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Gems-Are they better THAN we think?

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Boondocker, Sep 23, 2012.

  1. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    "Gems are one-use type-enhancing items introduced in Generation V. There are 17 types of Gems, one corresponding to each of the 17 types. A Gem is consumed when the Pokémon holding it uses a damaging attack that matches the Gem's type; the attack's power is boosted by 50%. The Gem will not be consumed if the attack misses." -Bulbapedia

    Gems are not used commonly in BW2, but im not too sure why. The main ones that see any use are the Normal Gem (to power up Explosion), and Flying Gem (to power up Acrobatics). Terrakoin is also sometimes seen carrying a Rock Gem. However, most players don't even concider Gems when teambuliding. The 50% boost is eqivelant to a Choice Band boost, without the move restricting effect. These boosts stack with moves such as Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and can be used to bluff Choice Items.

    Most players will argue that items like Life Orb, Leftovers, Or even Expert Belt are more reliable. But if your prediction skills are above average or if you are looking to effectively surprise your opponent then Gems might just be what you have been looking for.

    There are 2 main ways to utilize Gems-
    1). To power up STAB moves
    2). To power up coverage moves

    Usually Mons that are looking to power up a STAB move are already powerful and are looking to muscle past a counter so they can sweep. Mons that power up coverage moves are often looking to wallbreak so a teammate can sweep. Here are Examples of both:

    [​IMG]
    @ Fight Gem
    252Att 252Spe 4HP
    Adament Nature
    ~Superpower
    ~Outrage/Dragon Claw
    ~Sub
    ~Swords Dance

    Dragon+Fighting have perfect coverage. Most opponents will switch a steel into Hax, so you are free to hit them with a +1 Superpower from behind a Sub.

    252Atk Fight Gem +2 Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Skarmory: 80% - 94%

    252Atk Fight Gem Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Jirachi: 58% - 68%

    252Atk Fight Gem Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Scizor: 68% - 80%

    252Atk Fight Gem Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Genesect: 86% - 102%

    Make sure you hit Genesect on the switch so it doesnt U-Turn out. Heres another one:

    [​IMG]
    @Earth Gem
    252Att 252Spe 4Hp
    Jolly
    ~Eq
    ~Memento
    ~Toxic
    ~Stone Edge/Night Slash

    As Strong (or as weak) as CB Dugtrio when using Eq, but better because its not massive setup bait.

    And finally:

    [​IMG]
    @Ice Gem
    252Att 252HP 4Spe
    Adament
    Iron Fist
    ~Sub
    ~Focus Punch
    ~Ice Punch
    ~Mach Punch/Payback

    Ice Gem lets you Beat Gliscor, Landerous-T, Dragonite (through Multiscale), and OHKO Latias.

    252Atk Ice Gem Ice Punch vs 252HP/252Def Gliscor (+Def): 119% - 141%

    252Atk Ice Gem -1 Ice Punch vs 252HP/252Def Landorus-T: 92% - 108%

    252Atk Ice Gem Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Multiscale Dragonite (Neutral): 109% - 129% (356 - 420 HP)

    252Atk Ice Gem Ice Punch vs 252HP/0Def Latias: 102% - 120%

    As you can see, Gems might just have uses on Mons that no one has thought of yet. Lets see what you can come up with!

    And just for shits and grins:

    0SpAtk Fire Gem Garchomp Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Skarmory: 95% - 112%
  2. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I think that most experienced players will already know the value of the Gems, and just quite how useful they can be. Gems can be used to either bluff items such as Scarfs or E-Belts, which is one appeal, and then come out with a boosted attack for a surprise KO. I quite like using Gems for specific threats, for example if an attack on one of your pokes really needs to OHKO something, but you lack the straight up power to do so, and can't afford to run Specs or a Band, then a Gem can really help out.

    The other use of Gems, although a lot less common, is on Pokes with Unburden or Acrobatics. By using the Gem to boost an attack, it gets used up leaving the Poke with no item. In the case of Unburden speed will be increased exponentially, and for Acrobatics the power is doubled. We all know however effective an Acrobat Gliscor can be.
  3. nygerman

    nygerman

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    No, gems are not reliable. They are one shots and even experienced players do not predict perfectly with them.

    Experienced players usually will not use pokemon such as Alakazam if they're serious even if Alakazam is OU. The examples you have given do not prove gems' worth.
    I don't think anyone ever used Sub Haxorus. It will be better to use double dance haxorus as +2 Outrage LO Lum berry Outrage will be a clean 2HKO on Skarmory. +1 Earthquake KOes Jirachi while +2 earthquake KOes Scizor. I wouldn't rely on predicting a gensect switch, but an unboosted Earthquake will do enough damage to Genesect.

    It doesn't matter if Dragon Fighting has perfect coverage as Neatral coverage with STAB and key super effective hits are what really matter.

    Feraligator is never used and anyways it should have superpower over return anyways and one pokemon isn't going to make water gem worth it.

    No one uses conkedurr and toxic/flame orb is much more effective.

    Everyone runs Focus Sash Dugtrio for reversal. Dugtrio has memento, so it can't be set up fodder.
  4. yee

    yee
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    The Gems are easily the most underrated items IMO and right on par with Expert Belt as "good alternate item to run on an attacker". Very easy to overlook when building teams and facing an opponent- Dragon gems work on all kinds of Dragons and if you need just a bit more amp on your STAB attack / main coverage move you have Choice Band / Specs power. Id imagine Fire / Water gems are the easiest ones to use if you want something fun on your Rain / Sun team and like E Belt Tar caught people last gen a Gem Tar could work now- seal the OHKO on Ferro.
  5. nygerman

    nygerman

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    Expert Belt is actually reliable on pokemon that hit many pokemon super effective such as Abomasnow (Ice, Grass, Ground, Fire) and Genesect (Bug, Fire, Electric, Ice), but Gems should only be used for a particular occasion. Unburden and Acrobat is one of those, but no pokemon can actually abuse gems.

    The only successful case a gem used was by a Deoxy fire gem. That was to kill Scizor and 2HKO Ferrothorn, but that was only to boost for particular cases since Deoxy will run into those alot and Deoxy is a suicide lead, not meant to last(just like gems).
  6. Sharpteeth

    Sharpteeth

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    This is actually one of the best use of Gems I've found:

    Sandslash @ Ground Gem
    Jolly
    Sand Rush

    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Swords Dance
    Earthquake
    Shadow Claw
    Rapid Spin

    Strategy is simple, switch it in against something slow and weak (Forretress, Deoxys-D) and Sword Dance up. Here's some calcs.

    +2 vs Standard Jellicent: (94.54 - 111.16%) Guaranteed OHKO with SR.
    +2 vs Gengar: (146.56 - 173.28%) Guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Burned vs Sableye: (73.35 - 86.84%) Ok, you lose there, unless you put in around 15% prior damage.
    +2 vs Dusclops: (71.83 - 84.5%) Guaranteed 2HKO

    You get the idea. Apart from Sableye who survives thanks to Priority Will-o-Wisp, every Ghost type loses. Which means that, assuming Sand is up and with 1 Sword Dance, you can guarantee a spin. Either switch-in, SD, then Rapid Spin or kill their spinblocker, *then* Rapid Spin.

    After Spinning, you're still left with something that outspeeds everything up to Scarf Mienshao, with fairly good bulk, power and STAB Earthquake.
  7. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    It sounds like you're hating just to hate. Yes +1 Eq eliminates Jirachi, but Haxorous is way too slow to be using Dragon Dance. Sub gives it a way to wallbreak and ease prediction, and that is much more effective then using Dragon Dance. Outrage has great neutral coverage and Superpower provides key hits, so im not sure what you are trying to say.

    There was actually a player trolling the latter not too long ago with Feraligatr, and it was pretty damn effective.

    Care to explain how Flame/Toxic Orb are more effective with a Sub? And it doesn't matter if people dont use Conkeldurr, he is still a great Pokemon, made even better since it got Ice Punch in BW2.

    "Everyone" uses Focus Sash Dugtrio to kill Ttar and not be locked in. My set does the same thing except it is not reliant on hazards not being up. Earth Gem is wayyyyyyyyy more effective in killing Jirachi and Tentacruel too.
  8. nygerman

    nygerman

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    It's called double dance where you have sword dance and DD. That's a wall breaker. Haxorus is too weak even with a sub. Sword Dance for walls and DD for offensive teams.

    Sub doesn't really really work for a pokemon that really slow. Toxic orb Conkedurr is basically Conkeldur with a last rainbow gem.

    One player does not make feraligator usable. Look at competitive tournaments, no one uses Feraligator
  9. yee

    yee
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    Look deeper at competitive tournaments, I saw like 4 DD Dragon Gem Salamence in wcop (now you can use it with Moxie + Outrage) and in testing with one of my teammates Feraligator was on a team for a long while (it was great but not optimal for the team).
  10. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    It doesn't sound like he's hating just to hate at all. He brings up a lot of valid points.

    I don't even understand saying that Haxorus is too slow for DD. Like, what? That's possibly his best set, and two DD sets are listed in his analysis. Getting to +1 Attack and Speed plus Life Orb or Lum Berry to stop status is much more useful than a one time Superpower boost. He just doesn't need it, then has to go the rest of the match without an item. There was no real, great reason to run the gem, as was stated by nygerman.

    There was ONE player "trolling the ladder" with Feraligatr. ONE. ._.

    Toxic Orb isn't good on Conk, but Burn Orb for the guts boost is great, and a gem is still outclassed by Life Orb or Lefties. I mean, with Ice Punch Gliscor is hardly a problem. And Guts boosted Ice Punch OHKOs Gliscor and gives you a permanent boost. Ice Gem Conk is silly.

    Sash Dugtrio is still more useful. Also, Ground Gem EQ still isn't an OHKO, and is 56.25% chance with SR damage. Living that hit when hazards aren't up is better. Also, Memento prevents you from being set up fodder, as was said. (not that I endorse Dugtrio as a good Pokémon).

    However, certainly there are instances where a Gem can be very useful for that one important KO.
  11. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    I must say I do quite like that set. While it sort of has its one sole purpose, it definitely does the job well. You might just want to include exactly the sets that you're assuming the Ghosts to be running, as well as a comparison with and without the Ground Gem, just so that everyone can see exactly how useful it is.

    EDIT:
    You're entirely right in what you say, all of the mons and sets in the OP have much superior sets, with items that suit much better than gems. Although, as evidenced by Sharpteeth's Sandslash, Gems function more on things that have a much more specific role, rather than just trying to take on the metagame. Its these mons that fill the more niche roles that Gems really benefit. Aside from Flying Gem Gliscor the only other Gem you'll often see on a high usage OU mon is Rock Gem on Terrakion with the SubSD set.
  12. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Problem is that offensive teams are hurt more by Sub then by DD. My Haxorous is only too weak if you mispredict (i.e Subbing as they bring in a Hippowodon or something). Otherwise it has plenty of power.

    Sub works on slow, powerful Pokemon, especially since Conk can force a switch with the threat of Mach Punch.

    No one uses him because they havent thought of Water Gem ^_^. But really, he might not be the best choice, but he does have advantages over other sweepers and im sure he appeals so someone. I may take him out of the OP

    Life Orb doesnt go well with Sub, and Leftovers Conk fails to OHKO all of the threats listed in the OP.

    And as for whoever said that Flame Orb Conk OHKO's Gliscor, you obviously have never been stalled by Protect. The indirect damage bulids up FAST, and then you have to predict if they will switch out or not.
  13. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    Agreed. That Sandslash is very interesting. The idea of the thread is great, and I'm not knocking gems, but the OP's sets leave a lot to be desired.

    On a side not, Rock Gem Terrakion is such a pro; it's the only Terrakion I use. Absolutely love it. That OHKO on Gliscor is wonderful.

    EDIT:

    @Boondocker: If that's your argument against Flame Orb Conk, then it seems even sillier to run an Ice Gem that you're only going to use to break a Sub. Also, after just one Bulk Up you always break Gliscor's Sub with Drain Punch. Gliscor is just going to get set up on trying to stall you out, and with Flame Orb you prevent the Gliscors that run Toxic from Toxic-ing you and forcing you out in addition to the boost, as opposed to having no item and being sad.
  14. bubbly

    bubbly

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    Well...there is Fighting Gem Deoxys-D. Easily OHKO's non-Chople Tar and does a heck of a lot of damage to things like Heatran and Genesect. I feel like Rock Gem Terrakion is inferior to SalacSD Terra in this metagame, because with Breloom and Keldeo everywhere nowhere near as many people are using Gliscor / Slowbro, but everyone is still using Scarf Gene / Thundurus, Tornadus, Latios, Starmie and what have you.

    Also, what the heck is this about no one good using Feraligatr? The standard SD Torrent sweeper is scarily good in Rain. A lot of people, including myself, have used it successfully; Bri even got a Feraligatr based team to #1.
  15. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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  16. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    For every possible use of a Gem, it needs to justify: why not a Life Orb, or a Plate for that matter? Life Orb does more damage if you get two hits with the move in question, and boosts the rest of your moves as well. The Plates avoid the HP loss and therefore similarly work as a bluff, and on two hits with the chosen move, do only slightly less damage than with a Gem and retain the item for later attacks as well. There are definitely situations where a Gem would be more valuable, and we should not forget them in those situations, but there's no sense in using one unless it's specifically one of those times, and therefore worth giving up an item for every other attack you'll make in the fight.
  17. Lork

    Lork

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    moxie + outrage + dragon gem actually sounds epic.
  18. Queen of Randoms

    Queen of Randoms I'm So Crown
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    Who's using Sub? You are misguided in thinking that Conk commonly uses Sub for anything other than SubPunch sets.

    And really it doesn't matter if Conk OHKO's Gliscor:

    252 Atk Conkeldurr (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/184 Def Gliscor (+Def) : 70.06% - 82.49% (2 hits to KO)

    Odds are Gliscor has to Protect, so you Bulk Up. If he has enough to Sub, you can Ice Punch him. Even if he Protects, if he stops stalling you to Toxic you (which is the only way he's taking down Conk) you not only get your Guts boost, but Gliscor is going to die.

    The ability to OHKO Latios is the only mildly interesting bit, but if Latios comes in on the Ice Punch (which he would have to because Conk doesn't stay in on Latios and live), the combination of SR, Ice Punch, and Mach Punch kills him even with the Lefties set. GG Latios coming in on Guts boosted or Life Orb Ice Punch (87.5% of the time for Life Orb, which is 100% with SR, and every single time when Guts boosted, as opposed to the chance you predict wrong and waste your Ice Gem).
  19. Alexander.

    Alexander.

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    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Rock Gem
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute / Rock Polish
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    Standard but always op. A great pokemon in hyper offense team because it can destroy any physical wall (Skarmory, Gliscor, Slowbro mainly) with stone edge boosted from sword dance and rock gem. OP. I haven't another comments for this lol

    Nice thread however, the gems are usefull for baitkilling in current metagame I guess
  20. Camisado

    Camisado

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    Isn't HP Fire+Fire Gem Deo D getting a lot of hype atm?
  21. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    HP Fire + Fire Gem Deo-D is getting hype because he can cleanly OHKO Scizor and Forretress (with rocks obv, sturdy); Electric Gem + T-bolt fries Starmie; Psycho Boost destroys Tentacruel regardless of item - so you can tailor your Deo-D to become a pretty effective lure.

    I personally hate the Fight Gem + Superpower version more because I run CB Ttar, but yes, Deo-D is a mon that works great with gem-items

    [​IMG]@ [​IMG] / [​IMG]
    48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
    Timid Nature
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Hidden Power Fire / Thunderbolt
    ~ Psycho Boost / Taunt / Recover

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    162 HP / 94 AtK / 252 Spe
    Jolly / Timid Nature
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Superpower / Low Kick
    ~ Taunt / Recover / Pyscho Boost

    94 AtK EVs OHKO 252/0 T-tar with no need for hazards. 184 EVs if you decide to roll with Timid for Psycho Boost. You can shift some speed EVs around, mainly to SpA so you can beef up Psycho Boost a little if you do decide to use it.

    EDIT: As PenguinX pointed out Low Lick can be used as it gets the same OHKO on T-tar, which is pretty cool since defense drops are yuck.

    Gems, gems are truly outrageous. Truly truly outrageous.
  22. peng

    peng

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    I personally prefer Low Kick over Superpower, as its 100 - 120 base power anyway against basically every relevant Pokemon and means you have a better chance of getting up hazards after taking out Tyranitar. -1 Def Deoxys-D is forced out by so much stuff and I found it really difficult to even get up any hazards whatsoever after taking out Tyranitar.

    Definitely one of my favourite sets at the moment.
  23. xenu

    xenu aaeuaueu
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    gems, imo, work best when you bluff a choice item in order to maximize the impact of the boosted move on the opponent's switch-in, sometimes even cleanly KOing supposed counters of the choiced versions (with adequate prediction). even though gems may seem like inferior one-time choice specs/bands, the extra coverage you get from not being locked into one move severely limits the opponent's ability to switch in. that's why gems work best on expected scarfers (like genesect) and to a lesser extent on expected choice band/specs users, and that one switch-in you pick off with a 50% boosted move can often turn the tide of a game in your favor.
  24. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Honestly, Expert Belt is a better option at bluffing choice items (particularly scarf) unless you desperately need the added boost to OHKO certain switch ins.
  25. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    It works. Dragon Gem allows DD Mence to take on stuff that would otherwise beat it 1 on 1.

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