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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
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    I agree that there isn't much difference in the level of strategy between the two, but I think they are a little more fundamentally different than that. Mainly, the fact that you have to use every Pokémon on your team in every battle (except the ones you win by a wide margin anyway) means that you can't afford to use techs or any other Pokémon that are dead weight against certain teams, which I found out the hard way when I lost in the mini-tour because of Infernape being useless against rain - in VGC, I could have simply not used it and then not been at a disadvantage. To a lesser extent, the longer games make bulky offense and Leftovers more powerful (even if Item Clause were off, how many VGC teams would run multiple Leftovers?), while slightly weakening temporary/one-shot effects like gems and Tailwind.
  2. Antar

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    @BlueCookies--I was being a bit flippant in my comment about the limits of 4v4 strategies, but I do want to ask: just how much 3v3 Singles have you played? I ask because 3v3 singles isn't too far off from 6v6 [edit: by your standards]--it just feels like "6v6 lite," albeit with more hax and less hazards.

    As to the larger issue, I think what the VGC people were trying to say is that it's silly of us to ignore all the research they've done into their metagame and treat SDoubles as if it's a completely new entity. I think the point is valid, though it could've been stated less insultingly.
  3. Synre

    Synre
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    I think you guys would probably find you'd get less trolly responses from VGC players if you stopped acting like you had even the slightest clue how to play VGC.


    Nobody is going to change anyone else's opinion on a metagame by arguing in this thread, especially not with posts like Quantam's and Pocket's and Ray's(god damn it Ray I was trying to slow this down, not fan it!!!). I suspect you would be surprised at how much some of the more experienced doubles players might be willing to give input on stuff but probably if you want them to do that it would be a good idea to stop pretending you know more than you do(especially about VGC rather than your own metagame), because that just gets you posts like the last page and a half. Otherwise, I'd just suggest everyone have fun doing whatever they have fun doing.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    We're not ignoring VGC info - we're actively integrating it into our metagame! Let's not be petty VGC peeps ;0 I would also recommend you guys to view this thread in its entirety rather than the recent phase of lackluster posts when you make your judgment calls.

    I'm actually interested in some input from VGC players. How useful are entry hazards in VGC? In Smogon Doubles, we have found that laying Stealth Rock can be quite handy, due to lengthier games and more switches that take place. It was definitely surprise when we came to this conclusion.
  5. peng

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    If anything, I think 6v6 teams are more one-trick ponies than 4v4. With 4v4, you can run techs to completely change the way your team plays in certain match-ups. 6v6 teams don't have this luxury - running a Rain Dish Ludicolo to give you a better match-up against rain will mean you're effectively 6-5 down against anything thats not rain. When you are obliged to bring all of your pokemon to every battle, you almost have to direct your team towards once certain playstyle or win condition, whereas well-built VGC teams have the ability to run multiple "modes" depending on what they are facing.
  6. makiri

    makiri My vast and supreme will shall be done!
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    I think I started this strategy and yes it is pretty overpowered. It is exceptional at just OHKOing anything. I didn't even put any thought into the rest of my team and I got to the mid 1800s just on the backs of Kyurem-B and Victini firing off Fusion attacks. The rest of the team has very little synergy and is just full of Pokemon I wanted to use. I'm sure if someone sat down and put a better supporting cast around those two they would get to the top of the ladder really quickly. I really only like playing this meta because of the ability to use things like Victini (which I think is one of the best mons in this tier, nothing likes taking base 180 or 200 attacks and also makes things like Rock Slide and Draco Meteor more reliable).

    I'm also not going to tell you guys how to run this tier but Fish's post still continues to ring true, there is a whole world out there that doesn't care about about a meta created by a fan site, nearly 7.5 million to be exact. Doubles is also not something new, it has been the defacto metagame since 2006 (JAA) and has had tons of support not only from the creators but the players themselves. There is a difference from Smogon support and a worldwide official support. I get Smogon wants control over what you guys play, but keep things in perspective.

    On the topic of exploring doubles, we sort of laugh at the discovery of strategies that we once used ages ago. Things like Zapdos+Garchomp, Whimsicott+Terrakion, etc all nice and all but they are severely limiting. Thinking in pairs like that hasn't been done in VGC in a long time and why I urge players here to explore VGC and Nugget Bridge you will find a lot of tools and resources that would help you excel here. Instead of thinking in pairs think of your whole team as a cohesive unit, you guys are in a unique situation where you can use all 6 Pokemon, don't limit your strategies and ideas to 3 pairs of Pokemon or even just 6 Pokemon that follow the same idea. I've been laddering considerably and I noticed either people have a team of 6 Trick Room Pokemon (6 Rain Pokemon, 6 Sun Pokemon, etc) and can't succeed if they don't get Trick Room going or just the pair idea where if you don't have your two Pokemon out at the same time you crumble. The best players have been those that adapt to the situation in front of them not just blindly execute a strategy.

    Some of us may be trolling (Fusion team is really bad beyond Victini/Kyurem) but the lack of really good teams that take advantage of all 6 Pokemon have let us just climb the ladder very quickly with our VGC inspired teams. So I really urge you guys to actually visit and read and even post on Nugget Bridge, I'm not meaning to advertise but you will gain a lot of understanding of doubles. We have gone through a lot of the trials and tribulations that you guys have already, bring yourselves up to speed to succeed in your own metagame.
  7. tennisace

    tennisace
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    Hi that was me using my VGC team, where Smack Down is more useful to deal extra damage to floaty things like Thundurus-I and Rotom-W and Tornadus-I etc. The real advantage of Smack Down over Gravity is actually what you mentioned: I can use any number of Pokemon that get Smack Down without caring if they're weak to Earthquake. That way, I don't have to use Telepathy Mushy or Protect every time I want to spam Earthquake.

    If I'm going to use one of my team slots to set up a field effect, it's probably going to be Trick Room, since you can use it in a bunch of different ways (for yourself to sweep, for reversing your opponent, etc).

    Also: Bulk Up Scrafty is pretty cool for smacking around a TON of the "new" Pokemon available in Smogon Doubles. It has great coverage with just two moves, and Intimidate is great for slowing down your opponent.
  8. Synre

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    I would expect Stealth Rock to be good in 6v6, especially once players get better. Most of the VGC guys who have tried this have been amused at how many players seem to believe the fallacy that you don't have to switch in doubles, which reduces the impact SR has, but given that you'd get 4 SR hits minimum using it on turn 1 you'd probably wind up doing better than average damage for that action over the course of the battle in addition to breaking Sashes and hitting some of the Smogon Doubles-specific threats for bonus damage (Kyurem, Victini). I think it's probably more playable than we think it is in VGC too (though it'd be very, very situational) but I would expect it to wind up mostly standard here since once players improve it'll wind up doing a Pokemon worth of damage every game probably... would just have to be careful leading it every game because it doesn't apply pressure to the shitty gimmick leads like Terracott.
  9. BlueCookies

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    I agree that little techs lose value in 6v6, but they never really had a whole lot of value to begin with. For example, yeah tentacruel is cool for shutting down topmoth and rain and if the opponent doesnt have them just dont pick it, but that kind of strategy wasn't really viable in VGC to begin with. "Bulky Offense" is already the top tier threat in VGC, just as I imagine it is in 6v6. Pokemon that can't take hits like Weavile/Infernape/Gengar aren't very good. Pokemon with good resistances, bulk, and nice offensive stats+movepool have always been the top threats like Tyranitar/Metagross etc and in past generations Snorlax/Gyarados/Zapdos etc and likely always will (kind of common sense, but I know there are plenty of newer players who like to use Weavile or Jolteon or Gengar etc). Without item clause VGC teams would be using multiple Sitrus Berries, not leftovers. But I agree the longer battles make leftovers a little more viable. The other important thing is how 6v6 would affect how teams go about utilizing Trick Room since 5 turns in a VGC match is different than 5 turns in a 6v6 match. So yeah there are some slight differences, but both are extremely similar.

    Someone asked me how much I played singles a few posts up. I played a lot of 6v6 singles before 2009 when I officially quit playing that and started only played VGC. I'm kind of close to the Japanese community so I've had some experience playing 3v3 too, however that was obviously in gen 5 while my 6v6 experience was in gen 4. I definitely think gen 5 is more offensive than gen 4, so again that could have led to why I view them as so different. Another reason could be because smogon just bans everything that is good. "the team" from 3v3 singles that a ton of people were using was hippo/excadrill/latios/rotom/blaziken/something else I forgot or a slight variation of that. Rain was also solid, and then just the all around teams were solid too. but afaik rain and sand shit, blaziken, latios are all banned so that could definitely be the biggest reason why to me they seemed so much different. There was also the fact that 3v3 was much faster paced, and the games ended much more quickly. One prediction in 3v3 could lead to winning/losing the game, where there is much more room for error in 6v6. There was also significantly more full-blown stall in 6v6. I also was playing 6v6 vs the smogon people whereas all my 3v3 was vs Japanese players, and I think in general the Japanese are better players than the rest of the world (just as they are in doubles, so not bashing singles players on smogon or anything) so that also might have affected why I think there is a big difference between 3v3 and 6v6 singles.
  10. Pwnemon

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    yes SR is something i tried for a while in this meta; with the rest of the team being rotom/kingdra/toed/scizor/cube i experimented with a variety of SR setters, including Lando-T, Celebi, Infernape, Terrakion and even Archeops. It was definitely useful; if situational. It had great use in beating Sun and Hail teams as Abomasnow and Ninetales have to switch in a lot more than once and it keeps it from being free, and has uses in taking out other big threats such as Zapdos, Skymin, Kyurem, Victini, etc. It was a pretty situational move when I tried it, though; either i'd say 'this'll be useful against my opponent' and set it up the first turn, or i wouldn't set it up at all. With Rotom and Scizor using VolTurn, i could force my opponent to shuffle their team around to keep up with my team and really rack up the Stealth Rock damage. I assume that had i kept it up, SR may have become more common, forcing me to adjust my strategy. However, I had a problem not with the move, but with finding a good setter; eventually I dropped whatever i was using for SR and replaced it with Hitmontop in order to handle the big threats to my team of Kingdra and Ferrothorn. If i could only find a good setter I would love to re-instate Stealth Rock on my team, because it is in fact quite useful for this meta.

    @makiri, what you're saying about not making "three pairs" is what i've been echoing since joining this meta. I completely agree.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Lol wow, who would've thought Fusion Bolt / Fusion Flare's secondary effects would ever see use! Only in Doubles does this cool shit happens! I'll need to give that a test drive ;d

    Thanks, makiri, for your thoughtful post. I wish more VGC players would be more helpful like you. I do caution you from drawing any conclusions from Showdown's ladder, though, since most Double players know that it's more nooby than VGC's ladder (avg weight Doubles: 0.685; VGC: 0.741 as per Antar's usage stats).

    NBridge is certainly a cool resource, but it's cluttered with irl events and other miscellaneous information that does not really interest us. Basically, it's quite difficult to navigate when one is looking for doubles strategies. The Beginnger's section definitely seems helpful for the newer players here, but I think most of us are well past that. I'll certainly give it a good read, though! Mind if I link those beginner articles to the OP?

    What would be more beneficial, though, if you guys would invest some interest to our metagame even at a casual level, and offer some enlightening feedback. voodoo pimp, NixHex, PenguinX, Audiosurfer, and Exeggutor (anybody else I missed?) have done that, and we are truly grateful for them facilitating Smogon's understanding of the doubles format in general.

    PS: Synre, thanks for your thoughtful response, but like I cautioned in this post ladder players =/= average Doubles players that know what they're doing -_-;;
  12. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    I like and agree with this post and not just cause I like Paul :3

    Also, the notion that 4v4 teams can only be pigeonholed to one strategy is patently false. Team preview coupled with the fact that you don't have to use your whole team allow you to customize your strategy on the fly. I have used a specific VGC team that consists of a strong Rain/TR core with two other Pokemon to deal with opposing weather (Hail is a huge problem). That way, I can still maintain success under Trick Room while not being completely dependent on rain to succeed.
  13. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    I think this thread has turned around for the better, but I want to emphasize that all direct insults from this point out will be deleted and possibly moderated. There's nothing to really argue about here. Please utilize VGC resources to help understand the doubles metagame better, but also understand that 6v6 with a different banlist will play different than 4v4. This really doesn't need any more discussion. Thanks for your understanding!
  14. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I agree that it's much harder to use what you seem to be calling 'techs(?)' in 6v6. Just to help me get into the meta, I started off with a simple sand team using Heatran to help against sun and Gastrodon to help against rain. Yet Gastrodon isn't great against sun and Heatran is next to useless against rain meaning that whenever I faced a rain or sun team (not exactly a rare occasion), I was basically playing 5v6.

    So my question is: When teambuilding what do people take into account and what advice could you give a new player (like me) with teambuilding? Personally I think there's a lot more to take into account in doubles because you have to think about all 6 members working as many different pairs, and I find myself having to think much more about countering strategies and making every member of the team useful in its own way against them as well as single threats.
  15. Quantum

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    I am actually a huge fan of item clause for doubles and I find it one of the best aspects of the VGC. I think removing item clause from Smogon Doubles would allow for more diversity in Pokemon's roles (Life Orb already taken up my another Poke? Find something else) and would in general prevent obnoxious item spam, like multiple choice scarfs and life orbs, which gets ridiculous.

    A potential clause could be a "Protect clause" where a Pokemon can only use Protect once, where it fails upon successive use, preventing Protect spam, which borders on hax.


    @PenguinX; I like your explanation of team building in the VGC. The VGC truly is a unique style of play.
  16. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
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    Basic rule: have a specific goal in mind for your team (whether it's sweeping with certain Pokémon, abusing a field effect, etc.) and then make decisions for your team with that goal in mind. Try to focus on accomplishing that goal, supporting Pokémon that can accomplish that goal, and preventing your opponent from stopping you. While stopping your opponent from achieving their goal is important too, if you focus on it too much then you lose control of the match.

    While having specific pairs that work well together isn't a bad thing, any two of your Pokémon should be able to be in play at the same time (not a strict rule, though; it's ok to have Earthquake and a Ground-weak mon if you only have one weakness and several resists/immunities), and every Pokémon should have some specific reason for being on your team. But those reasons should be more focused toward accomplishing your own goal, not countering - ideally, your overall team should be able to at least stand a chance against every archetype. If you feel like you need to add a Pokémon specifically to counter a certain team style, then you should probably re-think your core strategy.
    It does not stack.
    I honestly don't have a problem with "item spam;" it's never bothered me. Protect Clause is actually kind of an interesting idea, though, that may be something to consider once the metagame gets more developed. I know I've been guilty of relying on that 50% chance on occasion :naughty:
  17. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I find both of these arguments really silly. We don't use item clause in singles just because we want more 'variety.' Having item clause would keep the same amount of variety but just slightly nerf a pokemon who wanted to use a life orb and had to settle for an expert belt or gem. In fact it could be argued that not having item clause means more diversity to allow certain tactics such as 'choice spam' as you mentioned. It doesn't get 'ridiculous' as it's not exactly anything broken. Basically why ban something that's not broken?

    As for protect, that's just how the mechanics work. It's like using a 50% accurate move. We're not exactly gonna ban Zap Cannon because it's effectively a coin flip on which way it could go. Most players only use this tactic as a last resort anyway; it's not overly common.



    Thanks Pocket Voodoo Pimp (confusing when 2 people have the same avatar) for that advice. You're right, I am too caught up on having something to 'counter' rain and something to 'counter' sun and 'counter' hail and what I ended up with was lackluster ways to counter all of them whilst forfeiting some of my own teams strategy. I guess with singles using one pokemon to help against a playstyle is more viable as you only have one pokemon out at a time.
  18. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Just some submissions from my venture into hail. Love the team I'm using so much. Anyways, first some replays(first wouldnt let me save a replay):
    Show Hide

    reachzero joined.
    Audiospicious 2.0 joined.
    Format:
    Smogon Doubles
    Sleep Clause: Limit one foe put to sleep
    Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon
    OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
    Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
    Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
    Audiospicious 2.0's team: Abomasnow / Rotom-Frost / Swampert / Cresselia / Hitmontop / Zapdos
    reachzero's team: Shaymin-Sky / Garchomp / Tyranitar / Rotom-Wash / Slowking / Conkeldurr
    Battle between reachzero and Audiospicious 2.0 started!
    reachzero sent out Tyranitar!
    reachzero sent out Conkeldurr!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Hitmontop!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Zapdos!
    Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
    Hitmontop intimidates the foe's Tyranitar!
    The foe's Tyranitar's Attack fell!
    Hitmontop intimidates the foe's Conkeldurr!
    The foe's Conkeldurr's Attack fell!
    The foe's Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
    Turn 1

    The foe's Tyranitar used Protect!
    The foe's Tyranitar protected itself!
    Hitmontop used Fake Out!
    The foe's Tyranitar protected itself!
    Zapdos used Tailwind!
    The tailwind blew from behind your team!
    The foe's Conkeldurr used Ice Punch!
    [DEBUG] Iron Fist boost.
    It's super effective! Zapdos lost 51% of its health!
    Zapdos was frozen solid!
    Zapdos ate its Sitrus Berry!
    Zapdos restored HP using its Sitrus Berry!
    The sandstorm rages.
    Zapdos is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Hitmontop is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    [DEBUG] natural immunity.
    [DEBUG] weather immunity.
    The foe's Conkeldurr is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Turn 2

    Audiospicious 2.0: O.O
    Audiospicious 2.0 called Zapdos back!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Cresselia!
    reachzero called Tyranitar back!
    reachzero sent out Slowking!
    Hitmontop used Close Combat!
    The Fighting Gem strengthened Close Combat's power!
    It's not very effective... The foe's Slowking lost 45% of its health!
    Hitmontop's Defense fell!
    Hitmontop's Special Defense fell!
    The foe's Conkeldurr used Drain Punch!
    [DEBUG] Iron Fist boost.
    Hitmontop lost 67% of its health!
    Hitmontop had its energy drained!
    The sandstorm rages.
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Hitmontop is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    The foe's Conkeldurr is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    The foe's Slowking is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Turn 3

    reachzero called Conkeldurr back!
    reachzero sent out Rotom-Wash!
    Cresselia used Psychic!
    The foe's Rotom-Wash lost 35% of its health!
    Hitmontop used Close Combat!
    The foe's Rotom-Wash lost 65% of its health!
    Hitmontop's Defense fell!
    Hitmontop's Special Defense fell!
    The foe's Rotom-Wash fainted!
    The foe's Slowking used Trick Room!
    The foe's Slowking twisted the dimensions!
    The sandstorm rages.
    The foe's Slowking is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Hitmontop is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    reachzero sent out Conkeldurr!
    Turn 4

    reachzero called Conkeldurr back!
    reachzero sent out Tyranitar!
    Cresselia used Helping Hand!
    Cresselia is ready to help Hitmontop!
    Hitmontop used Sucker Punch!
    [DEBUG] Boosting from Helping Hand.
    It's super effective! The foe's Slowking lost 43% of its health!
    The foe's Slowking fainted!
    The sandstorm rages.
    [DEBUG] natural immunity.
    [DEBUG] weather immunity.
    Hitmontop is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Your team's tailwind petered out!
    reachzero sent out Conkeldurr!
    Turn 5

    The foe's Conkeldurr used Mach Punch!
    [DEBUG] Iron Fist boost.
    Hitmontop lost 8% of its health!
    Hitmontop fainted!
    The foe's Tyranitar used Crunch!
    It's super effective! Cresselia lost 60% of its health!
    Cresselia used Psychic!
    It's super effective! The foe's Conkeldurr lost 49% of its health!
    The sandstorm rages.
    The foe's Conkeldurr is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    [DEBUG] natural immunity.
    [DEBUG] weather immunity.
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Swampert!
    Turn 6

    The foe's Conkeldurr used Drain Punch!
    [DEBUG] Iron Fist boost.
    Swampert lost 47% of its health!
    Swampert had its energy drained!
    Swampert used Earthquake!
    [DEBUG] artificial immunity.
    It doesn't affect Cresselia...
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    The foe's Conkeldurr lost 40% of its health!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    A critical hit! It's super effective! The foe's Tyranitar lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Tyranitar fainted!
    Cresselia used Rest!
    Cresselia fell asleep!
    Cresselia slept and became healthy!
    Cresselia ate its Chesto Berry!
    Cresselia woke up!
    The sandstorm rages.
    The foe's Conkeldurr is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    [DEBUG] natural immunity.
    [DEBUG] weather immunity.
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    reachzero sent out Shaymin-Sky!
    Turn 7

    Audiospicious 2.0 called Swampert back!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Zapdos!
    Zapdos is exerting its pressure!
    The foe's Conkeldurr used Rock Slide!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! Zapdos lost 48% of its health!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    Cresselia lost 15% of its health!
    Cresselia used Icy Wind!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    The foe's Conkeldurr lost 8% of its health!
    The foe's Conkeldurr's Speed fell!
    Cresselia's attack missed!
    [DEBUG] doubling secondary chance.
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky used Seed Flare!
    It's not very effective... Zapdos lost 21% of its health!
    Zapdos fainted!
    The sandstorm rages.
    The foe's Conkeldurr is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky is buffeted by the sandstorm!
    The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
    Audiospicious 2.0 sent out Abomasnow!
    Abomasnow's Snow Warning whipped up a hailstorm!
    Turn 8

    Abomasnow used Protect!
    Abomasnow protected itself!
    The foe's Conkeldurr used Mach Punch!
    Abomasnow protected itself!
    [DEBUG] doubling secondary chance.
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky used Air Slash!
    Cresselia lost 19% of its health!
    Cresselia used Icy Wind!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    The foe's Conkeldurr lost 5% of its health!
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky ate its Yache Berry!
    [DEBUG] -50% reduction.
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! The foe's Shaymin-Sky lost 20% of its health!
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky's Speed fell!
    The foe's Conkeldurr fainted!
    The hail crashes down.
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky is buffeted by the hail!
    Cresselia is buffeted by the hail!
    [DEBUG] natural immunity.
    [DEBUG] weather immunity.
    reachzero sent out Garchomp!
    Turn 9

    The foe's Garchomp used Fire Blast!
    A critical hit! It's super effective! Abomasnow hung on using its Focus Sash!
    Abomasnow lost 100% of its health!
    [DEBUG] doubling secondary chance.
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky used Air Slash!
    Cresselia lost 17% of its health!
    Cresselia used Icy Wind!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! The foe's Garchomp lost 31% of its health!
    The foe's Garchomp's Speed fell!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! The foe's Shaymin-Sky lost 35% of its health!
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky's Speed fell!
    Abomasnow used Blizzard!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! The foe's Garchomp lost 69% of its health!
    [DEBUG] Spread modifier: 0.75.
    It's super effective! The foe's Shaymin-Sky lost 33% of its health!
    The foe's Garchomp fainted!
    The foe's Shaymin-Sky fainted!
    Audiospicious 2.0 won the battle!
    reachzero: gg
    Audiospicious 2.0: gg
    Audiosurfer vs. CasKade
    Audiosurfer vs. Doctor Whooves
    Audiosurfer vs. The Taco

    Next submission is a team I made. I've been using a hail team for some time now, but I recently refined it and it's been working a lot better, so I figured I'd submit an earlier version that had performed pretty well:
    Show Hide

    Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Blizzard
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Shard
    - Protect

    Rotom-Frost @ Ice Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 12 HP / 248 SAtk / 248 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Protect

    Suicune @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald / Hydro Pump
    - Icy Wind / Blizzard
    - Rest

    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 28 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psychic
    - Icy Wind
    - Helping Hand
    - Rest

    Scrafty (M) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Drain Punch
    - Crunch
    - Detect

    Garchomp @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Claw
    - Crunch / Rock Slide / Stealth Rock
    - Protect

    As many know, Hail is a pretty strong weather due to having a powerful spread move with good offensive typing. This team was meant to capitalize off of that with an additional Blizzard user. Suicune was meant to set up on Steels that could take Blizzards, and Garchomp was meant to kill them with EQ. Cresselia provides great support and kills fighting types and Scrafty provides Fake Out support and Intimidate support while acting as a check to Cresselia (which this team has trouble with, especially CM varients).
  19. Skore

    Skore

    Joined:
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    Is 2 Icy Wind users necessary on your team?
    With Suicune setting up Calm Mind's he seems perfect for a 3rd Blizz spammer.

    I'm a little unclear on Bulldoze mechanics, does it hit your partner or just the opponent, if so - it could be a potential replacement for Crunch on your Garchomp unless you really need the Cress coverage.
  20. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    The reason I use Crunch is because I really do need the Cress coverage since as I said the team has trouble with it. And 2 Icy Winders is nice to have speed control, since the fastest mon on the team is 102, which wont even outspeed Jolly Musketeers, and the rest of the team is pretty slow anyways. Blizzard is nice, but Icy Wind has many benefits, and 8 PP can suck at times. Definitely an interesting option though (freeze chance is nice too). If you wanna use the team and want a move other than Crunch, I'd go Rock Slide since Volcarona sets up on most of the members of the team and there aren't any ways of stopping it when it gets going, or Substitute for when you have free turns. SR could also be a nice one to help against Sun Teams, which could give some trouble, as well as Flying types.
  21. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2012
    Messages:
    311
    Gravity + Whimsicott's Grasswhistle is neat, Jumpluff is also cool because it's more accurate without Gravity on and pretty fast on his own right, both of them resist Earthquake. Whimsicott can set Priority Tailwind while Jumpluff is a Rage Powder user. Another potential Gravity abuser from the accuracy side is Speed Boost Yanmega with Hypnosis, also Earthquake resistant under Gravity and a threat on his own.
  22. Sapphire Birch

    Sapphire Birch
    is a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    335
    Just met someone on the ladder who said regenerator is useless in doubles.


    People still have a long way to go.
  23. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,548
    Someone said they couldn't pick a good stealth rock user. I think bronzong is an excellent option. It can switch into dragon nukes, blizz spam, eq and rock slide and has plenty of bulk for neutral hits. I would put trick room on it whether you are running tr or not because you can reverse it back to normal that way. The last two slots can go to gyro ball, explosion, hp ice, 1 or both screens, etc.
  24. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald Horsing around
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Visual Media Head

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    My favorite Stealth Rocker by far Landorus-T. Intimidate, two spread moves, immunities to Earthquake and Discharge, really high Attack, and he isn't dirt slow; he's just a really good doubles Pokemon. I like to keep one SR user on the team, just in case, so I've been playing around with some other Pokemon because Lando doesn't fit on every team. Celebi is a fun Pokemon to use, and it gives both Rain and Sand a hard time. Only problem is it doesn't do that great against Sun, which is what you want to use SR against. Still, with ok base 100 Speed it can manage to through up SR sometimes.
  25. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    The problem with Stealth Rock in this format isn't that its bad, its just difficult to find room in your team for it. There are 8 Pokemon that learn it in top 20 usage, but only 2/3 of them have room on the moveset for it and even then its taking the place of some other good moves.

    • #7 Terrakion
      • Close Combat / Scared Sword + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, leaves one slot that you could use SR in, but when Terrakion is one of the few Pokemon that gets cool niche moves like Quick Guard and Safeguard, I'd probably rather run one of those anyway.
    • #9 Tyranitar
      • Crunch + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, Stealth Rock isn't that bad here, but you find yourself completely unable to hit the omnipresent Fighting-types. I'd probably rather run Low Kick / Superpower so I'm not completely walled by stuff like Scrafty but Stealth Rock is definitely usable here.
    • #10 Garchomp
      • Dragon Claw + Earthquake + Protect are staples, would much rather run Substitute or Rock Slide in the last slot here than Stealth Rock.
    • #11 Metagross
      • Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch + Earthquake + Protect, no room for Stealth Rock and even if you had a chance to drop one of these moves, Zen Headbutt should be the move filling that space anyway.
    • #13 Heatran
      • Heat Wave + Earth Power + Protect are staples, and that last slot is generally Substitute or another coverage move like Hidden Power [Ice]. Heatran really can't afford the moveslots imo, dropping Substitute means you lose out on a ton of utility and dropping Hidden Power [Ice] means you get hard walled by a ton of stuff. Without either of these moves I don't see what Heatran is really doing.
    • #14 Ferrothorn
      • Leech Seed + Protect + Power Whip / Gyro Ball are staples, but Ferrothorn would really appreciate being the other STAB move, Substitute or Thunder Wave in that last slot rather than Stealth Rock. Definitely usable here but it has competition from a lot of other cool moves.
    • #15 Landorus-T
      • Probably the best option for SR out of all of these. Earthquake + Rock Slide + Protect are staples and SR does fit in nicely in the last slot. You lose out on being able to use something like U-Turn, but running SR in slot 4 isn't nearly as bad for Lando as it is for most of the others here.
    • #18 Excadrill
      • Earthquake + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, but Exca really needs that last slot. It has a bunch of really good options here, like Drill Run, Substitute, Magnet Rise and Swords and SR just isn't worth the space here most of the time.

    Some of these can fore-go Protect, but then thats just opening up some exploitable holes for the sake of running Stealth Rock. I think SR is one of those moves that is definitely useful in a lot of situations, but you shouldn't be bending over backwards trying to find room for it as you would in singles.
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