1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Metagame Gen V Balanced Hackmons

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by verbatim, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. Champion Steve

    Champion Steve

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    234
    Thought I'd post my team and see what you guys think of it. It peaked at the top of the ladder though I'll attribute that to nobody with a high score being on at the time.

    Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 248 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Quiver Dance
    - Baton Pass
    - Magic Coat

    My lead, it Quiver Dances on the first turn while I scout the enemy's ability and then either sets up rocks or baton pass to Palkia on the second turn. Speed is so I have the advantage if we both use switching moves.

    Palkia @ Draco Plate
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Water Spout
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Copycat
    Used to be a Reshiram, but Palkia has less trouble with those annoying Flash Fire Steels. Strategy is simple: use Water Spout then Copycat it for priority. This sets claim to fame is that it very reliably defeats Imposter Chansey.

    Slaking @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Illusion
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Crunch
    - Drain Punch
    - Belly Drum
    Classic set: pretend to be Shedinja, Belly Drum on the switch. These three moves OHKO most things at +6 and Illusion blocks Imposter. The only thing it struggles with are Unaware mons and Shedinja so these must be softened up beforehand.

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rapid Spin
    - Whirlwind
    - Magic Coat
    This set is designed to easily counter Shedinja with its immunity to Endeavor and can also phaze most bulky set-up sweepers. Turboblaze is to prey on noobs who don't pay close attention to the log. Also it sounds cooler.

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Imposter
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Heart Swap
    - Substitute
    - Magic Coat
    - Baton Pass
    The Imposter Chansey set we know and love.

    Shedinja @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Endeavor
    - Ice Shard
    - Safeguard
    - Rain Dance
    A lot of Sand teams rely on their weather to deal with Sturdinja so if it has been removed, Shedinja can come in after a kill and proceed to be invulnerable again. It also provides a nice Illusion for Slaking.

    I'm interested in your thoughts.
  2. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    Hey, I'm new. I just started a few days ago on PS and I've been mostly playing BH. I have a few different teams. I may have battled some of the posters in the thread. I've had a lot of success with a few things:

    • Using Magic Coat on my lead Shedinja to start the battle. It often messes up opponents.
    • The Normalize Gengar set with Skill Swap. I also use Switcheroo and Heart Swap to mess up opponents.
    • Some obvious ones: Prankster Groudon, Contrary Specs Reshiram, No Guard Rayquaza, SimpleGlow Mewtwo, etc.

    Also, based on a message I saw in chat, I made a Balanced Hackmons team using no Ubers. It's sort of rain-based; I use Drizzle Light Ball Pikachu, lol.

    As far as your team, Champion Steve, I like it. Rain Dance Shedinja is a nice touch, and that Slaking gets me every time. Why is your Palkia Prankster, though?
  3. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,399
    As he states, it's so he can copycat his own water spout, which is helpful, since it then becomes hugely powerful and priority. I have to ask, though-why not just tail glow>recover, and surf/hydro pump>water spout? That way, you can sweep with +3 prankster STAB water moves, which still gives you plenty of power, and of course you've still got dragon plate boosted judgement. I understand that your set requires no setup, but i feel like STAB water spout and dragon plate judgement, as great as they are, aren't powerful enough to sweep with no boosts? (I guess you could run QD with recover, water spout, and dragon plate judgement, too.)
  4. Champion Steve

    Champion Steve

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    234
    Those are good suggestions and the Palkia is the part of the team that is least finished - not long ago it was a Reshiram with a similar set and before that it was a Contrary Kyurem-B.

    To explain my reasoning though: the set is meant to be the receiver of a baton pass from my Deoxys - if it was to use Tail Glow then an imposter could 2HKO it with Judgement meaning I would have to rely on annoying speed ties. The Surf/Hydro Pump/Water Spout choice is a difficult one - Hydro Pump isn't completely accurate and Surf is weaker than Judgement in most occasions. Still, Water Spout needs Recover if you want any kind of back-up plan so idk.

    This set is kinda experimental anyway so there I'm unsure what the optimal options are.
  5. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    Oh, ok. That seems like a good strategy.

    Has anyone tried using Sap Sipper Swampert/Gastrodon? I know it's not that great statistically, but it catches people off guard sometimes and can absorb Spore, which is one of the most common moves in the tier. Same with Flash Fire Esca, Scizor, or Genesect.

    I've also noticed that Landorus-T can work pretty well as a poor man's Groudon.
  6. verbatim

    verbatim Red like Roses
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,334
    Spore isn't an attack, so you don't need to use an otherwise worthless x4 weak pokemon to bait it. That being said, 95% of the time Sap Sipper is overshadowed by Magic Bounce.
  7. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    Yeah, but people don't expect it, and you can switch in to a free attack boost. I do agree that Magic Bounce is better, though.
  8. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Awakened
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,120
    I've used Sap Sipper on a Sub+Swords Dance Tyranitar in sand. I'm constantly hemming and hawing between Sucker Punch and Crunch, though.
    I know Swords Dance and Sap Sipper come across as redundant, but getting a free sub and attack boost on the same turn is pretty nice. Plus, special Contrarymons will usually blast it with Leaf Storm, which again activates Sap Sipper.
    Totally ruined by Mold Breaker, but what isn't?
  9. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,998
    the problem with sap sipper over magic bounce on that is that magic bounce means you are hard to phaze, especially since ttar is bulky enough to be able to have its subs survive most dragon tails
  10. Keldeo DeArtagnan

    Keldeo DeArtagnan

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2012
    Messages:
    46
    Here's a set I use sometimes that's a little gimmicky but it can work:

    Kyurem-Black
    Ability: Prankster
    Sleep Talk
    Outrage
    Copycat
    Dragon Tail

    Since everyone's using Spore all the time, why not make it work for you? Once you're put to sleep you can fire off +1 Outrage and Dragon Tail. I'd use Rest except I got really ticked off every time sleep talk called up Rest. The only problem is waking up too early, but you can also Copycat your outrages too. If I remember correctly, if your last move was sleep talk, Copycat will copy whatever Sleep Talk used, not Sleep Talk itself. The only problem it that it's pretty hard to stop once it gets going, which makes it all that more dangerous when Imposter Blissey switches in, and you're out of luck because I can't think of much that shuts it down completely other than Shedinja or Ferrothorn.
  11. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    That's pretty nice. I haven't seen that particular set before, but it seems relatively useful. What item do you use?

    This made me want to look for more moves that I could exploit with Prankster besides Nature Power, Heart Swap, Copycat, and status ailment moves, and I didn't find much. Prankster Minimize seemed nice though. It could possibly put a halt to a sweep at some point in time.
  12. Champion Steve

    Champion Steve

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    234
    A single Minimize is kind of a risky way to stop a sweep. If you were going to use Prankster to stop it then you would be as well using Heart Swap or Spore. Minimize mons are really planning to stick around for a while anyway so Simple or something that blocks status such as Magic Bounce or Poison Heal is probably more effective than priority stat boosts.

    PS. Don't use a Minimize mon with Poison Heal please. I'm begging you here.
  13. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Winner of the Biggest Dork Competition 2014
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,247
    itt we learn that Champion Steve has yet to master the art of Skill Swap

    Skill Swap is actually a great move on Pokemon whose abilities affect the entire field (in Singles). This includes auto-weather abilities, No Guard, Cloud Nine and Damp. Other abilities are nice to Skill Swap as well - Simple (versus Contrary 'mons), Normalize, Defeatist, etc.

    By the way, I'm trying out Trick Room soon. Come at me. Never mind
  14. Keldeo DeArtagnan

    Keldeo DeArtagnan

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2012
    Messages:
    46
    I used to use Life Orb but it tends to kill him from the recoil at a bad time, and he takes too much damage from stealth rock as it is. Usually I go with leftovers.
  15. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    Yeah, I really like using Normalize Gengar, although I suppose Giratina would work too.
  16. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    I've tried trick room before, but I prefer this Dialga as a standalone sweeper, like OTR reuniclus in OU.
    Dialga @ Dragon Gem/Iron Ball
    Trait: Contrary
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Draco Meteor
    - Trick Room
    - Overheat
    - Toxic/Substitute
    Basically, set up trick room and sweep with contrary boosted moves. The last slot can be for shedinja, or to punish opponents trying to stall trick room turns with switching.
  17. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    A few sets:

    Ajnidehs (Gengar) @ Armor Fossil
    Trait: Normalize
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Skill Swap
    - Switcheroo
    - Heart Swap
    - Shadow Ball

    The idea is to Skill Swap onto a powerful sweeper and force a switch. Also, the Switcheroo can cripple an opponent as well. I've found Heart Swap useful too as an alternative method, and Shadow Ball is for Lugia, mostly.

    Yummy (Swampert) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sap Sipper
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Toxic
    - Bulk Up
    - Aqua Tail
    - Earthquake

    My Sap Sipper Swampert. I know it isn't very good as far as moves are concerned, or stats for that matter, but it throws opponents off and thrives in a rain situation. I use it on a team based on Drizzle. Give me suggestions if you have any.

    @lokt: Why the Iron Ball on Dialga? Just for slowness? The Lagging Tail does the same thing and doesn't have other side effects.
  18. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,399
    The main problem with both above sets is that, without prankster, gengar can't outspeed speed-boosting sweepers, which means that heart swap and skill swap are mostly pointless. You're basically stopping slow, bulky sweepers, but with only one attack move, you're probably not able to sweep with those boosts. Also, armor fossil trick? Why not just run knock off at that point?

    Why not just give him choice scarf? Suddenly, you can actually outspeed some sweepers, and trick becomes legitimately threatening, in the right situation. Also consider totally scrapping that set.

    As for the swampert:First, coil over bulk up. Never hurts to have a 100% accurate aqua tail, and it can combat the odd evasion booster. Secondly, i'd take toxic out entirely, and maybe replace it with recover/amnesia/substitute/baton pass. Recover stops the enemy from beating you through attrition, while amnesia gives you a weapon against special attackers. Substitute blocks imposter and trick. If you feel an unaware pokemon or a prankster heart swap pokemon coming in,baton pass to something that can deal with them better. Or just give another sweeper boosts.. Finally, i'd recommend ice punch over aqua tail. The immediate power of aqua tail is nice, but there's very little you wouldn't hit with earthquake that you'd rather hit with aqua tail. Ice punch can let you actually damage things like contrary latios.

    Edit: Aqua tail doesn't hit reshiram harder than earthquake, because dragon resists water, but not ground. Any target not covered by earthquake is going to be covered by ice punch (or, come to think of it, icicle crash.) It's not that big a deal if you've got rain up, but if you don't, it could be a problem. As for those other moves, there's no real reason to use them instead of earthquake, except for a couple SE targets, so that's why. The problem with toxic orb is that it confers an immunity to spore, but if you're fine with that... it works, i guess. Although then you could just use toxic.
  19. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,660
    tehy has a point; if you want to go for Trick, you shouldn't just give the opponent a useless item, you should give them one that cripples their Pokemon, like Black Sludge or something. This also helps to deal with walls like Shuckle or Giratina by removing their Leftovers.
  20. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    384
    I wasn't thinking about Coil, so that's a good point.

    Aqua Tail is mostly there because I'm often using it in rain, but why wouldn't I use something with higher base power over Ice Punch? Ice Punch doesn't hit Contrary Reshiram for super effective damage, or either Kyurem form for that matter. I don't see why I would use that over Coil + Bolt Strike/Hi Jump Kick/Megahorn/Stone Edge. (Just throwing out moves that are really powerful with slightly bad accuracy)

    Gengar: Yeah, I changed it to Toxic Orb yesterday even before I read these posts. Choice Scarf is a good idea, though. Thanks for all your suggestions.
  21. Aeongate

    Aeongate

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    I literally made an account just so I could post here. I absolutely love this tier! You'd think it would be less diverse than the others, but in reality any Poke can run any set - even Shedinja, the most one-dimensional Pokemon ever, it seems, has some variety.

    Here's my current team:
    Show Hide
    Deoxys-Speed @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    Timid Nature
    - Imprison
    - Magic Coat
    - Spore
    - Stealth Rock/Spikes

    Generic Deoxys-S lead is generic, other than Imprison which is a nasty surprise to those hoping to Magic Coat my hazards or my Spore. Can't decide which hazard is best, but SR seems most common so I'll stick with that for Imprison's sake. This set commonly looses to Taunt Prankster Deoxys-S, as the first move I go for is Imprison, but otherwise it works a total charm.


    Gengar @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Normalize
    Timid Nature
    - Skill Swap
    - Judgment
    - Aura Sphere
    - Shell Smash

    This is one heck of a sweeper. Nobody expects Normalize, and many confused opponents will stay in and switch up moves, assuming that I'm an Illusion of some kind. With just two turns of set-up, it wrecks any team not carrying something with Shadow Sneak, and Skill Swap almost always guarantees that you'll get one.


    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    Timid Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Substitute
    - Recover
    - Dragon Pulse

    Provided Blissey/Chansey doesn't switch in before you get a Sub up, Dialga wrecks face - slowly but surely boosting with QDs and healing up again with Recover.


    Blissey @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Imposter
    Bold Nature
    - Perish Song
    - Heart Swap
    - Whirlwind
    - Final Gambit

    Standard Imposter Blissey. I like Scarf because I can rape Belly Drum Slaking with it, provided it isn't an Illusion.


    Giratina @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    Timid Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind
    - Shadow Ball

    The bulkiest of the bulky within the tier, sans Blissey and Chansey, and Poison Heal with Toxic Orb means you stick around even longer, plus you're immune to Spore. This means you have plenty of time to Spin hazards and Toxic anything bulky - even if they have Magic Bounce, nothing lost other than the turn.


    Shedinja @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    Lonely Nature
    - Endeavor
    - Ice Shard
    - Safeguard
    - Rain Dance

    And there was me, suggesting this guy was versatile. Oh well. Pretty funny when you killed their last Poke with Toxic and you can just Endeavor/Shard all the things.


    I'm still very new to this tier, so some help with my team would be greatly appreciated.
  22. Toraen

    Toraen

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    61
    Try out Psycho Shift over Toxic on your Giratina, as it goes through Magic Bounce, although you'll sacrifice a turn of Poison Heal recovery.
  23. Champion Steve

    Champion Steve

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    234
    Just want to say that Blissey will live a +6 Slaking Extreme Speed and OHKO back if you lose the speed-tie. If you go for Chansey then it takes just a little over 50% damage while also being insanely bulky in general. The only time I can see Scarf mattering is if your Blissey is low on health or against one of the Kyurems.
  24. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,998
    First of all, even though sturdinja is mah babbeh, i just don't think it is particularly good in the current metagame, because all reasonable teams have multiple ways of easily dealing with it, so i would recommend another mon of your choice in that slot. (if you dont change it, use magic coat > safeguard on it)

    Next seconding eviolite chansey over scarf blissey, however this leaves you weak to very fast and strong set up sweepers who win the speed tie against you. Because of this i would recommend switching your giratina set to a prankster set to stop these sweepers.

    Set:
    Giratina @ lum berry/leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    Bold Nature
    - Magic coat/Substitute/Whirlwind/Rapid Spin
    - Spore
    - Heart Swap
    - Baton Pass/Skill Swap
    If you replace shedinja, I don't feel your team would really need the spin support too much, so i only slashed in rapid spin... if you choose to go with whirlwind in the top spot id advise running skill swap over baton pass, as now you aren't vulnerable to bulky set up sweepers continuing to set up as you can phaze them out, and skill swap lets you beat magic bouncers and be annoying with sporephazing.
    Especially becuase youre only running one magic bouncer, i do think magic coat is your best option for the first slot though
  25. Aeongate

    Aeongate

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    Thanks for the advice - I've actually mixed around things a lot though, and I've been experimenting with some weird stuff, including the ridiculous Assist Prankster Kyurem-B team. However, I wanted to come up with a sweeper that had an answer to pretty much anything the opponent could do to stop it, and be near unstoppable with paramount prediction. It should stop the following:
    • Imposter Chansey/Blissey
    • Unaware Heart Swap
    • Prankster Heart Swap
    • Prankster Spore
    So far, the best way to counter Imposter seems to be using Spooky Plate + Judgment. Substitute comes a close second though. Unaware Heat Swap can be stopped either by outright KO (unlikely) or Taunt. Prankster Heart Swap (usually Giratina or Groudon) is as simple as running Punishment, provided you don't give your Poke any defence boosts. Prankster Spore looses to Magic Bounce/Coat, or a Sub you had previously.

    I can't seem to find a way to build an effective sweeper that can counter all those. What do you all suggest I prioritise?

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)