1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    Moxie is a very powerful ability indeed, definitively going to tweak it to see if I can find other ways to exploit it, Krookodile can also trap people with Pursuit...

    Anybody running Jynx? I've been wondering if it's useful considering it learns Fake Out and it spams Lovely Kiss/Blizzard, being weak against steel priority is a turn-off though, specially with such a frail body.
  2. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    VarunR and I play Sun vs Sun.

    His Cress paralyzed a ton of people on my team, and his Defiant Bisharp makes my Cress scared, since all she carries is Psychic/Shock and Icy Wind, but of which are bad news.

    I could have saved Terrakion by Double Switching back out, but I wanted Bisharp dead right then, so I took the chance and Ninetales had just enough bulk to give me issues.

    Good game though. Had a lot of fun with it.
  3. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,630
    [​IMG]

    I use Scarf Thundurus-T as one of my main sweepers. Discharge spam = life. Choice items can really throw teams off balance sometimes, especially when you're Scarfing something normally pretty slow.

    Scarf Abomasnow is actually really good. Latios and Thundurus-I are both outsped by Timid Scarf Abomasnow, and neither like taking a Blizzard. Assuming no Hidden Power, it hits 355 Speed (HP Fire makes it 353 iirc, which ties with Thundy). A ton of Pokemon are prone to Scarf Abomasnow's Blizzard (like every Chlorophyll user slower than Jumpluff), and with Helping Hand support it can cause massive damage before leaving the field. Focus Blast lets Abomasnow get in a solid hit on Heatran before going down, as well as hitting opposing Ninetales harder than any other move you have. Scarf Giga Drain is nice too, although it's not usually better than regular Giga Drain.

    Quoted for truth.

    Also quoted for truth.

    Mienshao is one of the few reasons not to use Hitmontop. I use Mienshao mostly because it's what I'm familiar with (I used Musharna / Mienshao leads in VGC '11 and my main team uses them). Mienshao is fast and strong as fuck, giving it a Fake Out to outspeed every user of Follow Me / Rage Powder and a quick U-Turn. It even gets Wide Guard for last-ditch team support. The problem? Protect, an almost ubiquitous move in Doubles, neuters its best STAB move (Hi Jump Kick - its next strongest move is Drain Punch...). It's also ridiculously frail, although Regenerator fixes this somewhat.

    While I'm still here, I'd like to share this replay:
    Arcticblast vs. omgguesswhat
    I played pretty badly this time, I'm not going to lie. The better moments of this match:
    - Pretty much double targeting Ludicolo to take it out
    - Wide Guard!
    - Landorus-T barely surviving Ice Beam to deal massive damage
    - Trick Room - without it, this would be a hilarious loss.
    Rain is a bitch to face, even with Abomasnow, since once you bring it in you know it's getting double targeted by any weather team, and as you can all see it's not too bulky. Scarf Blizzard was still quite useful though :) Should have played better with Breloom though...
    This was one tough battle. gg omgguesswhat.
  4. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,887
    I've already talked about Suicune, but I'd like to say that CM Suicune is seriously pretty good. A lot of times I just lead with it and a Fake Out user to get the first CM boost, and then can just accumulate more boosts as the match keeps going to end up sweeping. If it doesn't sweep, it can still support the team through using Icy Wind to control speed. Audiosurfer vs seabss.(This is a log of Suicune being amazing all match) Here's the set I've been using:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Suicune @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Icy Wind
    - Rest

    Basically, you just boost until you're at low health, at which case you can use Rest and start sweeping. Outside of being a bulky sweeper, it makes a good supporter through Scald's 30% burn chance, which can neuter a Physical sweeper as well as Icy Wind, which helps regulate speed and makes up for a slower partner. Also, Pressure can be useful at times to PP stall an opponent (the link to the other Suicune post I made has a replay showing just that happening to a mon Suicune would otherwise have no chance of beating). So yeah. If you're in need of a good bulky water on your team (and who isn't?) give Suicune a try.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Awesome discussion going, guys!

    Sand and Hail: Sand is definitely nothing to scoff at - Excadrill is just THAT good, and Audiosurfer is right in saying that most teams aren't well prepared facing against a well-built Sand team.

    That said, it's quite easy to see why Hail is more dominant than Sand in Doubles - BlizzSpam. For one it's a powerful spread move: even after the power reduction, it's still hitting each enemy with a force of a STAB 90 bp move. In addition, it's not as easily avoidable as EQ, while not inflicting harm to your partner, unlike Surf. Abomasnow also has the upper hand against Politoed, and can switch into its Water STAB moves with ease to remove Rain; not something that Hippowdon or TTar can boast.

    Defiant: Lol that match between Blank Zero and VarunR got interesting when VarunR's Bisharp woke up and received a +2 Atk boost from Blank Zero's Icy Wind from Cress. I'd suggest Protect > Brick Break so you're not forced to switch out after you earn those Atk boosts ;/

    I never considered Tornadus as a Defiant user, but its certainly darn viable! It's just hard to let go of Prankster's utility ;<. But yea, tl;dr - Defiant is an underrated ability in Doubles!

    Psych Up: haha, that's clever, Doughboy ;d I particularly like Latios as a Psych Up user, since it can remove special defense drops from Draco Meteor with this move!

    CM + ChestoRest Suicune: Audiosurfer that's a really cool set. It actually reminds me of the ADV days, when people would chall Doubles in NB, and I would end up sweeping their doubles team with my CM Suicune and Curselax of my Singles team b/c they just wont die xD

    Have you considered Manaphy, though? I think Manaphy would be a better player for this strategy since it can even rely on HydraRest, thus allowing it to heal itself with impunity. Couple Manaphy with Doughboy's Psych Up Latios and I think we got ourselves a mean combo >:D
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    Me vs. a Haxy TR team

    Of note is the team's use of Psych Up after Snorlax gets off a Belly Drum. Suddenly, a Normal Gem Metagross at +6 Exploding. Good thing Ferro was being a Boss this match, or I'd have been in trouble.
  7. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,887
    Manaphy would definitely be an interesting substitute. I'll have to give that some though. It's definitely be better on a Rain team, but in other weathers it's more of a preference thing. I like Suicune more on other weathers, since Pressure can actually be used in them as well as for Icy Wind and its superior defensive stats, but Manaphy's offensive stats can be useful, as well as access to Blizzard in Hail.
  8. Sphoofle

    Sphoofle

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8779297
    Me (Florante) vs. Level 51 (One or Two)

    I'll just note that both of us probably weren't doing our best in the match. Level 51 was probably using an alt to test the team, while I made quite a few mistakes that almost cost me the match. But what I'd like to highlight here is the potency of TR (again!), the ineffectiveness of BlizzSpam at times, switching, and the viability of berries.

    The TR part will be quick since it has been covered many times. I'd just like to say that, to the unprepared, TR will completely demolish you, especially if you leave it unchecked. IIRC, in my four losses, 3 were Trick Room teams. That's why I tried to kill Level's Reuniclus as fast as I could: so that TR could only be set up once. Unfortunately, I didn't know any better and started BlizzSpamming, doing pretty much pitiful damage with my Manaphy. If it went on at that rate, I'd be down one Pokemon. It took a Specs STAB Blizzard to put a real dent and sealed the deal for his Reuniclus.

    While that "Kill-That-Reuniclus" was going on, I was frantically switching Manaphy's partner. I'd say that people really underestimate switching; I do that way too often during my matches. Because of switching, (technically) all my Pokemon survived the TR onslaught. The bad part about switching in Doubles, however, is that it requires even more prediction than in Singles. Two Pokemon can attack, so it's twice as risky. (Okay, not really, but I'm not good at statistics.) But if pulled off really well, like how I consider my switching, could change the match entirely.

    Finally, at that last part, I didn't see an Air Balloon on Heatran. I should've counted that as suspicious, but I EQ'd away anyway. It turns out, he was holding a berry, and that never crossed my mind. If that Lava Plume got a burn or had a higher damage roll, I would've lost the game. But instead, I got to live with 3% and won the game, but just barely.

    The TR part and the ineffectiveness of BlizzSpam doesn't come as a surprise, maybe even berries since they're incredibly effective in the VGC field along with gems (which are common in Smogon Doubles as well), but what I'd want to know is what you guys think about switching. Is it really useful as I described it? Has anyone had any consistent success with saving key members/your team in general by constant switching? And in light of this, the SR discussion comes up: is SR/T-Spikes/Spikes *just* alright in this metagame?

    EDIT: also i'mma steal your chestorest Manaphy. B-)

    EDIT 2: I completely forgot about Protect, actually... Okay, I'm pretty stupid. Though, I haven't used Protect in my movesets because I never really found the space; so yeah, protect > switching in most cases, that's pretty much given. But a discussion is still a discussion, I guess. Like when switching would be needed and when to sacrifice a moveslot for Protect.
  9. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,887
    I don't think constant switching is a good idea in any metagame really, since you're usually just giving momentum away to your opponent. That's not to say switching is bad in Doubles, (far from it, I find myself switching different mons in and out a lot in order to better take a hit) however, in the log you provided, many times you would've been much better served simply using Protect to block the damage. It would've wasted TR turns without forcing you to take damage as well as letting all of your mons keep more HP by not being forced to constantly take hits for each other. Also, it means that if you had a mon out with a bad matchup with an opponent's mon, you could eliminate the opposing mon with your partner while shielding the first mon from damage for the whole turn (examples of where it could've been used in your replay was when Abomasnow was killed off by Mach Punch. If you had Protected, then Abomasnow wouldn't have died to that and Manaphy would've killed both Pokemon off with a Blizzard). Once that threat is eliminated, you wouldn't have a need to switch out the initial mon anymore, which means something wouldn't have to risk taking unnecessary damage. Also, it means that your mon's partner can avoid being hit by spread moves that damage all Pokemon on the field (Surf, Earthquake, Lava Plume, etc.) so you can use these without fear of hurting your partner.
    Tl;dr switching's great, constant switching isn't (especially with spread moves everywhere, meaning both partners might end up taking damage and weakening your team for a fast sweeper to rampage through later.)
  10. Skore

    Skore

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    859
    That Suicune set got me thinking.

    I've been kind of operating under the assumption that every mon in Doubles uses Protect/Detect and in some cases develops into sever 4MS syndrome when looking at coverage moves.

    Are there any other mons that can get away with not having it that people have found?
  11. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,552
    Choice users don't need Protect lol

    It depends how your team is set up. Heavy offense such as rain spam generally doesn't need Protect on most members and bulkier teams don't really need to waste the moveslot or turn on Protect.
    I'm guessing you're running a balanced team. I would slip in a choice user and something with roost/recover so that you get used to not having Protect on everything. I like SpecsGastro and support Togekiss without Protect =]
  12. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    480
    Cresselia and bulky Thundurus-i also very rarely run Protect because they don't particularly need it and are tight for moveslots already.

    Speaking of fat Thundurus-i, I haven't seen anyone else using it at all, which is surprising. Definitely the MVP of my team so far.
  13. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,887
    Audiosurfer vs. Blankzero.
    This was the first Dubloons challenge match I played, and I think it showcased the effectiveness of the move Tailwind pretty well. DTC gave a rate on my RMT suggesting I use Tailwind on my Latias over HP Fire, and it was able to give me a huge advantage at the start of the game, which was huge for my team. Another thing I'd like to talk about is the increase in Belly Drum mons. Idk if I've been just unlucky but I seem to run into Belly Drum Pokemon a lot, and one I let one boost, if I can't kill it immediately I end up losing 1-2 pokemon outright, which is pretty bad, and has made my ladder experience alot harder. This made me wonder who else was having trouble with them or has seen them around. So yeah, what are your thoughts on the moves and potential strategies around it? (I've ran into BD Poliwrath in rain a few times today and it's been pretty annoying.)
  14. Skore

    Skore

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    859
    Will Antar be compiling usage stats for us? Can't wait to see them.
  15. Antar

    Antar
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Official Data Miner

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,218
    Yes. This month you'll get usage, moveset and metagame stats for doubles & vgc2013. Leads will have to wait, though, and I doubt I'll ever be able to get you guys data on checks and counters.
  16. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime the echoes of silence
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,315
    Hail is easily one of the best weathers in doubles, not only do you get a perfect accuracy blizzard but many pokemon can abuse that fact, and with the common typings in the doubles meta yyou find yourself hitting many pokemon for super effective damage with a powerful spread move. On one of my teams I have abomasnow and Kyurem-b to abuse the hail, though cub doesn't run any special attack at all it can still use blizzard effectively due to the base 125 special attack. Hail also helps wear down walls like cresselia well it negates lefties recovery and nerfs it's one recovery move in moonlight. Hail has always been generally bad in the singles meta, thanks to stealth rocks and poor typing but with the right team support in doubles, It's easily the best weather to play with in my opinion
  17. Antar

    Antar
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Official Data Miner

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,218
    Uh... hate to break it to you guys, but sand is about TWICE as common as hail, and rain and sun are about 50% more common than sand.

    More on that tomorrow...
  18. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    I'll second this one. Hail gives me such a headache, even though I run a Sun team 99% of the time.
  19. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Well, what do you know :X Are those results from the new weighted stats???

    Anyways I think I haven't seen any replays of Deoxys-A kicking butt, and I think the overall consensus among us is that it's mediocre. Although it's hard to get used to its extreme frailty, I think I have gotten the hang of playing with Deo-A after some playtesting. Here's a replay of some Deo-A action. It starts the game hard with 2 consecutive KOs. I used advice of DTC (iirc) and paired Deo-A with a Fake Out user to render one enemy immobile for a turn while Deo-A faints the other. I had White Herb before to negate status falls from Superpower / Psycho Boost, but Deo-A greatly appreciates the LO boost, allowing it to net more kills and thus avoid any lethal retaliation. I guess I got lucky when my Weavile survived Bisharp's Sucker Punch to finish off Cresselia. I don't think it mattered, though, since Cress would either be forced to Rest while Volcarona sets up QDs or Psyshock KO Volcarona, only to be easily revenged by Deoxys-A or Latios (or both if necessary).
  20. Antar

    Antar
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Official Data Miner

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,218
    Yes, but the ratio's basically the same even if you look at unweighted.

    Oh, and by the way: this probably comes as no shock to you guys, but Smogon Doubles has proven to be a VERY popular metagame.

    How popular?

    Three times as popular as Challenge Cup. About 33% more popular than Little Cup... and THIRTY TIMES as popular as "Wifi OU Doubles" on PO.

    At that level of usage, I fully expect to be able to give you guys a Smogon Doubles OU vs. UU list come March (like I do now for LC UU).
  21. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    You fucking rock Antar.
  22. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,630
    I WILL be the first one to analyze the usage stats... after dinner. Personal surprises: Gastrodon at #4 and a bunch of really low things.

    EDIT: AWESOME I GOT IT WOOHOO

    Code:
     Total battles: 16494
     Avg. weight/team: 0.685
     + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       | 
     + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | 1    | Politoed           | 16.26505% | 4891   | 14.827% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Politoed at #1?  This almost comes as a surprise.  Then again, Drizzle is incredible in this metagame, so...
     | 2    | Cresselia          | 14.00305% | 3724   | 11.289% | 0      |  0.000% |
    The greatest support Pokemon in the entire tier, ladies and gentlemen.  If it weren't for Rain's dominance it would easily be #1, but Rain nerfs its only recovery. 
     | 3    | Ninetales          | 13.48388% | 3955   | 11.989% | 0      |  0.000% |
    MORE WEATHER FUNTIMES!!!  Drought is just as good if not better than Drizzle, so this is a given.
     | 4    | Gastrodon          | 12.08460% | 3489   | 10.577% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    ...huh?  I did NOT see this coming.  It must be here to hard counter Rain or something.  Resistance/immunity to certain other spread moves is nice too.  Its Speed is a letdown (outside of Trick Room) but its bulk is pretty good.  Still goes down if you smack it hard enough though.
     | 5    | Hitmontop          | 11.76188% | 3132   |  9.494% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    This should be higher.  It and Cresselia are the two best support Pokemon in the tier.
     | 6    | Scizor             | 11.47996% | 3517   | 10.661% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    A nice counter to Trick Room and Cresselia, in addition to having strong priority.  It could be a bit lower, but hey, not bad.
     | 7    | Terrakion          | 11.32684% | 3323   | 10.073% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Terrakion isn't bad.  A little too much Terracott though.
     | 8    | Latios             | 10.66130% | 3181   |  9.643% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Kind of surprised, to be honest - haven't seen too many of these.
     | 9    | Tyranitar          | 10.62519% | 3195   |  9.685% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Weather #3.  It's much better than Hippowdon, partly due to the increased viability of resist berries and partly due to its superior movepool (CRUNCH).
     | 10   | Garchomp           |  9.86124% | 3126   |  9.476% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    See Latios.
     | 11   | Metagross          |  9.45976% | 2953   |  8.952% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    The runt of OU just barely misses the top 10 in doubles.  And for good reason, too - Metagross is pretty damn tanky, and with a nice offensive movepool there's almost nothing it can't do.
     | 12   | Volcarona          |  9.22830% | 2814   |  8.530% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    One of those Pokemon that is going to wreck me pretty much no matter what I do (unless I Fake Out + Rock Slide maybe?)  Volc is amazing.
     | 13   | Heatran            |  9.01731% | 2743   |  8.315% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Heat Wave and Flash Fire.  THat's pretty much it.
     | 14   | Ferrothorn         |  8.54652% | 2838   |  8.603% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Another Pokemon that's ridiculously bulky with a nice movepool.  Leech Seed is good too - if you can Leech Seed both foes, you get a ton of health back every turn.
     | 15   | Landorus-Therian   |  8.37755% | 2283   |  6.921% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Oh look, first member of my own team.  Landorus-T is just amazing.  Intimidate, strongest Earthquake in the tier, immune to both Earthquake and Discharge... Lando-T's problem is the weakness to Water though, which is bad because Rain is so common...  Still, a great 'mon that everyone should consider.
     | 16   | Kingdra            |  7.88147% | 2393   |  7.254% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Premier user of Swift Swim.  Whether it teams up with Politoed to get +1 from Absorb Bulb or it just smashes with Life Orb, there are very few ways around Kingdra that don't involve changing the weather.
     | 17   | Dragonite          |  7.65403% | 2802   |  8.494% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Why is this so high?  Blizzard and Rock Slide are pretty common in Doubles, and Dragonite really doesn't offer anything that couldn't be filled by something like Cresselia or Hitmontop.  It's also outclassed offensively by Kingdra and Kyurem-B.
     | 18   | Excadrill          |  7.60548% | 2005   |  6.078% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Why you use Sand.  Puts the hurt on any team without multiple Ground resists / immunities.  (Breloom works for this since it also resists Rock Slide)
     | 19   | Whimsicott         |  7.60303% | 2382   |  7.221% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Fuck Terracott.  Whimsicott isn't too bad as a team support 'mon though.
     | 20   | Rotom-Wash         |  7.56213% | 2147   |  6.508% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Rotom-W is pretty bulky, works in all weathers but Sun, and has Will-O-Wisp and Levitate.  Not bad.
     | 21   | Togekiss           |  7.55406% | 2363   |  7.163% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Follow Me is probably why this is so common.  That's a great move though; don't hate on Kiss.  Serene Grace is good too.
     | 22   | Latias             |  7.35500% | 2210   |  6.699% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Haven't seen this do much.
     | 23   | Jolteon            |  7.32224% | 2283   |  6.921% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 24   | Thundurus          |  6.67942% | 1773   |  5.375% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 25   | Thundurus-Therian  |  6.40027% | 1953   |  5.920% | 0      |  0.000% |
    Interesting how these three are so close together.  Jolteon is sort of a compromise between the Thundurus formes - fast and immune to Electric.  You're usually better off using Thundurus for team support or Thundy-T for offense.
     | 27   | Infernape          |  6.03183% | 1942   |  5.887% | 0      |  0.000% |
    *sigh* FAKE OUT DOESN'T MAKE THIS ANY BETTER
     | 28   | Victini            |  5.95113% | 1859   |  5.635% | 0      |  0.000% |
    Of course it's one place below Infernape, of all things.  Victini is one hard-hitting motherfucker.
     | 30   | Shaymin-Sky        |  5.85910% | 1550   |  4.699% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Better at haxing things than the other Serene Grace 'mons, and damn fast to boot.  One of the better Pokemon in the tier - why isn't it used more?
     | 31   | Abomasnow          |  5.82859% | 1656   |  5.020% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Okay, forget what I said about Shaymin-S - why isn't THIS used more?!  Abomasnow is the best weather counter in the tier, getting a multi-target 90 BP STAB move (factoring in the drop from the double target).  It resists Water, Electric and Ground.  Seriously, are people too afraid to use a Pokemon weak to Rock because of the perceived threat of Terracott, which is mediocre anyway?
     | 32   | Toxicroak          |  5.81491% | 1891   |  5.732% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 33   | Salamence          |  5.78584% | 1945   |  5.896% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 34   | Jellicent          |  5.74414% | 1816   |  5.505% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Not bad offensive Pokemon.
     | 36   | Kyurem-Black       |  5.49238% | 1593   |  4.829% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    This thing is a fucking NUKE.  There is little reason not to use it - if any.
     | 37   | Ludicolo           |  5.38240% | 1502   |  4.553% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Kingdra without weedkiller.  Fast Leech Seed is nothing to ignore either.
     | 38   | Breloom            |  5.35356% | 1862   |  5.644% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    I've been using Breloom on my team with Technician and a moveset of Spore / Mach Punch / Helping Hand.  With the number of Fighting-weak 'mons and Politoed/Gastrodon so high, this thing is guaranteed a kill every round.  Assuming you run enough Speed, Spore puts Cresselia out of commission for most of the match, and Helping Hand is just great on everything.
     | 39   | Hydreigon          |  5.31833% | 1820   |  5.517% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 40   | Chandelure         |  5.25963% | 1684   |  5.105% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 43   | Blaziken           |  4.33617% | 1455   |  4.411% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 44   | Cloyster           |  4.29139% | 1586   |  4.808% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    More good offensive 'mons that I don't have a ton of experience with.  Chandy is notable for Trick Room, and Blaziken for the opposite.
     | 45   | Bronzong           |  4.28200% | 1302   |  3.947% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 46   | Mew                |  4.24406% | 1335   |  4.047% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Some support 'mons.
     | 51   | Lilligant          |  3.99998% | 1090   |  3.304% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    One of Sun's better support / offensive Pokemon - Chlorophyll makes it tough to beat, and Healing Wish gives it a way to almost revive a weak teammate.
     | 53   | Genesect           |  3.95819% | 1116   |  3.383% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Banned from OU, #53 in Doubles.  Genesect's pretty good.
     | 54   | Scrafty            |  3.87968% | 1090   |  3.304% | 0      |  0.000% |  
    A worse version of Hitmontop most of the time, except it can beat Cresselia semi-reliably.
     | 56   | Zapdos             |  3.71500% | 1235   |  3.744% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 57   | Venusaur           |  3.68221% | 1495   |  4.532% | 0      |  0.000% |  
     | 59   | Keldeo             |  3.56161% | 1123   |  3.404% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Haven't seen much from something with such power.
     | 60   | Landorus           |  3.56029% | 1015   |  3.077% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Not nearly as good as Lando-T, but it has potential.
     | 62   | Amoonguss          |  3.45643% | 1002   |  3.037% | 0      |  0.000% |
    The normal tier cutoff is here.  Notable Pokemon will be listed below.
     | 64   | Tornadus           |  3.08527% | 905    |  2.743% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    This should be higher.
     | 66   | Manectric          |  2.71064% | 803    |  2.434% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 67   | Sableye            |  2.67910% | 897    |  2.719% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 68   | Dusclops           |  2.67572% | 809    |  2.452% | 0      |  0.000% |  
     | 71   | Slaking            |  2.35365% | 854    |  2.589% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Does the get-rid-of-Truant stuff even work>
     | 72   | Kyurem             |  2.25673% | 653    |  1.980% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 75   | Umbreon            |  2.14543% | 747    |  2.264% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 76   | Sneasel            |  2.12562% | 557    |  1.688% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 77   | Musharna           |  2.08267% | 597    |  1.810% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Arguably a better version of Cresselia for offense teams, and it's below... Umbreon and... Sneasel? How in the world?
     | 85   | Darkrai            |  1.88133% | 576    |  1.746% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    INCREDIBLY underused.  Darkrai is a monster.
     | 86   | Crobat             |  1.84811% | 717    |  2.174% | 0      |  0.000% | 
     | 87   | Deoxys-Attack      |  1.81841% | 565    |  1.713% | 0      |  0.000%  
    Strong, but can probably be KO'd by a strong enough Fake Out.
     | 89   | Hippowdon          |  1.71292% | 601    |  1.822% | 0      |  0.000%   
    Tyranitar is much better.
     | 100  | Mienshao           |  1.48367% | 482    |  1.461% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    Not better than Hitmontop, but Regenerator, base 125 Attack, Taunt and U-Turn are enough to make it viable.  I'm not surprised it's this low though.
     | 146  | Suicune            |  0.84884% | 263    |  0.797% | 0      |  0.000% | 
    I expect to see this number rise substantially next month; people only discovered Suicune recently.
    So Rain and Sun are more dominant than Cress and Hitmontop are, and a lot of the best Pokemon are eschewed in favor of more familiar OU Pokemon. I'm not completely surprised, seeing as it's a new metagame, but this will probably change as new people get more into it.
  23. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,552
    Latios in the top 10....? Wut?
    Togekiss is a little low imo
    Lol Infernape is 2 slots higher than Skymin and 3 slots higher than Hail... And WAY higher than Blaziken who DIRECTLY outclasses him -_- are you kidding me?
    Cube is too low
    How did Amoongus only just barely make the cut? Great supporter.
    IdontthinkpeoplerealizethatDarkraiandDeoAarelegal

    Gastrodon and Politoed got the usage they deserved imo. I used to think rain wasn't going to dominate as much as in OU, but it is definitely the opposite of what I predicted.
  24. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Happy to see Smogon Doubles is off to a solid start!

    Arcticblast, I enjoyed your feedback on the usage stats, so I'll comment on some of them. Your Breloom set particularly piqued my interest. You have any cool replays of it in action? On a slow Pokemon like Breloom, Helping Hand is a great way to support a faster partner to clinch a kill or two ;d

    Cloyster is actually pretty darn decent in Doubles. It has access to both Blizzard and Surf, and after a Shell Smash these spread moves hurts a TON.
    Hydreigon probably sees some use over Latios for its ability to get past Cresselia without Draco Meteor.

    I'm quite surprised to see Zapdos so low in usage, since iirc it was one of the staples in VGC 2012 :o

    I wouldn't say Musharna is better for offensive teams, but it certainly has a niche in Telepathy and Imprison.

    I have to agree with youngjake93 that people probably do not realize that mons like Genesect and Deoxys-A are eligible in Smogon Doubles ;x I've seen a few people ragequit on the first few turns on me after they saw Deo-A on my team; certainly not helpful for Deo-A's usage >_<.
  25. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    260
    Genesect is remarkably underwhelming in doubles. The most overwhelming pokemon for me believe it or not has been metagross. The presence of steels in this metagame is so limited and premium metagross checks like Gyarados and Skarmory are so rare this pokemon quite literally has a field day spamming its STAB or EQ.

    Shaymin-S has been rather underwhelming as well, its frailty does it no favours and its speed is often useless against the +2 weather sweepers which can each ohko/2hko her without exception (the premium threat ones at least.

    I think Gastrodon is used for more than just checking rain, it happens to resist some common spread moves and makes a great partner to so many pokemon. It's also rather funny watching a waterfall be redirected as she switches in.

    I've rather liked Aerodactyl and Archeops so far as unnerve and acrobatics respectively have done a lot for me in this meta, although resist berries and custap berries have become much rarer now and so I stopped using Aerodactyl, Archeops is still great for putting teams under pressure as there are few acrobatics resisting pokemon that aren't frail in this metagame!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)