Gen V Initial NU Metagame Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh lord, Snover is NU...and we've got everything that has Ice Body, and everything with Snow Cloak bar Froslass/Mamoswine. I wonder if SubPunch Beartic will get any play...

EDIT: Magic Guard Kadabra via Dream World, and regular old Magic Guard Duosion are worth noting too...
 
Hail didn't work well in RU...

It'll probably work in NU. There are is like no offensive force in here.
 
Anyone interested in Pikachu here? It does have huge atk and spa without boosting and good coverage.
 

a fairy

I’ll be at PAX East! Will you?
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Community Leader
hey guys, i've registered #neverused for the same reason there's an irc channel for every tier
 
Zwelious looks really good, especially since the Steel-types with high defense are 4x weak to Ground AND Fighting so partners will be of no shortage. Maybe 'Ton and Marowak and even Trick Room support ;) ? Although Eviolite Tangela will have pretty high defense o break through....and there's that Hustle 80% accuracy thing too

Also, I find it odd Gorebyss is down here if people were complaining about it upstairs. Whatever ~
Klingklang has the highest defense of all the Steels in the teir bar Aggron, and isn't x4 weak to anything.

Altaria is also down here, and a bulky DD Altaria could quite easily be the premiere dragon in this teir... not like there's much competition, of course.

As for Gorebyss, it's down here because people don't use it because they find it cheap. A lot of people have 'honor codes' like that. Personally, I'd never use SmashPass. That said, I'd never use full-on stall either. If people do start abuseing SmashPass, however, I'm sure it'll be quickbanned.

Speaking of which, although NU isn't officially supported, I'm sure if there's a massive outcry from the NU metagame about something being broken to bits, I'm sure it can be banned from the NU ladder without much fuss, even if Smogon isn't yet supporting NU.

Anywho, here's my thoughts on the metagame as a whole, at a glance:

Random Museing:
It's official, the 5th Gen starters are the worst set. It's the only set of starters that are all down here. As well as Meganium and Torterra. One keeping her title as derpiest starter, and the other probobly only down here because of Yanmega existing in RU destroying everything.


Offense:
The game of pokemon itself, on a whole, tends to have more offensive pokemon than defensive, so, as a result, while most of the passable walls, as well as hazard users, have found themselves phazed out by now, a lot of offensive powerhouses have worked down here, simply due to being outclassed, or weak to Piority, which, lo and behold, is mostly in upper teirs too!

Of course, they all also have exploitable flaws, but some of those flaws are lesser, such as Rock Polish Rhydon's exploitable weaknesses, it's not like he has to fear powerful Aqua Jets and Mach Punches.

There's also things like Tauros in the teir, which combine speed and power. There's also quite a lot of slow, bulky attackers, such as Emboar, Torterra, and the aforementioned Rhydon. There's also frail attackers such as Swanna, and the Simis.

Also, belive it or not, Serperior might get some use with a Coil set down here, and Meganium can wreck stuff with Swords Dance. That's right, even the worst of the starters can see use down here. Maybe.

Defense:
NU is not without defense, although it certainly lacks anything that will even come close to the likes of, say, Skarmory in OU, or Chansey in the old UU meta.

The 'true' face of defense in NU will probobly be technically Bulky Offense, using tanks such as Regirock. There may also be support-heavy teams, that are capable of stalling, such as teams that make use of Jumpluff [Poor Serperior and Meganium, forever outclassed].

Also... I think Samuwott is the best Bulky Water down here ._.... oh wait, Quagsire. Sorry Meganium, but you might lose your title to Samuwott...

Support:
In b 4 SmashPass.

Besides, that, there's quite a fair bit of room for support down in NU. There's a fair number of Grass-types, who can make use of Subseeding, and spreadying status quite happily, such as Evolite Tangela, and especially Jumpluff [I trolled whole teams in UU with that thing, how it's in NU is beyond me]

There's also stuff like Sableye.

And Wish Kangaskahn. No, I'm serious.

Rais' throught on the outlook
Certainly going to be an offensive metagame, although not *quite* as HO as Little Cup, it's gonna be close to there, with loads of threatening sweepers who can set up rather quickly, be it Klingklang with Gear Shift, or things like Rhydon with Rock Polish.

Possible Offensive Threats:

Rhydon - Evolite makes him bulky as anything. Rock Polish makes him fast. He has QuakeSlide and a massive Atk stat. Look out for Rhydon, or else he could quite easily sweep if given the chance.

Altaria - Premiere Dragon in the teir, pretty bulky, and has access to Roost. Considering the lack of Steels in the teir, Altaria's Outrage is pretty much only checked by Klingklang... who Earthquake can deal with. Regirock might work quite well, however.

Meganium - No, I'm serious. Swords Dance, Seed Bomb, and two of Earthquake, Return, or Synthisis. She's pretty bulky, and when on low HP, Overgrow kicks in for one last punch. Shame Salac Berry's not out yet.

Goyebass: Potent threat even without Smashpassing, probobly going to be the main offensive Water-type.

Torterra: Rock Polish, Wood Hammer, Earthquake, Stone Edge. Think of it as a middle ground between Meganium and Rhydon.

Klingklang: +1 Atk, +2 Spd in one turn. Gear Grind is a Base 100 STAB that can break through Subs, running off Base 100 Atk. 60/115/85 is pretty bulky, especially as you should be putting at least some HP EV's into this thing, because with Base 85 Speed, after a Gear Shift, he outspeeds anything without a boost of it's own.

And with a lack of other Steels, Klingklang is more than fine to run Return, and not care about coverage beyond that.

Klang sacrifices 20 Base Atk and some speed, but can be far bulkier with Evolite. Worth a mention, at least.

The Simis: Massive movepools. Swords Dance, Work Up and Nasty Plot. Base 101 Speed. Base 98 is both offenses. Prepare for three unpredictable, but thankfully frail, sweepers who can and will run riot. I'd not be shocked if someone run all three of them in the same team for a FWG core of sweepers, using 'Pour as a Special attacker, 'Sage as physical [Due to Power Whip] and 'Sear as either Special or mixed.
 
If Klinklang gets to be popular, it needs to be wary of Magneton, who is in the tier and gets an Eviolite boost...
 
seriously, why does everyone overlook zweilous?
If you could please explain any reason to use Zweilous over Altaria, instead of claiming we're overlooking it?

It may have more brute physical power off the bat... at the cost of accuracy. Altaria can just go Dragon Dance too to sort that issue out.

Altaria has Natural Cure, so dosen't care about status. It can also go mixed quite well.

Most importantly, Altaria has Roost and Reliable recovery, as well as a better seondary type.

Altaria also has things like Sing, Cotton Guard, Cloud Nine [In case Rain Dance gets popularity for the power boost, not just Swift Swim], as well as attacks Zweilous cannot use, such as Ice Beam. A stall-set is probobly rather possible between Cotton Guard, Roost, Sp.Def EV's and Roar.

Oh, and she can troll Smashpass with Perish Song.

I see no reason whatsoever to use Zweilous over Altaria, except the SR factor, which is easily sorted by Roost [And immunity to Spikes]. Hell, if you wanted an Evolite Dragon... I'd choose Shelgon.

Seriously, I forsee a lot of people using either bulky Rocks or Ice-types to deal with Altaria. It can pretty much decimate everything in the teir with Dragon Claw/Outrage, and Earthquake. Combined with bulk, and Dragon Dance... and a good typing... yeah.

EDIT:

Thought about talking about Stall-Taria a bit more:

Cotton Guard is a +3 to Defense, making, for once, a defense set-up viable. Especially with a lack of physical Ice-typed attacks.

75/90/105 defenses are VERY bulky for this teir. Especially on a dragon. Natural Cure means Toxic isn't going to cut it, as Altaria can just switch out.

Roost is Roost.

Roar is phazing.

The last moveslot can either be Toxic or Dragon Claw to whittle away, because even if it's only an univested Base 70 Atk, Dragon Claw is still going to dent things, seeing the complete lack of Steels in the teir. Thankfully, Klingklang walls this set, but, likewise, Altaria can just RoarShuffle. Same applies to Ice-types... who are mostly SR weak.

After a Cotton Guard, Stone Edge and the like are not going to be breaking Altaria, unless they score a Critical. But it's better than 90% of the 'walls' in the teir.

So, basically, be on guard for both offensive and defensive Altaria. Both have potential.

Possible Set:

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Careful

252 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 4 Def

- Cotton Guard
- Roost
- Roar
- Dragon Claw/Toxic

With this EV spread, Altaria reaches 354 HP, 216 Defense, and 339 Sp.Def. After Cotton Guard, Altaria's Defense skyrockets to 540, and if it gets to use it twice, 864.

Just to give you an idea:

Choie Band Adamant 252 EV Rhydon's Stone Edge vs the above set at +3 Defense deals 236 ~ 278 damage. This means Altaria can happily Stallroost the strongest Stone Edge in the teir. Obviously, it's at +3 defense because Altaria will outspeed this particular Rhydon even with no investment, and it's a speed tie against Jolly [Which has a considerably lower damage output as a result]

Actually, that might be a reason to put those 4 EV's into Speed, to outrun Scarfless Rhydon 100% of the time, so you can Cotton Guard before they Stone Edge.

That said, when will Rhydon not be holding Evolite?

Dragon Claw is prefered so you're not Taunt Bait, and some EV's can probobly be put into Speed if need be to set up Cotton Guard before certain threats can Stone Edge you, as well as Roaring out slower Phazers.

As for Offensive Sets:

Altaria @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 Atk / ?? Spd / Rest in Defense

*Note: Speed is left blank because I do not know the speed teirs and common scarfers yet, and Altaria should run no more speed than it has to do so, so it can invest in more bulk, similar to DDNite.

- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake
 
I don't see why you would HAVE to use one of them over the other. Just use both imo. BulkySupportAltaria + SweeperZweilous. They're both really good here.
 
I don't see why you would HAVE to use one of them over the other. Just use both imo. BulkySupportAltaria + SweeperZweilous. They're both really good here.
I fail to see how something with Hustle, Base 85 Atk, a pretty bad physical movepool, and a mere Base 58 Speed can even be thought of as a sweeper for two seconds, especially with no form of setting up.

It's a wallbreaker at best. A pretty awful one too, due to aformentioned accuracy issues, and the fact that it's purely physical, and that if it want to use Dragon STAB, it has to lock itself into 80% accuracy Outrage... or resort to Hustle Dragon Rush... yeah, brilliant idea that.

And the point still stands that offensive Altaria completely outclasses Zweilous. The only reason you would ever use it is because you're already using Altaria, in some kind of Double-Dragon tactic. But even then... I'd choose Shelgon because he can at least set up, has a far better physical movepool, and his high physical defense complement's Altaria's high Special Defense.
 
except hustle boosted outrage is stronger than altaria's + 1 max invested outrage; plus, we're all theorymonning anyway
Altaria's + 1 invested Outrage has 100% accuracy, and can be backed up by a Life Orb. So, to be fair to Altaria, after you've boosted Outrage from 120 power to 180, you should multiply that by 0.8 to get the average damage Zweilous will be dealing.

Not to mention Altaria has a far better chance of getting off multiple Outrages, because of it's far higher speed, especially at +1.

It's hardly theorymon. The only advantage Zwelious has is a bit more power off the bat. Evolite boosted bulk is irrelevant when Altaria has Roost. Altaria wins in every other department, includeing unpredictabilty.

And, as I said... I'd rather use Shelgon, make use of his superior physical defense and comparitive lack of weaknesses to DD if I wanted an Evolite Dragon. Shelgon's +1 Outrage is stronger than Zwelious' Hustle Outrage, and is more reliable to boot.

Anyway, I'm not sure if there's an NU ladder up, but I'm going to build an NU team anyway. If anyone sees me online and wants an NU battle, just send me a PM and I'll get my team. That way, we're not just theorymoning.

---

Also, the speed benchmark DD Altaria should aim for is 256 [240 Spd EV's]. This allows it to outrun + Nature 252 Swellow, who threatens with Guts boosted Facades, while at +1. The remaining EV's should be put into defense. Any addittional speed is pretty pointless, except to ensure the speed tie with opposing Altaria. Electrode and Ninjask are not being outsped, nor are they threats.
 
Except there is a lack of Spinblockers, and decent pokemon that can set up hazards. Wartortle is a pretty decent spinner. Not to mention Taunters such as Floatzel, and Golbat.

There's also worthwhile mentions of Aromatheraphy, which as Meganium and Jumpluff, so Toxic isn't that viable.

And, you can't really say that things like Tauros, Ursaring, Pinsir as well as Swellow, are offensivly 'Meh'. There are quite a lot of physical powerhouses.

Also, Duosion and Kadabra are down here. Magic Guard users with high Sp.atk.

Meanwhile, there are no standout walls, except maybe Cotton Guard Altaria, who can outstall CB Stone Edges from Rhydon...
 
Well for spinblockers, you could try Drifblim and Misdreavus, perhaps even Frillish. And pretty much every defense pokemon down here can set up stealth rocks, and for spikes and toxic spikes, Roselia, Pineco, Maractus, and Tentacool. And there are plenty of perish song users and hazers in NU to deal with Dousion.
 
Well for spinblockers, you could try Drifblim and Misdreavus, perhaps even Frillish. And pretty much every defense pokemon down here can set up stealth rocks, and for spikes and toxic spikes, Roselia, Pineco, Maractus, and Tentacool. And there are plenty of perish song users and hazers in NU to deal with Dousion.
Tentacool isn't really viable, even with Evolite.

However, there is Scolipede

I don't see how any of those are going to stand up to things like Rock Polish Rhydon, Swords Dance Pinsir, or DD Altaria either.
 
If you could please explain any reason to use Zweilous over Altaria, instead of claiming we're overlooking it?

It may have more brute physical power off the bat... at the cost of accuracy. Altaria can just go Dragon Dance too to sort that issue out.

Altaria has Natural Cure, so dosen't care about status. It can also go mixed quite well.

Most importantly, Altaria has Roost and Reliable recovery, as well as a better seondary type.

Altaria also has things like Sing, Cotton Guard, Cloud Nine [In case Rain Dance gets popularity for the power boost, not just Swift Swim], as well as attacks Zweilous cannot use, such as Ice Beam. A stall-set is probobly rather possible between Cotton Guard, Roost, Sp.Def EV's and Roar.

Oh, and she can troll Smashpass with Perish Song.

I see no reason whatsoever to use Zweilous over Altaria, except the SR factor, which is easily sorted by Roost [And immunity to Spikes]. Hell, if you wanted an Evolite Dragon... I'd choose Shelgon.

Seriously, I forsee a lot of people using either bulky Rocks or Ice-types to deal with Altaria. It can pretty much decimate everything in the teir with Dragon Claw/Outrage, and Earthquake. Combined with bulk, and Dragon Dance... and a good typing... yeah.

EDIT:

Thought about talking about Stall-Taria a bit more:

Cotton Guard is a +3 to Defense, making, for once, a defense set-up viable. Especially with a lack of physical Ice-typed attacks.

75/90/105 defenses are VERY bulky for this teir. Especially on a dragon. Natural Cure means Toxic isn't going to cut it, as Altaria can just switch out.

Roost is Roost.

Roar is phazing.

The last moveslot can either be Toxic or Dragon Claw to whittle away, because even if it's only an univested Base 70 Atk, Dragon Claw is still going to dent things, seeing the complete lack of Steels in the teir. Thankfully, Klingklang walls this set, but, likewise, Altaria can just RoarShuffle. Same applies to Ice-types... who are mostly SR weak.

After a Cotton Guard, Stone Edge and the like are not going to be breaking Altaria, unless they score a Critical. But it's better than 90% of the 'walls' in the teir.

So, basically, be on guard for both offensive and defensive Altaria. Both have potential.

Possible Set:

Altaria @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Careful

252 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 4 Def

- Cotton Guard
- Roost
- Roar
- Dragon Claw/Toxic

With this EV spread, Altaria reaches 354 HP, 216 Defense, and 339 Sp.Def. After Cotton Guard, Altaria's Defense skyrockets to 540, and if it gets to use it twice, 864.

Just to give you an idea:

Choie Band Adamant 252 EV Rhydon's Stone Edge vs the above set at +3 Defense deals 236 ~ 278 damage. This means Altaria can happily Stallroost the strongest Stone Edge in the teir. Obviously, it's at +3 defense because Altaria will outspeed this particular Rhydon even with no investment, and it's a speed tie against Jolly [Which has a considerably lower damage output as a result]

Actually, that might be a reason to put those 4 EV's into Speed, to outrun Scarfless Rhydon 100% of the time, so you can Cotton Guard before they Stone Edge.

That said, when will Rhydon not be holding Evolite?

Dragon Claw is prefered so you're not Taunt Bait, and some EV's can probobly be put into Speed if need be to set up Cotton Guard before certain threats can Stone Edge you, as well as Roaring out slower Phazers.

As for Offensive Sets:

Altaria @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 Atk / ?? Spd / Rest in Defense

*Note: Speed is left blank because I do not know the speed teirs and common scarfers yet, and Altaria should run no more speed than it has to do so, so it can invest in more bulk, similar to DDNite.

- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Earthquake

This. Zweilous is very meh imo. Eviolite means you lack some power while CB means you just go down in pretty much 1 hit. Not to mention Hustle is unreliable. Shelgon and Altaria are way better.
 
I fail to see how something with Hustle, Base 85 Atk, a pretty bad physical movepool, and a mere Base 58 Speed can even be thought of as a sweeper for two seconds
Say hello to the most powerful outrage in the game! More powerful than even Zekrom's or Rayquaza's! ...at the cost of accuracy, but people use stone edge in OU, right?

I can see Zwelous becoming like Haxorus in OU. A CB, CS, or Wide Lens set used as a wallbreaker due to that powerful outrage in a tier not exactly overloaded with steels.
 
Say hello to the most powerful outrage in the game! More powerful than even Zekrom's or Rayquaza's! ...at the cost of accuracy, but people use stone edge in OU, right?

I can see Zwelous becoming like Haxorus in OU. A CB, CS, or Wide Lens set used as a wallbreaker due to that powerful outrage in a tier not exactly overloaded with steels.
CB Zwelous will be outsed and OHKO'ed by almost anything.

CS Swelous is still going to be outsped by things like Swellow, and dosen't fix the OHKO issue, although Scarf is admittedly probobly the best set, better than Evolite.

Wide Lens has the same problem as Choice Band and lacks even more power.


Don't get me wrong. It can be a good wall-denter for Altaria to come in later. But stand-alone? No, Offensive Altaria is simply better. It may take a little while to get going, but with Roost and it's bulk it's not exactly hard to set up to +1 at least.

Also, please note that about the only thing Altaria needs take out of the way for it... is Shedinja and Ice Shard users. Earthquake + Outrage has perfect neutral coverage in the teir besides Shedinja.


---

EDIT: I've submitted a... well... submission for a NU Tourny. Hopefully, this will help spurn interest in the NU metagame, and help us learn more about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top