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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Yes, this.

    Its versatility and ability to combine sets keep it viable, but what's really going for it is that you CAN use it for lots of things and in some scenarios it is the best option. Fine-tuned teams with specific needs generally would be better off with something else though, such as Togekiss for bulky T-Wave, Hitmontop as a disrupter, Dusclops for a TR setter or Politoed for a Helping Hander. Those are just examples though, other options could work and they don't necessarily ALWAYS outperform Cress.



    @Habbibs's post below me
    I agree with most, but..
    There is no way Heatran is dropping! Scarftran and Eruptiontran are both popular and deadly. Flash Fire and being great for team synergy for switches provide niches to keep it from being directly outclassed by Volc in general use. Terrakion is also going to stick around because Terracott, even if it is a gimmick, it is incredibly popular. Plus Terrakion is decent in its own right.

    Finally, of course Trick Room teams are bad ON THE LADDER. Every weather team looks bad on the ladder too. Most opponents won't predict properly with Protect(at the very least if you can't predict, you should Protect both during a Fake Out turn) or won't carry Protect at all.

    Anyway... guys how do you feel about QUASH? In my experience with using it on Murkrow, it was very powerful. You can do awesome things like make Spore Amoonguss outspeed something or make your TR setter outspeed something set to KO it. It could even be as simple as there is a fast Pokemon on the other side of the field that is a huge threat, so you make it go last and OHKO it. Murkrow could possibly be as good as Hitmontop at disrupting with Featherdance, Quash, T-Wave, Taunt, Snarl, Roost. Hitmontop has been performing subpar for me lately with faster Fake Out users starting to flood into the meta anyway and people catching onto Wide Guard.
    Raikou and Mew get Quash as well! Plus Slowking has a very fast Quash after Trick Room if you for some reason have trouble with anti-TR pokes like Gastrodon.
  2. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    About Cresselia: This is not VGC where you have to have short battles and need to counter as many threats/combinations as possible with 4 (6) pokemon. Cress suffers because suddenly toxic is a lot more viable, being 3hkoed at best is no longer a real "advantage" per se if you have no resistances of note or "presence" and well.. Earthquake users are really suffering in rain and with so many earthquake immune pokemon. The most common "self affecting" spread moves I am personally seeing atm are discharge, surf and the odd explosion, Earthquake isn't quite as dominant as it otherwise was earlier in the meta.

    My predictions are that Metagross and Volcarona become stable top 10, Cress drops out of the 10 eventually and Hitmontop will probably remain in the top 3 for a very very very long time, kind of like Ferro in singles... I'll also predict Thundurus-I another top 10 soon its resistances and priority are too useful to pass up!!

    edit: after taking another look at the top 10/20: Latios, Terrakion and Scizor won't be there for much longer!! Heatran will probably fall into top 30 at best and Land-T might creep into top 10! lets find out how accurate my predictions are :P

    Also I have found that Sableye is a better prankster than Whimsicott if you want a durable prankster as opposed to a versatile one. Recover + no weakness means it can last surprisingly long!!

    I still remain totally unconvinced that TR is as deadly as everybody here seems to make it look.. It's far too easy to stall out TR teams and most pokemon that can use TR suffer to common taunt pokemon or don't have the right spread moves etc.

    I always stall out turns with protect/fake out.

    sample: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9830142 (although I must admit its not a well designed TR team)
  3. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    That TR team was bad conceived and used poorly indeed.

    Heatran will always keep some niche usage because of Eruption/Heat Wave.
  4. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime You play victimless, but you gave the kiss of death
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    Doubles Queen

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    got to #2 on ladder with a trick room team.
    not to mention that trick room is one of the dominant play styles in any doubles metagame...
  5. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Exeggutor, I meant your stereotypical bad opponent, not people that have made top 5.
    He should judge TR based on your team, not whoever was in that lackluster replay.
  6. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Just for future reference, when making any arguments about a set, team archetype, etc. please make sure that your opponents are of some quality. Yes, we all get that bad players can make good things bad. I've seen plenty of awful teams laddering on the Doubles ladder and we get that there are plenty of inexperienced people. However, making an argument for something's viability and using those sorts of players to support your argument should be avoided.
    For example Habibs, as others have already said, that TR match was a poor example of the viability of TR, and really didn't have any place in a decent discussion. If you planned on posting a replay, you should've made sure that the team wasn't too bad(obviously not every team is perfect, but a reasonable amount of quality is nice.). If you have trouble finding a team with the right amount of quality on the ladder, you can always go on #doubles and ask someone there to play you in a match, since the people there are generally better than the average ladder player. This isn't saying not to use any replays from the ladder, but just try and use your judgment as to whether the team was a decent enough one to justify whatever position you're holding.
  7. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    Trick Room is definitely not an unviable playstyle. In fact I have always found it to be my favorite playstyle in doubles, particularly in VGC where I have used it at every event I attend. The beauty of Trick Room is that when TR is up, assuming you use a good team that's not just a bunch of base <50 speed attackers, you have complete control over who moves first. Your opponent can run all the Scarfers and Tailwind users they want, but Trick Room negates them. Most Pokemon who are viable in Tailwind are still "too fast" against a good TR team under normal conditions, so TR will still dominate. That being said, Trick Room needs just as much support as any. Hitmontop or even Scrafty can be just as amazing in TR as on any other archetype. Rage Powder Amoonguss basically gives your teammate a free opportunity to use Trick Room, absorbing the opponent's Fake Out (possibly getting a bonus Effect Spore status unless you're running Regenerator), then putting something to sleep the next turn if it didn't get Taunted. Putting two TR users and 4 slow bulky attackers is not a way to win.

    edit: crap, I didn't know that! My primary TR leads in the past have been Ghosts, namely Jellicent and very rarely Dusclops, so I haven't had to worry about Fake Out. Just an idea, thanks for clearing that up for me. Regardless, my point was that Rage Powder goes a long way in helping your TR user actually set it up rather then possibly get double targeted.
  8. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Concerning the Cress discussion:

    I pretty much disagree with everything that youngjake3 says; Cress is probably the best TR user. I actually think that it's arguably the best Pokemon in the Doubles metagame.

    Cress has much more support options and unpredictability than Dusclops and Pory2. Dual screens, TR, Thunder Wave, Icy Wind, HH, Skill Swap, Swagger, Safeguard, Hidden Power Fire (to act as a Scizor lure) are her great support moves; I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot something from this list. Pory2's only good support moves are TR, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave, and the last 2 don't pair well with TR. Cress actually has better overall bulk than Dusclops.
    Cress and Dusclops damage calculations against very strong super-effective attacks (open)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cresselia: 374-444 (84.23 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 236-278 (83.09 - 97.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Very little difference in physical durability. Keep in mind that TTar rarely holds CB in Doubles.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 186-222 (65.49 - 78.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 282-332 (63.51 - 74.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Cress has better special bulk, and the difference between their special bulk is greater than the difference between their physical bulk. This is even more important considering that special bulk is usually better than physical bulk in Doubles


    Also, these bulks exclude Cress' item; she will generally take physical hits better with either Leftovers or Sitrus Berry. Or it can hold Mental Herb to avoid Taunt. Cress also can actually use its STAB to hit the common Fighting-types super-effectively; Dusclops' STAB Shadow Ball is less useful given how specially bulky most Psychic- and Ghost-types are, and that when not hitting super-effectively, it's usually outclassed by Night Shade. Pory2 is also bound to Eviolite.

    Higher Speed for Cress isn't a big issue; try it and you'll know it. It still outspeeds most things under TR, and for those you don't, you have teammates. I used a TR team with Cress that got #1 on the ladder. The only common scenarios I found that Cress isn't outspeeding the opponent in TR is against Ferrothorn or against another TR team.

    Regards Fake Out, pair Cress with a Fake Out user of your own to overcome this issue. Even a slower Fake Out user can Fake out the non-Fake Out the user, so either the turn ends with only both Fake Outs being used, or your Fake Out user is Faked Out and Cress gets TR up. Even without support, good luck trying to KO Cress to stop it from getting TR up. Ifyour two Pokemon could potentially KO Cress, any smart Cress user would be aware of this threat and switch out to absorb the incoming attacks (not hard considering that the only attacks that can OHKO Cress without a crit are Bug- and Dark-types, so switch to a Steel- or Fighting-type); and nothing will OHKO without a crit with Intimidate support. For reference, what can reliably OHKO Cress is Bug Gem Megahorn from Heracross or Escavilier and Dark Gem Adaptability Crawduant Crunch, and . A few others may butnot always OHKO, like Bug Gem Scizor Bug Bite and Download boosted Bug Gem Genesect Bug Buzz (in Doubles, Download usually gives a +1 to Atk, and even with +1 SpA it's still not a guarantee).

    Bronzong, Cress, Slowking, Victini, Xatu, and Reuniclus do not have nearly the same bulk and support movepool as Cress. Whimsicott's support options are very good, but it's bulk is very lacking comparatively.

    Concerning Toxic, it's not on most teams, and Cress can always reset the Toxic counter by switching out. Cress can do so much, it's rarely a sitting duck even when poisoned.


    Fake Out and Rage Powder have the same priority. Amoonguss is slower than every Fake Out, preventing Rage Powder from activating. Your ally then has the chance to stop the TR user from getting TR, knowing that it won't be affected by Rage Powder.


    I will also discuss the team I got #1 to later. It features 3 Leftovers users, so it's very relevant for discussing Pocket's topic of the week.

    Posting this mainly for me to find easier when I post about my team (open)
    Topic of the Week #1: Leftovers

    Leftovers is one of the most common item in Singles ever since items were introduced in GSC. However, does Leftovers have a place in Smogon Doubles???


    Here are some guiding questions:

    ~ What qualities should a Pokemon possess to make the most use of Leftovers in Doubles?

    ~ Provide a moveset with Leftovers

    ~ Is Sitrus Berry Leftovers of Smogon Doubles? When does Leftovers outweigh the immediate 25% recovery of Sitrus Berry?
  9. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime You play victimless, but you gave the kiss of death
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    Doubles Queen

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    Dark very strong post but regarding the fakeout + rage powder priority levels, jellimoongus is very good trick room with rage powder + mental powder amoongus, all you have to do to avoid getting faked out is double protect turn 1 and you're guaranteed to get it up, though some amoongus don't run protect, it amazes me that they don't
  10. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    It's a very good combo. Having Protect on both leads make setting up TR easier, particularly against Fake Out.

    Your lead combo isn't unstoppable though. Taunt + Fake Out Toxicroak + Taunt Tornadus beats it. Fake Out with Toxi first turn, Taunt Jellicent with Tornadus. Turn 2, OHKO Amoonguss with Tornadus' Acrobactics, then Taunt with Toxicroak. Toxicroak could be replaced with Fake Out + Dragon Tail Scrafty and it would still work (Dragon Tail has higher priority than TR).

    I know facing such a combo is extremely rare (and Taunt + FO Toxicroak is rare and would be better with Protect or Sub instead of Taunt, but I have faced such a Croak before). I just wanted to show that no lead combo is guaranteed to set up TR. All TR teams need to be prepared to not get up their TR in the first two turns. Admittedly, some combos, like yours, are extremely difficult to stop from setting up and impossible to do so with most well-made teams. Even simpler combos like Fake Out / Ragepowder user + TR user without Mental Herb or Protect work fairly consistently.
  11. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I've seen better players use substitute to basically evade trick room turns..

    pick a fast sweeper: Kingdra

    apply 2 attacks: Draco Meteor/pulse + Muddy Water
    apply protect + sub = a lot easier to deal with trick room.

    Sub as they apply their "start" then protect as they try to break your sub if you feel the need, etc.

    Have also beat dedicated TR lead pairs by simply setting up (ie volcarona). The fact that most TR users use special attacks and their partners often rely on spread such as EQ and Rock Slide makes them more then manageable! Rage powder is a great move too its a shame it has such chitty distribution.

    @above replies to my replay: Lol @ thinking I used that replay to push my argument, just thought I'd supply a sample since replays keep this thread exciting!

    ... I'd like to see more replays (and I'm sure most people do) if every other person posting in here doesn't mind :P

    The doubles strategies are endless and watching replays of doubles matches is much more exciting than singles ones. I recently lost to a gimmick assist + fly + bounce + dive + shadow force which shows just how many strategies there are (that can actually work, even though it was a gimmick)

    edit: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9881764

    A more decent TR team that I had little trouble with.
  12. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Has any of the TR users in the forums tried to set up with a pokemon that also provides Feint support? I think that Feint support is quite cool to keep your opponents from wishfully trying to make your Trick Room run out by spaming Protect or blocking you with Wide Guard. Gallade is pretty cool for this because it can also play offensive when needed... And you also have Kecleon, with so many golden support moves you have to feel pretty bad for its poor stats :\
  13. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    How easy it is to play around Cress:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9884410

    Cress will always have:

    1. A method of speed control - icy wind, thunder wave, TR. One is untauntable the other two are incredibly useful
    2. Partners that enjoy her support: EQ basically... and the odd helping hand. She doesn't really help sweepers set up as she has no fake out, no wide guard, no powerful STAB to ohko threats... etc. Icy wind is decent but mediocre and its becoming more and more easy to ignore/play around.


    Cress will most probably have:
    1. A psychic STAB, typically psychic
    2. Screen(s)


    if you want to support set up - get a fake out/wide guard/ rage powder/ follow me supporter - Think Hitmontop, Sableye, Infernape
    if you want to go TR: Get another bulky mon with more offence/utility after setting up the TR, Musharna is "slow" enough and has useable SpAtk, Although I must commend Cress' bulk it is still fake out bait and lacks a decent offensive presence most other psychic TR setters have (Think Bronzong, Reuniclus, Musharna) :P bulky TR setting up can be done by ghosts!
    if you want to all around tank: tanking a few hits isn't as useful as it is in VGC, like in singles its all about resistances these days - Think Mantine, Amoonguss, Gastrodon

    edit: forgot to add, if you want a jack of all trades that does all of the above: Cresselia, although VGC is different to smogon doubles, VGC forced you to squeeze as much as you can in four slots...
  14. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    Two totally different people, not even comparable by any standard, but that's beside the point. I don't know Huy quite as well, but Biosci is one of the kindest people I've ever met, and one of the most helpful to boot. If you have a problem with him, or anyone else for that matter, it'd be much better to address this by talking directly to the person and bringing up the issue rather than by slinging mud on a forum post. If in THAT case they are being a problem, and you're being down to earth and discussing it civilly, then feel free to complain, but at least attempt to resolve it...

    Also...people swear. A lot. Welcome to the Internet :/ gotta brush it off and move on, especially if it's just one battle, can't get offended by every word that comes your way. Coming from someone who has the word "fuck" in his profile picture, I also find this sort of ironic...
  15. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I have no problem playing against either Huy or Biosci. Both of them are great Doubles/VGC players, and I praised them both for it.

    My comment was directed at the fact that whenever these two play on the ladder, a bunch if tagalongs will show up and disrupt matches. I've nothing against swearing. I have problems with people coming and being a nuisance during a match.

    Maybe you should read my other post concerning this before jumping to conclusions, eh?

    Edit: wonderful, now my post is gone? Oh well. I reiterate, Biosci and Huy are great players and I have no issues with them. It's the people that follow their ladder matches and disrupt games by being stupid and annoying. That's all. Sorry for any confusion I. That matter.
  16. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9968338
    @Turn 12, that is all

    Show Hide
    A critical hit close combat from Hitmontop didn't even do 50% to Chansey



    Randomely slapped together a team that doesn't really work well and I lose to random shit like leech seed skymin (lol) thanks to dat seed flare.. but anyway
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Habibs, thanks for the amusing replays; you outwit all these players using standard double teams with well-executed Wide Guards and status-stalling made possible through effective use of your Pokemon's resistances and immunities.

    And fuck, Guard Splitting Shuckle's insane defense onto Chansey x0x - what a troll!

    I've also been testing an unconventional strategy as well! Folks, I present to you: PerishTrap! This strategy was introduced to a fellow VGC player Sapphire Birch, and his impressive execution of this strategy against fledgling vgc playa yan sogeking send me an urge to try this out myself in this metagame. Basically you have a Perish Song (Politoed & Celebi) user and a Shadow Tag user (Eviolite Gothorita), with a support core of Fake Out users (Scrafty) and Rage Powder / Follow Me users @ Eject Button. There's quite a bit of maneuvering and guesswork involved in this strategy, so it's not as easy as Sapphire Birch initial game have fooled me. When I mean guesswork, I mean whether or not the opponent would attack on the turn I use Perish Song (if they do, then Amoonguss can Rage Powder and Eject Button out to Gothorita unscathed; if they don't, I'd have to switch in Gothorita manually). I added Skill Swap strategy into the mix, so that I can mobilize the gamebreaking Shadow Tag ability to other sturdy mons when Gothorita is about to bite the dust. This way, I can continue to trap mons without the help of Gothorita! Not needing to trap the last two mons is nifty, too!

    Oh yea, supposedly Eviolite Gothorita is much bulkier than Sitrus / Colbur / whatever Gothitelle, which is the reason why I'm using it ;x

    Here are some cool games involving this strategy:

    Perish Trap in Action:
    Pocket vs Firestorm
    Pocket vs Mr.lol

    Perish Trap Flopping:
    Oops, didn't save any of them ;x One was vs Eggy, who didn't attack me the turn I used Perish Song, so Amoonguss was unable to eject out to Gothorita. Everything went downhill from there.

    Another was vs Level 51 who used a (BAN ME PLEASE) Skill Swap-spamming team and ended up stealing my Shadow Tag and perish trapping me instead D:<
  18. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Pocket, in your second replay you switch toed out and back in to reactivate drizzle... why didn't you just use Skill Swap on it? It would have reactivated drizzle and accomplished the Skill Swap you wanted to do.
    You also Rain Danced right before you Skill Swapped for Drizzle, so you did not have infinite rain and wasted a turn =[
  19. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Perish Song seems pretty awesome, I'll definitively give it a try now. You're probably having a hard time with so many moves already, but maybe Ally Switch can mess with your opponents.
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I'm curious how some of the frailer heavy hitters from OU will work in Doubles? We've pretty much ruled Blaziken is pretty much too frail to work in doubles. Skymin dies hard. Breloom seems ok as a sub punch tank. Volcarona does very well in the absence of Rocks everywhere. Even the Genies seems to be doing well without HP Ice flying around everywhere.

    Anyone else have any ideas?

    What seems to be underwhelming or surprisingly good in Doubles?

    I've found Lilligant to be a star player in and out of sunlight. It can run a fast bulky set with Leaf Storm and OHKO TTar and Politoed.
  21. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    @BlankZero

    -Blaziken is actually really good in doubles! ever tried stalling with substitute and protect? it's incredibly hilarious stalling with him as he is a rather common target after protecting and sub protects you against everything but double targeting (but your ally can be dangerous too). He also has very useable offenses to clean of lower hp mons.. after experimenting with him for a while I'd consider Blaziken B rank.

    -Skymin is incredibly underwhelming. For a pokemon that absolutely destroys singles OU I can totally see it in the future as a niche pokemon in doubles OU, ice attacks ruin its day and it needs a boosting item and 3 attacks to break through some of its most common checks! It doesn't help that attacking a pokemon makes you vulnerable to being attacked yourself and you end up losing to top tier threats like Metagross because you don't want to target it with your stabs but instead go for the juicy Amoonguss (that protected).

    -Breloom I have personally found working best as a wall. Priority is pretty cool with Helping hand support at ohkoing ~60% of the faster sweepers after minor residuals but the fact that Breloom is quite literally one of the most commonly targeted mons in the tier (seriously put Breloom next to Volcarona and you'd be surprised how many people hate Breloom so much they acrobatics the Breloom and not the Volcarona -.-) means I prefer it to last.. It's also great at switching in with defensive sets!

    -Volcarona is quite literally "master race" in this tier.. countering her requires some not-so-standard strategies and she is probably the reason why no one really cares much for Heatran anymore. She is also probably the easiest set up sweeper to support considering a input/output ratio, you're getting about twice the return ratio with a Volcarona then the next best set up sweepers (Absorb bulb Ludicolo w/ fake out for example)

    Underwhelming:
    -Deoxys-A (lol)
    -Skymin (its really the fact that it has single target moves...)
    -Darkrai
    -Latios
    -Heatran
    -Cresselia (yes it's not a typo!)
    -Genesect (+1 bug gem bug buzz is pretty cool doh)
    -Tentacruel/Skarmory/Forretress and other walls of OU
    -Terrakion (its good, just not as good as I thought with intimidate everywhere)
    -Scizor (one of the most overrated pokemon based on usage stats!!)

    Surprisingly good:
    -Metagross (Holy sheet this goes from zero to hero)
    -Tornadus/Archeops (Dem acrobatics are amazing)
    -Tyranitar (one of the best lures)
    -Politoed
    -Mantine (I think I oversell this)
    -Sableye
    -Dusclops (I'd argue mental herb dusclops > eviolite)
    -Infernape
    -Shuckle!! (Really, try it in TR with one of the splits!)
    -Heracross (it gets feint + two hyper powered STABs and guts!!)
    -Conkeldurr (not as easily checked with intimidate as the others)
    -Kyurem-B & Victini (they're both good individually but I'd argue borderline ubers together -.-, Kyu-B is one of the best sub users with fake out support)
  22. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Kyurem-B and Victini using combo fusion volt/flare is hilarious.

    You use Heracross with Guts? Moxie is one nasty ability to have in this format, although it's true that Heracross lacks of spread moves to make the most of it.
  23. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Support Genesect is legit Habibs! Darkrai is good... but requires too much support and Eruptiontran is a boss, I guess you mean standard Heatran.
    Murkrow is super frail AND a supporter, but it functions somewhat like Sableye. You can debilitate your opponent, then spam Prankster Recover
    Why would you use mental herb Dusclops when there is Dusknoir?
    Yes, Shuckle is borderline broken lol. Guard Split, Power Split, Power Trick, Acupressure are all AMAZING in doubles.
    All of the Fake Out users are good even though most are fragile. Weavile for example can outspeed everything's Fake Out/Follow Me. It also can hit pretty hard with Ice Punch and Beat Up/Night Slash(Yea.. You actually don't have to use Beat Up on your teammate).

    Kyutini combo is more lolzy than viable imo. To abuse it you need Choice Scarves and then Tyranitar and Gastrodon don't really care about you.
  24. Skore

    Skore

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    Obviously movepools in doubles get way more creative, but Let's talk EVs.

    What pokemons do you find you need a different EV spread when playing doubles to when you're playing singles?

    Since my main team(s) tend to be Trick Room teams, I find myself much better able to shore up defensive stats on my pokemon as the EVs in speed are no longer required and this is true for TR teams across the board.

    But are non Trick Room players EVing differently than the standard 252/252/4 spreads so common in singles?
  25. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,548
    It's pretty useful to speed creep on base 70s with like 8 EVs in speed.

    Also, I run specially defensive on most things because of Intimidate+Featherdance+Burn destroying most physical threats and most spread moves are specially based.

    Umm I ran a 252 attack 252 sAtt Hydreigon under Tail Wind once with 4 spread moves and it served its function decently.

    Lots of things are worth going 252 HP over 252 speed because outspeeding isn't as simple with Fake Out, Follow Me, Protect, yada yada yada.

    The only thing you would want a unique spread for is something like Volcarona where you need just enough bulk, just enough speed, just enough power and hit certain thresholds at +0, +1, +2.

    My most unique spread was Snorlax:
    Snorlax (F) @ Silk Scarf
    Trait: Immunity
    EVs: 40 HP / 136 Atk / 200 Def / 132 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Curse
    - Last Resort

    Perfect mixed bulk at +1 Def and just enough EVs in Attack to make +Att worth it over +sDef. But that was in TR.
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