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Gen-NEXT development thread

Discussion in 'Pet Mods' started by Zarel, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Don't worry - the latest change reverts the Drain Punch changes.

    The Rotom formes already receive a secondary move (H: Heat Wave, F: Frost Breath, C: Magical Leaf, S: Hurricane, W: BubbleBeam). I guess I could give them another one... Rotom-F with Milk Drink sounds so wonderful and flavorful, I really like this idea.

    Katakiri, that's a very good idea. Thematically, Keen Eye doesn't really suggest that sort of mechanic, though, and a lot of already-strong pokemon get Unnerve.

    Maybe it would make sense for a different ability... White Smoke?
  2. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Yeah I could see that and it could work thematically. Heatmor would need a significant moveset tweak to make any use of it but Torkoal would definitely get a new lease on life with immunity to Earthquake or Stone Edge (or both!)
    I can throw out a few more thematic suggestions for the mechanic. Most of these have the same reasoning I used for Keen Eye.

    Quick Feet
    Rivalry (How dare you have the same moves as me!)
    Analytic
    Frisk (Japanese: おみとおし Unobstructed Sight)
    Telepathy
    Forewarn

    The last...four abilities (wow) are inadvisable without a few size-able movepool additions to make the Pokemon useful outside of like Gardevoir stopping Shadow Ball (which is not worth trading Trace at all) and Porgyon2 blocking Toxic. Quick Feet and Rivalry on the other hand do have a few Pokemon that could make use of it.
    Going the Rivalry route, Nidoqueen becomes a fantastic Stealth Rocker and can block Earthquakes. It's like the perfect check to Landorus-T & Gliscor as well.
    Even Quick Feet Granbull would be extremely cute with it's way-too-large physical movepool letting it be tailored to wall just about any physical sweeper. Terrakion being Terrakion? Slap CC & Stone Edge on Granbull. Dragonite? Give it Outrage and Superpower. Want to enrage a Gliscor? EQ, Toxic, and Ice Fang. Ice Fang it's too much but it's funny to me.

    But I'm rambling now so I'll stop myself.
  3. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Saw Ambipom gets sketch.

    Will not play this meta with fake out + extremespeed ambipom... brb guaranteed revenger to every non rock non steel type

    edit: The 1.6x accuracy buff to zoom lens seems like more than just a bit much... Victory star is now broken in doubles with a 1.5x accuracy boost for your partner...

    For reference a 50% accurate move becomes 80% accurate.. So dynamic punch + sub on any remotely fast user.. also I haven't even started on hypnosis and sleep powder.
  4. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Hmm, Rivalry might make Haxorus a bit overpowered (complete counter to Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp).

    Analytic might make Starmie a bit overpowered (immunity to Thunderbolt)...

    Pretty sad, since they're pretty nice thematically.

    Telepathy has excellent distribution, as do Frisk and Forewarn (nothing in OU get these). Out of those, which do you think should get these, Katakiri? We could also apply it to multiple of these.

    I don't think these are nearly as powerful as you think. Ditto's a guaranteed revenger even to rocks/steels/ghosts, and it's sitting in NU. Ambipom's pretty decent after its buff (think bigger than Espeed, though: I've seen Spore most commonly), but it's by no means overpowered.

    And remember, Zoom Lens replaces a slot usually occupied by a Choice item, LO, or Leftovers - a pretty valuable slot. Also remember that Zoom Lens requires the user to move second, which means it's only really applicable to things like... DynamicPunch Conkeldurr? Remember, without Lefties, Sub is much less viable.

    Raising the accuracy of Sleep Powder isn't really worth an item slot. Hypnosis, maybe. So it gives a 96%-accuracy Hypnosis to slow mons like... Musharna, currently sitting solidly in NU?
  5. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I didn't notice zoom lens forces user to move second! ok thats fine then, my mistake.

    Victory star still seems too overpowering in doubles though.

    Finally Fake out + Extremespeed Ambipom WILL be revenging everything.. the difference is ditto locks itself into one move and can't really do much other than revenge, Ambipom is easily a lot more versatile. I think most people will agree with me here that STAB extremespeed (with a 60BP fake out) off 115 base attack is much much much more useful than a spore coming off 115 speed.

    For reference Ambipom's Extremespeed will be the single most powerful OU viable priority move (Bisharp is not really OU viable, sucker punch is shaky)!

    I'd run calcs on what a fake out + extremespeed does to some of the bulkier non-resists currently sitting in OU but its pointless considering fake out is already only a little weaker than Scizor bullet punch and Extremspeed combined with it makes a pseudo 140BP priority move before STAB..

    I really really like a lot of the other changes though, don't get me wrong! I'll come up with some suggestions later but I still think Ambipom would be broken as it would completely discourage the use of setup sweepers. Not to mention use the fake out + e speed combo (with low kick or similar for coverage) to simply sweep away any non-defensive pokemon (literally). Ghosts + Skarmory and similar steels will become so common just as a way to deal with Ambipom.
  6. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Well, Victory Star was balanced for singles. Maybe I'll do something like +50% to Victini and +20% for partners, but I really can't balance singles and doubles at the same time, so I'm balancing for singles first and I'll think about doubles later.

    I think doubles isn't really that important: it's already pretty balanced: Singles is the one that needs Evasion Clause and Sleep Clause and DrizzleSwim Clause and Moody Clause all those other hacks to keep singles balanced because Game Freak's been balancing for doubles. So for now, NEXT is purely a singles tier.

    Ambipom has 100 base Attack, not 115. Also keep in mind that Normal isn't super-effective against anything. And because it's Fake Out, Ambipom can't run CB with it. So Ambipom's actually only a bit stronger than Scizor, except without Scizor's strong defensive typing and stats, and extremely powerful STAB U-turn.

    See, that's really the thing. Ambipom's fast and frail - priority isn't as useful for it as it is for pokemon like Scizor and Breloom that are usually slow.
  7. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Telepathy wins easily out of those three. There's a bit of overlap with Musharna since it has both Forewarn and Telepathy but the biggest reason I'd like Telepathy over Forewarn is that Musharna does most of what Hypno could do and Gardevoir eclipses Jynx due to better typing.

    With that said though, Gardevoir, Musharna, & Beheeyem need a new move or two that take advantage of their ability, much like how Game Freak gave Spinda Superpower for Contrary. (Wobbuffet and Medicham would never give up Shadow Tag and Pure Pure Power, so they're fine) That's also why I don't think Frisk should get the mechanic simply because we'd have to give new moves to too many Pokemon since they're in the same boat as the Telepathy users. (Minus Yanmega & Gothitelle, who would rather keep Speed Boost/Tinted Lenses & Shadow Tag.)

    I have thought this out a little so here's a couple suggestions:

    Beheeyem: U-Turn
    This gives BEM a small niche as a Trick Room setter. It comes in on everyone favorite move, throws out a Trick Room then can either U-Turn out itself or go on the offensive with it's high Special Attack. U-Turn (とんぼがえり Round-trip) also fits with it's visitor motif as well as it's ability to levitate.

    Gardevoir: Sketch?
    Every fiber of my being wants to say Sketch via event. (Probably because she has Trace and it matches.) It would fit her ability perfectly by letting her block one specific move to be tailored for taking on a specific Pokemon. My only concern with Sketch is that she gains access to Quiver Dance and Shell Smash. This would let Trace Gardevoir come in on Heatran's Fire Blast, Thundurus-T's Volt Switch, Jellicent's Scald, or something and just set up for free. She's got all the Defense of a wet paper bag and base 80 speed is nothing to write home about even after a QD so offense & mixed shouldn't be too threatened, but Gardevoir could tear apart stall teams if given the chance since she has Psyshock and an instant +2/+2 boosting move available.

    Musharna: Scald, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Will-O-Wisp
    All of these moves go back to what Musharna is based off of (aside from a Baku): traditional Japanese incense burners that are commonly shaped like pigs. Scald also combines that with it's sleeping theme by being heated mid-sleep drool. Competitively the Fire moves do wonders for it, but don't do a whole lot for it's ability. I drew a blank on what exactly it could get to use Telepathy with but in the process I found a few moves it thematically should have had in the first place. Musharna does stop opposing Calm Minders like Latias so it might have it's uses even without a new move.

    But yeah that's all I came up with so far. So much theorymon.

    Edit
    : Actually, since it's Event-only, Trace Gardevoir wouldn't even have access to Sketch and Encore's an Egg Move so she wouldn't have the chance to set up QD or SSmash aside from coming in on a Gengar while she's carrying Shadow Ball or landing a Hypnosis (and wasting a coverage slot for it as well.) It's still a little scary for stall but Sketch Gardevoir is MUCH more tame than I thought.
  8. cuckoos

    cuckoos

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    As opposed to automatic weather (via Drizzle, Sandstream, etc) having a set amount of longevity similar to manual weather, how about nerfing them so that their effects disappear upon switch-out or K.O? This actually makes a lot more sense flavor-wise if we can recall back to Gen 3, wherein the overworld weather effects caused by Kyogre/Groudon would end as soon as the player defeated or captured them.

    As previously mentioned, this would keep the flavor solidly intact while simultaneously making autoweather inducers such as Politoed and Tyranitar great mons in their own right. Politoed/Ninetales will retain the huge boost in power on their STABs and Abomasnow/Tyranitar will still able to abuse a massive Avalanche and SpDef boost, respectively.
  9. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    I mean, I could do that, but why? They can do that with automatic weather with a set longevity, too...
  10. Spica

    Spica

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    I've thought about potential revisions to pokémon game mechanisms for some time, and I offer a few change suggestions as ideas that are not incompatible with the enumerated points of the Gen-NEXT manifesto:

    • Moves that affect the field can be "topped up" by later uses
    For example, if a pokémon uses reflect when it's already active on its side of the battlefield, the remaining turns of reflect are extended as though reflect had just been newly applied. This change would encompass weather moves and weather auto-abilities as well. To deal with cases where the remaining turns of an effect are greater than what would result from the new application, the code would first check whether the new number of turns resulting from the latest use of the move is greater or not. If it is, then the remaining duration becomes the new number, and if not it stays the same. Obviously, these moves would no longer fail if the effect already exists on the field.

    Motivation: greater strategic choice (more occasions in battle where a move potentially constitutes a relevant choice), provides a slight boost to some less-prevalent strategies like trick room and manual weather summoning, thematically sound (reinforcing an existing effect rather than waiting for it to lapse prior to renewal)

    • If both players switch out, neither can switch the following turn
    This would not apply to switches caused by moves. The option to switch pokémon would be simply rendered unavailable for a turn, like a temporary "shadow tag."

    Motivation: rewards skillful prediction of opponent's switches, helps to ensure that the game has a finite length by avoiding unlikely corner-cases in which it is to each player's advantage to switch back and forth ad infinitum (combining with the PP system to make the game finite, a nice property for us mortals with our limited attention-spans)

    • Poison + poison = toxic poison
    If a pokémon that is already poisoned would be poisoned again, toxic poisoning results. Conceptually, you could think of it as poison status having two levels, where level 1 is normal poison and level 2 is toxic poison. Some moves / abilities / hazards add 1 level of poison (those that cause normal poisoning), whereas others add 2 (those that cause toxic poisoning). Toxic poisoning should cause 1/8 HP damage on the first turn of the count, so that it's strictly superior to "level 1" normal poison even when there's a lot of switching.

    Motivation: improves competitive viability of moves that secondarily cause poisoning, effect spore, and T-spikes, none of which are overpowered at all; makes much more thematic sense than the way it currently works (generally taking more poison results in... being more severely poisoned)
  11. ChaosAkita

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    Just a small thought - have you considered giving any changes to Power Gem? It's not a common move, but it'd give another option to the pokemon who do use it.
  12. Spica

    Spica

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    Not to be too presumptuous in answering on Zarel's behalf, but he has mentioned that he wants to preserve and/or partially restore the distinction between physical and special types. This was, I think, part of the impetus behind nerfing Focus Blast. Furthermore, he has already buffed AncientPower for consistency in the course of buffing Ominous Wind et. al. Further still, GF has arguably kept all rock type attacks relatively weak to compensate the type's inherent offensive advantages. Lastly, Probopass, the most notable user of Power Gem, has already received a special niche in his capacity to make Sandstorm permanent.
  13. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    This is a good idea.

    Hmm, this does introduce nice properties, like games definitely ending in a finite number of turns. It's a pretty huge mechanics change, though... I can see a lot of people really hating this.

    My biggest reservation here is that it buffs Toxic... maybe a bit too much. This would be much better considered the other way around - making Poison do 1/16 damage per turn like it used to. Which would make it a lot weaker (it's already the weakest status).

    The other question is, what do you do about Toxic Spikes? Two layers of Toxic Spikes would be a lot less useful if switching twice did the same thing. But if one layer was capped at regular poison, getting only one layer up would be really bad for you.

    I think it might be good to be able to "upgrade" regular poison to toxic poison, but maybe that should only be possible by inflicting toxic poison.

    Power Gem is actually 2x40 base power right now (and like other multihit moves, it's perfect accuracy). That's as high as I'm willing to go for now. It's a limited distribution move (which is why I buffed it at all), but Spica's right, I don't want Special Rock to be any more powerful than that.

    Physical Rock's gotten a few buffs: Rock Slide is 100% accurate and Rock Blast is perfectly accurate now.
  14. ChaosAkita

    ChaosAkita

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    Is there any way to play this currently?
  15. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Challenge people to it on PS! (It's in the drop-down box thing for tiers if you scroll down far enough)
  16. Spica

    Spica

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    Move-specific suggestions:

    • Minimize
    Confers a buff (volatile status) that caps the Base Power of any move used against this pokémon at 60 BP. Doesn't stack. Stomp and Steamroller ignore this cap.

    Motivation: This is one step toward scrapping evasion clause. Minimize has a fairly restricted distribution, and its previous effect was fairly powerful, indirectly boosting both sides (physical and special) of a pokémon's defensive potential. This is retained in the new effect, which especially acts as a counter-measure against overused high BP moves with downsides like Draco Meteor. The new guaranteed crit moves moves and the buffed multi-hit moves act as checks against the new minimize.

    Thematic justification: If you imagine an attack exerting a certain "pressure" against the opponent, shrinking the target reduces the amount of force that can be effectively delivered against it. If you halve the size of a sail, the wind can only "attack" it half as hard.

    • OHKO moves
    Fissure → Ground, physical
    Sheer Cold → Ice, special
    Guillotine → Dark, physical
    Horn Drill → Steel, physical

    All four: These moves always miss the first time they are used, and always fail against sturdy pokémon. They have 100BP and 90% accuracy with the additional effect that a successful hit will OHKO any pokémon weak to them.

    Motivation: Lets you scrap OHKO clause. The revised moves are not nearly as luck dependent but still retain some of their former flavour and wall-breaking potential. The fact that they always miss the first time warns any opponent who might be vulnerable to the one-hit knock-out effect. Changing the types of guillotine and horn drill provides some coverage to the pokémon that learn these moves, but I think their power level is still not very high.

    • Double Team
    Just brainstorming on this one; I have a few ideas for it that are perhaps too far out in left-field. Maybe it could set up an effect on your side of the field (limited duration) so that whenever your pokémon switches out, the incoming pokémon inherits its resistances and immunities, or even gets STAB on its move types. That would be cool but a little confusing. You wouldn't want to make it too powerful, because almost everything gets Double Team.

    • Power Whip
    Maybe it should get an accuracy nerf? It's a physical grass move that's as powerful as, and more accurate than, hydro pump.

    • Hex
    When you buffed shadow ball, this move's niche got demolished. I'm not sure the best way to strengthen it again.

    • Solar Beam
    You added effects that happen on the charge turn of some 2 turn moves, but then what happens to Solar Beam under sun? If it skips the healing you would get on the charge turn, that can create an odd corner case. If your pokémon is bulky and durable, you might be put in the odd position of thinking "I sure wish it weren't SUNNY as I'm using this SOLAR beam attack." I suggest that under sun all the effects of the move should be compressed into one turn so you get the healing too. I'd reduce the healing to 1 / 3 Max HP so that it's not overpowered.

    • Dream Eater
    Has a 70% chance to add 1 to a sleeping target's sleep counter. Hits a sleeping target that switches out pursuit-like, but not with doubled power. Signature move for hypno?

    • Mimic
    Works like sketch in-battle. That is, once you've copied an opponent's move, you retain it even if you switch out.

    • Gastro Acid
    Parallel with Acid Spray, it gives the target -2 SpDef in addition to its ability-negating effect.

    • Natural Gift
    This is an awfully complicated attack for it to be as useless as it is. Talk about wasted complexity... +40 BP across the board? That might result in a LOL-worthy mixed-attack harvest exeggutor set.

    • Pay Day
    Half-joking here, but a 60 BP attack that doubles to 120 BP and heals 1/3 Max HP if the turn number is divisible by 7.

    • Spit up
    Hits with 200 BP and removes only 1 stockpile boost.

    • Swallow
    Heals 2/3 Max HP and removes 1 stockpile boost.
  17. apt-get

    apt-get 笑っている 今が愛おしくて ひとりじゃないと思った
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    I don't want to sound like a jerk, but there's one pokémon that looks broken in GenNEXT: Ambipom.

    It has access to sketch, and double hit is buffed to 40 BP.
    So, it has access to a 120BP STAB move, along with a potential shell smash/swords dance boost. With really high speed and decent coverage options.
    I didn't play the meta yet, but it sounds threatening.
  18. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Ambipom's Defenses after Shell Smash are pathetic and any decent priority move will take it out. It has a bit of 4-moveslot syndrome as well. Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T have no issue taking a Double Hit; without Fire Punch, most Steels stop him; without Low Kick (or some fighting move,) Heatran laughs at it; and if it runs those moves, Jellicent, Chandelure, and any bulky ghost walls it since even a +2 Fire Punch is still pretty pathetic without STAB.

    On top of that, it has to find a chance to set up in the first place without getting destroyed or statused before or during the Shell Smash.


    Anyway, a change I thought of is simply giving Rapid Spin to the Pokemon that obviously should have it:
    Geodude family: (they had it in Gen 2 via Event)
    Voltorb family
    Steelix
    Spheal
    Buizel family
    Spiritomb
    Whirlipede
    Klink family

    Dancing Pokemon: Dancing can certainly include spinning but not neccesarily so this is a "maybe" section.
    Bellossom
    Ludicolo
    Kirlia
    Lilligant
    Maractus
    Meloetta
  19. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Hmm, I don't know what I feel about increasing the distribution of Rapid Spin too much.

    I'd say: Electrode family, Klinklang family, and maybe Scolipede family?

    Spica, I like your suggestions!

    I don't know about SolarBeam, though. I think it's already powerful enough.

    As for Minimize, I'd let it raise evasion, but only by one stage. I've already given perfect accuracy moves a much wider distribution, so I think it's safe.

    On the other hand, I still think Double Team's too strong because of it's distribution.

    "By moving rapidly, the user makes illusory copies of itself to raise its evasiveness."

    Hmm, what if Double Team worked like Substitute. Maybe cut 1/4 maxhp and +1 Evasion. Would that still be overpowered?

    I don't think Power Whip needs a nerf. Grass has resists and quadresists all over the place.
  20. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    Here's an idea for Double Team: make it protect against the next attack. Since it has such god distribution, it shouldn't be too powerful.
  21. Spica

    Spica

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    I noticed the latest change to substitute, and while a clever way to prevent the worst abuses of evasion, I think it goes one too far in preventing some existing tactics. It's fairly common, at least in dicey endgame situations, to substitute in the hope that an opponent will miss a powerful but inaccurate attack. Coupled with recovery, this can be a good trick for stall to use. Therefore, I wonder if substitute could ignore evasion modifiers only, but not the accuracy of the move or the accuracy modifiers of the opponent?

    Here's another way to nerf double team: make it work sort-of like an inverse yawn. That is, you get the +1 evasion at the end of the following turn, but only if you don't switch out.

    That line of thought lead me to a mechanism that could help the viability of stat-lowering moves. What if these had their existing effect, but also another stat-lowering effect that kicks in at the end of the turn after next, like Doom Desire and the new Echoed Voice.

    Example:

    Metal Sound
    Lowers SpDef 2 stages and sets up an effect that will give -1 SpDef to the opponent active at the end of the 2nd turn following, heralded by a message like "A metal sound echoes in the opponent's ears!"

    That would give these moves a lease on life, because they wouldn't be entirely negated by switches and would require more effort to work around.
  22. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    I agree, that's probably a better way of dealing with it. I've unintentionally nerfed Substitute too much recently. :(

    Ehh, seems a bit complicated. Anything you don't like about my idea?

    It's interesting, although I don't think all stat lowering moves should do that.
  23. Spica

    Spica

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    Not really, and it's probably the most elegant and flavourful solution. It might make double team fairly useless, but perhaps that's for the best to err on the side of caution in this case and see how the metagame develops esp. when the project is further along.

    Nor do I. Early game moves like Growl have insane distributions and were never meant to be powerful. Accuracy-lowering could become annoying if you couldn't switch out of it and escape completely. I'm thinking a few moves for which it would make sense: Metal Sound, Screech and Cotton Spore ("Cotton Spores drift down onto [Pokémon]!" or something for the delayed effect).
  24. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    My double team, I think is better because it fits the flavour better and doesn't include hax. Even if you don't use it, it would be nice ro get a comment.
    Also, it encourages more strategic thinking, which is always a good thing.
  25. Spica

    Spica

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    Your suggestion is a little under-specified I think. That is, it's not clear from reading your post how it would work.

    How would it be different from Protect / Detect, for instance? The problem with a new move that protects against attacks is how it would combine with Protect. If you could alternate between the two, it would turn out to be broken as you could lay down status and then quash all attacks.

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