1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

[Gen V]OU Multi-type Sun

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by K´Genesis, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Introduction

    I love weather teams and there's a special place in my heart for Sun teams ever since Gen 4. Call me crazy, if you want to...
    Since Gen V brought us a lot of new and juicy tools for Sun, I've tried my hand on it and loved every minute. But then a crazy idea came to mind: Is Ninetales self-sufficient enough to be the only Fire-type 'mon in a Sun team?
    Of course, I was looking for synergy, Sun abuse and a solid winning strategy; not just a gimmicky team for fun and giggles. After setting up on a final team with excellent results, I decided to take it one step further and release myself from my self-imposed shackles to conquer the ladders. The final product was better than I expected.

    As of now, some abbreviations will be introduced as well to avoid redundant repetition.

    W.I. = Weather Inducer
    S.D. = Swords Dance

    Team Presentation

    The former question led me to the formation of the following team:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ninetales is, of course, the star and the reason for the team. So, naturally, it´s my #1 pick.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I needed a lead, since Ninetales is the fastest W.I. in OU(thus losing every single lead weather call), and Genesect fitted the bill beautifully because of his adaptability to all kinds of weathers, making it that much easier to keep the momentum pro-Sun when against other weather teams. Not only that, but he's also a wonderful revenge killer.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now, for the Chlorophyll sweeper, Sawsbuck-W. His stats are perfect for a sweep after a set-up and his movepool presents decent coverage.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next thing I needed was something able to take hits. Cresselia can abuse the sun for excellent healing and proceed to set-up or disrupt an attacker. The increase in Fighting-type usage also proves benefitial to Cresselia and not even Payback users can OHKO her. Unfortunately, Cress didn't rise up to expectations and made the pace too slow to be functional. During RMT came the suggestion that made this team stand out from the rest of Sun teams in terms of weather wars...

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Kingdra filled in the shoes of a tanker by playing with its amazing roster of resistances, especially against Rain and Sun abusers. It also packs a powerful enough punch to cripple the opposing team and can exploit opposing Rain, if existent. Finally, it packs a slightly shocking surprise against a particularly powerful meta crippler.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Rapid-Spin support is of utmost importance for Ninetales and sun maintenance. Donphan provides excellent physical offense and bulk plus the Stealth Rock/Sturdy combo, while the sun helps him against Water-type 'mons.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Finally, I needed an emergency plan against Sandstorm sweepage that could act independently of it. Sableye can come in on the set-up against the likes of Doryuuzu and cripple him with Will o´ Wisp while providing me with much needed invulnerabilities.


    The shackles I´ve imposed myself(a.k.a. restrictions) were simply that the entire team couldn't have a single type shared amongst itself. It turned out great, though, as I was able to cover different counter-strategies while never losing focus of my own strategy.

    But then, things got serious and I unleashed a new beast, which propelled me further up.
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Heatran took Sableye's place for a more offensive strategy and it hasn't failed me so far, providing me with more protection against opposing Fire-mons and a powerful Sun exploiter. Accidentally, I ended up with a GFW core around Sun, which is still very tight from Gen IV to now.



    Without further ado, let's take a look at what they can do, shall we?


    Team Analysis

    Lead/Revenge-Killer

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Genesect @Choice Scarf
    Nature: Hasty(+Spe/-Def); 128 Atk, 128 S.Atk, 252 Spe
    Ability: Download

    - U-Turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Analysis: Standard scouter and mixed revenge-killer. Acts primarily as a W.I. counter, putting Tyranitar and Abomasnow in a check-mate position and severely denting Politoed(if he decides to stay in) with U-Turn, while safely introducing Ninetales(and the sun) to the field. Hippowdon is threatened by a +1 Ice Beam to the face. After that, he acts as a revenge-killer, picking off weakened foes and reintroducing Ninetales whenever needed. Perhaps even more importantly, provides a great check against the twin psychic dragons running rampant in the meta right now(especially on pesky Rain teams).


    Weather-Inducer
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ninetales @Chesto Berry
    Nature: Calm(+S.Def/-Atk); 244 S.Def, 240 HP, 24 S.Atk
    Ability: Drought

    - Overheat
    - Will 'o Wisp
    - Roar
    - Rest

    Analysis: Defensive Tales to last for as long as a weather war forces him to. Overheat for hit-and-run tactics, as it should be centered around. Will 'o Wisp against Sandstormers and general physical threats...in tandem with its special bulk, gives it lasting power. Roar to phaze out unwanted Substituters, boosted Heatrans and other stuff, possibly taking advantage of Stealth Rocks. Rest + Chesto to ensure that it'll be staying for a while and turning it into a pseudo-status absorber. In the end, it does everything it's supposed to do: survive and support. Attacking-type Ninetales should be used if Heatran is to be replaced with Sableye.


    Sweeper
    [​IMG]
    Sawsbuck-W @Life Orb
    Nature: Adamant(+Atk/-S.Atk); 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Ability: Chlorophyll

    - Horn Leech
    - Jump Kick
    - Return
    - Swords Dance

    Analysis: The unsung hero of the team. Placed at the right moment, it can single-handedly dismantle entire weather teams, effectively winning you the match. Put him in while it's sunny, S.D. on the W.I. switch and leave your opponent in a check-mate position: he now has to choose between sacrificing his W.I. so that an appropriate counter can enter the field unscathed or offering one of his other pokemon to the slaughter, possibly crippling his own strategy. Also, Life Orb and Horn Leech present incredible synergy, allowing Buck to sweep for more time than any other sweeper, even without a S.D. boost. Just make sure that there are no bulky Grass/Psychic-Poison 'mons or Mach Punchers on the field(i.e. Celebi and Conkeldurr) and you may as well 6-0 your opponent´s team with incredible ease. The choice between Return and Double-Edge is a tricky one. Extra power or less recoil? I choose less recoil because LO really takes its toll after a while and Sawsbuck can be outplayed by an opponent cleverly switching around its lack of coverage.


    Tank/Cleaner
    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @Choice Specs
    Nature: Modest(+S.Atk/-Atk); 252 S.Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Ability: Swift Swim

    - Draco Meteor
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power(Fighting)
    - Sleep Talk

    Analysis: My anti-weather 'mon. When you look at the team, you realize that there's little it can do if an opposing pokémon can take advantage of the Sun you set up. The team is also very vulnerable against careful work around Rain management, especially if Ferrothorn is there and pumping Spikes out during switcheroos. Those just happen to be common Sun team weaknesses and Kingdra solves the entire puzzle beautifully. Even in Sun, it's hardly scathed by Darmanitan's Flare Blitz and/or Flash-boosted Fire Blasts from Heatran and wins the tradeback against both of them with Draco Meteor and HP Fighting respectively. And in Rain, not only it peacefully takes Politoed's attacks but takes advantage of Drizzle for itself in a bizarre twist of the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban. With Choice Specs, it cleans the battlefield of something and gets out barely harmed, waiting for another chance to exploit its magnificent typing and switch back in. Draco Meteor + Hydro Pump provide nearly flawless coverage and HP Fighting rounds out the set taking care of the occasional Heatran and picking off Ferrothorn in a pinch. It also beats Empoleon, who would otherwise wall the sea dragon. Sleep Talk is there because there's little else you could use and many Politoeds carry Hypnosis, so it gives Kingdra usefulness if it's put to sleep unexpectedly. And you can't afford to have Kingdra out of combat at all.


    Back-up Lead/Spinner
    [​IMG]
    Donphan @Custap Berry
    Nature: Adamant(+Atk/-S.Atk); 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Ability: Sturdy

    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock

    Standard SR placer/spinner. Custap Berry allows him to take advantage of his ability Sturdy to surprise a sweeper with EQ, spinning away entry hazards or placing an emergency SR before dying. Takes care of "fuh-ny" Heatrans and Chandelures that might want to pick on Genesect. Also works in tandem with Gene against Tyranitars or lead SR'ers(especially Azelf), if I'm insecure about placing Ninetales on the field or seeing the possbility of neutralizing the entry hazard placing. Must survive until the opposing Stealth Rocker dies, then it can become fodder for tricky entrapments.

    Show Hide

    Disruptor
    [​IMG]
    Sableye @Lum Berry
    Nature: Impish(+Def/-S.Atk); 240 HP, 252 S.Def, 16 Def
    Ability: Mischievous Heart

    - Will o´ Wisp
    - Night Shade
    - Recover
    - Substitute

    Analysis: The independent member of the team, with the sole purpose of stopping sweeps in case my sun strategy backfires somehow. Also provides protection in the form of two invulnerabilities, something that almost the entire team also provides(Gene = poison, Nine = Will O´Wisp, Donp = electric, Buck = Leech Seed and ghost). Lum Berry against other stallers assures me that Sableye has the upper hand.


    Late-gamer
    [​IMG]
    Heatran @Balloon
    Nature: Timid(+Spe/-Atk); 252 S.Atk, 252 Spe, 4 Atk
    Ability: Flash Fire

    - Fire Blast
    - Flame Charge
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Earth Power

    Analysis: He shows up, he Flame-Charges and, if possible, Fire-Blasts stuff away. It's really easy to set him up with Flash Fire and Balloon and, in the Sun, little can stand up to him. Late-game, with the pink blobs and the occasional Jellicent out, he does the dirty work. Balloon and Dragon Pulse allow him to beat other Heatrans, ballooned or not, while the former gives him evasion against Gliscor and latter makes him a dragon killer as well. Earth Power for the standard coverage.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    General notes: This team has presented great success, so far. It's only real problems are well-built defensive Rain teams, with Ferrothorn, Gliscor and Blissey(which happen to be at the very top of the ladder consistently enough). Outside of that, its' winning percentage is very satisfying, giving me a current rating of 1374 on BW Dream World OU(as of June 21st). Outside of the usual hax, not even Sandstorm has the upper hand and the weather wars are tighter than ever. But, since no team is perfect...


    Main threats(so far)

    [​IMG]
    Keldeo: Calm Mind Keldeo can give this team hell, if unchecked. Mystery Sword is almost always the right answer to whatever threat I can present against it. My usual answers are Roaring with Tales if the musketeer gets greedy and Horn Leech from Sawsbuck if I switch in correctly. Both are shaky and can bring disastrous consequences if backfired.

    [​IMG]
    Chansey/Blissey: With only two physical attackers on the team, the pinkies can become an issue very quickly. Working around them and making sure Donphan survives to spin out hazard entries is crucial. Heatran can dent Blissey in the Sun with Fire Blast and Tales can wear it out for a while, absorbing T.Waves in the process if needed.

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor: A stall Gliscor requires careful work around it to be beaten. It's crucial to have Sun around to do so, but Gliscor is common-place in Rain teams now, making the task a bit more difficult.
  2. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    226
    Hmm, I'm going to make a suggestion here, and it may seem wierd, but I think it will help.

    Test Swapping out Cresselia for Slowking with Regeneration. You don't even need to add Water type attacks, but the typing will help by adding a Fire resistance. It can still act like a tank, cripple with Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Psychic, Ice Beam, HP Electric or whatever else you want to put on it.

    Doesn't really solve your Heatran issues though, but you could always employ a Heatran of your own, or, if you want to be really sneaky, Balloon Arcanine. It's actually hugely threatening with Wild Bolt, Close Combat and Extremespeed, not to mention a nifty Fire immunity. With access to Morning Sun as well, I'd almost put him in over Cresselia, but she has the Psychic coverage.

    Speaking of Heatran, Sabeleye is completely walled by it, so you may want to adjust it somehow.
  3. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Okay, I'll list all the suggestions I have:

    • Have a look at this page and try out the Defensive Tales sets, which function the best at staying alive and keeping Sun up. NP Tales risks being pursuited and lacks the power to even 2HKO a lot of things which resist Fire. The Sub+HP Fight set lets it safely WoW TTar before switching out, as well as beating Heatran 1 on 1 if you sub as it comes in, even with SR damage, which is good for your team. ChestoRest meanwhile gives you immense healing which no other inducer can manage, but it may be less useful than the sub set for you.
    • On Mebukijika I would seriously remove Wild Volt - its coverage is pretty much useless with a Grass move. Try out Return or Double-Edge (wood horn helps with the recoil) as an immensely powerful STAB option. You can also take off some Spe and invest in HP or Def to reduce D-E recoil or make it more bulky - see a speed tier table and decide what you want to outspeed.
    • On Cress drop the Psycho Shift - WoW is aleady used better by Sable, and use Lefties with Reflect to enable you to survive Pursuits etc with similar ease. Ice Beam is a preferable option to Charge Beam as she isn't going to be doing any sweeping, and it can hit the dragons who Sun has trouble covering.
    • To the end of helping you with opposing Fire types, who seem to be your biggest threat, consider a Flash Fire poke of your own. Arcanine has CC to deal with Heatran and a useful Extremespeed, Houndoom can NP sweep, Shandy can Sub up and blast holes in walls easily, or your own Heatran can try a NitroCharge set. Not sure what you'd replace though, and you'd need to make further adjustments.
    Hope this helps, and good luck.

    EDIT: A Slowbro or King is probably a good idea over Cress, but you lose the Ground immune, s try to compensate for that somewhere.
  4. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    @jynx: I´ll try Slowking, TWave might be helpful when it comes down to sweeping with other pokes and both can employ defense, although Cress does it much better. I didn´t mention Sableye´s fragility to Heatran because Heatran is a general problem for the whole team, but yes, there´s also this problem.

    @Ben: I´ll be sure to take a look at the Defensive Tales. A Sub set might solve some problems, indeed. But the offensive Tales hasn´t let me down so far. Worth the test. On Mebu, I see your point and it´s definitely strong. I´ll try Double-Edge, but Wild Bolt does covers Water-types who resist Grass. My only doubt is if D-E OHKOs Crobat and/or Gyarados, for example. If they do, indeed D-E takes Wild Bolt´s place easily, although Skarmory becomes a problem. On Cress, yeah...I´ll drop her to a more supportive role and see what happens.

    Finally, for both guys, I´ll keep to my golden rule of Multi-typing. But Arcanine would be a fine suggestion, if Ninetales wasn´t the official Fire-type of the team. Thanks for the valuable suggestions, I´m sure they´ll be of great help. I´ll post the results later.
  5. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Run some tests and Slowbro did the job a bit better, although not as good as Cresselia in general. I´ll go back to Cress for now, on a supporting role.
    Double-Edge on Mebu is working great, so I´m keeping it. Haven´t run into a situation where Wild Bolt was highly needed so far, though.

    Any other suggestions are also highly appreciated.
  6. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    226
    I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner.

    For a Revenge Killer, test taking out Genosect for Sheer Force Nidoking. You lose the momentum of U-Turn, but with Earth Power you can handle some more of your Fire Type issues.

    You still have Poison Immunity, add a Toxic Spikes absorber, and hit like a Flippin' Truck.

    U-Turn and the added speed may send you back to Genosect admittedly, but it's worth testing out.

    I still think Cress needs adjustments, or maybe another Pokemon as the supporting role. Mono-Attack Psychic isn't going to help against Dark types. And are you keeping the Flame Orb?

    I was about to suggest Umbreon, but it doesn't have the screen support or Thunder Wave unfortunately.

    Then I ran across Bronzong, which may be a great choice. Heatproof can even fix some of the issues with the Sun, and it still carries your Psychic attack Supporter with a better defensive typing. Bronzong can run Earthquake, a Psychic Move, and Screens. (Too bad about Thunder Wave though)

    A Flash Fire Pokemon would still be best if you went with Levitate though, and I once again strongly recommend Arcanine for this.

    So many options, too few team slots, and the test options shuffle around your team's typing synergy.

    I've probably confused you more then helped, but I hope I gave you some ideas and got you thinking anyways. These are thoughts not orders, and I hope testing them goes well.
  7. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    I'd seriously advise you using Levitate over Heatproof on Zong - a Ground immunity rather than merely keeping Fire attacks at their normal level in Sun is much better. Also, don't restrict yourself to only using one Fire type if your team would benefit from it. I quite often run up to 3 fire types and 2 grass types on Sun teams and they work fine - variety is not necessarily crucial for an offensive weather team.
  8. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    @jynx: Oops, forgot to change Flame Orb...xD
    And yeah, U-Turn is my lead engine to ensure favorable weather at all times. Too good to pass up.

    @Ben: I have a standard Sun team that has no restrictions whatsoever and it pwns heavily, outside of providing me with loads of fun. Solar Power Scarfzard is one hell of a laugh-bucket.
    That´s why I´m sticking to the multi-type format for this one. I also have a Rain multi-type and a Hail multi-type teams that work wonderfully, for the same reason(check if Politoed and Abomasnow are viable stand-alones).
  9. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Hmm, fair enough, I seem to have missed that even though I read the OP several times lol...

    In that case, consider a strong Fire resist for your team. Kingdra is a possibility - it can still punch holes in things, and Latias's epic SpDef can do similarly well. Rock mons like Regirock do reasonably well, but the Fighting weakness isn't fantastic. Most waters are much less useful without their STAB, which prevents them from dealing with Heatran effectively, so they generally aren't options.
  10. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Hmm...Kingdra might actually not be so bad. It does solve the whole puzzle and, even in sun, hits hard.
    Latias could replace Cress in a supportive role, too. I´ll give those two a try and come back with results.
  11. Benlisted

    Benlisted

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,058
    Go for it - just be sure they can deal with whichever Fire Mons are giving you trouble. Typically you'll have to resort to HPs in order to beat Heatran due to water moves becoming ineffective, but Dragon moves kill all others pretty nicely.

    If you wanted you could always run a Damp Rock and RD Kingdra, who can hit things hard in midgame and clean up later on if things go badly for your Sun elements (as well as actually use water attacks), but I'm not sure if you'd want to split the theme of your team.
  12. The Main

    The Main

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Hi Genesis, nice team you have, its very good to see someone trying out 'Gimmick' Pokes and Weathers, but your team has plenty if glaring problems. Let me address them one by one, I will try to dissect them to avoid tl;dr

    Why are you playing Dream World for a mere Genosect. Techniloom, Tensiontar on rain teams, Shadow Tag Shandera, Overconfidence Heracross run free there, and all of them, yes including Hera, seriously threatens your team, therefore I suggest kicking off Genosect for CSzelf, who can also keep up the momentum, and it smacks stuff harder then Genosect (nice EVs) CSzelf also kills WeatherStarters, allowing you to get a head start, and you are actually quite vulnerable to them.

    Get a backup sweeper, which I recommend, Charizard (covers your threatlist), and replace Sableye with it, which is quite useless given that you have Cresselia to piss people off. If Mebukijika falls, I don't think you stand a chance against midgame.

    Change Mebukijika's moveset to Jump Kick, Return, Wood Horn and SD, as it really needs the longevity, and change Ninetales set to Specially Defensive, as weather starters really need bulk, and I emphasize it on Ninetales, which is the frailest, and fastest of all weather starters. You could replace Dophan's Custap Berry with Lum Berry to escape the aforementioned DW Tier.

    Your team is quite Dragon weak, if you have escaped the DW Tier. Replace Psychic on Cress with Ice Beam to cover it.

    tl;dr Get a Backup sweeper, sack Sableye, replace Double Edge with Return, Make Ninetales SpD Defensive, and get the fuck off DW Tier
  13. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    DW Tier is the funnest to play with, since I don´t plan on breeding this team. But I see your point.
    Some of those changes were considered, but I tested Defensive Tales and it slowed down my game more than I could afford. I did switch the moveset, though.

    Finally, Kingdra was indeed the solution I needed. Working very well. I´ll edit the presentation topic later tonight to cover all the changes done.
  14. K´Genesis

    K´Genesis

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Ressuscitating the thread due to significant changes and astonishing results.
    Full list of changes below:

    - Heatran over Sableye
    - Return over Double-Edge on Sawsbuck
    - Kingdra over Cresselia
    - Defensive Tales over Offensive Tales
    - New threats

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)