceed to spam coverage moves to bust holes into the opposing team. One advantage that this set has over the defensive set is the sheer surprise factor. Most players don't expect to see an offensive Gastrodon, so they often let their guard down, which can lead to unexpected OHKOs and 2HKOs. Although offensive Gastrodon can effectively run a number of different items to varying success, the two listed above have been proven to be the most effective.</p>

    <p>Surf is the most powerful Water-type STAB move that Gastrodon can learn. It decimates Ground-types such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Hippowdon, while also OHKOing a decent portion of the metagame that doesn't resist it. A rain-boosted +1 Surf can 2HKO Keldeo, despite it resisting the attack. Here are some calculations showcasing Surf's surprising power, assuming a +1 Special Attack boost, rainy weather, and Mystic Water as Gastrodon's held item:</p>
    <ul="damage_calculation">
    <li>Surf vs. 4/0 Breloom: 275-324 (104.96 - 123.66%) – guaranteed OHKO</li>
    <li>Surf vs. 0/4 Keldeo: 197-232 (60.99 - 71.82%) – guaranteed 2HKO</li>
    <li>Surf vs. 56/0 Kyurem-B: 198-234 (48.88 - 57.77%) – guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Surf vs. 252/0 Politoed: 182-214 (47.39 - 55.72%) – guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    <li>Surf vs. 72/0 Latias: 144-171 (45.14 - 53.6%) – guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock</li>
    </ul>


    <p>Earth Power gives Gastrodon STAB Ground-type coverage against the likes of Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Jellicent, which all resist or are immune to its Water-type STAB. Moreover, a +1 Earth Power has a slight chance of 2HKOing Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock, which can deter it from freely switching into Gastrodon. Ice Beam gives this set near-perfect coverage by hitting Grass-types such as Celebi on the switch and Dragon-types such as Salamence and Latios harder then anything else. Recover is once again heavily stressed because it greatly improves Gastrodon's longevity and makes it a more efficient attacker. Due to its very low Speed stat, Gastrodon will oftentimes be taking a hit before dealing one, so Recover is all the more important.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread gives Gastrodon as much power as possible while also giving it enough bulk to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword. Although offensive Gastrodon can effectively run a number of different items to varying success, the two listed above have been proven to be the most effective. Wise Glasses give a 10% boost to all of Gastrodon's attacking moves, while Mystic Water boosts its Water-type attacks by 20%. Leftovers is probably the most viable of all the other options, as it gives Gastrodon a constant source of recovery while also potentially bluffing a defensive set. However, Gastrodon is relatively weak without any kind of boosting item, so the loss of power will be noticeable. A Life Orb can be used if Wise Glasses aren't powerful enough for you, but Gastrodon hates taking extra damage from recoil. If you do choose to run Life Orb, make sure to use an EV spread of 104 HP / 152 Def / 252 SpA to still avoid the 2HKO from Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword and to also hit a Life Orb number to minimize recoil. A Choice Specs set can be used for more instant power and the ability to 2HKO even Blissey and Ferrothorn with +1 Surf in the rain. The biggest problem with Choice Specs, however, is that Gastrodon really doesn't like being locked into one move; it likes prefers the freedom of switching moves, as well as the ability to use Recover reliably. When running Choice Specs, Hidden Power Grass should be used over Recover to hit Rotom-W, Jellicent, Politoed, and other Gastrodon harder then anything else. Scald can be used over Surf for a chance to burn physical attackers, but the power drop is noticeable. Rain Dance can be used in the fourth slot for a last-ditch effort to win the weather war, but the loss of reliable recovery is usually not worth it. If outspeeding Chansey is important, a spread of 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe can be used, but Gastrodon becomes more susceptible to being 2HKOed by Keldeo's Secret Sword.</p>

    <p>When choosing teammates for offensive Gastrodon, you should always first consider Politoed, as Surf loses out on so much power that you really shouldn't be using offensive Gastrodon without Politoed anyway. Ferrothorn is once again a recommended partner because it can tank powerful attacks that threaten Gastrodon while also absorbing Toxic and resisting Grass-type moves. Ferrothorn can also provide Gastrodon with entry hazard support, which can make it all the more threatening. Toxicroak pairs well with Gastrodon because it can set up on Breloom, Ferrothorn, and Celebi that lack Psychic, while Tornadus can bust through Jellicent and Celebi with Hurricane for Gastrodon.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As Gastrodon is such a niche Pokemon in OU, there aren't too many other viable options over in moves already listed above. Yawn seems like a decent move to force switches and potentially put something to sleep, but Toxic is much better overall because of its ability to cripple opposing walls. Clear Smog is another option to keep sweepers from setting up on Gastrodon, but Toxic is yet again preferred, as Clear Smog's does little damage anyway. Memento can be used to heavily weaken the opposing Pokemon and allow a teammate to potentially set up on it, but Gastrodon is too slow to use it effectively. Counter and Mirror Coat are gimmicky strategies that are very hard to fit onto its defensive set, but they can work with proper prediction. Stockpile might seem like an interesting move to make Gastrodon really hard to KO, but it doesn't really accomplish anything outside of pointless stalling, and Gastrodon can just be phazed out anyway. Sand Force can make Gastrodon's Earth Power and Earthquake very powerful in the sand, but Gastrodon has to forgo its best and only niche in countering rain teams, which is one of the only reasons to use it in the first place.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Although Gastrodon's defensive typing, Storm Drain ability, and access to Recover might make it seem nearly unbreakable, there are many Pokemon that can take it on. Any Grass-type Pokemon with a STAB Grass-type move can prey on its 4x weakness and easily OHKO pretty much any variant of Gastrodon, as it is 4x weak to it. Ferrothorn, Roserade, and Celebi are some of the best defensive counters to Gastrodon in the game, while Breloom and Venusaur are two of its best checks. Ferrothorn and Roserade can even set up Spikes all over Gastrodon, as they fear nothing from it. Offensive variants of Gastrodon can be somewhat difficult to switch into, especially when it's in the rain and has nabbed a +1 Special Attack boost. Specially defensive Celebi is probably one of the most reliable counters to it because it's never OHKOed by Ice Beam and can threaten Gastrodon the following turn with Giga Drain. With some investment in Special Defense, Ferrothorn is a solid counter to the offensive set, as it can avoid the 2HKO from any move. It must be wary of Scald from the defensive set though, as which can burn Ferrothorn. Special walls with access to Natural Cure or Heal Bell can easily wall any variant of Gastrodon, even if it carries Toxic. Anything with Toxic, such as Blissey, Chansey, and Jellicent, can heavily cripple Gastrodon, because it depends so much on its bulk and recovery to stay alive.</p>

    <p>Thundurus-T, one of the common Pokemon Gastrodon is commonly called on to check, can easily lure and KO it with Grass Knot. Even though Gastrodon's defensive set is designed to wall them, it still fears powerful physical and special attackers. Choice Specs Latios threatens to OHKO physically defensive Gastrodon with Draco Meteor, while Choice Band Kyurem-B and Dragonite can easily 2HKO it with Outrage. SubCM Latias can easily set up on defensive Gastrodon, even it if has Ice Beam. Calm Mind Jirachi can also set up on defensive Gastrodon if it's running Earth Power over Earthquake.</p>
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  2. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Well I finally got this up. I've been so busy these past few days.

    Anyways, I have three important question for QC that needs to be addressed. First off, I've been testing out Earthquake over EP on the defensive set, and I must say that it's still a very viable move. The ability to keep Jirachi from setting up on you when you're not at +1 and to almost 2HKO T-Tar is amazing too. It's not like having EP over EQ makes THAT much of a difference anyway, because even at +1 an uninvested Earth Power isn't going to be doing that much anyway. I think that the ability to always beat Jirachi reliably and to easily dispose of T-Tar without having to fish for a Scald burn is more then enough of a reason to warrant a slash over Earth Power. That's just my opinion, but I'll leave it up to QC to decide.

    Also, I've been thinking if Ice Beam needs to be slashed before anything on the defensive set. Ice Beam is absolutely amazing on physically defensive Gastrodon, because it will primarily be walling Dragons that fail to 2HKO it with Outrage like Salamence and Garchomp. On top of that, Gastro can live a +1 or Banded Outrage from Dragonite and KO it once its Multiscale is broken, which is pretty important. Ice Beam to me just seems very important on a physically oriented Gastro, but I don't really know if it warrants a slash over Scald or even Toxic. I'm not so sure. For now, I'm keeping it slashed after Scald.

    Last but not least, does anyone else think that Choice Specs is still slash material? It still hits extremely hard under the right circumstances, to a point where only Jellicent and Toxicroak can switch into Surf. The biggest problem is that Gastro has no reliable means of recovery which it desperately needs for being such a slow Pokemon, and it hates being locked into one move because of what I just mentioned previously. It NEEDS recovery, and it NEEDS freedom. I feel like Specs should be put into AC and not slashed after LO, but I'd like some input first. Overall, Specs for me just didn't seem to be as effective as LO.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013
  3. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    I don't find Scald replaceable. Spreading burn with a possible rain boost and STAB is amazing. Toxic / Ice Beam is what I want.

    AC Specs, yes.

    EQ first, absolutely.
  4. Spirit

    Spirit
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    I"m not QC, but I have a few suggestions.

    Earthquake allows Gastro to beat CM Keldeo too, it's not that common, but its especially useful niche for stall teams. So maybe mention that with the merits of Earthquake? I'd also mention how Gastrodon is huge Spikes bait, so pairing it with Spinner wouldn't be half bad. Preferably Tentacruel because it can absorb the rare T-spikes too. Physically defensive Gastro is also 2HKO'd by Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword after Spikes, so that's another merit to mentioning a Spinner if I ever saw one.

    I'd also remove this point from the overview:

    Gastrodon's job is to take hits, this line implies that it can't do that job very well, which isn't true. It also has Recover, so it can continually take strong hits if it needs to.

    For the C&C mention of Roserade and Ferrothorn, I'd mention that they can use Gastrodon as setup bait.

    This looks nice otherwise. So good luck.
  5. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Alright Specs is now AC and Ice Beam is slashed after Toxic. Thanks Jukain.

    Implemented most of your recommendations. I didn't really want to make it sound like Gastrodon wasn't a great wall, I just wanted to stress that without investment in a certain stat, it's fairly vulnerable. For example, Specs Latios annihilates it, and Thundurus-T's Focus Blast has a chance to 2HKO the physically defensive variant. But I agree that it could be misinterpreted, so I removed it. Thank you.
  6. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I apologize for the double posting, but I just wanted to get this out there right now before you guys start to make any decisions on the current special attacking set. I'm going off of what I saw last night on IRC.

    I agree that LO recoil is a pain and it really sucks that an already very slow Pokemon has to take a hit, then hopefully KO something, then lose health from recoil, and then try to find a chance to Recover after most likely tanking a second hit on top of that. It looks easier said then done to Recover on the special attacking set. There's just not enough of an opportunity when most teams have something that can break through Gastrodon or can wall it.

    Now for the Specs set, I'm not entirely sure it's better then the LO set TBH. Not only does it lack any sort of reliable way to Recover, it also can't switch moves, which is quite a problem. Although a +1 Surf hits like a fucking truck, there are times when EP or Ice Beam is a better choice against certain threats like Latias and Toxicroak, and not having the freedom to alternate between coveraging moves causes Gastrodon to kill a LOT of your teams momentum. Don't get me wrong, it's still very powerful and quite effective when put to good use, but the lack of recovery (I wouldn't run Recover on a Choice set), lack of speed, and being locked into one move sucks, and I've always found the LO set to be more effective in this current metagame. Even with LO recoil, it's much easier to keep alive then the Specs set. Recover makes all the difference to me IMO. Recover and move freedom > Raw Power prevails in this case.

    Now for Leftovers, after doing some testing, I think it could potentially deserve a slash before or after Life Orb. The lack of recoil combined with Recover, move freedom, and the frequent opportunities for Gastrodon to get a +1 boost makes up for the lack of a boosting item. The drop in power is noticeable though, and some of the cool KOs and 2HKOs it used to be able to achieve like the KO on Breloom with Surf on the switch or the ability to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn with EP without hazards was pretty neat too. However, its great natural bulk combined with reliable recovery makes this set very successful at becoming a realiable offensive tank without the repercussions from LO or Specs.

    I honestly think the set should look like this:

    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 124 HP / 132 Def / 252 SpA

    With Specs given a detailed description in AC, enough to show players that it's still perfectly viable, but LO or Leftovers are preferred for the reasons I listed above. Then of course the LO EV spread would be explained in the set overview for the LO number and shit like that.

    So what does QC think about this? After testing this stuff out, this is the best special attacking Gastro set IMO for this current metagame, but I'd definitely like some input from you guys first. Thanks.
  7. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    I would give Wise Glasses a slash. It boosts all three attacks and doesn't bite into your health with Life Orb.
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    We talked about the matter you raised among the QC team. alexwolf and I agreed that Leftovers deviate a lot from the original purpose of this set, which is to nuke shit as hard as possible. No body else in the convo really objected to this, although shrang offered an explanation why he suggested Leftovers on this set (to better check the likes of Thundurus-T while hitting shit hard).

    I think the general agreement is that Leftovers should drop to AC, whereas a boosting item like Water Gem, Mystic Water / Soft Sand, Expert Belt, or Wise Glasses to be slashed with Life Orb. I'm personally not a fan of Wise Glasses weak 10% boosts, so I would prefer a different item to be slashed with Life Orb.
  9. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Alright I decided to slash Mystic Water with Life Orb because after doing a lot of calcs and a bit of testing, I noticed that I was spamming Surf most of the time anyway, and only a few times did I actually need to use a coverage move. There aren't any specific KOs that Gastrodon misses out on without E-Belt or Wise Glasses, and I only used Earth Power for coverage, and I hated how Water Gem was a one time deal, so Mystic Water seemed to be the best option. Surf can still do massive amounts of damage to things that don't resist it, and the calcs are actually pretty comparable with LO itself, so it should be fine.

    This is ready for the QC checking if everything looks correct.
  10. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    me and bkc favor wise glasses / mystic water, and we all want lo dropped to ac. d the latter, the former needs more discussion.
  11. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Hmmm...okay. For now I ACed Life Orb and made the slashes that you guys wanted. I'll wait to see if I need to change anything else.
  12. kill yourself

    kill yourself .|~Fashionista~|.
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    aight

    ~QuALiTY CoNtRoL AppRoVeD 1/3~
  13. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Thanks BKC.
  14. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    In C&C:

    - mention really powerful physical attackers like cbnite

    - mention giga drain volc

    qc 2/3
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Don't mention Giga Drain Volcarona in checks and counters. Volcarona can't really switch-in Gastrodon under standard conditions (SR up) as both Scald and EQ OHKO or nearly OHKO after SR, while Toxic obviously cripples. Not only this, but it isn't even a good lure as if i see you bringing your Volcarona into Gastrodon i can immediately understand you have Giga Drain. The only way that Giga Drain Volcarona can lure Gastrodon is if Gastrodon switches in on it, which isn't what we mention in checks and counters.
  16. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Alright thanks guys. I implemented your suggestions. I'll try to get this written up by the middle of this week.
  17. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Concerning the Wise Glasses slash, I'm really wondering, does a 1.1 boost actually obtain any needed KOs? It's such a miniscule boost that I almost doubt it. Even then, is such a tiny boost worth losing gradual recovery from leftovers, which helps the bulk you are trying to conserve by not using a Life Orb?

    I just don't see how anything could take advantage of such a small boost. Again, if it actually KOs something than ignore this, but as of how it stands I think Leftovers recovery would come in handy so much more often, especially considering the reason these items are slashed is to not cut into Gastrodon's bulk. You don't even bluff Gastrodon as a wall, as if there are any hazards up and it doesn't receive Leftovers recovery, you have already revealed your set to the opponent.

    I think the slash should be Leftovers/Mystic Water as a result, and I think you guys should reconsider slashing such a seemingly rather poor item onto this set.
  18. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    The Wise Glasses are still being discussed according to Jukain, but I haven't heard much since then so I'm assuming that Wise Glasses are here to stay for now. After doing calcs, there really isn't any specific 2HKOs or KOs that Wise Glasses obtain, and I've always preferred on running Leftovers or Mystic Water because I do agree that Wise Glasses is just an excuse not to run Life Orb.

    I've been waiting to write this up for this reason, so unless we for SURE want Wise Glasses to be the primary slash, I kind of want to wait to write up the Offensive set for now.
  19. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Just write it up so that Mystic Water is easily removeable when it is time to make a judgement on it, because right now, it really does seem removeable.
  20. Celever

    Celever

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    Not QC but:
    "
    • Toxic will stop any Gastrodon in its tracks, because it depends so much on recovery to stay alive"
    Do something like
    "Toxic will stop any Gastrodon in its tracks, as it depends so much on recovery to stay alive it is benefited greatly by Heal Bell support."
  21. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Alright I'll start writing this up then.
  22. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Celever it's a bullet point, it doesn't need to be grammatically correct. also we don't check grammar until qc 3/3 is done and over with.
  23. Celever

    Celever

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    I didn't correct the grammar I pointed out that Gastrodon likes Heal Bell support a lot.
  24. AccidentalGreed

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    That can go in AC, but not Checks and Counters.
  25. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Feb 25, 2011
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    if anyone seriously mentions heal bell support i'm gonna cringe...you could justify it for like 95% of pokemon, gastro is not in specific need of it. if anything mention aromatherapy bliss/chan for pure stall only...yeah.

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