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Gen 5 offensive team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by dan1134, Mar 5, 2011.

  1. dan1134

    dan1134

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Introduction:

    This is my first post at Smogon, although I have been reading the forums for several years. I played 4th Gen on and off, and I just recently started playing 5th Gen. I tried a stall team, but it was ineffective and I didn't really like it. This team has had much more success, and it peaked at 1277 on the Smogon server. That's certainly not incredible, but it's the best any of my teams have ever done. I'm posting the team here because I think there are some areas that could be improved with the help of more experienced people.

    Team Building Process:

    [​IMG]
    I wanted to build this team around a pokemon that I like, so I chose one of my favorites from 5th gen, Krookodile. I decided to use a choice scarf set because it seemed to be the most effective option.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Next, I looked for a pokemon that would benefit from having ghost and psychic types removed. I picked bulk up Conkeldurr.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Since my first two pokemon were physical attackers, I needed a special attacker. One special attacker who works well with Conkeldurr is Volcarona, because Conkeldurr can remove special walls like Blissey in order for it to sweep.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I knew that if I was using Volcarona, I would need a rapid spinner. I picked Starmie because it would allow me to keep the offensive theme. It also attracts pokemon that Volcarona can set up on, like Ferrothorn.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I had heard that para-shuffler Dragonite was a very good pokemon. I decided to try it because my sweepers seemed like they would benefit from paralysis support.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Finally, I wanted a stealth rock user, as well as wish support. I decided to use Jirachi, because it gave me both those things. It also gave me some useful resistances thanks to its steel typing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now, even though I originally built the team with Krookodile in mind, it just wasn't working that well. I replaced him with a Quagsire because it seemed to beat most of my threats.

    The Team:
    (Changes in Bold)
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)

    - Wish
    - U-turn
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Punch

    Jirachi is my stealth rocker and wish supporter. I often lead with it to get rocks up as early as possible and then u-turn out. Wish is there to heal other pokemon or to get volcarona in when there are stealth rocks up. This is usually my counter to dragons like Latios, which is why I run ice punch. I switch it in on draco meteors aimed at my conkeldurr or dragonite and proceed to ice punch or u-turn if I think they are going to switch. I have switched to a more specially based EV spread, suggegsted by LK, but I may add a little bit more physical bulk so it can take on gliscor better. This pokemon has been working well for me, but I do think that it can be improved.

    [​IMG]
    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Stone Edge

    This is the standard Conkeldurr set. Bulk up to raise its already high attack as well as its defense, allowing it to take some hits. Drain punch is great for recovering health and mach punch finishes off weakened pokemon that are faster. I run stone edge over payback because I have Krookodile to take care of ghosts. Also, stone edge comes in handy for hitting things like Gyrados that think they can come in for free. One thing I like to do is use stone edge when I predict they are going to switch in something like Tornadus. Of course, that's when stone edge always seems to miss. Conkeldurr is very effective when Dragonite has paralyzed a good number of my opponents pokemon. Being able to move first and use drain punch helps a lot because I can heal before they attack me. This pokemon also works well with Krookodile because Krookodile can remove the ghost and psychic pokemon, such as Reuniclus, that would stop Conkeldurr. So far, he has worked very well for my team.

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rapid Spin

    Starmie is my rapid spinner and special attacker. I needed a rapid spinner so that Volcarona could be effective. I use the standard rapid spin set except with three attacking moves. I rarely find myself in a position where I could safely use recover with Starmie, so it is more helpful to have as much coverage as possible. Ice beam helps kill dragons, as well as grass types like Breloom. Thunderbolt is for bulky waters, who my team have some problems with. Hydro pump is for the most power possible. So far, Starmie has been pretty average. It usually never does much more than clear the entry hazards, but there are times when its type coverage comes in handy. It works very well with Volcarona, clearing the rocks that cripple it. Starmie also lures out Ferrothorn, which Volcarona can set up on. Because Starmie has been ineffective at times, I have considered switching it for something like rapid spin Cloyster, which would be able to take hits much easier. I am trying life orb on Starmie because it needed more power, and it wasn't really taking any hits even with leftovers.

    [​IMG]

    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Ability: Multi-Scale
    EVs: 244 HP / 252 SDef / 12 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost
    - Thunder Wave
    - Substitute

    This pokemon has been amazing. So many people are unprepared for it, especially at the lower levels. In fact, it beats so many pokemon that I often lead with it. Multi-scale is what makes it so amazing. When it is at full health, it can easily take a hit and paralyze the opponent. From there, I roost back to full health. I love when I roost to full health when my opponent uses an ice attack and watching it do pitiful amounts of damage. I usually use roost and substitute until my opponent's paralysis kicks in. Then, once I have a sub up, I start shuffling their team with dragon tail. Obviously, this works best when stealth rocks are up. The more pokemon I can paralyze with this, the easier time I will have sweeping later on. Dragonite has been simply amazing for me, and it has won me at least ten battles all by itself from ragequits by players who weren't prepared for it.
    [​IMG]
    Quagsire
    @ Leftovers Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Recover
    - Yawn
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall


    This Quagsire replaced Krookodile because Krookodile just wasn't working that well for me. Unaware Quagsire beats many of the threats who previously gave my team problems, like Blazikin, Cloyster, and Excadrill. Recover is obvious-it's a great move for healing. I use yawn so that I can force out setup pokemon who Quagsire can't damage very well, like Reuniclus. Earthquake is for steels, and for other pokemon like Blazikin. Waterfall is for STAB and to hit most pokemon for at least neutral damage. I have also considered ice beam in order to hit dragons, but it wouldn't do much damage off his special attack. The EVs and nature may not be the best. I wanted him to take both physical and special attacks, so I gave him Careful and maxed out his defense EVs. This probably isn't the best spread though, so help with it would be appreciated.

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Butterfly Dance
    - Flame Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hidden Power [Rock]

    Volcarona is another pokemon that has worked very well for me. It can come in on many special attackers, as well as some weak physical ones, and set up with butterfly dance. After just one butterfly dance, it outspeeds most pokemon and can kill them with flame dance or bug buzz. I use flame dance because I don't like fire blast's accuracy. The additional special attack boosts are also welcome. STAB bug buzz is also very powerful and is usually used on grass, psychic, and bulky water pokemon. I recently switched hidden power ground to hidden power rock. I did this in order to hit things like Gyarados that like to switch in on me. I'm not completely sure if it will be better than ground, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on which one is better. Volcarona has good synergy with the rest of my team, especially Starmie. Starmie spins away the rocks that Volcarona hates. It also lures out Ferrothorn, which Volcarona can set up on. I use lum berry partly because of the Ferrothorn who stay in on Volcarona and thunder wave it while it butterfly dances. I also use it because I have noticed that a lot of people try to beat Volcarona by statusing it. However, I am currently testing leftovers because it has been suggested by several people. Volcarona has worked very well for me, often sweeping my opponents team, or at least taking out one or two members. I have considered using a bulky or chestorest set, but the one I use now has been very effective, so I haven't changed it.


    Conclusion:
    Well, that's my team. I tried to follow all the rules in my post, but if I did anything wrong then let me know. This team has been very fun to play with, but it can definitely improve. A few pokemon that have given me problems are Breloom, Garchomp, Haxorus, Cloyster, Excadrill, Reuniclus, and Blazikin. Hopefully, my addition of Quagsire will help to beat most of those threats. All advice on this team is appreciated.
  2. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Hi,

    Nice team. You may want to try EQ Spiral on Crocodile dude. Could help, and with a Scarf its gonna take something speedy to revenge you. I really think that lefties would help better for Urugumosu. Lum Berry will only help you once, lefties will help you heaps.

    If those are your threats you could try running a CS Mamoswine. I run it to great sucess. It gets Breloom, Garchomp and Haxorus for you, and if by some luck you outspeed Blaziken a +1 it can handle that aswell.
  3. dan1134

    dan1134

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Thanks for the advice. I used to use EQ spiral, but I switched to intimidate because I rarely find myself in a position where it can get more than one kill at a time. Whenever I kill something with it my opponent brings in something that resists the attack I used.

    I will try leftovers on Volcarona, but I will lose some of my ability to set up on Ferrothorn.

    Those are a few of my threats. I will try to add more as I find them. Mamoswine seems like it might work, do you suggest using it over Krookodile?
  4. ShadowSpeedRider89

    ShadowSpeedRider89

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Using Mamoswine over Krookodile will require you to change some other Pokemon around as well - you basically hand yourself another Fire Weakness without losing the Water Weakness you had from before.

    If you want to make Krookodile a better revenge killer while giving Moxie (Earthquake Spiral) another go, try giving it a Jolly Nature with the same EV spread. You'll have higher starting speed and will be able to get more attack boosts with each K.O. It may solve your problem of only being able to get one K.O with it during a battle, depending on the move you're locked into.

    Also...Hardy Nature on Volcarona? Try out Timid - it gives you a boost to Volcarona's already nice speed while reducing its attack (a stat you hardly use.) Leftovers, I've found, is superior to the Lum Berry on Butterfly Dance Volcarona - it allows Volcarona to function as a hyper-offensive, speedy special-tank, sometimes even when Paralyzed.

    Other than that, the team seems fairly solid. Would you mind if I tried it out?
  5. dan1134

    dan1134

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Woops, I guess I forgot to set Volcarona's nature when I made the team. I am trying leftovers on it now, but so far I haven't noticed much of a difference. I also tried your suggestion on Krookodile. Again, I didn't see much of a difference in the five or so games I played, but I will continue to test it. I'm probably not going to switch him for Mamoswine though.

    My team has actually been losing a lot recently, often due to set up sweepers. I am considering replacing Krookodile with unaware Quagsire, but that would give me two water types. Is Quagsire a good idea for my team?

    Also, go ahead and use this team, it's find with me.
  6. V0x

    V0x Glycine G
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,789
    I think a Quagsire would be good for your team synergy wise. After stockpiling, opponents, in my experience, will want to use grass moves to take it down. We also see that many grass moves are special: solar beam, energy ball, grass knot, etc. Taking these premises, you have a very easy switch in to Volcarona, as it has higher special defense than defense and 4x resists. Then, you can butterfly dance or proceed to attack. You also have two other grass resists on your team. I don't find two water types as big problem for you.

    Another thing worth noting is the bulky Volcarona. Since you will be boosting Sp. attack, you needn't necessarily max it out. I myself am still tinkering with a spread, so I cant help you out there.

    That's all I can really help you with because i don't have experience with the other stuff. Good luck.
  7. Precipice

    Precipice Thats bull.
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    225
    I think quagsire is a great option for your team, it can absorb the water attacks which threaten Volcarona, it also takes Ice hits well and provides good coverage for dragonite. It can take any electric attacks aimed at Starmie, which is vital if you want to Rapid Spin rocks for Volc. You say you're having trouble with set up sweepers? Quagsire deals with that too, by trapping them into an encore. I would suggest this set:

    Quagsire@Leftovers ~ Jabu Jabu
    Nature:Careful
    Ability:Water Absorb
    252HP/56Def/200SpD
    -Recover
    -Ice Punch
    -Encore
    -Earthquake

    Also, you shouldn't be having problems with like likes of Excadrill and Cloyster if you have roobushin on your team, just switch him in to them so they're forced to switch out or die from mach punch.

    I know its not hugely common, it is more so than gen4, but Sun sweepers really threaten your team. Pokemon such as Chlorphyll/Growth Venasaur rip through your team with relative ease if
  8. dan1134

    dan1134

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    OK, thanks guys. I think I am going to try Quagsire over Krookodile. The set I am thinking of running is:

    Quagsire@Leftovers
    Nature:Careful
    Ability:Unaware
    252HP/252Def/4SpD
    -Recover
    -Stockpile
    -Earthquake
    -Ice Punch

    I will be using it to switch in on set up sweepers, especially dragons, and hopefully kill them. I used the EV spread from the analysis page. Also, I am using stockpile because it seems like it can make Quagsire almost unkillable, but I may end up switching it with yawn or toxic. Do you think this set will work well?

    I will look into a more bulky set for Volcarona, I think that might work better.
  9. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,529
    Quagsire does pitiful damage without Curse so you need either Yawn to cause more hazard damage or Toxic to wear them down bar none.

    BTW ShadowRider, with Thick Fat Mamoswine has a Fire neutrality. I'm not positive if that ability has been released yet though.

    I agree that Starmie is required to benefit Volcarona, but have you considered a support version? Starmie without LO or Specs doesn't do enough damage so I suggest adding in Reflect over Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Reflect will give Volcarona a MUCH easier time setting up, and you can opt for Light Clay if you want 8 turns instead of 5. Reflect also makes Dragonite and Conkeldurr's jobs much easier.

    I agree that Jirachi should be primarily specially defensive. Draco Meteors are a bigger threat than Outrage since most players don't use Outrage until end game when Steels are gone.
  10. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    If you want a viable Quagsire it means you almost must run a Curse set. Boosting your defenses while the opponent's attack gets weaker is great, and it also helps as Butterfly dude can take the special hits.
  11. afterburn

    afterburn Villain of some untold story
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Threats
    1. [​IMG] Rock Polish Landorus
    2. [​IMG] Calm Mind Reuniclus
    3. [​IMG] Bulk Up Conkeldurr

    Hey dan1134, cool team, but there are a few problematic threats the team needs help with. Although it doesn't get a bunch of opportunities to set-up, Rock Polish Landorus can set-up on Krookodile's Earthquake or force Jirachi out to grab a Rock Polish and sweep your team with a little prior damage. The thing is, RP Landorus is backed up by Sandstorm more often than not, and this will boost its Earthquake and Stone Edge, courtesy of its ability Sand Power. After a Rock Polish it will outspeed the entire team, and with Sand Power and Life Orb backing it up, it will sweep you outright with a little prior damage.

    Calm Mind Reuniclus also doesn't get too many opportunities, but it can set-up on Jirachi (only fearing an Ice Punch Freeze) and also force Conkeldurr out to get in that crucial Calm Mind. With a Calm Mind under its belt it will be able to manage a 2HKO on pretty much every member of the team with boosted Psychic / Focus Blast, and be able t shrug off damage with Recover, and get in a few more boosts if you threaten it with Special Attacks. Now, you say Krookodile is able to handle Reuniclus; this is not the case. Say Roobushin is facing Reuniclus, and you switch out to Krookodile as Reuniclus Calm Minds. Krookodile will be doing 51.4% - 60.8% with Crunch to 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Reuniclus who will in return OHKO back with Focus Blast, and Recover of the damage when the opportunity arises.

    Finally, Bulk Up Conkeldurr is also a threat to your team. It can set-up on Jirachi, or Krookodile's Crunch, Pursuit, or Stone Edge to get in a Bulk Up. After a Bulk Up Conkeldurr will become difficult to take down as none of the members will be able to OHKO it, while it will enjoy putting the hurt on them with Drain Punch and sapping some health back. Those that are resistant to its Drain Punch will not like boosted Stone Edge to the face (Dragonite, Starmie, Volcarona), especially since they don't have a way to KO Conkeldurr. The funny thing is, Bulk Up Conkeldurr + Calm Mind Reuniclus are often paired together to form a formidable offensive duo, and if you face a team utilizing this combo, you could be in a world of pain.

    Solutions:

    • Solution A: Psychic + Life Orb on Starmie, Alternate Jirachi set
    Psychic and Life Orb Starmie is a pretty simple change, but it does help you take on Conkeldurr easier and hit for upwards 70% damage which is solid, but I'll give you a better solution to it later on. Thunderbolt isn't too necessary on Starmie, and I think Psychic will do better, since maiming Conkeldurr is always nice, and the only thing you'll want to use Thunderbolt against that your other moves don't hit are Jellicent. Life Orb is basically so you can hit harder given Starmie's so-so Special Attack stat, and you have Jirachi's Wish to support it anyway. I'd like for you to try 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe a Careful nature with Fire Punch / Body Slam / Iron Head over U-turn / Stealth Rock / Ice Punch. This Jirachi can reliably take on Calm Mind Reuniclus and take it out with Flinch + Paralysis while staying healthy via wish. With Body Slam's high Paralysis rate, Reuniclus will find itself paralyzed and unable to move 25% of the time, and to that the secondary effect of Iron Head to flinch 60% of the time, and Reuniclus won't be doing much 85% of the time (provided it's paralyzed by Body Slam), meaning it will go down to a combination of Iron Head + Body Slam + Wish. Latios, and Latias are handled in a similar fashion, with Jirachi's Special Bulk backing it up against them. Fire Punch is there so Nattorei, Scizor, and Forretress don't use you for set-up.

    • Solution B: Skarmory over Dragonite
    So far we have Reuniclus covered, so we need a better check to Conkeldurr and a check to Rock Polish Landorus. Skarmory fits the bill really well, being able to take on Conkeldurr with its sky high defense, pHaze it, and make it eat residual damage from the entry hazards Skarmory sets up, making it easier to handle. Landorus is handled in a similar way; It fails to do enough damage to Skarmory, while Skarmory can pHaze it or hit it with Brave Bird. Basically, as long as Skarmory is in the battle, Conkeldurr or Rock Polish Landorus won't be getting past your team any time soon. Spikes will also aid Volcarona in sweeping, as it will make it easier to KO foes such as a full HP Tyranitar with Bug Buzz, and other Pokemon who aren't OHKOed straight up. Stealth Rock on Skarmory is also good, since Jirachi freed its moveslot of Stealth Rock.
    • Solution C: Choice Scarf Garchomp over Krookodile
    Previously, your team was a little weak to Butterfly Dance Volcarona. It could just force Jirachi out and set-up. If Dragonite was below 70% health (which I could imagine happening late game), it would get KOed by +1 Hidden Power Rock and would be unable to cripple it with Thunderwave so Krookodile could revenge with Stone Edge. With Skarmory, Volcarona becomes more of a problem, since Krookodile is unable to revenge it with Stone Edge without it becoming paralyzed, further more, it's unable to outspeed and revenge threats like +1 Haxorus, Scarf Sazandora, and +1 Salamence, who can outspeed this entire team and sit above the 95 Speed stat bencmark, while Krookodile sits at 92. To scrape away all these issues, Choice Scarf Garchomp will be beneficial to the team. Garchomp can outspeed the aforementioned threats and threaten a KO with its Dragon- type attacks. Furthermore, Volcarona is still outsped after a Buttefly Dance and KOed by Stone Edge. Garchomp also lures in Steel- types such as Skarmory, Bronzong, Nattorei, Forretress, and gives a free opportunity for Volcarona to come in set up, and begin its assault on the opposition.

    Optional Changes:

    I think you should go for Payback over Stone Edge on Conkeldurr. Jellicent coming in to wall your attacks is quite annoying, and hitting it with Payback is great, especially if its stupid enough to burn you with Scald and activate Guts. I also think you should look over ChestoRest Volcarona as it may prove beneficial to your team. Your team has Offensive teams covered pretty well, not as well as more defensive teams (although Conkeldurr + Starmie does good vs stall) and this is why I think you can look into Chesto Rest Volcarona. Works much like ChestoRest Kingdra last generation; Get in on a weak Special Attack and set-up. Even Jellicent will be set-up on; you get multiple Butterfly Dances, and when low at health, Rest of the damage and prepare to wreck havoc. If you want more information on the set check here and the analysis itself.

    Movesets:

    Specially Defensive Jirachi (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam / Thunder Wave
    - Fire Punch / U-turn
    - Wish
    ---


    Skarmory (open)
    [​IMG]
    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind / Brave Bird
    ---


    Choice Scarf Garchomp (open)
    [​IMG]
    Garchomp (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Stone Edge
    - Dragon Claw / Fire Blast / Aqua Tail
    ---


    So to summarize:
    • Psychic > Thunderbolt on Starmie, Alternative Jirachi Spread
    • Skarmory > Bulky Dragonite
    • Scarf Garchomp > Scarf Krookodile

    GL
  12. tang

    tang

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18
    on krookodile, you want jolly not timid, timid drops atk ;)
  13. dan1134

    dan1134

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5
    Wow, thanks for all the help. I just realized that ice punch is illegal with unaware, so I will have to change my quaqsire set. I will try a curse set and one with yawn in place of curse.

    LK - Thanks for all the advice. I will try out your suggestions as soon as I have tested Quagsire. However, doesn't Quagsire handle all of those threats you listed?

    tang - Yeah, I definitely meant jolly, but it doesn't really matter because I'm getting rid of Krookodile.

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