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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Skore

    Skore

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  2. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Why?
  3. tehy

    tehy

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    I think the main draw to Cofag is that, once TR is set, it can NP boost like it does in UU. Dusclops can basically be ignored (Especially by special attackers/fire types), allowing you to pound on the other member, which neutralises TR to an extent. Of course, Dusclops has greater bulk, so there's that. (And Taunt, which could be cool under TR.)

    And while 58/145/105 is better than 40/130/130, Dusclops is by no means forced to run eviolite-it defaults to eviolite because it's the best item available. If cofagrigus had access to eviolite, are you REALLY telling me you wouldn't use it? (And what other item are you using, anyhow? Ghost Gem, maybe Mental Herb? Lum is nice but eh;pain split seems easier to use under TR in doubles so i'd take that>chestorest) It's more like Dusclops gets to use Eviolite than anything really

    Also, there was a pretty cool replay posted by Blankzero (I believe) a while back that showed off Psych Up Cofagrigus+CM Cresselia pretty well. The user ended up losing, but that could easily be attributed to him also using a Flame Burst Magmortar and other such. So that's a cool niche for Cofagrigus-set TR, Psych Up, and then crush foes with bulk and TR.

    Edit:And then i watched the second replay.
  4. Zarel

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    The main draw of 100 base HP is that you wouldn't get OHKOed by Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, being phazed out when entry hazards are in play (you just turn back into Mew), Sandstorm, Hail, etc.
  5. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Dusclops is forced to run eviolite, as without Eviolite there's no reason to run it over mothers Ghost type, whereas Cofagrigus's niche exists regardless of its item choice, so while Dusclops can use other items from a technical standpoint, from a competitive view it really is forced to go with Evolite. Although Cofagrigus would enjoy the defensive boosts, it's still perfectly capable of maintaining a niche without them. Also, the idea that a decreased offensive presence is better since it means you won't be targeted is definitely false, as a player will target the highest threat at the time, which does not always correlate to one with the most damage output. A mon like Amoonguss can remain a dangerous threat despite having a low attack output, and can still support the team well. The difference is that Dusclops is rarely a threat on the same level since all it can really do is set up TR and maybe WOW some stuff (although it has access to Taunt it's too slow to make really good use of it, and you generally have better things to do with limited TR turns.)
    So yeah, saying that it's low damage output is a hood thing somehow isn't true, since it doesn't have te support movepool to remain a huge threat, so Cofagrigus's increased offensive potential gives it more versatility and makes it less dead weight on a team, which makes it a better pick on average than Dusclops.
  6. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Didn't say it was a good thing.. just said it doesn't matter that much. Anyway...
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9167107

    Support Genesect in action! Thunder Wave/Light Screen/Explosion/Ice Beam @ Normal Gem

    I manage to show off all 4 moves in the first 4 turns to force a ragequit lol

    Also, not enough people use Helping Hand Toed, Wide Guard, or sDef Togekiss. They can all cause heaps of trouble.
    Oh and I would like to mention that I use Snarl Darkrai just because it is cool.
  7. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    I'm not saying it isn't doing anything, I'm just saying that a wasted pokemon slot -the Shedinja- its barely worth the effort considering you're still pretty easy to kill afterwards. At least Soak Shedinja combos aim to do something with the Shedinja slot, this one pretty much leaves it to die.
  8. Antar

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  9. MarshallLeRoy

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    That was hilarious to watch. Nice to see you at least pushed through it. A shuckle and a transformed Mew almost trolled you into oblivion.

    The clear downside is that Shuckle's only offensive presence is through Toxic in that strategy.
  10. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    That guy could have won, he spammed rest even when in a mire than comfortable hp range... But if anything ban shuckle.. Guard split/transform gives you a very bulky mon in one turn and you can pass boosts easily with psych up or simply toxistall
    Speaking of which... Are there going to be any bans/unbans? I can't think of any particular candidates right now
  11. Antar

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    Yeah, once I realized his strategy, the correct move would've been to keep switching and PP stall him (though it'd have taken a shitton of turns). With both Leech Seeds up, my pokes would've gained more health than they were losing.

    My reasoning for banning Acupressure and not Shuckle is that it's the EVASION boosts that made this battle so awful. I really think we should just have a blanket evasion ban: no Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Brightpowder (which this guy was also using), Lax Incense either.
  12. Phiddlesticks

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    dawg dont forget tangled feet

    EDIT: after watching that replay, im surprised the shuckle player never used acupressure on its allies (yes, you can do that). it seems like it would be a way stronger strategy if you used acupressure on an allied chansey/blissey, especially combined with guard split shenanigans
  13. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    Fortunately all of that has a hard counter: Taunt.
  14. Phiddlesticks

    Phiddlesticks

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    if every team is forced to run taunt to stop shuckle, is that considered overcentralization? anyways, taunt isnt necessarily a hard counter if shuckle is paired with a follow me/rage powder user and gets a +2 evasion boost on its first acupressure
  15. Antar

    Antar Self-anointed Czar of LC UU
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    Agreed. And Taunt doesn't stop the evasion boost from Sand Veil / Snow Cloak.
  16. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    He actually used the mew shuckle to accupressure the regular shuckle. I thought I was seeing things because I didn't know you could do that lol
    Anyway, I don't think evasion is broken or needs to be banned. Oh and taunt is definitely underused. Brightpowder is no more annoying than rock slide flinch or parahax.
    After checking, Zekrom seems like the only plausible unban and Hitmontop seems like the only possible ban. There is literally zero reason to not run hitmontop in ANY team
  17. Antar

    Antar Self-anointed Czar of LC UU
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    That's like saying Scizor should be banned in OU or Mienfoo in LC because it's hard to find a team that it DOESN'T fit onto.

    None of those three Pokemon are overpowered or particularly difficult to counter/kill.
  18. BlankZero

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    You know who's better than Top in most cases?

    Scrafty.
  19. Rowan

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    That doesn't mean you should ban it. It's not broken in any way and it's not hard to deal with. If you play LC then you can make a similar argument about Mienfoo which is miles from being broken, just insanely good.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by quite a while...

    Care to explain why you think Scrafty is better, BlankZero?
  20. youngjake93

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    Top creates so many free turns for its partners. Most of its threat is indirect. Intimidate forces switches=free turns, fakeout a hitmontop check=free turn, wide guard on spread spam=free turns, fight gem close combat=free KO and free turn, mach punch/sucker punch something in KO range=free KOs and turns. All those free turns and KOs allows your team to do all kinds of things. Not to mention it can run Helping Hand or Technician to mix it up.
    I'm not saying it is banworthy imo, but that's because I'm generally against bans. Just saying it is more 'broken' than things like genesect and deo-s in OU.. It just doesn't seem like it because it isn't a powerhouse and it takes some prediction+skill to get those free turns
  21. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    my solution to shuckle teams?

    they can't stand up to my muddy water/surf.

    honestly if you think accupressure is broken i will need a lot more convincing evidence because if you're giving your opponent enough free turns to use it you are probably shit.
  22. peng

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    If you guys want anyone to take this format seriously we need to quit with the ridiculous "Hitmontop (etc) is broken" allegations. I don't know about the rest of you but I'd like to see this format become an official Smogon metagame, but conversations like this just give off the impression that this metagame is a joke that isn't worth people's time. I'm saying this as someone who is currently in an IRC channel, watching this metagame being ridiculed by influential VGC players as a result of posts like this. If we can't convince VGC players that SmogDubs is worth playing then we certainly aren't convincing any singles players.

    IMO the only Pokemon that should even been considered for a ban at the moment are the various Ubers we brought down. Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Kyurem-B all just about fine here, but I'm questioning why we have Deoxys-A unbanned. Luckily I don't think anybody has actually built a half decent team with this thing yet. Theoretically this guy only needs Follow Me / Rage Powder (or even, at a push, quick guard) support to keep it safe from priority and thunder wave and its probably already looking at a couple of guaranteed KOs in most battles. The only thing that keeps it remotely in check is the fact that it can't switch-in, but this really doesn't make up for its ridiculous offensive presence. I'm assuming Deoxys-N is down here too, in which case its in practically the same boat.

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-A @ Life Orb / Focus Sash / [gem]
    - Psycho Boost
    - Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
    - Superpower / Low Kick
    - Protect / Substitute

    [​IMG]
    Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry / [resist berry]
    - Follow Me
    - Tailwind
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast / Flamethrower

    I haven't actually playtested this but I honestly can't imagine how something like this wouldn't be effective. Spread moves are jerks but the common Rock Slide users are all slower than Deoxys-A except scarf Terrakion (ScarfTar is outsped, Superpower / Low Kick KOs through chople so only threatened by Focus Sash sets). Togekiss can run a ton of other options in the last slot, but I guess Fire coverage would be nice to dent the likes of Metagross, who aren't hit super effectively by any of the options on the set. Other Follow Me / Rage Powder users obviously work here too - Amoonguss especially since it combats Kingdra pretty decently and has access to Spore to put an end to the few checks Deoxys-A has.

    I'm not saying Deoxys-A is undoubtably broken; I don't have the experience with it or against it to make that kind of call. However, I think its the only thing thats even remotely close to Uber in this metagame so far. I just don't think it contributes whatsoever to a healthy metagame and I don't think anyone will be sad to see it gone regardless.
  23. Skore

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    I've run into Deo-A a few times and it honestly didn't seem to be as threatening as you make it out to be.

    Perhaps it didn't have the support you've mentioned in your post and I think I'll have to try and pair it with a Follow Me user to see for myself but then, I haven't run into many Darkrai, Manaphy, Kyurem-B's etc either. The most common "uber" I run into is Thundurus-I who is not that Uber in doubles due to it's frailty.
  24. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Deo-A is a great wrecking ball, but it is more of a liability because even something like cresselia's spread modified icy wind threatens it.. The ubers from singles aren't a huge threat. Seriously, the only centralizing things are weather starters, cress and top. I didn't mean to imply that we should ban anything, just that the closest thing IS hitmontop. I figured if you want to make it a successful meta, then you would discuss whether bans/unbans were on the table.
    Like zekrom.. Ice beam, draco meteor and earthquake are already common and fakeout+intimidate makes short work of physical attackers. Possible unban? I don't think any of my teams would struggle to deal with it
  25. Skore

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    Personally I don't think an awful lot of the Ubers from singles that we left out of Doubles WOULD be a problem.

    Think Lugia and Ho-oh, I don't see my teams struggling to handle either of them.
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