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Gen V STABmons
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
- Status
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Espeon's probably there because of 1 combination: Shell Smash + Stored Power. While Judgment is also amazing as a coverage move, Sash has also seen its use with HP Fighting (I've fought and lost to it, so I know). While Shell Smash itself can just be blocked by an Unaware-mon, Stored Power's increase in BP (from 20 to 140 to 260 if you manage to get 2 off) can't be countered (except by Haze, Clear Smog, or Heart Swap, ofc) while Espeon's immunity to all status moves bar secondary effects thanks to Magic Bounce allows it to sweep unimpeded, except by priority, which it could also run (but Espeed doesn't do too much damage with its horrible Attack stat). So what should we do about this?
I didn't find it overcentralizing at all. There are loads of scary Shell Smash sweepers out there, so you should ALREADY be prepared to take them on through any number of routes, but most notably through priority. Pretty much any good STABmons team has at least one form of priority. If Ursaring's Extremespeed is the only answer you have to Shell Smash Espeon, save it.
You also have to consider that it's still pretty difficult to set up with Espeon. Really the only thing it can use to help it set up is Magic Bounce. Otherwise, it's really frail, which makes it really hard to take a hit while you set up.
I can see why Espeon is #1 in usage. It's a really cool, really fun Pokemon. However, it's -not- overcentralizing at all lol.
You also have to consider that it's still pretty difficult to set up with Espeon. Really the only thing it can use to help it set up is Magic Bounce. Otherwise, it's really frail, which makes it really hard to take a hit while you set up.
I can see why Espeon is #1 in usage. It's a really cool, really fun Pokemon. However, it's -not- overcentralizing at all lol.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Good point, but Sash can be a work-around about that, just like it is with Deoxys-A. I guess it isn't that broken/overcentralizing when you think about it.
In my opinion Espeon is good cuz of Shell Smash + Magic Bounce, it doesnt need Stored Power that much to shine (in fact I'd prefer Psystrike). Espeon can set up on ANYTHING that cannot OHKO it, while other setuppers (like Kyurem) fear Status and Taunt. The only thing it doesnt have is priority and defenses that hate ExtremeSpeed, and therefore Espeon should no way be considered ban worthy.
Too bad we cant see sets but Dual Screen Espeon with Recover is also great to support mons like Kyurem and Yanmega and I'm wondering what the % is of offensive and supportive Espeons.
Too bad we cant see sets but Dual Screen Espeon with Recover is also great to support mons like Kyurem and Yanmega and I'm wondering what the % is of offensive and supportive Espeons.
Shell Smash / Stored Power or Psystrike / Judgement
I can count another moveslot, which would most likely be filled with ShadowBall. +2 Shadow Ball hits Max SpD Sableye for 59-71 % damage, so yeah Sableye can counter Espeon but it has to have atleast 72 % of it's HP left to be safe.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Espeon is a pretty cool Pokemon, having the ability to run a lot of sets. The main one is obviously Shell Smash though
Espeon @ Fist Plate / Insect Plate
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Psystrike / Stored Power
- Judgment
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball / Lovely Kiss
This set is pretty simple, Shell Smash and Sweep. Espeon is probably the best Special Shell Smasher in the tier thanks to Magic Bounce and it's stats. Magic Bounce lets it avoid Taunts and Statuses that haunt the others while letting Espeon support its team a little. Psystrike is the best Psychic-STAB available, and it lets Espeon beat the blobs. Stored Power is stronger after a Smash, but Psystrike lets it hit before a smash. Judgement is the best coverage move for Espeon, especially with the Fist Plate. Signal Beam is the third move, since I think it's better than Shadow Ball since it hits the same things with roughly the same power, except it wrecks Celebi, whom could be a problem with Heart Swap + Baton Pass. Lovely Kiss is also an option here, as it lets Espeon put counters to sleep. It also gives it a chance against Sableye if it gets lucky with Sleep Turns. This, however, requires an Insect Plate. Insect Plate Judgement is an option for hitting Psychic-types while still hitting Dark-types if you choose to run Lovely Kiss. You miss out on Steel-types though, so that might not be desirable.
Another interesting set is a full support one, as Espeon has an excellent support movepool. Dual Screen has been mentioned and I think it's pretty good.
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psystrike
- Healing Wish / Lovely Kiss / Softboiled / Baton Pass
Simple set, Dual Screens and Psystrike for STAB. The last three depend on the team. Healing Wish is good for Offensive Teams in the later game, bringing a sweeper back from the brink of death. Lovely Kiss lets Esepon cripple threats, which is good early-game. Softboiled lets Espeon last longer and set up more screens. Baton Pass lets Espeon escape Pursuit. An EV spread of 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP can be used, but Max HP is better imo.
Finally, Espeon now has a reason to be used on Sun Teams over Xatu, using the following set.
Espeon @ Focus Sash / Flame Plate
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Judgement
- Copycat / Encore / Softboiled
- Psystrike
- Lovely Kiss
Focus Sash and Copycat here is used for a reason. Espeon comes in on a hazard setter like Forry or Skarm. If they attack, Focus Sash will make sure you survive their attack and either bring them down to Sturdy or kill them. If they are brought to Sturdy, then Espeon is dead, letting you bring anything to threaten it. Suddenly, Forry can't switch in on anything, meaning it will be almost impossible for it to set up hazards. Meanwhile, if it didn't predict Espeon and goes for Hazards, then you are free to use Copycat while they switch in fear of a potential HP Fire to set up hazards against your opponent. Copycat in general is a pretty cool choice, letting Espeon use moves that the opponent uses against them. Of course, if this is too gimmicky for you, Softboiled and Flame Plate Judgement are an option. Encore is also an option, as it gets similar results as the Copycat scenario above, but less gimmicky than Copcat. If neither is your cup of tea, then Softboiled is an option. For items, Flame Plate Judgement is an option, which has pseudo STAB in Sun and pairs nicely with Psychic STAB. Lovely Kiss lets you cripple something by putting it to sleep. This set should only be used on Sun Teams imo; any other team is better off using either a Baton Pass set or the Dual Screen set.
Espeon @ Fist Plate / Insect Plate
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Psystrike / Stored Power
- Judgment
- Signal Beam / Shadow Ball / Lovely Kiss
This set is pretty simple, Shell Smash and Sweep. Espeon is probably the best Special Shell Smasher in the tier thanks to Magic Bounce and it's stats. Magic Bounce lets it avoid Taunts and Statuses that haunt the others while letting Espeon support its team a little. Psystrike is the best Psychic-STAB available, and it lets Espeon beat the blobs. Stored Power is stronger after a Smash, but Psystrike lets it hit before a smash. Judgement is the best coverage move for Espeon, especially with the Fist Plate. Signal Beam is the third move, since I think it's better than Shadow Ball since it hits the same things with roughly the same power, except it wrecks Celebi, whom could be a problem with Heart Swap + Baton Pass. Lovely Kiss is also an option here, as it lets Espeon put counters to sleep. It also gives it a chance against Sableye if it gets lucky with Sleep Turns. This, however, requires an Insect Plate. Insect Plate Judgement is an option for hitting Psychic-types while still hitting Dark-types if you choose to run Lovely Kiss. You miss out on Steel-types though, so that might not be desirable.
Another interesting set is a full support one, as Espeon has an excellent support movepool. Dual Screen has been mentioned and I think it's pretty good.
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psystrike
- Healing Wish / Lovely Kiss / Softboiled / Baton Pass
Simple set, Dual Screens and Psystrike for STAB. The last three depend on the team. Healing Wish is good for Offensive Teams in the later game, bringing a sweeper back from the brink of death. Lovely Kiss lets Esepon cripple threats, which is good early-game. Softboiled lets Espeon last longer and set up more screens. Baton Pass lets Espeon escape Pursuit. An EV spread of 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP can be used, but Max HP is better imo.
Finally, Espeon now has a reason to be used on Sun Teams over Xatu, using the following set.
Espeon @ Focus Sash / Flame Plate
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Judgement
- Copycat / Encore / Softboiled
- Psystrike
- Lovely Kiss
Focus Sash and Copycat here is used for a reason. Espeon comes in on a hazard setter like Forry or Skarm. If they attack, Focus Sash will make sure you survive their attack and either bring them down to Sturdy or kill them. If they are brought to Sturdy, then Espeon is dead, letting you bring anything to threaten it. Suddenly, Forry can't switch in on anything, meaning it will be almost impossible for it to set up hazards. Meanwhile, if it didn't predict Espeon and goes for Hazards, then you are free to use Copycat while they switch in fear of a potential HP Fire to set up hazards against your opponent. Copycat in general is a pretty cool choice, letting Espeon use moves that the opponent uses against them. Of course, if this is too gimmicky for you, Softboiled and Flame Plate Judgement are an option. Encore is also an option, as it gets similar results as the Copycat scenario above, but less gimmicky than Copcat. If neither is your cup of tea, then Softboiled is an option. For items, Flame Plate Judgement is an option, which has pseudo STAB in Sun and pairs nicely with Psychic STAB. Lovely Kiss lets you cripple something by putting it to sleep. This set should only be used on Sun Teams imo; any other team is better off using either a Baton Pass set or the Dual Screen set.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
tbh, I only got into STABmons when it died down, Personally right now, the community is at it's prime, we have smart thinkers and skilled ladder players, next month's stats will hopefully offer more insight on how the meta actually is in ladder play.
Regardless, the support move/set up move removal shit from normals sounds like a good idea imo, it balances normals to the point where people don't have to run sableye or scarf ttar on every team. The next possible ban I would consider is prankster + sleep, it's simply way too good and makes disabling would be threats WAY too easy, come on, when you played it so your opponent's chansey is at KO range when your special sweeper has set up, and your opponent really played badly, they should not get a "oo I get to auto disable your special sweeper with 1 button and reverse the outcome of the game". While it is a neuter to stuff that needed a niche (whimsi) it definatly patches up the HUGE hole in the cheapness - skill ratio caused by normal STAB and the aforementioned prankster sleep. Come on, games should not be coming down to this crap like whether you have something to sack to prankster sleep, or whether you have a sableye for normal spam, that eliminates too much amounts of skill from the game imo
Regardless, the support move/set up move removal shit from normals sounds like a good idea imo, it balances normals to the point where people don't have to run sableye or scarf ttar on every team. The next possible ban I would consider is prankster + sleep, it's simply way too good and makes disabling would be threats WAY too easy, come on, when you played it so your opponent's chansey is at KO range when your special sweeper has set up, and your opponent really played badly, they should not get a "oo I get to auto disable your special sweeper with 1 button and reverse the outcome of the game". While it is a neuter to stuff that needed a niche (whimsi) it definatly patches up the HUGE hole in the cheapness - skill ratio caused by normal STAB and the aforementioned prankster sleep. Come on, games should not be coming down to this crap like whether you have something to sack to prankster sleep, or whether you have a sableye for normal spam, that eliminates too much amounts of skill from the game imo
EV
Banned deucer.
So here's the top 10:
1 | Espeon | 29.98617%
2 | Politoed | 24.76858%
3 | Kyurem-Black | 20.98800%
4 | Scizor | 19.87936%
5 | Ursaring | 19.86611%
6 | Aerodactyl | 18.06470%
7 | Bibarel | 17.76704%
8 | Sableye | 16.86810%
9 | Keldeo | 16.83456%
10 | Ninetales | 14.32956%
Of those, 2 are effective abusers of Shell Smash (Espeon and Bibarel) and 2 ExtremeSpeed (Ursaring and Bibarel).
If we go into the top 20, we find only 1 more instance of a SS/Espeed abuser (Sawsbuck).
For set-up moves in general, we have 4 users in the top 10 (Espeon, Kyurem-Black, Scizor, and Bibarel) and 4-5 more in top 20 (Sawsbuck, Yanmega, Thundurus-Therian, Jirachi, Metagross). So that's only 8-9 out of the top 20.
Is set-up/SS/Espeed really the issue?
1 | Espeon | 29.98617%
2 | Politoed | 24.76858%
3 | Kyurem-Black | 20.98800%
4 | Scizor | 19.87936%
5 | Ursaring | 19.86611%
6 | Aerodactyl | 18.06470%
7 | Bibarel | 17.76704%
8 | Sableye | 16.86810%
9 | Keldeo | 16.83456%
10 | Ninetales | 14.32956%
Of those, 2 are effective abusers of Shell Smash (Espeon and Bibarel) and 2 ExtremeSpeed (Ursaring and Bibarel).
If we go into the top 20, we find only 1 more instance of a SS/Espeed abuser (Sawsbuck).
For set-up moves in general, we have 4 users in the top 10 (Espeon, Kyurem-Black, Scizor, and Bibarel) and 4-5 more in top 20 (Sawsbuck, Yanmega, Thundurus-Therian, Jirachi, Metagross). So that's only 8-9 out of the top 20.
Is set-up/SS/Espeed really the issue?
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Relying on ladder statistics is really hard to do, for any metagame, 75% of the people who played probably don't know the broken side to STABmons. Heck I was once a foolish ladder player myslef, only wanting to try clever sets, until I got 77 loss-12 win ratio'd on my alt because I wasn't running sableye or my own espeed abuser. Especially considering half my opponents were people who barely knew what a STABmons was, they just slapped 4 Espeeders , forretress and espeon on a team. bottom line is, normal spam is way too strong, and usage shoudn't be a argument, landorus and deoxys-d barely had any usage themselves in regular AND 1850 stats before they got banned from OU. Overall the ladder is hard to tell what's good from
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
I'm kind of surprised at this:
| 17 | Thundurus-Therian | 9.23953%
| 51 | Thundurus | 3.12954%
Obviously Therian has more power, but Prankster and higher speed makes Incarnate a more immediate threat imo as it can potentially parahax your entire team while still being able to sweep, not to mention that with slightly higher attack, Superpower is an option over Focus Blast. At the very least, it should have more usage than just #51.
I'm surprised Metagross' usage isn't as high as Scizor, it can outspeed Keldeo at +2 and revenge it whereas Scizor can't, and Bullet Punch at +1 won't exactly kill kinda (plus must of them run Gear Grind anyways, and probably Brave Bird/Flying Gem Acro for coverage). Early in this meta before we got a ladder on main, Metagross always seemed to get the job done better than Scizor. Scizor still does CB Bullet Punch better I suppose.
| 17 | Thundurus-Therian | 9.23953%
| 51 | Thundurus | 3.12954%
Obviously Therian has more power, but Prankster and higher speed makes Incarnate a more immediate threat imo as it can potentially parahax your entire team while still being able to sweep, not to mention that with slightly higher attack, Superpower is an option over Focus Blast. At the very least, it should have more usage than just #51.
I'm surprised Metagross' usage isn't as high as Scizor, it can outspeed Keldeo at +2 and revenge it whereas Scizor can't, and Bullet Punch at +1 won't exactly kill kinda (plus must of them run Gear Grind anyways, and probably Brave Bird/Flying Gem Acro for coverage). Early in this meta before we got a ladder on main, Metagross always seemed to get the job done better than Scizor. Scizor still does CB Bullet Punch better I suppose.
This may be because I always used Sableye, Check to All the Things, but I have never found SS/ES abusers to be particularly threatening. Espeon and even more so Bibarel were easily stopped by Sableye, while Sawsbuck would only ever cause me trouble due to me routinely forgetting it carried Spore ><
EDIT: On the occasion that I did remember Spore, Sleep Talk Arcanine/Entei were very handy, if somewhat unreliable, checks.
EDIT: On the occasion that I did remember Spore, Sleep Talk Arcanine/Entei were very handy, if somewhat unreliable, checks.
wow how did sawsbuck not get in top 10? He was on almost every team while I played. Oh well.
1) Needs Sun, hardest weather to maintain.
2) Base Stats aren't that great.
3) Spore is nice but loses coverage.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
So your saying uberloom, the one thing to almost be considered for a ban, is meh?
Is this a serious post?
In case it is, allow me:
1) Breloom was never mentioned.
2) Saying something is "meh" is different than giving a possible explanation for something not being top10 in usage statistics; I would say anything that's top50 in usage statistics is hardly "meh".
3) Breloom isnt in the top10 of STABmons either, so how is to be considered for a ban? Or did I miss something here?
you did miss something. he was saying uberloom (sawsbuck) was considerd for a ban.
Ah I wasnt aware that was Sawsbuck's nickname, in that case only 2) applies.
Anyway to talk about the early Sawsbuck ban discussion: At the start of each meta it depends in what state the former meta was. For STABmons that former meta is obviously OU. You can draw the parallell with Breloom very easily who also has relative low BST (except for Attack) yet great abilities, but manages to be a top mon in OU. It's just a matter of comparing it to each other what made Sawsbuck so popular in the early STABmon days. Now the meta has developed more and other threats who have hardly been spoken of at the start show up and dominate the meta differentiating it a lot from standard OU.
To give an example in early BW Reuniclus was almost banned to Ubers (one vote short iirc) because someone found out about how anti-meta it's CM set was and everyone started using it and it was nearly impossible to stop because the meta was very stallish at that time. Now Reuniclus sits at #49 in usage (#46 in 1850 stats). This just shows how metas need time to develop.
Anyway to talk about the early Sawsbuck ban discussion: At the start of each meta it depends in what state the former meta was. For STABmons that former meta is obviously OU. You can draw the parallell with Breloom very easily who also has relative low BST (except for Attack) yet great abilities, but manages to be a top mon in OU. It's just a matter of comparing it to each other what made Sawsbuck so popular in the early STABmon days. Now the meta has developed more and other threats who have hardly been spoken of at the start show up and dominate the meta differentiating it a lot from standard OU.
To give an example in early BW Reuniclus was almost banned to Ubers (one vote short iirc) because someone found out about how anti-meta it's CM set was and everyone started using it and it was nearly impossible to stop because the meta was very stallish at that time. Now Reuniclus sits at #49 in usage (#46 in 1850 stats). This just shows how metas need time to develop.
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
fyi, usage stats are crap, for gods sake even 1850 stats still have latias under top 10, we all have to admit latias at least deserves a fair shot a being higher or equal with latios's usage. There are more notpicks I could go on about, but the STABmons meta hasn't really "evolved", there haven't been new things added really, nothing has been banned since then really, it's more of a thing about TRENDS and LADDER trends changing, for instance, Sawsbuck is still amazing these days, but everybody forgot about it by the time there was a way to test the theorymon about it on main server (OMotm and perma ladders).
ALso, Reuniclus is incredibly amazing in OU still, it's just it struggles with the high powered moves these days, aside from that, it has 0 problem picking away at the fast paced metagame with trick room and it's excellent overall features.
tl;dr: uberloom and RANKEROUSU LOL are still awesome in their perspective metas, also fyi sawsbuck doesn't rely on sun, chloro buck on the "uberloom" set was a new discovery made during the joims lab playabillity era, it was still almost considered uber without the invention of the chlorophyl slash on the set
Totally agree with Thundurus > Thundurus-T. Prankster sub means he's one of the few sweepers who can't be stopped by virtually any sleep move except a max speed Whimsicott's spore, and that aforementioned extra 10 base speed is really helpful with all the Espeons around.
Completely disagree with Scizor > Metagross tho. Technician makes gear grind retardedly strong. Scizor basically hits 1.5x as hard as Metagross any time they both use their main stab. Because of that, Scizor doesn't need to rely on a life orb for that extra punch. He can use leftovers or metal coat. You also get an amazing secondary stab in megahorn, which leaves you a moveslot to use bullet punch (again, boosted by Technician) or roost.
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A boosted Bibarel with aqua jet in the rain should ohko Sableye before it can even use a prankster move. But other than that yeah, Sableye hard walls virtually anything.
I've been using an awesome Sableye set that I stole from some random battler. It's a godly annoyer, and can finish off virtually anything except faster aqua jet/bullet punch users. I don't want to give it away, but you'll see it if you play me.
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