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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

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    Better in triples with a Darmanitan as well but is still great.
  2. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

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    I just started playing this metagame yesterday, and it's tons of fun. I've been using hail, and it has held up pretty well so far.
    Team:
    Show Hide
    Abomasnow @ Leftovers
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Giga Drain
    Standard stuff. Quiet makes me slower than other weather starters. Leech Seed can be useful for Cresselia and stuff but is mostly filler. Resists Earthquake and Discharge, which is very nice, and the main reason I decided to use hail.

    Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Stealth Rock
    - Protect
    Really useful. Rocks aren't used often, but they can sometimes turn the tide of a match. There's not much else to do with the moveslot anyway.

    Manectric @ Fire Gem
    Trait: Lightningrod
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Discharge
    - Overheat
    - Protect
    Fun when paired with Thundurus-T. I'm not so sure on his moveset and item, though. I might change volt switch for thunderbolt and give him a life orb, or even a magnet or something.

    Kyurem-Black @ Light Clay
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Outrage
    - Roost
    - Reflect
    Fun times. Even without any investment he has a respectable 276 Special Attack and a whopping 376 Attack. Reflect is pretty useful, but I think that Light Clay is probably overkill in this meta.

    Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Discharge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect
    - Thunderbolt
    Really strong. Thundurus-T + Landorus-T is probably the strongest pair on this team. Fun with Manectric. Thunderbolt kills stuff dead. The extra bulk + Sitrus Berry helps me stick around quite a bit longer.

    Togekiss @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Follow Me
    - Tailwind
    - Helping Hand
    - Thunder Wave
    A fantastic support pokemon. It's bulky as hell, and tailwind is fantastic for this team because a lot of my pokemon are at around mid speed. Helping hand + Earthquake/Blizzard is great, and it can be used with discharge too if I reall need to. Follow Me is great for allowing weakened pokemon to get one more blow off. Thunder wave is always good.

    If you guys have any suggestions/comments, feel free to post them.

    Here are some replays of the team in action:

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8533426
    Tons of Togekiss support, and some stealth rock action.

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8595705
    Thundurus-T hurts stuff.
  3. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    This is definitely false. The only reason Sand seems to be disgustingly mediocre is because there are so many bad Sand teams running around. The majority of the ones I face on the ladder are comprised of sand setter/sand abuser/ sand abuser/ electric type / ? / ? or sand setter/ sand setter/ sand abuser / sand abuser/ electric type / ?. In this team makeup, there's not one water or ice resist, yet for some reason it's so common. People run Sand teams with multiple abusers and then chuck on a Zapdos or something at the end and start playing, when there are obvious flaws with your only Rain check being weak to a type commonly found as a coverage move on Water types.
    The only major flaws with Sand teams are that too many people play them like Rain teams, thinking that you can overwhelm the opponent's checks by using multiple Sand abusers, when this is usually untrue. Most Sand checks are Levitators, so they'll take no damage from an EQ regardless of how many Pokemon you have to spam it, and then can proceed to deal heavy damage to or OHKO your abuser. A perfect example is Rotom-W, who is immune to Earthquake and can KO any Sand abuser with its STAB Hydro Pump. Another is Cresselia, who is also immune to EQ, is bulky enough not to care about their other moves, and can use Icy Wind to prey on their Ground typing while slowing them down. A good sand team is definitely capable of handling Rain teams and Hail teams. It's just that the common formula for Sand seen right now is flawed.
    The only point on your post I agree with is that Sand has fewer toys to play with, which is true, but Excadrill is really good at what it does. In addition to that, the fact that Sand isn't too popular means that when it's up, most opposing teams have no way to benefit from it, which gives you a huge advantage with your Sand abuser. I think a good Sand team should have a setter, an abuser, and dedicate the rest of their mons to being able to handle opposing threats, as opposed to trying to play Sand Hyper Offense, which isn't very good as a playstyle.
  4. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime Hear my tears all in my tunes
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    i'm sorry but you truly can't be serious with this post. +1 Tornadous destroys almost every in it's path with flying gem acro, it is easily one of the best pokemon in the meta if you play it correctly. Well Bisharps typing may not be the best, it still has the perks of a +1 sucker punch and with sub your opponent will have to try and hit you well getting owned by sucker punch at the same time. Defiant pokemon are just short of amazing if you can play them correctly
  5. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    For those interested in VGC as well:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478340

    ^VGC Mini-tour^

    ALSO:

    To keep this more Double-themed, here's a replay for ya!

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8617269

    I've traded out Ninetales for Sableye and Terrakion for Lando-T. I might also be trading out Cress for Musharna soon for HH/Gravity and Telepathy. The team flows quite a lot better than the old team already, allowing me to keep momentum the whole game, forcing switches, and making the opponent freak out.
  6. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I have played this metagame quite a bit recently. I gotta say that this meta is really fun aside from Skymin being a huge problem to everything (do you really need Rachi revamped?). Aside from that, rain is an extremely strong presence. I have went 11-0 with a combination of Drizzle Helping Hand Politoed with Icy wind + rain abusers. The team was Politoed/Electric gem thundurus-t/Specs Tornadus-T/Rage Powder Amoonguss/ SS kingdra and Scizor. Politoed can easily Helping Hand Kingdra with Muddy Water raping everything. Another pokemon i think is great is Amoonguss. It can really deal with annoying pokemon with Rage Powder allowing Tornadus-T or Thundurus-T to hit really fucking hard.
  7. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    The thing with Defiant pokemon is that they are heavily dependent on that boost though. With out it they can't get that extra damage that is the difference between an OHKO and just falling short. Not every team runs Intimidate or Stat Lowering abilities and pokemon like Bisharp is outclassed by a lot of other better options
  8. VarunR

    VarunR

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    This person mentioned in his RMT that Serene Grace also doubles the partner's chance of triggering additional effects. I tried searching, but found absolutely no references whatsoever to it - every analysis/description of Serene Grace deals with only Singles. It would be great if someone who has used Serene Grace in the VGC and in doubles confirms/debunks this, since it would have a major impact on the tier (Shaymin-S would be arguably broken).
  9. nyttyn

    nyttyn Blink Blink
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    Serene grace only affects the pokemon that has it. However, it is possible that it is bugged like other abilities that only affect one pokemon, such as scrappy (which enabled my blissey to hit a dusclops with a hyper beam. Why was I using hyper beam blissey? Was bored). Since nobody except for zarel can 100% confirm that, that person is simply mistaken.
  10. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    When I play, it sometimes says [DEBUG]Boosted water attack. For rain or whatever.
    It would say boosted secondary chance for Togekiss, but not for my partner. I don't know if that classifies as confirmation though. That person seemed pretty convinced that it did boost your partner.
  11. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Doubles Co-Lead

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    I've not seen a [DEBUG] Doubling Secondary Effect Chance when a partner uses a hax move, so i'll venture to say no

    I've definitely found rain to be a potent force in this meta. Helping Hand-boosted +1 (or water gem) Hydro pump from kingdra even OHKOes cresselia! Rain HO is one of the best teams to run, as stacking too many rain resists makes a team weak and eventually you will find yourself running through them like a knife through butter. My preferred strategy for my team is to save kingdra until late-game, where it can sweep with the water counters gone, but that's definitely not the only way to do it.
  12. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    I can confirm, Serene Grace doesn't boost the ally. I think it's more likely he typoed "Pink", his Blissey who has Serene Grace Skill Swap.
  13. Pikmin1211

    Pikmin1211

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    Did anyone else here know that Gengar has Perish Song?
  14. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    It also gets Trick Room if you're looking for a surprise setter.
  15. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Don't worry Pwnmon I will avenge my loss! I vow in this metagame never to make a rain-weak team again!

    In Pwnmon's game I was exploring the strategy of using Psych Up. For those who do not know what the effect of Psych Up is, it copies the stat boosts of which ever Pokemon you target. Through Psych Up, you can get insane boosts to certain Pokemon in the fraction of the time it would take boosting your own. Another interesting property of Psych Up is that it can hit through Protect, meaning your booster does not have to take two consecutive hits from the opponent!

    Psych Up abuse has two facets of abuse: The boosters and the Psych Up'ers

    The boosters:

    The Psych Uppers:
  16. MarshallLeRoy

    MarshallLeRoy

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    Speaking of other terrific doubles abuse tactics, I was pondering other strategies that might be effective and looked back through Pokemon Colosseum to see what was popular in 3rd gen. Then Earthquake dawned on me.

    Obviously earthquake has been nerfed by the number of levitate users that dominate OU and by extension smogon doubles, but Gravity makes Earthquake and a bunch of other spread moves much more viable.

    The site has an article for Gravity in singles and it's useful for identifying setters and abusers, but has anyone made a successful gravity team in doubles? Is Landorus-T, or a powerful Blizzard spammer, as good as I think they'd be? Blizzard seems like a great option especially since Gravity isn't dependent on hail to make it 100% accurate, at the expense of having to use a move to set it up.
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero
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    Lando-T/Musharna is the most popular version of that team.

    I ran a few new changes on my Sun team and now I'm back to ALMOST my original team. Here is 5 Replays with captions.

  18. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    I was completely unprepared for a Gravity team featuring Moxie Krookodile. It gets boosts from spamming Earthquake to KO friend and foe alike. With Tailwind support it is basically unstoppable once it gets going but it is definitely scared of powerful priority Mach Punches and Bullet Punches. Maybe Mew would make a good partner as it can learn both Tailwind and Gravity.. or even Cresselia who can simply slow down enemies with Icy Wind and can also learn Gravity itself

    To be honest I think you may as well just go hail if you want to spam Blizzard. It makes it a lot smoother in case your gravity user gets KOed and you don't need to waste that extra turn setting up.

    I'm also really interested in that Psych Up Strategy. I can definitely see those pokemon starting sweeps, Keldeo more so than Latios because it isn't hurt as much by priority moves like Sucker Punch which could otherwise ruin Latios. Keldeo also theoretically works a lot better because of the prevalence of rain giving Keldeo that extra push in its powerful water STABs
  19. Sphoofle

    Sphoofle

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    Hail is INCREDIBLY effective in this metagame, I think. I got a match with NidoJosh and Pocket a few times using a laddering alt using my Hail team (#3, Florante! Honestly, I've never gotten a rank nearly as high as that.), and although very close matches, hail still prevailed! I don't really consider myself a very good player though; I guess people just underestimate Hail.

    Okay, I'll admit, even if I don't want to, a lot of matches have Blizzard spamming. (Surprisingly, I've gotten around less than 5 freezes. I've got more "residual kills" than freezes, actually!) Still, Blizzard spamming only works due to smart switches with my Pokemon and the appropriate coverage moves from time to time. Not to mention Specs Obama hits like a truck.
  20. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    I remember that match! ( I think..) It's always awesome to verse high ranking players like yourself, Pwnemon, Arcticblast etc because it's just class to see the smart switching and everything.
    But seriously onto the actual topic... Blizzard spamming is incredibly annoying because.. it is very effective under hail conditions.

    But at the mention of Specs Obama.. I noticed that I don't really see Choiced items being utilised at all. I guess the switch will leave your incoming pokemon wide open if they were aware of the choiced item.. but I think if you hide it well enough maybe it's possible to execute? I've been using Life Orb instead of Choice just because of the fact that it deals a ton of damage and most pokemon don't last too long anyway. Does anybody have any successful choiced pokemon sets?
  21. Sphoofle

    Sphoofle

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    The thing is, Abomasnow shouldn't be staying in too long anyway. It's vulnerable to the common Scizor, Metagross, Terrakion, Hitmontop, and basically any other faster fighting type, and gets destroyed by basically any fire attack. Since it's a weather starter, you'd usually never want to sack it unless your opponent has no other weather. The only way to circumvent that weakness, though only to get one more hit in, would be to use a scarf on him, but that really makes his Blizzards and whatnot pretty lackluster.

    I feel that Choice Bands and Specs are less potent than in singles, but I feel that Choice Scarfs are infinitely more useful. I find that other people double target more than use spread moves. Why? Because if you beat the opposing 'mon first, you effectively negate its damage! Early game, only you know you have the Scarf. That can score crucial KOs that wouldn't have had happened if you would have gone second. Late game, you can pull off a sweep. Weakened Pokemon are actually a pretty common sight due to spread moves and switching into resists against double targeting. Because of this, a scarfer can come in later on and just pick off enemy 'mons.

    Of course, I don't have much experience in Scarfers--the only one I used is Landorus-I, which is incredibly useful because you really would want him to switch out. I usually let him come in to scout. I just U-Turn out, which is powerful enough to score nice KOs with my partner. His x4 weakness to Ice is very exploitable too for safe switch-ins with free damage from U-Turn and Intimidate! :)
  22. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Choice Scarf is amazing in this metagame, arguably better than in singles. In my opinion, you can afford to lock yourself into a move into doubles because usually you are spamming a powerful spread attack or your single attack is more likely to have a favorable match-up because there are two targets.
    Because people are afraid of choice items currently, you can outspeed nearly everyone with base 60+ scarfers. Behemoths such as Heat Wave Heatran, Water Spout Jellicent, and Rock Slide Tyranitar are suddenly KOing everything before they can attack.
    Choice Band/Specs are somewhat less useful because you get a lot of overkill that you didn't need at the expense of sticking to the same move. However, there is still merit to using them. Choice Specs Gastrodon usually finds a place on my team because Specs Earth Power @ +1 1HKOs everything that isn't immune. If I'm not doing that, I'm spamming Icy Wind/Surf so the boosted power gets around resists.

    Just wondering, why would anyone make a team without Hitmontop? There isn't a single battle where he isn't incredibly useful for almost every turn of the match. Heck, I feel like I would be 10x better off if I had 2 Hitmontops and that's saying something because I'd be compounding weaknesses.
    Fake Out+Wide Guard+Intimidate is a legendary combination. Oh and has anyone experimented with Fake Out+U-turn Mienshao? I've seen Ambipom used to little success(taking a 25% chunk out with Fake Out, then dying).
  23. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    You can add a second Hitmontop to your team using Scrafty, which can Intimidate + Fake Out. I use Landorus-I, though.
  24. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Thanks for the tip. I think I'll stay away from that fighting weakness, main STAB that commits suicide against Protect, and lack of Wide Guard+Mach Punch though.

    I might use Scrafty for something else though, it has similar, but better stats than Hitmontop, dual STAB, immunity to Psychic and Snarl+Intimidate combo! I could see him being incredibly useful with hazards on the field and paralysis support; he even gets Roar. Oh and a follow me user could avoid Air Slash+Close Combat.

    Edit: Wow, I didn't know Hitmontop got Helping Hand! I never realize when something gets Helping Hand. I'm not sure what it is compatible with though as Helping Hand, Fake Out and Mach Punch are all egg moves.

    Edit2: Why does Copycat just not work in doubles? Also, stall teams are nearly impossible to concoct. Bulky offense is about as stallish as you can get.
  25. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    Since the Tyrogue line is all male, it seniors can only breed with Ditto. There are no egg move illegalities because Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, and Hitmonlee can essentially learn the others' moves and pass it on to the final egg.
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