Gen V Balanced Hackmons

[phoopes]

So an update on my situation, I've figured out that the ladder is pretty bad. I'm 5-1, the one loss coming because every move I have for Sturdy Shedinja (save Tricking it a Choice Scarf) missed, plus an ExtremeSpeed crit on my Stealth Rock setter was a OHKO. So yeah I've gotten back into the game pretty well but I'm pretty bored since the competition I've been facing hasn't exactly been stellar.

 

[Redless]

I completely agree. I am in a similar situation, and at low ranks most people are weak for a person who played mainly before the ladder reset. All you can do is keep laddering and hope your loss doesn't weigh you down enough to prevent you from eventually facing good people. In my opinion, the average BH player on Pokemon showdown needs to step it up a notch.

 

[MJB]

Indeed there is a problem that the current ladder isn't as good as most of us would like it to be, though i feel this is due to a lack of player base. There are however some incredibly competent ladder players out there, you just have to find them :P Or of course you could always PM them. I myself am generally up to a BH battle a lot of the time if you catch me :P.

 

[CashKP]

So for everyone complaining about no competition, try to go on from like 5-9 pm EST. Id say normally 3-5 of us normally play then and we are all top 5 caliber players with over 2k score. We would be glad to play anyone who is just coming back and wants to see how the meta has changed. We also normally discuss and test out new sets all the time if you would like to join in on that as well.

 

[ntiller]

I can second this. Flint, Gtfo, Adrian, Klang, Opatos and myself are all on pretty regularly, usually in the afternoon/evening (EST). There are also a bunch of other good players who don't go on as much anymore.

 

[verbatim]

Okay I already know u guys are going to get on my ass about this set, but sometimes rolling the dice aint such a bad thing especially when the odds are in your favor. Since most no guard pokes run inferno and zap cannon and other annoying crap, hydration gira will not care.
Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Minimize
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Rest

Out of curiosity, who are you passing this too and why?

 

[phoopes]

Yes I actually ran into three competent players on the ladder in a row and got my butt whooped, haha. I'll try something new probably when I get back from vacation.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Adapt to the common threats in the ladder and you shall conquer.

 

[Aeongate]

I've been messing around with a Trick Room team - considering nearly every Poke in the tier is going to have maxed out speed, you should be able to "outslow" with even some of the faster sweepers. Has anyone else tried this so far, or is the strategy too gimmicky with too much setup?

 

[Klang]

I've been messing around with a Trick Room team - considering nearly every Poke in the tier is going to have maxed out speed, you should be able to "outslow" with even some of the faster sweepers. Has anyone else tried this so far, or is the strategy too gimmicky with too much setup?

The issue with trick room in balanced hackmons is that pretty much everything, while running max speed, also runs maximum bulk and usually has a recovery move. Because of this, trick room turns are far easier to stall out here than in other tiers (Especially if the opponent has Giratina or Lugia on their team) and it's usually not worth the effort to set it up. That being said however, trick room does screw over most hyper offence teams in the meta, though these are far rarer in comparison.

While I haven't had much experience with trick room myself the strategy would probably work best with something like adaptability or tinted lens life orb escavalier which has a very strong and fast gyro ball right off the bat.

 

[Garn]

I'm new to this tier and I've done just over 20 battles so far, and before anyone asks, I really don't feel like reading 50+ pages before I express my view of my concerns

I want somebody to convince me that this metagame isn't too centralized around spore and sturdy Shedinja

I've often found myself and others sacrificing moveslots for sleep talk or using a status orb, and myself using sand and/or hazards to try to get rid of Shedinja and fail
I'm tempted to just get Golurk with mold breaker pursuit @rockyhelmet helmet instead of using sand/hail or hazards to get rid of them

I think that this tier and hackmons should include CaP to open up a few more options for teams; all of them are Persistent, Mountaineer, ShadowStrike; 80 BP physical ghost move 95% acc 50% chance lower def 10 pp, Paleo Wave; 85 BP special rock move 100% acc 20% chance lower attack 15 pp and the CaP pokemon themselves

Also something tells me that eviolite imposter Chansey is better than she should be able to be; I'm not saying that imposter is bad, but that Chansey+eviolite is when its transformed because it pretty much gets 3-10 times harder to kill with direct damage than you are; and I was actually thinking of using a Regirock or Steelix in this tier until I thought of Chansey, which would have 250 base hp 200 base defense and 65 or 100 special defense before eviolite, which would be pretty much impossible for me to kill outside of technician specs vacuum wave Keldeo if it crits; I was actually using a shuckle earlier and I'd forgotten about Chansey somehow. In fact, I think Chansey also centralizes the metagame quite a bit, you could just say use knock off or wonder room but then you use a turn to turn it from Chansey into a marginally less bulky Blissey, and if you put it to sleep you often can't kill it unless theres a big difference between your offensive and def/spd stats.
edit: got rid of the autolink where it said rocky helmet

 

[Arcticblast]

What, you've never used Magic Coat, which reflects both Spore and hazards (die Shedinja die)?

I've personally thought about establishing a BH+CAP metagame before, but in all the things that BH gains from CAP don't really make much of a difference.

Regarding Imposter anything - make sure your team can beat itself, basically. If you really want to keep it at bay, you have a couple interesting options on hand, which will be in hide tags below.

Judgment Sweeper

There are many variations on the common build (Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Skill Swap + Normalize, etc.), but the core idea behind them is the same: use Judgment and a Plate to get a high-powered attack. Imposter Pokemon will only get a Normal-type Judgment (since its type depends on the plate the user holds) while the other Pokemon can continue to sweep. This is best on Ghost-types, who aren't affected by Normal moves. Here's a sample set:

Giratina-Origin @ Draco Plate / Spooky Plate
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magic Coat
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Aura Sphere

Magic Coat reflects Spores, hazards, Taunt, etc., the other moves are fairly basic. Draco Plate and Spooky Plate both have their merits, and can be interchanged based on the team you're using.

Type Self-Advantage

This is more of a concept than a dedicated Imposter counter, but it's still legitimate. It involves using Pokemon that can hit themselves for super effective damage. Since this is very basic, I'll jump straight to a couple sets:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Trick

Scarf Kyurem-W makes for an incredible late-game sweeper, and with the Scarf it just blasts right through Imposter Chansey.

Archeops @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Brave Bird / Wood Hammer / Hi Jump Kick / Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird / Wood Hammer / Hi Jump Kick / Flare Blitz
- Magic Coat

Magic Guard Archeops is one of the most entertaining Pokemon to use in the entire metagame. A Flying-type that doesn't take damage from SR and has a chance to 2HKO Giratina using an unboosted neutral move (after SR)? Yes please!
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 214-253 (42.54 - 50.29%) -- 48.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There are also other Pokemon that can deal with Chansey fairly well - Poison Heal Regigigas (without Psycho Shift) stands out among them for easily wearing Chansey down.

But hey, welcome to Smogon, and thanks for playing one of the oldest Other Metagames!

 

[Adrian Marin]

Killing Shedinja:

Shedinja's are extremely frustrating in the beginning, but as a matter of fact, high-level players are not having an easy time using them because of its unreliability. Using a Ghost Pokemon to block Endeavors, hazards, Rocky Helmet and crippling spinners is a great way to stop Shedinja. .


Killing Imposters:

Having a Pokemon that can cripple or kill imposters on their own is mandatory on any team, there are many variations on doing so such as using Draco Plate Judgment on a Pokemon that is weak to dragon and lacks recovery, Perish trapping an imposter that cannot escape when you can, and using special sets such as Sporetail Poison Heal Regigigas.


Stopping Mold Breaker Spore:

Using Magic Coat on leads is usually a reliable way to stop the common Mold Deoxys-s (if the log screams breaks the mold, use Magic Coat, if it doesn't, switch to your Magic Bouncer.) I am saddened that you actually said "sacrifice to use a status orb" to be honest, status orb users are extremely useful, blocking Spores is not the only reason to use them. Usefulness goes from using 140 bp facades to psychoshifting burns or poisons.

I hope this enlightens people who are unfamiliar with countering two of one of the most common Pokemons in the metagame and stopping one of the most dangerous moves. This was sent from my tab so please bare the faulty writing.

 

[Garn]

Hide

What, you've never used Magic Coat, which reflects both Spore and hazards (die Shedinja die)?

I've personally thought about establishing a BH+CAP metagame before, but in all the things that BH gains from CAP don't really make much of a difference.

Regarding Imposter anything - make sure your team can beat itself, basically. If you really want to keep it at bay, you have a couple interesting options on hand, which will be in hide tags below.

Judgment Sweeper

There are many variations on the common build (Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, Skill Swap + Normalize, etc.), but the core idea behind them is the same: use Judgment and a Plate to get a high-powered attack. Imposter Pokemon will only get a Normal-type Judgment (since its type depends on the plate the user holds) while the other Pokemon can continue to sweep. This is best on Ghost-types, who aren't affected by Normal moves. Here's a sample set:

Giratina-Origin @ Draco Plate / Spooky Plate
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magic Coat
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Aura Sphere

Magic Coat reflects Spores, hazards, Taunt, etc., the other moves are fairly basic. Draco Plate and Spooky Plate both have their merits, and can be interchanged based on the team you're using.

Type Self-Advantage

This is more of a concept than a dedicated Imposter counter, but it's still legitimate. It involves using Pokemon that can hit themselves for super effective damage. Since this is very basic, I'll jump straight to a couple sets:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Trick

Scarf Kyurem-W makes for an incredible late-game sweeper, and with the Scarf it just blasts right through Imposter Chansey.

Archeops @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Brave Bird / Wood Hammer / Hi Jump Kick / Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird / Wood Hammer / Hi Jump Kick / Flare Blitz
- Magic Coat

Magic Guard Archeops is one of the most entertaining Pokemon to use in the entire metagame. A Flying-type that doesn't take damage from SR and has a chance to 2HKO Giratina using an unboosted neutral move (after SR)? Yes please!
252 Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 214-253 (42.54 - 50.29%) -- 48.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There are also other Pokemon that can deal with Chansey fairly well - Poison Heal Regigigas (without Psycho Shift) stands out among them for easily wearing Chansey down.

But hey, welcome to Smogon, and thanks for playing one of the oldest Other Metagames!

I have used magic coat before its just too unreliable for my level of prediction, and Shedinja tends to die 1/5 times that I face it since the opponent usually gets rid of the guy whos supposed to take care of it or because they either use volt switch on the sand streamer, scrappy spin, rain dance on the first turn Shedinja is sent out, and they always have a lum berry to get rid of status during the few times I manage to be able to use it without dying or something, then it uses recycle or endeavor on the sand streamer then I get pursuited so I lose my weather to sun/rain; and on another note, I learned the hard way that multi-hit moves don't break sturdy

my problem with imposter Chansey is that it constrains your options for sweeping so much, for example I used a qd Latios with soul dew and without contrary and I could barely reliably 2hko Chansey with dpulse, then it used qd and I got ohkoed; it prevents me from reliably using qd/coil/cp without sub
also I'm not new to Smogon, just this tier and 95+% of the forums

 

[EV]

^Substitute

 

[Keep it Playful]

Hey Garn, Magic Coat does take some prediction, but as Adrian said it's important on leads, most notably against Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze Deo-S (it will say "breaks the mold" in the battle log) and doesn't take much prediction there because there is a very high chance the Deo-S will Spore or lay Hazards.

Sturdy Shedinja is a formidable Pokemon but has many weaknesses and you should always use at least a few of these on any team in Balanced Hackmons.

To KO:
-Sand/Hail
-Stealth Rock/Spikes
-Toxic Spikes
-Leech Seed
-Trick (Toxic/Flame Orb, etc.)
-Partially Trapping Moves (Magma Storm, Whirlpool, Fire Spin, etc.)
-Any attack with Mold Breaker (Pursuit ensures success)
-Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs (for a Physical Attack)
-Teeter Dance/Confuse Ray (50% chance of KO-ing)
-Gastro Acid/Simple Beam + Attack
-Knock Off + Status
-Perish Song

As for Imposter Chansey, it turns any regular sweeper into a bigger, better version so you must resort to Judgment + Plates, Self Super Effective + Scarf, unhappy Frustration, or Substitute. :)

 

[Major Blitz]

Hello everyone i just thought about a set that has massive massive power and can tear throught most things.listen up
Palkia@lum berry/(dat palkia orb)
Ability:Adaptablitily(pun intended)
Max all dem EVs
Spacial rend
Water spout
Rest
Sleep talk
Just remember to have another poke with drizzle
With triple stab coming off a 150bp and 150base sp att you can let your mind be blown by the possible damage.(gonna try it out soon)

 

[Adrian Marin]

You might wanna try using Tinted Lens there, Water Spout in rain kills everything that doesn't resist it.

 

[Major Blitz]

I just ran a quick damage calculation to giratina(cos your gonna run into dis big bad wall most of the time)
Its a 2hko with adaptability spacial rend.though tinted lens is good if u just wanna piss on everything
Just wondering if there could be any other viable item of choice though.

 

[voidzone]

Adaptability / Tinted Lens Rain Spout simply begs for Choice Specs.

 

[Major Blitz]

hmm on showdown i have seen people using arcueses that dont match they display.how do they do this?

 

[Klang]

hmm on showdown i have seen people using arcueses that dont match they display.how do they do this?

Simply select the Arceus sprite that you wish to display in the teambuilder when selecting a Pokemon and change it's ability/items accordingly to get the type you want. For example, if I wanted a Bug Arceus disguised as a Fire Arceus, I would select Arceus-Fire, change it's ability to Multitype, and give it an insect plate.

 

[Vincent]

Any chances of one day Arceus formes (not just the sprite) will be free to use with any item and ability instead of Plate+Multitype?

Something like Giratina-O without Griseous Orb and Levitate, or Meloetta-Piroute.

 

[Snaquaza]

Any chances of one day Arceus formes (not just the sprite) will be free to use with any item and ability instead of Plate+Multitype?

Something like Giratina-O without Griseous Orb and Levitate, or Meloetta-Piroute.

No sorry, I tested it with Arceus Fighting (with plate) with Unaware and it went back to Arceus Normal, I would like it to be possible tho as every other form is usable

 

[Arcticblast]

From what I remember, there's some complicated stuff with Arceus that prevents the formes from being obtained with different items or abilities (remember - it relies on BOTH, not just one).