Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[Norne]

Not sure how a Rock/Ghost fossil would work, dam thing WAS dead but isn't now :P.

Rock/Electric is sooooo easy. Triceratops, have the horns work like large power conduits and call it a day xD.

Hopefully this is not a gen where they decide to buck to many trends and kick the fossils out...

Ghost was never dead, I blame the Sinnoh hillbilly syndrome for that, most are just very specific animals with parasitic/predatory behavior for life force.

Several of the animals on the Cambrian period had weird mouth structures and soft bodies, the fosilisation process could cause it to gain rock type. There are loads and loads of soft body predators that could be abused for this without even starting with the vertebrate family.

 

[SheerForce]

First off, MY FIRST SMOGON POST EVER YAY


With that in mind, I'm a little tardy to the party on the Drampa discussion, but I've heard that certain design factors indicate it could be the long-awaited evolution of a certain early-gen Poke whose name starts with the same letter and ends with "unsparce" :)

 

[Tsutsayosdi]

With that in mind, I'm a little tardy to the party on the Drampa discussion, but I've heard that certain design factors indicate it could be the long-awaited evolution of a certain early-gen Poke whose name starts with the same letter and ends with "unsparce" :)

If that actually happened, I wouldn't bat an eye but I'm not counting on it. Vague color and aesthetics similarities are not enough for me to consider that any kind of strong indication.

 

[deluge]

First off, MY FIRST SMOGON POST EVER YAY


With that in mind, I'm a little tardy to the party on the Drampa discussion, but I've heard that certain design factors indicate it could be the long-awaited evolution of a certain early-gen Poke whose name starts with the same letter and ends with "unsparce" :)

Welcome.
Design-wise Dunspace could be a larval form of Drampa but it's likely another Luvdisc/Alomomola deal where they look like they could be related but aren't.
I wouldn't complain about Dunsparce getting to use Eviolite though!

EDIT: Also, I think (hope?) the Hidden Power calculation will be revamped for Gen VII.
Currently, there's no HP Fairy because they're still using the same formula from Gen V.
I would actually be OK with HP no longer being derived from IVs but being it's own heritable data like Natures.
Basically, the Pokemon data structure gets a Hidden Power field. Pokemon transferred from older games intialize it using the old IV calc; wild Alola Pokemon get it randomly with possible Synchronize influence.

 

[Xen]

I'll sell my soul to Giratina if eviolite Qwilfish and Dunsparce become a thing

I seriously doubt Drampa is an evolution to Dunsparce (they're two entirely different concepts, and they don't even look alike to me), and I doubt we'll see any cross-gen evolutions in SuMo or the forseeable future. Game Freak seems to be actively avoiding cross-gen evos since Gen IV (with the exception of Eevee, who is GF's special snowflake) due to them being very hit-or-miss to the fans.

Megas in Gen VI were, in their own way, a fill-in for new evolutions, and Alola forms for this Gen seem to be a compromise between megas and cross-gen evos for Gen I Pokemon atm (if Alola forms extend beyond RBY mons or not remains to be seen).

 

[deluge]

Some nice Pokemon like Kingra, Honchkrow, Weavile and Gliscor are cross-gen evos.
They never bothered me but perhaps some fans don't like when their faves become pre-evos and kind of obsolete.

GF might have been trying to tackle that in a number of ways.
1) Eviolite [Gen V] to give pre-evos a boost
2) Megas [Gen VI] to introduce a kind of evolution that still requires use of the original form.
3) Alolan forms [Gen VI] to spin off existing Pokemon without affecting the original lines

I think GF understands the appeal of upgrading old Pokemon and it's something they have consistently done.
In addition to the new Pokemon each generation I look forward to any new toys that my fave old Pokemon will get.
Scizor is itself a GS cross-gen evo of Scyther but Technician wasn't gained until DP and almost every move it commonly runs today (Bullet Punch, U-Turn, Roost, Superpower) was also gained then.
I also remember egg-move expansions during HGSS that gave us stuff like Recover Quagsire and Brave Bird Honchkrow. New stuff for old mon is one of the best things to discover in new games IMO.

 

[Norne]

Indeed, Scizor was really mediocre until BP happened and recover unaware quaggy are the absolute best things to happen to him.

I prefer this kind of stuff over some stupid trade with an item evolution or stuff locking me out of a pokemon after I beat the league wich sadly where GSC and DP problems.

 

[Siggu]

Some nice Pokemon like Kingra, Honchkrow, Weavile and Gliscor are cross-gen evos.
They never bothered me but perhaps some fans don't like when their faves become pre-evos and kind of obsolete.

GF might have been trying to tackle that in a number of ways.
1) Eviolite [Gen V] to give pre-evos a boost
2) Megas [Gen VI] to introduce a kind of evolution that still requires use of the original form.
3) Alolan forms [Gen VI] to spin off existing Pokemon without affecting the original lines

I think GF understands the appeal of upgrading old Pokemon and it's something they have consistently done.
In addition to the new Pokemon each generation I look forward to any new toys that my fave old Pokemon will get.
Scizor is itself a GS cross-gen evo of Scyther but Technician wasn't gained until DP and almost every move it commonly runs today (Bullet Punch, U-Turn, Roost, Superpower) was also gained then.
I also remember egg-move expansions during HGSS that gave us stuff like Recover Quagsire and Brave Bird Honchkrow. New stuff for old mon is one of the best things to discover in new games IMO.

Also Sacred Fire Entei and lol Flare Blitz Flareon.

(And Bullet Punch Scizor actually happened in Platinum, but whatever, that's not the point. Same with Outrage on most Dragon-type Pokemon)

 

[Doubt]

I'll sell my soul to Giratina if eviolite Qwilfish and Dunsparce become a thing

I seriously doubt Drampa is an evolution to Dunsparce (they're two entirely different concepts, and they don't even look alike to me), and I doubt we'll see any cross-gen evolutions in SuMo or the forseeable future. Game Freak seems to be actively avoiding cross-gen evos since Gen IV (with the exception of Eevee, who is GF's special snowflake) due to them being very hit-or-miss to the fans.

Megas in Gen VI were, in their own way, a fill-in for new evolutions, and Alola forms for this Gen seem to be a compromise between megas and cross-gen evos for Gen I Pokemon atm (if Alola forms extend beyond RBY mons or not remains to be seen).

Honestly, I feel it's a real shame that GF seems to have gone away from cross-generation evolutions, because I feel like these is a really good way to breathe new life into pokemon. I mean, sure megas work, but what if the mega falls flat? You've essentially locked yourself out from any further progress on the pokemon. Take Mega-Audino; it's in NU, and Audino's in PU. Now if you want to improve Audino, you have a few options, most of which are distasteful; 1 - Give Audino a new evo, leaving you with an NFE pokemon that mega-evolves (might not be a big deal if they decide to give Pikachu a mega), vastly overhaul Audino's base stats, change one of Audino's abilities, give it some crazy OP move, or, the less distasteful option, an Alolan form (although that'd be interesting to go with megas)
Anyway, just a thought from someone who liked cross-generation evos.

 

[Norne]

Honestly, I feel it's a real shame that GF seems to have gone away from cross-generation evolutions, because I feel like these is a really good way to breathe new life into pokemon. I mean, sure megas work, but what if the mega falls flat? You've essentially locked yourself out from any further progress on the pokemon. Take Mega-Audino; it's in NU, and Audino's in PU. Now if you want to improve Audino, you have a few options, most of which are distasteful; 1 - Give Audino a new evo, leaving you with an NFE pokemon that mega-evolves (might not be a big deal if they decide to give Pikachu a mega), vastly overhaul Audino's base stats, change one of Audino's abilities, give it some crazy OP move, or, the less distasteful option, an Alolan form (although that'd be interesting to go with megas)
Anyway, just a thought from someone who liked cross-generation evos.

They really don't give a damn cucumber about smogon tiering, just picture the terror of eviolite regenerator audino if that thing actually evolved.

VGC is sadly what they aim for and it gave us something laughable in inner focus mega gallade to counter khangaskan...that was their train of thought actually. We should thank God that lopunny came out OK and didn't end up as mega mence.

 

[Doubt]

VGC is sadly what they aim for and it gave us something laughable in inner focus mega gallade to counter khangaskan...

It honestly is a shame they balance for doubles. It feels...I dunno, sorta wrong, like, I feel like singles is the 'default' playstyle, and balancing only for doubles makes a lot of pokemon less viable than they could be in regular play. I mean, I think it'd be much better if we got some more focus on other types of battles; balance X move for triples/rotations, X move for singles, heck, maybe even inverse battles. Would give a lot more pokemon more uses in different situations, especially if they made some more in-game things have different battle styles (How about a league where each of the E4 specializes in a different battle style? That'd be awesome). From what I understand VGC isn't the most stable meta (I mean, almost unrestricted pokemon - Mega Rayquaza is A-ok but Soul Dew is banned? M-Rayquaza has a higher BST with no restrictions, and while it doesn't have the SpA or SpD of the Latis + Soul Dew, it's still enormously OP), and balancing for one specific meta that isn't even stable just....doesn't seem wise to me. Food for thought.

 

[stage7_4]

The main reason they push VGC doubles is that true singles takes a LONG time (in comparison to other formats), while VGC doubles matches are relatively quick.

BUT NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT SUN AND MOON SO LET'S MOVE ON!

And I honestly can't gush enough about the look and feel of this new generation. Just the background updates, new UI, character models, the pre-battle fade-in shot, it's just really pushed the game to a new level without changing too much.

Heck, they could have just done the graphical updates and not added any new pokemon and I'd still be impressed by this game.

One last thing, it really seems like they are pushing a Hawaiian flavor in the new pokemon. While other regions would have some "local flavor" (Braviary for Unova for example), this is the furthest they've ever taken a regional style in their pokemon design. And that's without even considering the Aloha forms!

 

[Siggu]

It honestly is a shame they balance for doubles. It feels...I dunno, sorta wrong, like, I feel like singles is the 'default' playstyle, and balancing only for doubles makes a lot of pokemon less viable than they could be in regular play. I mean, I think it'd be much better if we got some more focus on other types of battles; balance X move for triples/rotations, X move for singles, heck, maybe even inverse battles. Would give a lot more pokemon more uses in different situations, especially if they made some more in-game things have different battle styles (How about a league where each of the E4 specializes in a different battle style? That'd be awesome). From what I understand VGC isn't the most stable meta (I mean, almost unrestricted pokemon - Mega Rayquaza is A-ok but Soul Dew is banned? M-Rayquaza has a higher BST with no restrictions, and while it doesn't have the SpA or SpD of the Latis + Soul Dew, it's still enormously OP), and balancing for one specific meta that isn't even stable just....doesn't seem wise to me. Food for thought.

VGC's bans are based on availability - mythical Pokemon, cover legendaries (Except this year), event/unique items... not power.

 

[Norne]

VGC's bans are based on availability - mythical Pokemon, cover legendaries (Except this year), event/unique items... not power.

Here it wasn't about power but about usage and centralization, banning for just ingame status or bst would leave some big issues as well.

Sadly this is kinda relevant to SM since they want to stay relevant as an Esport and their cover legends might as well be as catchy or overabused as in gen4 with its movies.

Their attempts at making a watchable fast paced metagame can hinder the singles format in the long run.

I just hope our beloved sandcastle is evidence that concept vs competitive is still a thing and they suck because it makes sense with the design, unlike gallade where competitive for doubles was it's downfall in singles when it still sucks for doubles.

Never forget GF surprise at Aeigislash being used as an special attacker.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Indeed, Scizor was really mediocre until BP happened and recover unaware quaggy are the absolute best things to happen to him.

I prefer this kind of stuff over some stupid trade with an item evolution or stuff locking me out of a pokemon after I beat the league wich sadly where GSC and DP problems.

I actually enjoyed figuring out how to get trade evos to work as a child. There is a charm to having something a bit awkward to figure out. I also rather be locked out of a final stage of a mon than not being able to get the family at all naturally within the game. Not everything needs to be around pre-e4. After all, ideally there is more game play after the e4. Of course, not the such content really matters any more as the games keep becoming more and more easy T.T to the moment that competitive is almost the only reason to get them now.

 

[Magcargo]

http://www.serebii.net/

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Gold Bottle caps confirmed to boost IVs to their highest possible value.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

http://www.serebii.net/

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Gold Bottle caps confirmed to boost IVs to their highest possible value.

Just need a confirmation that we can get these in game normally now and that they aren't going to be the equivalent to the HA starters in 5thg en (there to sell other products).

 

[Norne]

I actually enjoyed figuring out how to get trade evos to work as a child. There is a charm to having something a bit awkward to figure out. I also rather be locked out of a final stage of a mon than not being able to get the family at all naturally within the game. Not everything needs to be around pre-e4. After all, ideally there is more game play after the e4. Of course, not the such content really matters any more as the games keep becoming more and more easy T.T to the moment that competitive is almost the only reason to get them now.

Are you going to tell me that Sneasel in DP didn't make you feel cheated out of a pokemon? Or Glaceon and to an extent Leafeon, Pt fixed this a bit except for leafeon movepool being memetic bad like Flareon.

Slowking, Seadra, Scizor and Steelix are bad offenders as it is, I once used Slowking in silver and boy it was awesome a game breaker unlike slowbro becoming a late game Evo on chikorita runs.

You can't let your non wifi audience feel cheated as it hinders replayability a lot when you can't use the tools the game just introduced, this would be the equivalent of the infinity +1 sword in Diablo, you killed everything in the game to get it, it has the highest damage potential...but everything that was challenging is dead already so what's the point if it?

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Are you going to tell me that Sneasel in DP didn't make you feel cheated out of a pokemon? Or Glaceon and to an extent Leafeon, Pt fixed this a bit except for leafeon movepool being memetic bad like Flareon.

Slowking, Seadra, Scizor and Steelix are bad offenders as it is, I once used Slowking in silver and boy it was awesome a game breaker unlike slowbro becoming a late game Evo on chikorita runs.

You can't let your non wifi audience feel cheated as it hinders replayability a lot when you can't use the tools the game just introduced, this would be the equivalent of the infinity +1 sword in Diablo, you killed everything in the game to get it, it has the highest damage potential...but everything that was challenging is dead already so what's the point if it?

Not at all cheated. Weavile was after all able to be gotten before the E4, the claw was in victory road (I even used it in my first D/P play through, it was the bomb.)....All the ones you listed for S/G also could be gotten before the E4. As far as Leafeon and Glaceon go, why is it bad that you can't get them in D/P until after the E4? I mean you can't get eevee so you don't even have an evolution line being cut in half there bud. Hell, having new mons not able to be gotten until post game gives you a reason to keep playing as it shows off that there are still more new mons to be found. It is actually a flipping wonderful idea. I know that my little brother was so happy to figure out he could evolve Togetic into Togekiss that he went on a quest to figure out who else could evolve after the E4. Talk about a clever way to expand game play. As far as every challenging is dead, tower? Sure it is not really all the challenging but then again using challenging and in game in the same sentence seriously is silly. The games never have been really challenging in the slightest and they keep getting easier. And as far as Leafeon's movepool goes, every game has mons that suck for one reason or another. So I don't have an issue with it.

Edit: Not to mention that it allowed for in game pre-E4 toys that you can't have before the E4 in the first games of the gen, which means you as in game players only have something new to use. Megas have kind of done this in 6th, but you can only really use one.

 

[Magcargo]

Pokemon getting new moves is pretty exciting and honestly does a lot for certain Pokemon depending on the Pokemon, arguably moreso than getting a new Mega Evo or Evolution. Things like Crawduant getting Dragon Dance or Quagsire getting recover in HGSS were pretty great additions that went a long way in turning these mons from throw away Pokemon to actually threatening sweepers / walls. XY was pretty good with movepool changes and the new moves they gave certain Pokemon made them significantly more threatening (things like Sacred Fire Entei, Aqua Jet Crawdaunt, and Drill Run Escavalier). They also gave Mega Evolution Pokemon Lines completely new moves that they have never been able to Before in order to abuse their new abilities (stuff like Bullet seed Heracross, Dragon Pulse Squirtle, etc.) which was really exciting and got me hyped for the new possibilities that ORAS could introduce with its Mega Evolutions and their new movepools and stats. I was disappointed greatly when I found out that nothing in ORAS got new eggs moves. Really hoping that Sun and Moon doesn't disappoint me like ORAS did in this regard (give me my recover Goodra and Focus Blast Mega Pidgeot please).

 

[Taistelu]

http://www.serebii.net/

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Gold Bottle caps confirmed to boost IVs to their highest possible value.

All or one?

 

[Pikachu315111]

Fossil Talk

Wouldn't be to sure on any fossil being based on an animal from Hawaii really. No fossil pokemon has ever been from the region the game was based on.

True, just mentioned as it seems like just from the Pokemon revealed so far their trying to stick with animals from Hawaii, Australia, New Zealand, Galapagos Islands, and other isolated islands (in terms of wildlife).

I think they will theme them on tropical animals, but since Hawaii is rather lacking in the fossil department, I am dam sure they will be picking from other areas fossils. Especially as there are some amazing and wacky creatures still untouched; Stegosaurus, Deinocheirus, Therizinosaurus, Platybelodon, Triceratops, Parasaurolophus or Dunkelosteus (looks like a fish combined with a bear-trap, it is horrific).

The reason I suggested Mosasaurus/Megalodon/Plesiosaurus and another Pterasaur was due to me thinking of what prehistoric animal would develop on or around a big island. A marine and flying animal seemed like obvious choices as they wouldn't be land locked so could travel between the islands and the mainland easily. Though GF could break the mold once more and have a fossil Pokemon for each island showing how that island was like in ancient times (though the Hawaiian islands are only a few million years old, long past the age of the dinosaurs).

It just doesn't seem like the right location for a Stegosaurus, Triceratops, or other larger prehistoric animals. However smaller ones are a possible option.

Also, Mosasaurus and Plesiosaurus, not dinosaurs. And as Lapras is a Plesiosaurus as you mentioned, I do not think it will be done again. Also Megalodon is reaaaally boring, it is just a big great white, nothing more.

Details, details. :P Also Larvitar/Tyranitar were essentially t-rex but they made the Tyrunt family. Also Lapras is a very loose Plesiosaur, being it has a shell and horn an much more stouter. And just cause Megalodon is just a really big shark doesn't mean GF has to stay on model, heck maybe they could combine the Mosasaurus and Megalodon together.

One interesting thing they could do would be Alolan form fossils of older pokemon. Rock/Dragon Aerodactyl anyone? Or perhaps Rock/Poison Omastar?

Nah, the reason Alolan Pokemon are the way they are is because they've adapted over the years to Alolan's environmnet. Fossil Pokemon are fossils because they couldn't adapt or evolved into something else.

started from gen 4, and gen 5 only had a single dinosaur fossil.

And don't give me the "pterosaurs aren't dinosaurs", to me and many others dinosaur is already a pretty vague term used to describe the prehistoric reptilian creatures. Pterosaurs, Mesosaur, and Plesiosaur fit pretty nicely in that vague description.

Fossil pokemon actually have very strong parameters, they have to be based on an extinct animal, no more no less. And from a palaeontologist point of view each fossil pokemon is very faithful to the real animals, hell they even went as far as giving the T-Rex feathers once a close cousin of T-Rex was dug up with thick feathers on it.

I'm pretty sure there weren't any bipedal Eurypterids and Anomalocaris.

Not sure how a Rock/Ghost fossil would work, dam thing WAS dead but isn't now :P.

Hopefully this is not a gen where they decide to buck to many trends and kick the fossils out...

I had an idea for a Ghost Fossil Pokemon: it looked like a stereotpyical bedsheet ghost (not unlike the original Lavender Tower Ghosts sprite) with scythe for tar coming from any openings they had. They were the spirits of prehistoric animals that died in tar pits and their spirit couldn't escape as it was trapped inside the body.

Gen II didn't have Fossils so there is a precedence, just like how not all gens have new Eeveelutions.

All or one?

That's what I want to know. Silver Cap increases a single stat to their highest it seemed, so what about the Gold? Multiple or all to max?

 

[Zowayix]

That's what I want to know. Silver Cap increases a single stat to their highest it seemed, so what about the Gold? Multiple or all to max?

Based on the attached screenshot on Serebii it looks like it is all to max.

 

[Tyranitar.armaldo]

And don't give me the "pterosaurs aren't dinosaurs", to me and many others dinosaur is already a pretty vague term used to describe the prehistoric reptilian creatures. Pterosaurs, Mesosaur, and Plesiosaur fit pretty nicely in that vague description.

Nope nope nope, I will not let you get away with that :P. And I WILL give you the Pterosaurus are not dinosaurs line, because they are not.
Dinosaur is a specific clade of animals, which Pterosaurus are NOT part of. Yes to many people dinosaur is anything that is a dead reptile, but that is something that has to be quashed from the public mindset; it's like calling a Lion a dog. Just because they are both four legged furry meat-eaters does not make them family.

I'm pretty sure there weren't any bipedal Eurypterids and Anomalocaris.

True, but you have to "pokemonify" them somehow, but the rest of Kabutops's body for example does look pretty identical to a sea scorpion. Also I was more thinking of Armaldos basal form Anorith, which (apart from the eyes) is almost identical to an Anomalacaris.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Nope nope nope, I will not let you get away with that :P. And I WILL give you the Pterosaurus are not dinosaurs line, because they are not.
Dinosaur is a specific clade of animals, which Pterosaurus are NOT part of. Yes to many people dinosaur is anything that is a dead reptile, but that is something that has to be quashed from the public mindset.

Fine, in the name of SCIENCE(!) I'll agree the first (fossil) dino Pokemon weren't introduced until Gen IV.

It's like calling a Lion a dog. Just because they are both four legged furry meat-eaters does not make them family.

But just cause I agree with ya doesn't mean I'm not going to troll a little. ;P

True, but you have to "pokemonify" them somehow, but the rest of Kabutops's body for example does look pretty identical to a sea scorpion. Also I was more thinking of Armaldos basal form Anorith, which (apart from the eyes) is almost identical to an Anomalacaris.

So why can't they "pokemonify" the Mosasaur and/or Megalodon?