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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime You play victimless, but you gave the kiss of death
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    Doubles Queen

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    Terrakion + whimsicott was a very common vgc strat, and not a gimmick in any way. If you have a pokemon to stop it it's not that scary but if you don't your team gets swept lol
  2. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Terracott perfectly fits the definition of gimmick, plus we already went over Terracott in the thread, plus there was just a post about this thread getting unproductive replies... Oh plus, this isn't VGC. It isn't even a viable gimmick in Smogon Doubles.
    In singles, if you have a pokemon that stops bellydrum (insert Pokemon here) it's not that scary, but if you don't your team gets swept lol. They're both gimmicks. They have unreliable set ups and unreliable executions with a possibility of wow factor.
    Try to make a productive post; people ignore 95% of it and shout TERRACOTT LEGIT BRO
  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I like being an example, good or bad. I'm not trying to threadhog though. It just gets too quiet in here. We seriously need our own board guys. I can get a Doubles Game faster than I can gt an NU or RU game.

    I will always love Ferroboss because it's Ferroboss. There's nothing else to say about it.

    But yes to improved discussions and less 1 liners about "OMG THIS THING ROCKS LOL HOW DOES THIS WORK?" Please start using the IRC client folks. I'm pretty much retarded when it comes to this crap and I got it figured out (with some help of course.)

    Now, Skill Swap is a good thing, but Cresselia has such a case of 4MSS (so does Blissey really) and there are SO many more good options out there that Skill Swap usually falls short. Skill Swapping Levitate onto Heatran is amazing, but why not just kill the EQ user with something else you have.

    Let's talk a bit about Follow Me/Rage Powder.

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/follow_me

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/rage_powder

    This move annoys me to hell and back, as it can really screw up some strategies, but it can truly be a boon if used correctly.

    One of my (least) favorite users is Lucario. It's so unexpected, but it does so very well at absorbing moves.

    Thoughts?
  4. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime You play victimless, but you gave the kiss of death
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    Doubles Queen

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    the best to users are easily togekiss and amoongus, both with good stats on the defensive side and Amoongus having an extremely good defensive typing. One of my better teams uses Rage Powder Amoongus to absorb attacks well I set up trick room then shoot off a spore before it dies. Amoongus is easily one of the best pokemon in the doubles metagame, mostly thanks to this move alone,
  5. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    I haven't encountered many Rage Powder/Follow Me users at this stage actually.
    To be honest I'm questioning the use of Lucario as a Follow Me user especially in a metagame where I see a lot of moves like Earthquake, Close Combat and generally powerful moves being thrown around. I think it could work on him.. but I'm sure he will be KO'd quite easily.. maybe even by the first shot thus allowing the slower of the opponent's 2 pokemon to hit the pokemon that he didn't want hit. Nonetheless.. I'd still like to see it in use!

    And even Amoongus.. I have not seen this guy around at all. I know that it is rather popular in the VGC but I think a lot of people are currently making more offensive teams with Paralysis support. I'm not sure how Amoongus will fit in at the moment with this fast paced metagame..but I have not seen many fire moves being blasted anyway.. so maybe he could be effective I guess
  6. VarunR

    VarunR

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    I haven't seen much of Rage Powder/Follow Me either, but when I have it's difficult to take down, especially when it is supporting Trick Room. Lucario not so much, but Togekiss can be annoying.

    Talking about useful abilities, with Intimidate users on half of the teams that's there, Defiant is a great way to use it in your favour instead. Bisharp, although not among the elite, carves out a niche for himself with it, coupled with his extremely good attack stat and Sucker Punch priority, along with plenty of resistances and immunities (0.25x from Rock Slide and 0.5 to Icy Wind, immunity to Psyshock) and ability to counter TR teams. Metagross outclasses him (same role, better stats, Clear Body), but it doesn't have access to STAB Sucker Punch/Night Slash.

    Bisharp has his great moment in this game.
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8508167 (Yay Wide Guard!)

    ETA: there aren't many niche users of Defiant though. Thundurus and Tornadus forms have it, but they're better off with their main abilities than Defiant. Rest are mediocre pokemon.
  7. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    Personally I am running a Metagross right now but I have been considering switching him out for a Bisharp. I see a lot of Landorus-T, Hitmontop and even the odd Qwilfish and I think there it appears that there are plenty of opportunities to get a boost for Bisharp. Although I'd imagine running a Bisharp would cause the opponent to be more cautious with their intimidate users. I can also see him being one of the better pokemon to check Cresselia, especially under a substitute where Cress can't touch him. Right now the only things stopping me from using Bisharp over Metagross is the fact that Metagross has naturally better stats and the STAB Bullet Punch has saved me so many times. I can really only see Bisharp being more effective if it does manage to get the Defiant boost
  8. peng

    peng

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    Follow Me Luke would actually be okay if stuff like Latios / Latias / Hydreigon / Salamence were more common, since its main niche as a FM user is its Dragon resistance. It was decent in VGC10 because it could tank some hits from Palkia / Giratina / Dialga / Abomasnow etc and let you just throw around big attacks with your own dragon as a result. I personally don't see many dragons or Abomasnow on ladder however, so idk if its really worth a teamslot.

    I guess something like this could work though:

    Salamence @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest / Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Heat Wave
    - Tailwind / something
    - Protect

    Lucario @ Sitrus Berry / Chople Berry
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 HP / 188 SDef / 68 Spd
    Careful Nature
    - Follow Me
    - Detect
    - Low Kick / Drain Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed / Helping Hand / Heal Pulse

    Lucario can redirect loads of the attacks that are commonly used vs Salamence; Draco Meteor, Ice Shard, Ice Beam, Hidden Power [Ice], Thunder Wave from Thundurus-I, Fake Out etc. It also gets some cool other support moves like Helping Hand and Heal Pulse.
  9. VarunR

    VarunR

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    Also Bisharp is more effective against Rain and Sun teams than Metagross. Bisharp does a great job of taking down Swift Swim/Chrolophyll/faster users at 1/3 health with STAB Sucker Punch, which is often neutral, contrary to Metagross whose BP is resisted by most rain and sun pokemon.

    Recently replaced Helping Hand on my Cresselia with Moonlight, and now she just doesn't go down. I'm running 252HP, 252SpD with Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Psyshock and Moonlight, on a Sun-based team. She's not exactly broken though, it's just that people don't run Toxic/Taunt more. Murkrow is a nightmare for Cresselia, but I only saw one in my last fifteen games.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8521112 (Thunder Wave all around, but Cresselia comes up on top.)
  10. Mymom234

    Mymom234

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  11. MarshallLeRoy

    MarshallLeRoy

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    Quoting an old post but I wanted to give Smogon Doubles a try, and used this team as the first one posted in the thread. And honestly it works great. Skymin just absolutely wrecks things, while Kingdra+Mew, and Landorus-T+Hitmontop are amazing partners.

    Rain is definitely not the dominating threat that it is in singles OU, rather a nice complimentary tactic. Helping Hand boosted Muddy Waters from Kingdra in rain dent everything. The one thing I love about having weather is I constantly have to prepared for opposing teams, even without Politoed, to take advantage of it. Had a nervous moment where an opponent brought Tornadus-T into my drizzle opening and I had to act quickly to dispatch it.

    Trick Room seems like a really powerful tactic to use, but it is incredibly predictable and a team immediately knows who to target. I find the best teams, and the hardest ones to defeat, have multiple strategies that simply don't rely on one field effect or gimmick, but have great team wide synergy to punch holes in team. Honestly, if any one Pokemon works amazing and provides something new with three or four other team members, then the team can be incredibly potent.

    I honestly love this tier, and can't wait to have some time to build a proper and original team myself. Doubles has as much strategy as singles, but has a way faster pace. Hope this tier gets approved as official very soon.
  12. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Rage Powder / Follow Me pretty much ensures Trick Room to go up without fail. It's also great when paired with a nuke like Kyurem-Black, who is not too vulnerable to spread moves. Mr.lol paired Kyurem-Black with Follow Me Togekiss, and it allowed Kyurem-Black to get that extra kill it would not have otherwise obtained.

    Bisharp is one of the underrated mons like Musharna that makes a splash in Smogon Doubles because of how Defiant take advantages of Intimidate and double Intimidates that are thrown around here. Combine that with a strong powerful Sucker Punch, and it sure proves to be a nuisance to face.

    PenguX, using Lucario as a support Follow Me user is creative ;d It's cool that Lucario can also dispatch STAB Blizzard and Rock Slide users for Salamence as well. I may even try setting up Dragon Dance with Salamence, since Draco Meteor would force Salamence out.

    MarshellLeroy, I'm glad you're enjoying this metagame :) Solace's team is definitely solid. If I were to change anything, I would give Shaymin-Sky Yache Berry, since Fire moves are already halved in the Rain; it's nice to dampen the power of Ice Shard, Icy Wind, and random HP Ice. Lum Berry on Kingdra is good, too, since most Dragons can still kill through Haban anyways, and status protection always comes in handy. Alternatively, you can replace Politoed's HP Grass or Focus Blast for Surf and give Kingdra Absorb Bulb to receive 50% SpA boost from Toed's Surf.

    Building a Doubles Team is quite similar to Singles. In fact I'd say that it's even more flexible than singles, because your Pokemon has another Partner to overcome offensive or defensive (via Follow Me, Wide Guard, etc) shortcomings. Always have offensive partners that can break through each other's counters, and make sure to have a Pokemon that can switch into moves to which your partner is weak.
  13. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    For those who think that Doubles is just short battles, here's a 59 Turn Battle:Audiosurfer vs. Hapless Hero.
    This sorta leads into the next point I'd like to make, which is that Suicune is a great mon in Doubles. I've been using CroCune to some success on my hail team recently, with it being able to wear down the opponent to open up holes for my Hail sweepers (this happened in a match with PenguinX which I unfortunately didn't save a replay for) and attempting sweeps of its own after a few CM boosts. Tailwind Suicune is another set I've used and had success with, as Tailwind support can be pretty valuable for outspeeding threats that could otherwise be really dangerous. It also has mono-Water typing, which is great offensively and defensively, and it has great bulk. All of these make a valuable and versatile Pokemon that can be really effective with proper support. Pressure can also be useful to stall out the many dangerous but low PP moves out there. So yeah. Try Suicune out people, you won't be disappointed.
  14. Skore

    Skore

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    I find Victini to be a great anti-trick room Pokemon. If you can get the V-Create in on the turn they use TR then they've just opened themselves wide open.

    The TR users are usually quite bulky and don't have much offensive presence so if you use him to go after their partners to stop the sweep it can kill their strat right away.
  15. Jean mi

    Jean mi

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    I use a trick room team myself and the thing that annoy me the most is taunt, fake out is also quite annoying even though it only works once. Encoring after a trick room reverts back to normal room.

    Taunt and encore, particularly with prankster are excellent to face many set up strategies if you have difficulty with them.
  16. Skore

    Skore

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    I have other methods to deal with it on my team (including a TR user of my own to reverse it if needed) but depending on the match up, sometimes you want to let them get over confident and think they're about to execute their gameplan perfectly and then BAM - Fire gem boosted V-Create to the face and now Victini 'outspeeds' their sweepers under TR forcing them to target him to deal with the problem leaving my "slower" pokemon to get some damage in.

    He won't work in every team but if some people are hurting for a mon on their team that can help deal with TR, he's a useful ace to have up your sleeve.
  17. Jean mi

    Jean mi

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    That's smart indeed. In doubles, I would rather use Victini to take advantage of its ability that also boosts its team mate accuracy. It may be useful for rock slide/heat wave or WoW or sleep powder. Anyone tried to abuse this ability ?
  18. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    While Victini's ability truly can be game changing by increasing move accuracy by 10%.. I just see Victini not having the longevity to last many turns especially with its weaknesses to common attacking types in the metagame, as well as a 2x weakness to 3 of the most common spread moves in the game being : Earthquake, Rock Slide and Surf. I think it would be quite hard to run Victini in this manner and would require too much work for the reward in my opinion.
  19. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    Victini is a good Pokemon in Doubles, I don't think anybody is denying that. However, he's good for smashing shit with base 180 sun-boosted V-Creates to kill everyone. Victory star is nice, sure, for ensuring that your Heat Waves and Rock Slides hit, but 10% is hardly something you can abuse. Lol what are you gonna say, "my hypnosis is 66% accurate now fear me!"

    I think TR is an interesting topic though, that could use some pursuit. Jean Mi, if you're having trouble setting it up, maybe you should get a Follow Me/Rage Powder user? We just listed off all the good ones; they help with things like Taunt, Encore, and most importantly getting your shit smashed in by strong attacks.

    As for how I tend to deal with trick room: Protect. It's not hard to stall it out, it's still only five turns still, and five turns isn't everything, even in doubles. With some well-timed protect uses, and bulky mons that can take a hit, you can often even break even on dishing damage with the TR user while TR is still up, and absolutely wreck them when it's down.
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    "My Sleep Powder is now 82.5% accuracy." That's 2.5 less than Firs Blast now. Add Wide Lens to it now? Lilligant gets VERY scary with 90 base speed in the sun. Plus, you still have to worry about Vicinti and V-Create coming RIGHT after.

    Exactly this. Something like Blastoise (lol) is bulky as crap and gets it, as does something slow like Amoongus, who also gets to turn around and Spore the next turn at frightening speed.

    TR isn't hard to stall, but if you carry some slower, bulky mons (like Defensive Iron Ball Ninetales and Ferrothorn, for example) can take advantage of TR, even Thunderwaving the other team on the last 2 turns to really screw them up the next turn.
  21. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    Drizzle is kind of obscenely good right now. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8563360 Watch out for it.

    Victory Star is a great ability for making everything run just that extra bit smoothly, imo, but it's not really a selling point of Victini. More like a perk you enjoy for using it.

    V-create's absurd power is really hurt by the rain though, which knocks it down significantly. Might want to watch out for that.
  22. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    It's true that Drizzle is very useful in this metagame, allowing for the popular Drizzle + Swift Swim combo to work as well as other various abilities that abuse the rain... but I've been running Sandstorm (I strangely haven't encountered it much myself..) and it seems to be working great. Excadrill is an overall beast in the Sand is pretty much unstoppable. It has great coverage and is able to smash threats such as the Thundurus, Tornadus, Terrakion, Victini, Lati@s, Metagross, Heatran and plenty other threats. I usually only use Excadrill at the end of a battle, after my opponent has been weakened through my other pokemon and residual sandstorm damage and he can clean up.

    I seriously have not seen anyone use this guy except for me ( I know others may use it but I haven't seen it!) - at this point of time and was just wondering why? I really only see Rain or Weatherless being used and I find it very strange because Sand is a huge threat with its own powerful sweepers and abusers.
  23. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at.

    Sand is disgustingly mediocre in this metagame because it gets nothing. Unlike in OU, the passive damage afforded by the weather doesn't mean shit, and its only real abuser is Excadrill. Couple that with the fact that it's beaten by both Rain and Hail and it's no wonder that sand is the least popular weather.
  24. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    Eh to be honest Sand can beat rain, so long as it isn't a "full on" sand team with only Steel, Ground and Rock type pokemon.. I mean pokemon like Rotom-W and Shaymin-S can operate well on a Sand team to counter Rain, while pokemon like Metagross and Excadrill can destroy Abomasnow to win the weather war.

    On a different note.. on one of my alts when I was testing out a new team..I got completely wrecked by a gravity team featuring Moxie Krookodile. I was completely unprepared for it and it really did work against my team. The Krookodile got boosts for KOing both my pokemon and his own pokemon with STAB Earthquake and was getting a lot of boosts. I think if it was coupled with Tailwind as well.. the only stop to the Krookodile would have been priority moves like Mach Punch or Bullet Punch. Has anyone seen many gravity teams like this running around?
  25. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Tornadus is arguably the best Defiant user in the game. It outspeeds and OHKOes all the main Intimidate users with +1 Flying Gem Acrobatics. Scrafty, Hitmontop, Landorus-T, Gyarados, and Salamence are all OHKoed. They can only win with speed support, but then again, you have to be careful using Icy Wind on Tornadus; it'll give it a +2 boost. Having Pranskter also means the opponent has to be on the guard for either ability, being prepared for either a Prankster Tailwind / Taunt / Substitute, and keep their Intimidate users off the field. Defiant is definitely a viable choice over Pranskter. Both the two abilities play differently anyways; Prankster focuses more on team support, where as Defiant enables Tornadus to become arguably the best anti-Intimidate Pokemon in the metagame.

    Bisharp, on the other hand, fares poorly against Hitmontop and Scrafty, and whilst it can OHKO Landorus-T, Gyarados, and Salamence with +1 Dark Gem Sucker Punch, Sucker Punch can be played around with switching; at least if the opponent switches into Acrobatics, it gets hurt. Admittely, Bisharp can function as an anti-Icy Wind Pokemon better than Tornadus thanks to resisting Icy Wind and Sucker Punch (though you may become even more over-reliant on Sucker Punch to have a Speed advantage).

    I agree about Thundurus being a bad user of Defiant though. It's too hard to give up Pranskter for a potential boost to Wild Charge, when without the boost, Thunderbolt deals more damage. Wild Charge's negative side-effect seals the deal.
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