Gen V Balanced Hackmons

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Hmm I posted it in the creative sets thread but w/e Posion Heal Regigigas/Arceus seems to be a hot topic and this counters them fairly well.

OR

Gengar / Giratina @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Encore
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Destiny Bond

Simple concept really, natural immunities + Prankster Encore. Obviously switching into a Spore will ruin you so if you're worried about that get out into your MB then Gengar for the PranCore. Strong lead too, beats stuff like mold breaker deoxys with sub / encore. Destiny Bond deals with Mold Breakers that you let set up but with this set it's hard for them to set up as most sub up turn one and you can switch Gengar in and encore lock it before it can do damage. Also Sub passing is the shit.

Basically what I'm saying is I don't wanna see stuff banned and this set is cool.

EDIT: Have a bunch of replays of it doing some work. Only one features poison heal unfortunately but w/e.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-53895679
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54037119 lel
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-53894248 Pirouetta <3 (I thought Lugia would Whirlwind so I was just hunting for health k)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-53665733
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-53843821

I'd add more if I came across poison heal but I think you get the point.

 

[ntiller]

Let's wait and see what Gen 6 brings before we start talking about banning anything. While it's possible that both Mold Breaker and Poison Heal are overcentralizing, it seems silly to test it now with a new meta fast approaching.

 

[asterat]

if there were to be a suspect test or whatever, I have outlined what the options may be.

a) Ban nothing
b) Ban only mold breaker
c) Ban only poison heal
d) Ban both poison heal and mold breaker
e) Ban poison heal from arceus, slaking, and regigigas
f) Ban mold breaker and poison heal from arceus, slaking, and regigigas

note- mold breaker includes teravolt and turboblaze

If I was voting on this I would probably go with option f. I don't really care for mold breaker, and those strong facades are a bitch. Meloetta-P, snorlax, and maybe bouffalant will become the tier's new normal poison healers.

 

[Redless]

Mewtwo @. Lum/lefties/mental herb
Nature: Modest/timid
Ability: Game Breaker
Stored Overpower
Shell Smash
Spore
Substitute/Sacred sword/Bug Buzz

This too seems ban worthy, although I suppose that stuff with prankster encore can beat it, as well as things immune to the moves. If they choose something other than bug buzz as move four, then flame orb tomb walls it.

Speaking of flame orb tomb, this set stops this Mewtwo and many of the poison heal pals straight in their tracks.
Adrian came up with this set, I think.

No Weak (spiritomb) @. Flame orb
Ability: magic guard
Nature: Something defensive that blah blah blah defense EV maximization blah blah probably Bold
Gastro acid
Recovery
Foul play
Some extra support move like aromatherapy or knock off or psycho shift or spore etc.

This thing checks the gigas and his friends really well. Also beats many m2. I have already said those things so I am repeating myself.

About the bans, can we ban mold break on only mons with offensive moves? I feel like stall is getting buffed enough from these bans.

 

[Vincent]

I really don't want any bans, but if this is the way to go, i suggest only banning Mold Breaker when used with a Boosting Stat Move, for the simple reason that until now Mold Breaker wasn't any scary and now because Unaware glitch was fixed the ability should be banned?

It's real problem is its sinergy with boosting stat moves, making you slice through Unawares (and anything else) as hot knife on butter. I don't think it should be banned when combined with offensive moves (like Redless told above) because with offensive moves, but without boosting stat moves it would be walled anyway, and because it would be one way less to kill Sturdinja.

 

[Keep it Playful]

I really don't want any bans, but if this is the way to go, i suggest only banning Mold Breaker when used with a Boosting Stat Move, for the simple reason that until now Mold Breaker wasn't any scary and now because Unaware glitch was fixed the ability should be banned?

It's real problem is its sinergy with boosting stat moves, making you slice through Unawares (and anything else) as hot knife on butter. I don't think it should be banned when combined with offensive moves (like Redless told above) because with offensive moves, but without boosting stat moves it would be walled anyway, and because it would be one way less to kill Sturdinja.

The boosting would only partially be stopped if that ban were put in place, because a Mold Breaker mon could be Baton Passed a Shell Smash with a few good plays and we'd be back to where we began.

 

[Parzival]

I find that Mold Breaker as an ability (as well as, obviously, its snowclones) is inherently detrimental to the game. Its ability, if you'll pardon the pun, to negate that of the opponent grants an unfair advantage to whoever is using it.
Granted that doing just that, creating unfair advantage, albeit by usually different means, is entirely the point of BH, I must bring up the next point: It discourages creativity.
It gets difficult, sometimes, to play some new, otherwise perfectly viable strategy or another (notably anything with Magic Bounce or Unaware) only to see it obliterated by Moldy Sweeper after Moldy Sweeper.
Creativity is the heart of BH, guys. Let's not kill it.

 

[Rumors]

Just to get an idea of how silly PH Gigas/Slaking/Arceus are, I made a team containing two of each of them and nothing else. Considering that I spent about 30 seconds putting the team together and it's probably not very well thought out, I shouldn't be winning nearly as much as I do with it. The only thing that stop reliably stops that team are stuff that I forgot to pack counters for that I'd normally include. And sometimes I don't need anything other than my lead Gigas either to destroy my opponent or put them beyond winning by the time they take it down.

The team took no effort to build and little effort to play. It's absurd. I thought maybe the "ban PH" was an overreaction, but then I tried this. There's no reason I should be doing this well with such a crappy, poorly thought out team.

And if you're curious, this is what I threw together. The only tweak I made to it was putting Hail on the first Arceus to jack with weather teams.

Half-assed, too successful PH team

Suspect Test (Regigigas) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Protect (More reliably ensures Toxic Orb triggers over Magic Guard)
- Facade
- Spore
- Dragon Tail

Slaking @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Substitute
- Shift Gear
- Dragon Tail

Arceus @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hail (Screws with weather teams except the rare Hail team)
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- ExtremeSpeed
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Shadow Sneak (This set is probably retarded, yet it works because PH.)

Slaking @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Dragon Tail
- Drain Punch
- Spore

Arceus @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Psycho Shift
- Recover
- Perish Song

 

[nyph]

Solution to mold breaker and (to a lesser extent)poison heal: Sleep clause.

 

[ntiller]

Let's think about what banning things does.

If we ban Mold Breaker, we basically make it impossible to ever get hazards down more than maybe once against a good player. At least investing in a Scrappy Spinner required an entire ability slot: Magic Bounce in a Mold Breaker-less meta is arguably just as good as Scrappy Spin at keeping your side of the field clear, with so much added utility it's not even funny. This in turn could mean that battles are more likely to last forever: Hazards are one of the factors that force battles to eventually end.

If we ban Poison Heal and do not ban Mold Breaker, Spore becomes insane. Sure, Magic Guard and Insomnia are both abilities. However, they are both much more specific than Poison Heal is and make it much easier for your Spore absorber to happen to lose to their sporer. I like Spore teams, but without strong counters to those teams that are playable in their own right, the meta would likely overcentralize.

If we ban anything, we should ban Facade. This does not cripple defensive Poison Healers at all (leaving a very good check to Spore in existence) but gets rid of the threat of Gigas/Slaking/Arceus. By removing the majority of offensive Poison Healers, we also buff Imposters which happen to be generally good answers to the Mold Breaker sweepers people are complaining about.

The problem with Poison Heal Gigas/Arc/Slaking is that are simultaneously an offensive threat (and a very good one), a Sporemon, an Anti-Imposter, and an Anti-Sporemon. They are an offensive threat that beats all the things that check most offensive threats AND they can beat other offensive threats. They need to go, but Poison Heal as an ability does not: BH without good checks to Spore would suck. The one defining characteristic they have in common is Facade. Facade isn't really used for anything else. Ergo, banning Facade makes more sense than banning PH.

 

[Keep it Playful]

Let's think about what banning things does.

If we ban Mold Breaker, we basically make it impossible to ever get hazards down more than maybe once against a good player. At least investing in a Scrappy Spinner required an entire ability slot: Magic Bounce in a Mold Breaker-less meta is arguably just as good as Scrappy Spin at keeping your side of the field clear, with so much added utility it's not even funny. This in turn could mean that battles are more likely to last forever: Hazards are one of the factors that force battles to eventually end.

If we ban Poison Heal and do not ban Mold Breaker, Spore becomes insane. Sure, Magic Guard and Insomnia are both abilities. However, they are both much more specific than Poison Heal is and make it much easier for your Spore absorber to happen to lose to their sporer. I like Spore teams, but without strong counters to those teams that are playable in their own right, the meta would likely overcentralize.

If we ban anything, we should ban Facade. This does not cripple defensive Poison Healers at all (leaving a very good check to Spore in existence) but gets rid of the threat of Gigas/Slaking/Arceus. By removing the majority of offensive Poison Healers, we also buff Imposters which happen to be generally good answers to the Mold Breaker sweepers people are complaining about.

The problem with Poison Heal Gigas/Arc/Slaking is that are simultaneously an offensive threat (and a very good one), a Sporemon, an Anti-Imposter, and an Anti-Sporemon. They are an offensive threat that beats all the things that check most offensive threats AND they can beat other offensive threats. They need to go, but Poison Heal as an ability does not: BH without good checks to Spore would suck. The one defining characteristic they have in common is Facade. Facade isn't really used for anything else. Ergo, banning Facade makes more sense than banning PH.

A Facade ban would turn the Gigas down from race mode to sport mode. It would quickly evolve into a set which replaced Facade with Return/Frustration, which has at max 102 base power. I know 102 isn't 140, but it's not all that far off, especially once those gears get shifting. This set would be even more anti-Imposter, with the guessing game of happiness for opposing Chanseys/Blisseys.

 

[asterat]

I agree banning PH overall would be kind of sucky. It's just the normal types that are the issue. I say ban them with poison heal for reasons right above. In terms of mold breaker, I think mold breaker spore is the biggest issue. If we banned that too, it would be pretty good.

 

[Adrian Marin]

A good solution would be to ban PH on normal types (the only reason why you'll give a normal type PH is for offensive reasons) and disallow Mold Breaker with attacking moves, almost all Mold Breakers in the past did not use attacks anyway, banning Mold Breaker Spore will also kill the legitimate Moldy Spore + Anti-Orb user core strategy, not a good idea. All in all, the most harmless option would be to ban PH on normal types, and make Mold Breakers unable to use attacks, this'll bring BH back to how it was before, a perfectly balanced meta, it'll be almost identical with the exception of OP PH's and Mold Breaker without attacks, which was never really used anyway.

 

[Vincent]

There's more ways to handle Mold Breaker Spore than Mold Breaker sweepers: Insomnia, Magic Guard + Orb, Poison Heal + Orb, Prankster or some pokemon faster by another means, Lum Berry, even Sleep Talk lol

Mold Breaker Sweeper after a Shell Smash (or other boosting move) is just stoped by Imposter (if the Imposter wins the speed tie, and if this Sweeper is not Anti-Imposter) or some kind of Prankster (Destiny Bond, Encore, Haze, Heart Swap, whatever), or some very specific wall that survive even without Unaware.

 

[ntiller]

The thing is that these proposed bans seem very complex and set a bad precedent. I also just want to add that banning Moldy Spore or implementing sleep clause (both of which were suggested here) is completely ridiculous. Spore is a fundamental pillar of BH and that strategy should not be lightly discarded, especially when Spore is not even really the issue.

The issue is that PH Facade users do like 4 things, and they do them as well or better than anything else. I do not think Moldy Sweepers are really an issue: you have spore and imposter and constant offensive pressure as ways of dealing with them.

While banning Facade would make offensive Poison Healers "even more" anti-imposter, they are already anti-imposter to the point where Regigigas basically always beats Chanseygigas (Facade isn't even the important move in this particular situation- it's Spore). This ban would, however, reduce the number of Regigigas running around, indirectly buffing Chansey. Also, losing 40 base power is generally very significant. There is a reason that basically all physical (and the vast majority of) Poison Healers are Normal: Facade is much better than any other offensive move a PHmon could be using.

 

[Redless]

Ban Ph -> mold break gets even better
Ban mold break -> hazard setting becomes impossible
Ban magic bounce -> spore becomes too good
Ban sleep moves -> finally a balanced meta except
Ban imposter -> there we are

^ I have been considering hosting a tourney of this, but eh... To complex for actual BH, at least at this point.

Overall, I would say that sleep clause in any form is a bad thing. I feel like having one spore to cripple an opponent would be a bad thing because I don't like the idea of making a sacrifice of one Pokemon to get spore (which could be ANYWHERE) off my back is not fun. I hate how it works in ou, where my ninetales essentially gets a free Mon out of the match with one move. I think that either we should preserve spore in its current state or ban sleep moves altogether. Sleep clause is something I hate. If spore roams free, at least you don't sacrifice one Mon to it, you sacrifice a few or none and then bring in a Mon immune to sleep. I don't feel like I am really eloquently explaining why I dislike sleep clause, but my two cents is that we should just ban all sleep moves more than we should implement sleep clause.

Although we might wait a few weeks before we ban too hastily.

 

[Rumors]

The thing with PH is that Facade isn't the only problem. You don't even need Facade to fully exploit PH. Why? Well, a PHer can also...

-Is immune to statuses, so can throw their own statuses around without fear, most notably Spore. Note that even Magic Bounce isn't fully immune (Moldy doesn't even need to exist to bypass their immunity) and can't just toss Spores around without concern.

-Can continually phaze the other team while recovering HP. Combine with hazards and/or status and the victim is essentially stuck waiting for their counter to be forced in.

-They can adjust their HP IVs and EVs to ensure PH recovers exactly 25% HP, allowing them to seriously abuse Sub and Protect.

-They can also use Sub to block Gastro/Worry/Simple, the three moves that are otherwise your best bet to ensure they go down.

-As long as too many boosts aren't out, most common PHers are bulky enough to take a hit and then either status, phaze, or KO a boosted sweeper.

-Can use recoil moves with only slightly more concern than a Magic Guard user.

-While they cut into their recovery, a PHer doesn't care about much about residual damage from weather, leech seed, or being tricked a Sticky Barb or Black Sludge. They also cannot be KOed from whirling-phazing with just SR or a single layer of Spikes unless their HP is already very low.

-Once their status orb triggers, Trick and Knock Off don't bother them much. At worst, it just means the player has to be careful when using their Cleric. If they even pack one.

-Can Psycho Shift their status onto other Pokemon while recovering HP the following turns (or just use Toxic).

-Can easily reach crazy levels of recovery by using draining attacks, stuff like Aqua Ring and Leech Seed, or by just using Recover.


Now, obviously not every PHer runs all of those sets simultaneously. But they get good recovery + status immunity + not caring as much about Trick all built-in on top of whatever set they choose to run, whether offensive, defensive, or mixed. Plus, I honestly can't think of a single ability with nearly as many perks as PH. Magic Guard comes close, but the lack of innate recovery is very noticeable.

Okay, now that rant was a little longer than intended (even after converting it to bullet points). Despite that, I don't know about banning PH entirely since, despite all the advantages, there's only a few Pokemon that can really leverage them. But there is certainly a few that leverage them too well. It's definitely something that needs to be looked at, if just on those three particular Pokemon.


Edit: Remember the team I posted above? I started saving all the replays I did with me. Against good players, noobs, everyone. I'm up to ten replays now (and can always get more), which I have linked in the spoiler below. I meant to record both wins and losses but, well, in this series of ten replays I didn't lose. Even against a couple of very good players who'd normally roflstomp me. However, I did have about 4-5 losses out of about 15ish games before I started recording replays, so there's that.

Hide

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54125909 (vs. aspavientos, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54126687 (vs. DarkDestiny 31, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54127405 (vs. Laberugus HAILtest, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54212218 (vs. betbet17, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54213465 (vs. kitsunekombat, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54215006 (vs. brett99nan, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54215514 (vs. fayCorelX, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54273209 (vs. Ehekatl, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54276075 (vs. cooby, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54276935 (vs. DarkDestiny 31, W)

 

[ntiller]

Ban Ph -> mold break gets even better
Ban mold break -> hazard setting becomes impossible
Ban magic bounce -> spore becomes too good
Ban sleep moves -> finally a balanced meta except
Ban imposter -> there we are

^ I have been considering hosting a tourney of this, but eh... To complex for actual BH, at least at this point.

Overall, I would say that sleep clause in any form is a bad thing. I feel like having one spore to cripple an opponent would be a bad thing because I don't like the idea of making a sacrifice of one Pokemon to get spore (which could be ANYWHERE) off my back is not fun. I hate how it works in ou, where my ninetales essentially gets a free Mon out of the match with one move. I think that either we should preserve spore in its current state or ban sleep moves altogether. Sleep clause is something I hate. If spore roams free, at least you don't sacrifice one Mon to it, you sacrifice a few or none and then bring in a Mon immune to sleep. I don't feel like I am really eloquently explaining why I dislike sleep clause, but my two cents is that we should just ban all sleep moves more than we should implement sleep clause.

Although we might wait a few weeks before we ban too hastily.

That sounds incredibly boring- at that point, why not just play OU?

It's also worth noting that, in a format as potentially diverse as BH, Imposter is the glue that holds the format together. It checks many threats based on mechanical functionality as opposed to typing. Without it, it would be infinitely more difficult to effectively answer the metagame- teams would be forced to be proactive since they could not hope to carry reactive answers to even most threats. Interestingly, this is the same effect Gigas tends to have- it forces you to set something up before Gigas gets rolling, since it is almost impossible to answer defensively.

The thing with PH is that Facade isn't the only problem. You don't even need Facade to fully exploit PH. Why? Well, a PHer can also...

-Is immune to statuses, so can throw their own statuses around without fear, most notably Spore. Note that even Magic Bounce isn't fully immune (Moldy doesn't even need to exist to bypass their immunity) and can't just toss Spores around without concern.

-Can continually phaze the other team while recovering HP. Combine with hazards and/or status and the victim is essentially stuck waiting for their counter to be forced in.

-They can adjust their HP IVs and EVs to ensure PH recovers exactly 25% HP, allowing them to seriously abuse Sub and Protect.

-They can also use Sub to block Gastro/Worry/Simple, the three moves that are otherwise your best bet to ensure they go down.

-As long as too many boosts aren't out, most common PHers are bulky enough to take a hit and then either status, phaze, or KO a boosted sweeper.

-Can use recoil moves with only slightly more concern than a Magic Guard user.

-While they cut into their recovery, a PHer doesn't care about much about residual damage from weather, leech seed, or being tricked a Sticky Barb or Black Sludge. They also cannot be KOed from whirling-phazing with just SR or a single layer of Spikes unless their HP is already very low.

-Once their status orb triggers, Trick and Knock Off don't bother them much. At worst, it just means the player has to be careful when using their Cleric. If they even pack one.

-Can Psycho Shift their status onto other Pokemon while recovering HP the following turns (or just use Toxic).

-Can easily reach crazy levels of recovery by using draining attacks, stuff like Aqua Ring and Leech Seed, or by just using Recover.


Now, obviously not every PHer runs all of those sets simultaneously. But they get good recovery + status immunity + not caring as much about Trick all built-in on top of whatever set they choose to run, whether offensive, defensive, or mixed. Plus, I honestly can't think of a single ability with nearly as many perks as PH. Magic Guard comes close, but the lack of innate recovery is very noticeable.

Okay, now that rant was a little longer than intended (even after converting it to bullet points). Despite that, I don't know about banning PH entirely since, despite all the advantages, there's only a few Pokemon that can really leverage them. But there is certainly a few that leverage them too well. It's definitely something that needs to be looked at, if just on those three particular Pokemon.


Edit: Remember the team I posted above? I started saving all the replays I did with me. Against good players, noobs, everyone. I'm up to ten replays now (and can always get more), which I have linked in the spoiler below. I meant to record both wins and losses but, well, in this series of ten replays I didn't lose. Even against a couple of very good players who'd normally roflstomp me. However, I did have about 4-5 losses out of about 15ish games before I started recording replays, so there's that.

Hide

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54125909 (vs. aspavientos, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54126687 (vs. DarkDestiny 31, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54127405 (vs. Laberugus HAILtest, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54212218 (vs. betbet17, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54213465 (vs. kitsunekombat, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54215006 (vs. brett99nan, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54215514 (vs. fayCorelX, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54273209 (vs. Ehekatl, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54276075 (vs. cooby, W)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/balancedhackmons-54276935 (vs. DarkDestiny 31, W)

A few things:
1. The point of banning Facade would not be to make Poison Heal a bad ability. It will still be a very good ability. The point is to make it slightly more defensive and a bit less oppressive. Of course Poison Heal mons will still have powerful things to do, but they will not have a 140 BP stab with 32 PP. This will make it easier for a bouncer to take a few hits.

2. I did not watch every video, but I did watch most of them and most of the people you played ranged from just having an outright not competitive team, to being mediocre (in BH, 1700-1800 is mediocre). This does not mean that I don't think that Poison Heal Gigas is too good (I do) but I don't think its as OP as one might guess from watching those.

3. Poison Heal mons hate getting tricked a scarf. Psycho Shift is generally worse than spore on offensive PHers (the ones that are the problem) and Leech Seed isn't used that much in BH in general.

 

[asterat]

This is a kind of complicated situation. I think banning imposter ins not an option, it is the glue that holds the metagame in place. Banning PH altogether would be bad too because it makes MB even better. If you ban facade it is a slight nerf, but I think it might be enough to keep them under control. Head charge / return / frustration are good too, but the decreased power (and recoil in the former) are a significant nerf. However in bossting PHers it wouldn't slow them down much. Banning PH on ARS just seems like the best option and either nerfing mold breaker or banning it altogether. I really don't like the idea of sleep clause, BH is too defensive for that.

 

[ntiller]

This is a kind of complicated situation. I think banning imposter ins not an option, it is the glue that holds the metagame in place. Banning PH altogether would be bad too because it makes MB even better. If you ban facade it is a slight nerf, but I think it might be enough to keep them under control. Head charge / return / frustration are good too, but the decreased power (and recoil in the former) are a significant nerf. However in bossting PHers it wouldn't slow them down much. Banning PH on ARS just seems like the best option and either nerfing mold breaker or banning it altogether. I really don't like the idea of sleep clause, BH is too defensive for that.

I agree with most of this, except the part about Mold Breaker and the complex bans. Banning Breaker makes Magic Bounce kinda insane and will probably more or less remove hazards from the tier. Banning PH on Arc/Gigas/Slaking is too specific, which is a path I really don't think we should go down. I do not want to ban any specific move/ability/pokemon combinations for power level under any circumstances ever. Your assessment of the problem seems very accurate though.

 

[nyph]

Honestly I don't know why people are opposed to sleep clause. It's not like spore shuffling makes for fun games. Every other meta except pure hackmons has sleep clause too, so it wouldn't be too complicated or hard for beginners to understand. Plus spore definitely retains a lot of usefulness even with sleep clause. Also maybe thunderwave and other status would see some use and might diversify the meta a little.

 

[MJB]

Well I don't usually post about these sort of things but I feel people aren't quite thinking about a few things logically, so fuck it.

On Mold Breaker:

At first like many others i assumed this would be OP as hell when I first heard about it being fixed, but unlike a lot of people i refrained from judgment until after I tried it (Its upsetting to me how many people didnt :( ). However after trying it, I cannot honestly say that it is too good or "uncounterable". I've spoken to a few people about this and the main argument I've heard against it is "You can't have 1 mon countering all the mold breaker sets". I honestly can't see why this is a problem... no fucking shit, this was the main problem with unaware before hand, you put 1 unaware mon on your team and suddenly you have every sweeper on the other team countered. This is ridiculous, now we have something that can counter unaware and everyone can't seem to get past "all my old teams no longer work!".

Now you can beat mold breaker with 1 simple principle that should be obvious to any decent teambuilder known as team synergy. Now granted this is harder in BH because everything can have perfect coverage moves etc, but its still fully doable. People need to stop thinking "oh I can only use ubers". Thats bullshit, even in ubers the best players don't use solely ubers mons. Use what compliments your team best, type wise, and you would be amazed how much easier it is to counter threats simply because you have better type synergy, or in BH you can have ability synergy as well.

tl:dr mold breaker doesn't need to be countered, counter the mon with the ability not the ability, we now have a solution to the brokeness that was unaware and all people are doing is bitching about it.

On Poison Heal (normal types):

Now this is a trickier issue, I am not going to propose any bans/changes as I don't think thats an intelligent use of time, however I am going to say that PH does seem to be a problem (I am going to say regi but that can be substituted for any of its brethren). Now the main issue with poison heal is the fact that it seems to counter everything about the current meta in BH, you cant sleep them, you cant wall them and you can't bounce them (referring to magic bounce). TBH, these are the main ways people have found to counter/get an advantage over other players and the fact that PH seems to negate this is problematic for teams who rely on this, so people are still trying to find solid solutions (example the encore sets from a few posts up seem to be making their way back into the meta). I don't believe PH needs a ban (or complex ban) however I do feel that regi and the like ARE meta-defining. There doesn't yet seem to be 1 set that counters all the regi sets however I do think its doable.

tl;dr I didn't really say anything tbh, just gave some food for thought.

 

[ntiller]

Well I don't usually post about these sort of things but I feel people aren't quite thinking about a few things logically, so fuck it.

On Mold Breaker:

At first like many others i assumed this would be OP as hell when I first heard about it being fixed, but unlike a lot of people i refrained from judgment until after I tried it (Its upsetting to me how many people didnt :( ). However after trying it, I cannot honestly say that it is too good or "uncounterable". I've spoken to a few people about this and the main argument I've heard against it is "You can't have 1 mon countering all the mold breaker sets". I honestly can't see why this is a problem... no fucking shit, this was the main problem with unaware before hand, you put 1 unaware mon on your team and suddenly you have every sweeper on the other team countered. This is ridiculous, now we have something that can counter unaware and everyone can't seem to get past "all my old teams no longer work!".

Now you can beat mold breaker with 1 simple principle that should be obvious to any decent teambuilder known as team synergy. Now granted this is harder in BH because everything can have perfect coverage moves etc, but its still fully doable. People need to stop thinking "oh I can only use ubers". Thats bullshit, even in ubers the best players don't use solely ubers mons. Use what compliments your team best, type wise, and you would be amazed how much easier it is to counter threats simply because you have better type synergy, or in BH you can have ability synergy as well.

tl:dr mold breaker doesn't need to be countered, counter the mon with the ability not the ability, we now have a solution to the brokeness that was unaware and all people are doing is bitching about it.

On Poison Heal (normal types):

Now this is a trickier issue, I am not going to propose any bans/changes as I don't think thats an intelligent use of time, however I am going to say that PH does seem to be a problem (I am going to say regi but that can be substituted for any of its brethren). Now the main issue with poison heal is the fact that it seems to counter everything about the current meta in BH, you cant sleep them, you cant wall them and you can't bounce them (referring to magic bounce). TBH, these are the main ways people have found to counter/get an advantage over other players and the fact that PH seems to negate this is problematic for teams who rely on this, so people are still trying to find solid solutions (example the encore sets from a few posts up seem to be making their way back into the meta). I don't believe PH needs a ban (or complex ban) however I do feel that regi and the like ARE meta-defining. There doesn't yet seem to be 1 set that counters all the regi sets however I do think its doable.

tl;dr I didn't really say anything tbh, just gave some food for thought.

Unaware was never broken. It was a staple on stall teams, but before the fix, the meta was actually more offensive than it had been in a while IIRC. Around then was the time when things like sun boosted banded Darmanitan V-Create were very popular. Sure, Unaware gave teams a shorter list of threats they needed to specifically counter. IMO, this was a good thing- it placed less of an emphasis on making teams a specific list of threats and answers, and more of an emphasis on mechanics. Good teams had broader scopes and were less likely to be "disadvantaged" at the start of a match. Also, I do not think anyone thinks "I can only use Ubers" in BH. That smells like a strawman argument, given that Chansey is one of the most popular pokemon in the tier.

That being said, I do not think Mold Breaker is an issue... yet. Use an Imposter. Use Spore. Set up a nuke. Use a bulky Poison Heal phaser. However, if the meta stabilizes after Gen 6 and Mold Breakers are still as awesome as they seem right now, it might be worth reevaluating the issue.

I agree with you that PH is problematic on Gigas/Slaking/Arc and that unfortunately, banning anything is probably not a smart course of action. Gen 6 is right around the corner. However, as I've said before, if we do decide the problem is bad enough that we ought to ban something right before a new gen (we should wait) we should ban Facade. Banning the ability outright or setting up a complex ban both seem like poor solutions.

 

[Klang]

A good solution would be to ban PH on normal types (the only reason why you'll give a normal type PH is for offensive reasons) and disallow Mold Breaker with attacking moves, almost all Mold Breakers in the past did not use attacks anyway, banning Mold Breaker Spore will also kill the legitimate Moldy Spore + Anti-Orb user core strategy, not a good idea. All in all, the most harmless option would be to ban PH on normal types, and make Mold Breakers unable to use attacks, this'll bring BH back to how it was before, a perfectly balanced meta, it'll be almost identical with the exception of OP PH's and Mold Breaker without attacks, which was never really used anyway.

So essentially you want to ban Mold Breaker and Poison Heal in offensive context. That is very, very biased coming from a stall player. You essentially want to throw out the things that are most effective against stall because they threaten your teams in general, while trying to minimize the collateral damage that it would also cause them. If you think Mold Breaker sweepers are broken attempt to ban Mold Breaker outright and if you think Poison Heal is broken attempt to get Poison Heal banned outright. You really shouldn't pick a middle ground just to save your stall strategies, and complex bans in general just make a metagame hard to get into.


Anyway, here's my opinion on the abilities:

Mold Breaker does what no other sweeper could do in the past. It breaks Unaware. Unaware itself was insanely powerful before the fix, as MJB said, walling pretty much 99% of sweepers by putting it on a bulky mon. You essentially needed to have a move that hit like a nuke to even hope to deal any damage to them. It solved almost every problem a stall team could run into and people got used to it. Just because ONE SINGLE ability can break through Unaware doesn't mean you need to ban it to conserve an ability that was borderline broken in the first place. Unaware should not be the end-all to all sweepers in the tier and people that decide to run pure stall will just have to fit a few pokes to patch the weakness the Mold Breaker fix caused them.

Poison Heal on the other hand I'm not sure on yet. The main issue is counters need to be designed to beat them, but that applies to most Pokes in BH. Taken directly from Adrian's team, Dry Skin Rachi is an example of a tailored counter to Palkia. Just because you need specialized Pokes to beat something doesn't make it OP. The thing that worries me however is Gigas' general performance against most of the tier. It is very hard to kill if something unfortunate happens to your check and your team isn't Sand/Hail.

 

[Rumors]

2. I did not watch every video, but I did watch most of them and most of the people you played ranged from just having an outright not competitive team, to being mediocre (in BH, 1700-1800 is mediocre). This does not mean that I don't think that Poison Heal Gigas is too good (I do) but I don't think its as OP as one might guess from watching those.

I was recording every battle, not just ones against "good people" so nobody could say I was picking and choosing. You may also want to look at the match with Ehekatl there. Rank 2.1k and I don't think I've ever beaten them before. Then I turn around and win with a half-assed team I designed in 30 seconds and made only one move tweak to whereas Ehekatl's team is likely the result of a lot of planning, evaluation, revaluation, tweaking, and more.

Not to mention I don't think I've ever hit a 10 win-streak before in BH (longer actually, but I don't recall how many unrecorded battles I won between my first record battle and my last loss with that team).

But anyway my point is that the team, which I posted above, is half-assed, took little to no thought to make, and takes little to no thought to play. I rarely have to adjust to the situation as I can just answer almost anything that is happening with the same two-three moves. No other team I've played, however cleverly designed, has been able to do that. And it bothers me that this craptastic team does so well just because of PH.

Now I don't know what the optimum solution is. I'm reluctant to ban PH outright, but on the other the current status quo is certainly off. (An idea occurred to me was to ban Toxic Orb + PH on Gigas and the like, or all PH Pokemon, but I personally think this is terrible and am only posting it on the off chance everyone disagrees.)

And mind, X&Y might be coming out in about a week, but we'll probably still be in Gen V for a month or so on Showdown. There's research to be done on new additions and changes, coding to do, bugs to test and squish, and sprites to create. In people's free time, mind. That won't happen overnight.