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Gen V 1 vs 1 Metagame

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Doughboy, May 18, 2013.

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  1. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    This is a very broad statement and is missing the point of 1 vs 1. First of all your are missing several key Pokemon that are able to beat that set without having multi-hit moves or being a grass-type. These include Tyranitar, any user of Fake Out, Thundurus / Tornadus with Taunt, anything with Taunt makes it a 50/50 guessing game of Taunt vs Leech Seed, Alakazam, etc. Taking all of that + any user of multi-hit moves + any Grass type, that is a hell of Pokemon. So the rock, paper, and scissors is not as centralized as you make it out to be.

    Yes 1 vs 1 is very matchup based, but the beauty of 1 vs 1 is that you can never be sure that your Pokemon can be beaten by a matchup you normally win against. When you take this mentality into consideration, you realize that you can garner surprise wins by taking advantage of people's standard course of action against your own Pokemon. Of course, the second aspect of the beauty of 1 vs 1 is that you must balance the aspect of taking advantage of people's standard course of action by using a surprise set with maintaining the strongest matchup with all other Pokemon as a whole.

    Anywho I promise myself to take a stronger role in this project and guide it. I am really happy to see this project gain a solid spot on PS!'s "Other Metagames" listing, being up there with Tier Shift and Balance Hackmons.

    _________________________________________________________________

    There will be no new bans taking forth, except for one: There will be a (temporary ban) on Focus Sash.

    Right now, I see Focus Sash as an impediment on the tier for several reasons. First, Focus Sash really devalues both the aspects of bulk and power in 1 vs 1 metagame and puts way too much emphasis on speed. Bulk is a non-factor when considering a Pokemon, since Pokemon are in a vacuum and be assured survival against any move outside of multi-hit moves, no matter how powerful the attack is. Attacking power is also negligible because no matter how powerful the attack, the majority of the metagame will be able to survive the hit and be able to retaliate. There is little point into entering the game with a stellar attacker if the game boils down to 2HKO's which a Pokemon with less power could get, which is the situation Focus Sash creates.This is why Level 1 Pokemon are able to succeed because neither bulk or power do not matter in many situations.

    Without bulk or power, the name of the game is speed. The game with Focus Sash is essentially "who can finish the 1 HP first?" This places huge emphasis on attackers with priority: you have enough power to OHKO and have an attack that can not be beaten.

    Lastly, Focus Sash stymies many strategies that otherwise would be much more common. Pokemon with Choiced items, CounterCoat, and bulky booosting. Without the ability to OHKO the opposing Pokemon cleanly, Pokemon with Choiced items get exposed to being OHKO'ed themselves in retaliation. CounterCoat users are also unable to cleanly OHKO opposing Pokemon who are holding a Focus Sash, meaning they might have to take 2 hits to potentially get KO'ed and that their initial retaliation was basically useless. Lastly, there is little point to trend towards bulky boosters if the bulk can be made up on another Pokemon with Focus Sash. The boosting would be a waste because the first attack is needed to break that Sash, making boosts negligible. The niche of survival that Focus Sash provides can be replaced by resist berries, but it isn't always survival.

    discuss.

    edit: In case you haven't noticed I made the ban on focus sash permanent because many more strategies become viable.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  2. noobcubed

    noobcubed

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    I have to say i disagree on the focus sash ban, there are counters to focus sash:

    1) multi-hit, 2) fake out, 3) trick/switcheroo, 4) sleep, 5) sand stream/snow warning (with an initial protect).

    I will admit I can see that focus sash is a little overcentralising. My 1v1 mon of choice at the moment is Jynx, which uses both (2) and (4) as anti-sash measures (and could use (3) too) and has a focus sash itself. Indeed, focus sash is a huge part of what makes something with such a miserable defense stat so viable. In a sashless metagame, Jynx would be "just another sleep user".

    However, focus sash itself creates interesting strategies, and I think it is good to have something that the metagame can model itself around to prevent the metagame from having too large a threatlist. In a game where you only have one teamslot, you can't cover all the options anyway, and having a vast number of usable mons makes it impossible to ever find a winning formula. The challenge is to come up with a set that always gives you a chance of beating any opponent, and the more threats you have to face, the harder it is.

    Finally, your point about sash users ruining other strategies isn't valid. ALL strategies have strengths and weaknesses against other strategies. That's like saying (in 6v6 singles) "we should ban water types because they devalue fire types". Or "we should ban drizzle and stealth rock because..." oh, wait a minute...
  3. Redless

    Redless

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    On one hand I do see the point of why focus sash is imbalancing to the meta. It does put quite a lot of emphasis on speed as opposed to other attributes, as was said. Speed is just one aspect of what makes a Pokemon good, and there should be room for other stats and abilities that contribute to the success of a Pokemon. On the other hand, focus sash does provide a centralizing point for the metagame. Without focus sash, it would be very difficult to create a Pokemon that could be successful against a large amount of the metagame. This is because without focus sash, matches will become more type matchup based, rather than strategy based. Without focus sash, it becomes more viable to run three or four attacking moves on a Pokemon, since focus sash won't be there to turn things around if it comes down to which Pokemon is packing the more appropriate coverage move. With many attacks on one Pokemon becoming a more prominent strategy, the meta will come down to brute type matchups instead of tactics and prediction and the like. This will make it much harder to win a high percentage of matches played by taking advantage of strategies in the meta, since many matches will come down to the offensive moves carried by either side, hurting the role of strategy and skill in determining the successfulness of a player.

    In conclusion, while I can see the logic behind banning the sash, and I think that banning it temporarily was a good measure, in the long run I would say that keeping focus sash banned would be a detriment to the metagame by reducing the skill and strategy needed to win a large portion of matches.
    Keep it Playful likes this.
  4. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Hear my tears all in my tunes
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    Metagross @ Balloon
    252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 def
    Trait: Clear Body
    Adamant Nature
    ~ Meteor Mash
    ~ Ice Punch
    ~ Bullet punch
    ~ Earthquake

    Thanks to the balloon, meta has an easy time beating dragons such as Salamence and Dragonite, it avoids earthquake and hits back with ice punch. Meteor Mash is the main stab giving it boosts everyone once in a while as well. Bullet punch is for priority and earthquake helps you beat Jirachi as long as you don't get burned by fire punch. Maximize the HP so you can use it's natural bulk well still being able to hit hard with max+ attack. Clear body is also a great ability in this metagame because you can't be bullied by pokemon such as mence and landokitty
  5. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

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    I find Wobbufett to be VERY effective in this metagame.

    Wobbufett@Lum Berry
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 Def/252 SpD/4 HP
    Bold Nature
    -Encore
    -Counter
    -Mirror Coat
    -Safeguard

    Destroys All-Out Attackers, Choice users, Sleepers, Toxic Stallers and more.
  6. Laga

    Laga We will never hear about the truly perfect crime.
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    Why the spread? 252 HP would be much more effecient, and if you want spread out defenses, just EV them to hit the same number or something. Since you are running Counter and Mirror Coat, you will be doing way more damage if you have your HP stat maxed out, whilst not taking larger percentages of health :p
  7. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis

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    I have faced several Blazikens despite its presence on the banlist... what's up with that?

    It hasn't been too threatening though.
  8. Breaking Mew

    Breaking Mew

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    I have recently found a new strategy for 1v1. I came up with it as a joke, just to see what would happen. And it turned out to be an amazingly effective technique that conquers nearly every other viable strategy in the metagame.

    PP Stall

    No, I'm being serious. PP stalling is (in my opinion) the most powerful strategy in the 1v1 metagame.

    Mew (Break Me) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Synchronise
    EVs: 252 HP / 252+ Spe / 4 Def
    Barrier, Amnesia, Roost, Substitute


    Pure offensive can't beat it; unless they get a crit in the first few turns, they get walled by barrier and amnesia too fast. After that, roost heals more damage than they can do, and subs protect Mew from crits. Generally, anything powerful enough to OHKO an unboosted bulky Mew is also too slow to move first. Even most choice users (that I've faced) can't break through in the first few turns.
    Once Mew has a substitute and +6 Def +6 Spd, barrier and amnesia are used to stall the enemy out, with roost and substitute being used as necessary.

    Gimmicky teams can't beat it: Substitute protects Mew from most of them, allowing Mew to just PP stall them out. Barrier has 48 PP and Amnesia has 32 PP, so Mew has more total PP than most other gimmick sets.

    So far, the only reliable counters I've found are taunt, choice trick, and moves that raise Atk or SpA. They completely break this set. I know at least a few people have started running taunt since I started using PP Stall Mew.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  9. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast I run with the wolves of the wicked
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    Probably the single most destructive thing I've used in 1v1 is Choice Scarf Porygon-Z. Adaptability Hyper Beam is the ultimate killing force. It even has Dark Pulse for Ghosts. Struggles with Steel-types if it has the wrong Hidden Power though...
  10. Antigrapist

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    Any thoughts on banning accuracy lowering moves like flash? Since you can't switch out, lowering your opponent's accuracy is as good as raising your evasion, but only the latter is banned. Shuckles running Flash, acupressure, rollout and chesto-rest are really tough to deal with, and make games very luck dependant.
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  11. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    I found a good strategy that is similar to FEAR, but uses Metal Burst instead of Endeavor. I use an Aggron with Sturdy, 252 EVs in HP and attack, and a lonely(+Atk, -Def) nature. The goal is to get the opponent to use an attack that activates Sturdy and brings it down to one HP and then use Metal Burst, which usually KOs them. Just in case it doesn't, I give it a Custap Berry and the moves Stone Edge and Earthquake to deal with any HP remaining. I also give 0 IVs in Speed, Defense, and SpD so attacks hit harder and I will be outsped by other base 70 neutral nature pokemon that don't invest in speed. It can even be outsped by the likes of Hippowdon and Quagsire that way.

    I find it deals well against anything with powerful neutral or SE special moves, or anything with a physical ground or fight type move that lacks priority, or any paraflincher. It can also handle any opponent foolish enough to fall in to my trap and try to OHKO.

    Other options (open)
    -Spe Nature (open)
    If you are more worried about pokemon that fall between 105 and 94 speed (0 evs, 31 ivs, neutral nature Reuniclus, Slowbro, Snorlax, Wobbufet, Carracosta, Stunfisk, Slowking, Amoongus, and Bronzong, opposing lonely Aggron), you could run Brave (+Atk, -Spe), but that makes physical moves deal less damage (and enables it to survive some earthquakes), hindering this set's ability to handle other physical attackers. Running a Brave nature also nets you a win against opposing Metal Burst Aggron that use a lonely nature.


    Other moves (open)
    I choose EQ and Stone edge due to their great neutral coverage and power, but other moves are usable. Other options include Iron Head, Aqua Tail, and Fire Punch. You could also replace Protect with an attack, but I keep it if I'm not sure what my opponent will do, or if my opponent has Fake Out. You could try Fire Blast can score a surprise hit against physical walls, but I wouldn't use it as Fire Punch hits harder, not to mention that you lack control over what your opponent does.


    Other items (open)
    Leftovers can be a good item to use so that foes can't break through Sturdy with other moves and then get the KO.


    Dealing with FEAR (open)
    Against FEAR Aron, I use protect to make sure that it is FEAR, followed by Metal Burst to kill a turn. Since Shell Bell can no longer provide enough HP regeneration to restor itself to max HP, I effectively win as earthquake, Aron's best move, which I haven't seen it have, usually deals 4 damage with a slight chance of doing 8, while I can proceed to 2HKO with EQ (or Stone Edge, but a miss would mess me up so I use EQ instead).

    Against level 2 Pain Split Probapass, I alternate between protect and detect until it can't fully recover with pain split.


    Against Metagross (open)
    Against Metagross, I usually start off with EQ, which 2HKOs, because if it tricks me a choice item, I can endure the next attack due to Sturdy and KO with EQ. If they run attacking moves only, which I've yet to see, then I endure due to Sturdy and hit with EQ. I then move first due to Custap Berry and KO.

    Metagross outspeeds, so you lose if you don't opt for EQ or Metal Burst, or you may lose if you choose Fire Blast or Fire Punch turn one.



    Other pokemon to use similar sets (open)
    Dialga is banned, and Cobalion is too fast, not to mention it lacks sturdy so it must hold a focus sash. Bisharp is faster with a lower HP and no access to sturdy, so it is outclassed by Aggron. Bastiodon is slower with only a slightly lower HP and lower Defense plus access to Sturdy, but its much lower attack hinders it, not to mention that Lairon is a better option with the same HP, higher Atk, SpA, and Spe, lower Def, much lower SpD, and only slightly higher, although still very low, speed. Mawile is in the same boat as Bastiodon, only it lacks Sturdy. Stall Sableye could use it, but Stall really harms it elsewhere, and its lower HP makes stuff like Vaporeon no longer OHKOs when hit by a max power Metal Burst. Aron and Sheildon are all outclassed by the evolutions.



    Also, I have a question. If my Aggron uses Head Smash and KOs the opponent, but KOs itself through recoil damage, who wins?[/HIDE][/HIDE]
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  12. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    I've also found that Truant Durant with Leftovevers and Entrainment/Protect/Endure/Sand-Attack can beat any pokemon that relies on Guts or Quick Feet and can't OHKO it before Guts/Quick Feet activates. If you don't KO turn one and lack a held item/ability that damages yourself or your opponent, the battle could last 66 turns. And then you could use Sand-Attack to reduce their accuracy and possibly make it last even longer.

    Of course, this strategy has its weaknesses, like any fire-type move, or any pokemon that can OHKO on turn one, or taunt, but it could function as an annoyer/staller.
  13. Antigrapist

    Antigrapist

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    It would be a tie, which are rare but can happen. Also, I've run into your metal bursting Aggron and it's a major threat, especially if the opposing pokemon is running a choice item.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  14. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Yes, but I've found Deoxys-D to defeat it easily (unless you run a choice item on Aggron, in which case the trick gives you both choice items and then, you can win).

    But, why is the focus sash banned?

    Also, I nominate this for the longest 1v1 battle (if you want to watch it, be warned that it lasts 169 turns): http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/1v1-44948113
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
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  15. Redless

    Redless

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    When I use Aggron, I typically run taunt on it so that it can deal with Pokemon that would want to trick, because at least in the case of deo, this makes it much easier to win. It also helps with Whimsicott. If you want to take anti trick to the next level, there's always mail.
  16. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Against Metagross, Taunt wouldn't help as its Earthquake 2HKOs without activating the Custap Berry while Metagross's Earthquake forces sturdy to activate. Furthermore, Metagross outspeeds even when you have a choice scarf so trying to taunt won't help anything.

    Deoxys-D outspeeds by more than Metagross and has better bulk, although it can 3HKO with earthquake.
  17. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    I am also questioning why the Sash is banned. Yes, it is powerful, but it also adds a whole lot of additional strategy.

    I had a lot of fun with Sashed Electrode.

    A funny fact was, that Electrode forced ties pretty damn often due to Aftermath combined with Focus Sash. Still, things like Kyurem-B and other bulky monsters always beat Electrode, and if 'Trode crits, it is a tie at worst, but it was fun to use as it tied with FEAR-users regardless and defeated other silly things handily.

    However, with Sash banned, no reason to use 'Trode anymore, despite it beats most Whimsicott variants as well as other stallers without attacking moves.

    However, since activity in 1vs1 died down, I rarely play it anymore.
  18. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    Activity in 1v1 died down? I've never had trouble finding a battle and I've seen lots of different people.
  19. Redless

    Redless

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    No, taunt wouldn't help against meta. In this case, earthquake would be the move to have on the set. There's o reason why you can't run taunt and earthquake, though! And with custap, you aren't locked into moves, so you can even burst turn one for the damage. If for whatever reason you do want to run a choice item, use band, because metal burst has normal priority, and will fail if something happens with aggron out speeding.
    I agree. I really preferred 1v1 with sash because I fealt that it gave the metagame a lot more diversity. With sash, you could use your favorite Pokemon and win a good portion of matches, whereas now it seems like most of the time you will lose if you try and use anything besides one of the top ten Pokemon.
  20. electricwolf

    electricwolf

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    I've been having a good run with Lum Berry Jirachi:

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi@Lum Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spd
    Jolly Nature

    Body Slam
    Iron Head
    Drain Punch
    Ice Punch

    If Drain Punch or Ice Punch aren't going to 2HKO, go for parahax.


    Probably shouldn't have posted this here, suddenly every set seems out to get me :(
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  21. Torterragatr

    Torterragatr

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    This is the main 1v1 set I use:

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 244 HP / 62 Def / 108 SAtk / 94 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Torment
    - Substitute
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Pulse

    A TormenTran with an offensive twist. I made the EVs myself (I think). The 62 Defense EVs allow Heatran to always avoid the OHKO from Sash Machamp, and the Special Defense was useful for something but I forget because this was made a long time ago. The rest is dumped into Special Attack for extra power. Magma Storm is the key to the set; its accuracy is lackluster, but it hits through Sturdy. Torment and Substitute are Heatran's responses to more defensive or setup strategies, as they usually don't carry more than one move to hurt it; Heatran can even effectively use Torment against, say, Latios, whose only other usable move against it lowers its stats. Dragon Pulse is Heatran's best bet against opposing dragons like the aforementioned Latios or other Fire resists, or if you need an accurate finishing move. Lum Berry protects against Breloom Spore and DynamicPunch hax. This will almost always lose against Earthquake users or more defensive TormenTran, but it's otherwise pretty solid; it has a decent chance of beating Whimsicott or Jirachi if your luck is good.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  22. ErzaVsErza

    ErzaVsErza

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    I usually use Haxorus and Azumarill.
    Azumarill @Custap Berry
    -Belly Drum
    -Super Power
    -Waterfall
    -Ice Punch

    It can beat a lot of Pokémon in 1v1 if you anticipate adversary's move, but its worst adversary stays Whimiscott
  23. voidzone

    voidzone

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    One set I've used recently with the most success

    "Trapdoor"
    Hydreigon@Dragon Gem
    -Taunt
    -Draco Meteor
    -Flamethrower | Earth Power | Dark Pulse
    -Flamethrower | Earth Power | Dark Pulse

    Slot 3&4 depend on the sets, that a currently played, which is changing a lot at most times. Runs well vs. non-scarfed Kyurem-B and Haxorus and 99% of the trolls(always beats Fear Aron, lvl1 Magnemite, Wobuffet, Sheddy, Counter/Mirror Coat Swampert, the Sketchdog and has the upper hand vs. Whimsicott as well, if played right. In addition it is capable of easily OHKOing most things, that are slower and don't resist DM.
    But especially if the metagame is rather trollish at the given moment, it might net a couple of easy wins.
  24. ErzaVsErza

    ErzaVsErza

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    It can be a good set, but it has a lot of counter. Especially the Scarfed Haxorus and Porygon-Z, I think. What about Hydreigon EV's ? 'Cause if you want to taunt the foe, using Aerodactyl is better, I think. Its movepool is better than Hydreigon's one.
  25. voidzone

    voidzone

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    Thanks for your feedback. Sure this has its counters - but who doesn't ? This Set is especially useful vs. slower opponents and most trolls, but it can be handled easily by something fast and very offensive like say - Scarf Haxorus or CB Letarking. But that's simply the game, you can't beat everything with a single set. Scarf Haxorus gets owned by Wobbuffet f.e. while CB King loses to most trolls.
    I don't believe Aerodactyl would be a better choice in this department, since it can't do anything vs. Counter/Mirror Coat abusers, and without CB it doesn't even hit remotely hard enough to beat most offensive threads 1on1.

    Arcticblast edit: I am dumb and forgot that Mirror Coat doesn't work on Hydreigon lol
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2013
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