Gen-NEXT development thread

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Zarel, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. surewood96

    surewood96

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    one more change that i think could be interesting and add to the feeling of having a next generation pokemon game would be adding in CAP's as new OU threats most don't need buffs and should be a fairly easy change to put in place if others like it.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  2. PokemonMasterDebater

    PokemonMasterDebater

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    @surewood96 CAPs are cool and all, but there is absolutely no reason to put them in here. At all. It's not something that Game Freak would ever do, so it's not gonna be done here.
  3. Zeofar

    Zeofar

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    I've been sitting on a few ideas for NEXT, so I figured that I might as well post them already. I'll mention some considerations that guide my thought process:
    • If an option receives any special attention at all, then it should be improved until it is viable in at least one meaningful niche.
    • Outside of policy updates, a Pokemon should not be changed if it is likely to remain unused in a competitive context afterward.
    • A change which clearly and universally eliminates the viability of another option is not a good one (changes should equalize, not replace).
    • While large variations in move usability serve a purpose in-game, a competitive metagame gains more from equivalence in options when it does make play impractically unpredictable.
    • There should always be some greater reason for a change than "It would be interesting if..." (changes should be purposeful).
    That said, I'd like to address weather in NEXT: it's too good. Swift Swim has been unleashed, Sand Rush has come back in with Excadrill and Flygon, and all weathers have received new toys to play with. Snorlax especially can serve as a one-man stall machine on extremely aggressive weather teams, allowing them to shift gears even more easily than before. It's become a little bit harder to set up weather, but it has also been made that much harder to take it away. And with priority weather moves, there's still nothing that non-weather teams can do to prevent it. The original weather inducers could be used for this purpose, but beside Tyranitar, they're still extremely poor options on their own and do nothing against their respective weathers. I don't believe that if the NEXT metagame were fully developed that any non-weather team, outside of a stall-based or extremely bulky team, could seriously compete. I don't know how to fully resolve this problem, but I think that nerfing Swift Swim and co. would help immensely.

    Issue: Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, and Sand Rush often make it completely impossible to be outsped. Many teams often have absolutely no way to prevent this or deal with it.
    Proposal: Make these abilities increase speed by 1.5x instead of 2x
    Rationale: This would greatly improve any team's ability to respond to Pokemon with these abilities with a Choice Scarf user while still maintaining their function. Some extremely slow abusers of these abilities would suffer, like Beartic, Armaldo, and Omastar. However, it would also improve the relative utility of users like Floatzel who are already fast.

    On to more general suggestions:

    Issue: Castform was buffed with the improvement of Forecast. It's still neither used nor usable.
    Proposal: Make Forecast induce a permanent weather corresponding to the weather stone held by Castform on switch-in.
    Rationale: There's no variation in weather inducers, which is just as boring as the original OU state. Castform's inferior stats and movepool mean that even with this ability, the other weather setters may often be preferable. In addition, the very fact that it has an awful movepool makes carrying an additional weather an interesting option as an anti-weather tool.

    Issue: Cloud Nine and Air Lock are relatively weak abilities that don't function the way most people expect.
    Proposal: Make Cloud Nine and Air Lock induce a no-weather state on switch-in.
    Rationale: This lends some much-needed function to Cloud Nine users as anti-weather tools. Lickitung and Lickilicky especially would have some viability on non-weather teams as clerics. Technically speaking, Rayquaza does not need the buff.

    Issue: Unnerve is a far too specific ability; every user has better options.
    Proposal 1: Rework Unnerve as a special-intimidate, reducing Special Attack by 1 stage on switch-in.
    Rationale: This is a far more attractive ability across the board, and the flavor certainly rings true. Several Pokemon eligible for Unnerve also get Volt Switch or U-Turn: especially notable are Galvantula, which would really only lose the use of Zap Cannon and Thunder, and Persian, which would no longer be able to take advantage of Technician. Masquerain benefits from an increase to its special bulk as a Quiver Dance abuser. Vespiquen would also like an upgrade from the ever-useless Pressure. Tyranitar is an interesting dilemma: Sandstorm's boost to the Sp. Def of Rock types carries a similar effect, but after being dethroned as a primary weather inducer, Unnerve could be used to push Tyranitar's special bulk even higher alongside Probopass. This would also be a useful ability when/if NEXT Doubles is implemented.

    Alternative: Rework Unnerve so that casts Embargo on switch-in (Or blocks the opponent's use of items entirely as long as the user is in play).
    Rationale: This version is certainly closer to the effect and intent of the original ability, even if it is somewhat less usable. More finesse is necessary to switch into a situation when this effect is favorable, but it could significantly weaken users of Choice items or Life Orb.

    Issue: Howl is too weak to be used viably.
    Proposal: Add the effect and negative priority of Roar to Howl, making it a boosting phazer.
    Rationale: Howl is now an extremely unique, interesting, and usable move that prompts predictive play and can rack up hazard damage while building power. Many of the Pokemon who learn Howl also get Intimidate, allowing them to run a bulky set which disincentivises switching out of the attack drop even further. Arcanine could certainly run Howl/Flare Blitz/Extremespeed alongside Will-O-Wisp or Morning Sun, and Stoutland's respectable bulk allows it to use this version of Howl easily. Luxray can also run it with Guts, making it almost impossible for a utility Pokemon to wall it or do anything against it. Mightyena struggles as ever, but Sucker Punch+Howl would probably become the strongest combination available to it.

    Alternative 1: Make Howl raise the attack of the next Pokemon to switch in, like Flower Gift.
    Rationale: I think it was actually Zarel who mentioned this? In any case, this would also help increase Howl's power while also giving it a unique effect. It would be less generally useful, probably being best on Stoutland or Arcanine to help the team.

    Alternative 2: Make Howl also drop the attack of the opposing Pokemon one stage.
    Rationale: This accentuates the attack drop of Intimidate, making it hard on anyone who wants to stay in against a Howl user.

    Issue: Cute Charm is far too unreliable to be used.
    Proposal: Rework Cute Charm so that it casts Attract on switch-in.
    Rationale: Alright, Infatuation is still really unreliable and narrow. And it's also really obnoxious when it works. But this would give it the ability the potential to impact a match. It is also another ability that would have an expanded use in NEXT Doubles.

    Alternative: Update Cute Charm to status quo so that it always causes Infatuation when hit, like Poison Point and Static.
    Rationale: A basic policy update. I think this speaks for itself.

    Issue: White Smoke was not updated with Clear Body, an identical ability.
    Proposal: Update White Smoke to match Clear Body's new functionality.
    Rationale: Because status quo. But there's more: it gives Torkoal some powerful options. Overheat and Shell Smash now have no downside on an offensive Torkoal. It can run a solid Shell Smash set with Overheat/Earth Power/Hidden Power or a mixed set with Overheat/Stone Edge and Earthquake or Earth Power. The power of Shell Smash is kept in check by Torkoal's low speed, making it fairly easy to revenge kill since no boost will ever make Torkoal fast. Heatmor also gets an improved Superpower, but it wouldn't do much to make it great.

    Alright, that's it for today.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
    MikeDawg likes this.
  4. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Hm, these are all pretty good ideas.
  5. OiawesomeDG

    OiawesomeDG

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    I actually do have NEXT doubles implemented on my server, but I'd rather not advertise it as it is highly unnoficial, just saying it exists lol
  6. Inspector Spacetimre

    Inspector Spacetimre

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    Great work so far, i found gen-next by accident and i've loved it ever since.
    My only complaint is that snorlax with thick fat seems a bit OP, no weaknesses, high stats, can heal off any status with rest, hits ghosts with stab snore, can boost with belly drum/curse by the time you switch ur counter in. Does well in sun and hail. I think the best way to stop this monster is replacing thick fat's fighting resistance with a normal resist and possibly also grass resist. I think a normal resist makes sense flavor-wise and grass would too a bit. The grass resist would also help pokemon like mamoswine and wallrein have more bulk. With the normal resist hariyama who's hardly used at all could become a strong counter to snorlax. You could even use eviolite pignite if you wish, or you could give emboar thick fat, it's strange he doesn't get it.

    Also, i think implementing known gen 6 mechanics changes would attract more players as it would give them a taste of what the metagame might be like, the mechanics i'm talking about are as follows: Ghost types are no longer affected by moves that prevent fleeing such as Mean Look. Grass Pokémon can't be seeded or affected by moves such as SleepPowder or Stun Spore (I think that includes spore). Electric types can no longer be Paralysed. They make sense flavor-wise too.

    I'd also like to see priority for magnet rise, most users of it are slow like magnezone, probopass, aggron and ampharos, and it would pretty much be a counter to sand rush excadrill/flygon
  7. Inspector Spacetimre

    Inspector Spacetimre

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    Signature move for magmortar - incinerate 50/60 bp (destroys opponents item unless opponent has sticky hold/flash fire or a similar ability)
  8. surewood96

    surewood96

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    The only other change i could see to recommend at this point is that while I was going through the readme I saw that drives boosts techno blast's by 1.1x which still leaves it at 85x1.1=93.5 which leaves it unviable compared to flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt at 95 BP each along with a secondary affect (bar water type techno blast since genesect doesnt get surf). if drives were given this boost to make techno blast viable then their boost should either be changed to 1.2x or techno blast should be made a 90 BP move. At least if the point of the drives was to make techno blast an option viable over the "elemental beams" it needs a higher BP or a secondary affect. Further reasoning for it to have a higher BP is its lower PP as most moves with only 5 PP either have a good affect or high base power.
  9. PokemonMasterDebater

    PokemonMasterDebater

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    I know that you still got more important things to take care of in regards to gen 6, (like making sure Phantom Force works properly with Prankster on Mega Banette, for example), but I have a couple questions about what your plans were for Gen-Next moving forward.
    1. Do you plan to continue development on GN at some point in the future?
    2. Up till now everything you've done was something that gamefreak could do with the relese of a new gen of games. Have you thought about changing your design philosophy such that you make changes based on things that gamefreak could have done with X and Y, (like give more old Pokemon like Blissy, Milotic, etc. Fairy typing for example)?
  10. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    1. Yeah. It's nice that a few NEXT features actually did make it into XY, like Roar/Whirlwind being perfect accuracy, and weather abilities being nonpermanent. :] I definitely plan to keep going once I have some free time.

    2. The main problem with that is, Game Freak could have given Blissey the Fairy type, but they didn't. It's the same reason I didn't give Flareon Flare Blitz last gen. Oh well, at this point I'm still sticking to "no type retcons". It's partly also just nice to know that if you don't have any NEXT experience, you at least still know what type everything is.
    PokemonMasterDebater likes this.
  11. Talpr0ne

    Talpr0ne

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    Some things that would be nice to see after Gen6 is complete.
    • Fixing Disarmling Voice base power to 80(seriously 40 base power is awful). This should apply also to Aerial Ace and similar moves, following the nerfed Aura Sphere.
    • Fixing Draining Kiss and Parabolic Charge to 75 base power, like every other goddamn draining move.
    • Remove Limber from Stunfisk for Storm Drain or Water Absorb. This because Electric types are naturally immune to Paralysis, so Limber became less useful than Honey Gather for him(at least Honey Gather allows you to find Honey after ingame battles :C ). Water Absorb or Storm Drain would give it a nice niche as a water counter that can spread status and setup rocks. OU needs more Stunfisk cries.
  12. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast improsin + bapongbas gg,,,,,,
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    Draining Kiss restores 75% of the damage dealt instead of 50% and Parabolic Charge is spread, which is presumably why they have lower BP.
    But... triple immunity to Thunder Wave is fun... :,(
    Jaguar360, EJ190 and Pikachuun like this.
  13. OiawesomeDG

    OiawesomeDG

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    I know game freak doesn't give a fuck about the singles metagame/builds for the dubs VGC metagame since gen IV, but parabolic charge is even terrible there, coming off as a outstanding ~~35 BP spread move, so even there it's terrible, you don't see EQ being 65 BP or -. and draining kiss could be buffed to oblivion wings power but meh
  14. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast improsin + bapongbas gg,,,,,,
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    Rock Slide is everywhere in VGC/Doubles and is piss weak without STAB there so I don't see your point; even if it's stronger than Parabolic Charge it doesn't have any recovery to it.
  15. PokemonMasterDebater

    PokemonMasterDebater

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    After examining some of the changes to critical hits this gen, I think that incresing crit rates might be a legitimate form of boosting now for some Pokémon. For anyone who dosen't know what I am talking about, incressing your critical hit rate 3 stages makes all of your attacks always crit, meaning it's posible to get reliable crits. And because crits negate defensive boosts and offensive drops, there are now pokemon that gain distinct advantages by boosting crit rate over simply boosting their attack stats.
    With crits becoming a potentially viable alternitive to normal attack boosting, I think that now would be a good time to change a few things related to crits.
    • Remove random crits from occuring under normal circumstances: Normal circumstances meaning the attacker is:
      A) Not using an attack with an incressed critical hit rate
      B) Not holding an item that would boost its crit rate
      C) Not under the effects of Focus Energy
      D) Does not have the ability Super Luck
      In times past, defensive stat boosting has proven to be less reliable than one might think, because random critical hits can turn the tide of battle too easily. I know I won several games that I shouldn't have when I got lucky against someone who I had allowed to boost to the point of near indestructablity. Removing the 1/16 chance for moves to crit would not only reduce the total amount of hax in the game, but also make defensive stat boosting more reliable, and increse the utility of high/auto crit moves.

    • Re-adjust BP for autocrit charge up/recharge moves: This probably goes without saying, but the charge up moves need their power buffed from Gen 5 Next. They will be way too weak to use otherwise.

    • Make Slash a 60 BP auto crit move, and give Persian signature Slash: 60(bp)*1.5(Tech)*1.5(Crit)*1.5(STAB)*1.5(Sig)=301.75 base power. Slightly more powerful than unboosted Dragonite's Outrage.
      In RBY, Persian had a guarantied critical hit with Slash, and that gave it a home in OU, dispite its lower bulk and attack, and worse coverage than other normal types in the tier. But sense the changes to critical hit mechanics in Gen 2, Persian has been in the lowest tier available every gen since then. This change would give it a new chance to become useful, even if it lacks the coverage that would be required to be a sweeper.

    • Buff Sniper so that it also boosts accuracy by 1.3: Many of the moves that benefit from sniper and higher crit rates, like Stone Edge and Draco Meteor, are also somewhat unreliable in terms of accuracy. The word "sniper" is somewhat synonymous with "marksman" which means being skillful and accurate at shooting, so it would make sense for Pokémon with the ability Sniper to be more accurate with their attacks.

    • Give Farfetch'd Sniper as an ability, and change Stick so that it gives +3 (100%) crit rate to Farfetch'd: If both these changes were made, this would basically boost Farfetch'd's attack stats by 225%, giving it an effective base attack of approximately 208 when fully invested.
      Mathematical Proof (open)
      65*2+99=229, 229+22= 251, 251*2.25=564.75,
      565-51=514, 514-99=415, 415/2=207.5

      Giving a joke Pokemon this much power may seem a bit far fetched, (tee hee). But even with these changes, Farfetch'd, not unlike Pikachu, will likly suffer as a sweeper because of its poor bulk, speed, and inability to use another item. It needs that much power to be of any use at all.
  16. Asterat

    Asterat

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    Well not anymore.
  17. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Yeah, I know. I'm still not doing any of my own stat changes because:

    1. Hard to keep track of.
    2. Hard to constrain, so difficult to decide exactly how to change stats.
    2. Huge rabbit hole, so many things that could possibly change.

    NEXT's current system of mainly buffing unpopular abilities is working surprisingly well for it.
  18. Inspector Spacetimre

    Inspector Spacetimre

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    Suggestions for gen 6

    Darmanitan's zen mode works like stance change: darmanitan changes to zen mode when he uses special or status attacks, and revert back when using physical moves.
    Zen mode needs a boost it's pretty useless as it is, I doubt darminatan will become as strong as aegislash as he doesn't have any priority moves except protect. Zen mode does have strong stats but still a small movepool to use it.

    Magician and pickpocket work with gems as in when you attack and use a gem, you also steal the opponent's item in the process, it worked like this briefly for delphox and it was actually kinda good. They don't seem to work at all atm.

    Intrinsic bulletproof for pokemon with hard shells? Chesnaught now gets iron barbs as a hidden ability. A bit of a long shot but this would greatly lower the use of mega gengar as chesnaught pretty much walls common sets already.

    Florges a grass/fairy type?

    Powder deals damage when a fire move is used, I'm not sure how much damage it currently is, but 50-100% would be nice, if so could the move be given to the other moth/butterfly pokemon except volcarona obviously.

    A higher base power for fell stinger? 50 base power?
  19. EDDR

    EDDR

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    As a Mage/Wizard, I'm disappointed at the lack of variety of moves Delphox has. It should definitely have a tonne more coverage options such as Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam?, Dazzling Gleam, Focus Blast, Tri Attack, Stored Power and Nasty Plot.

    Pyroar should get Boomburst because it learns a lot of Sound based moves and lions can be heard 5 miles away in a human's ear. It would help it escape the horrible defensive typing it gets by turning it's lackluster Normal typing into a strength with his stats holding him back.

    Gyarados has to get Crunch... I don't know why it hasn't been given Crunch yet, it also allows it's Mega Form to have a stronger STAB.
  20. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous

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    Hey, it's me, Temporaryanonymous. Roomowner of the NEXT room on the main server of Pokemon Showdown. I thought I'd like to give some of my thoughts on generation six NEXT usage. I've been meaning to do this for a long time (starting when I wrote this tongue-in-cheek comparison of NEXT to gen 6: http://pastebin.com/7isExXZM). However, instead of suggesting a bunch of changes and what should be done, I'm going to talk a little bit about how the actual gameplay features and meta of gen six will affect NEXT and what should be changed.

    I am assuming Zarel will change the BST of only the few pokemon that GF did, and going to implement fairy typing and the steel nerf.

    1. Weather is no longer permanent. Zarel got this one right, but I think there shouldn't be any perma-weather at all. I mean, Cryogonal with snow warning or phione with drizzle is fine, but when you have permanent weather and abilities like swift swim, sand rush, chlorophyll and the opponent doesn't have a counter weather, it gets pretty unbalanced. If anything, the meta seems more weather dependent.

    2. Steel was nerfed. This is really one thing I'm looking at here, and that's Shadow Ball. Shadow ball was buffed to compensate for losing focus blast, but with gen 6, that's no longer needed. Gengar gets Dazzling gleam for decent coverage as a replacement to focus blast, and one of the last things the meta needs are Gengar and Aegislash hurling 90BP 30% spD dropping shadow balls that rip through everything not normal or dark type.

    3. Crits have been changed. To accommodate, the autocrit moves should have their powers multiplied by 3/4 to get the new values (although nobody will really mind if a move like razor wind is now 60bp autocrit as nobody actually used it. Farfetch'd probably also would really appreciate a +3crit stick instead of a +2 crit stick.

    4. Some moves have been changed. The three that are probably the most important are hidden power, technoblast, and knock off. Hidden power makes all non technician pokemon lack a bit more coverage, and it also slightly nerfs NEXT unown, which isn't that big of a deal. I remember saying back then, that Technoblast was too weak, even with 1.1 boost and STAB. Now it sits at 110 base power. If Gensect-Douse uses it, it'd be a 181 base power water move, possibly backed by download. This probably needs tweaking. Knock off is less of an immediate changer to NEXT, but a 97 base power dark move that removes items is very strong, and a lot of pokemon would benefit from this.

    5. New moves. Some of them are quite disappointing, like parabolic charge (damage buff?) or land's wrath (let it hit flying/levitate or through protect?). Those are probably the only two that stand out and need buffing.

    6. Gen 6 OU. As a whole, it seems very fast paced, and as some have called it, priority based. The top 3 gen 6 mons in OU are probably Aegislash, Greninja, and Talonflame. Greninja doesn't really get any new fun tools to play with, but Aegislash gets automatize. With a +3 boost to speed, neutral speed Aegislash is able to match base 128's, and an automatize weakness policy set is pretty popular. Talonflame is partially held in check with stealth rock, but NEXT stealth rock only does 25% to it, making it significantly stronger. As a whole, stealth rock and other hazards should also be reconsidered as defog allows an easy way to remove them.

    I can probably think of more later, but this is all that's on my mind as of right now.
  21. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Since this is a pet mod, shouldn't it be moved to the pet mod thread when gen 6 becomes a thing?
  22. Jaguar360

    Jaguar360

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    Considering most stat changes have been +10, would it really be that difficult to keep track of them? They would only be for Pokemon that really need the changes making it about 20-30 Pokemon that get the stat changes. The changes would realistically be mostly for the newer Pokemon too. Obviously your call though.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  23. FTTsunami

    FTTsunami

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    Well i made this banner for the NEXT room it would be cool if Zarel can check it out and put it in the room http://i.imgur.com/rDnPVrW.png thanks for reading if you did
  24. Spoderman

    Spoderman

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    I just wanted to point out, that due to the new egg move mechanics, Ambipom now learns sketch as much times as it wants.
  25. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

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    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they'd handle it similar to Necturna and have it only learn sketch once by some other method. I know how Necturna's being handled in gen 6 not really because I asked the people in the CAP room in IRC and Showdown about it. So yeah, Ambipom will get sketch only once somehow.

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