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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Genesect is a pretty powerful and fast Simple Beam user, combine it with Accupressure and you can even boost +4 while Protecting. Intimidate hits you twice as hard, so you need an special sweeper. By the same token you can force switches using it if you get creative. All in all a fun strategy from a powerful Poke.
  2. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    25 vs 45 base speed
    Everybody expects eviolite and goes straight for the taunt.
    Negligible bulk difference considering dusclops is rarely dual targeted as it sets up

    The only thing left stopping it from getting TR up is spore which is a very annoying anti TR move..

    Jake I liked your quash murkrow what situations do you find it working really well?

    edit: I guess the main reason I found Heatran underwhelming was because against other TR teams.. its too "fast".

    As for Genesect its still a decent pokemon don't get me wrong but I was expecting an excellent pokemon after seeing it dominate singles lol, a little underwhelming to say the least but I can see simple beam working (lol imagine simple beam minimise)
  3. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Quash helps in so many situations.
    Let's say Scarf Terrakion with +6 from Beat Up is on the loose. You simply use Quash on it, then KO it with your partner before it gets to do anything.
    What if there is a Volcarona out ready to KO your Amoonguss? Simply use Quash, then Spore the Volcarona.
    What if your Chansey is withing KO range of an opposing physical attacker? Use Quash, then Softboil before they can attack.
    What if TR ran out and your sweeper is about to get hit hard? Use Quash and KO them before they get you.
    What if Latios is sitting there ready to Draco Meteor the life out of your Kyurem-Black? Lol... They won't know what hit them.
    There's plenty of other situations, but basically if you have something with middling speeds(Kyurem-Black) or something that tends to only be threatened by one opponent at a time(Amoonguss, Landorus) then you can deal with the threat rather than them outspeeding and annihilating you.

    However, Quash isn't the only thing good about Murkrow. Featherdance completely nerfs something like Kyurem-Black or Tyranitar. Most people only leave one physical attacker in for fear of Intimidate switch-ins, so sDef Murkrow Featherdancing the physical attacker becomes extremely long-lasting with Prankster Roost.
    Then you have Snarl coming off of STAB base 85 sAtt and weakening special attackers' offenses.
    Then there's all the other viable moves like Foul Play, Pluck(so annoying getting Sitrus eaten), Haze+Whirlwind, Weathers, Perish Song+Mean Look, Taunt+Torment, Thunder Wave+Toxic, Icy Wind, Swagger+Psych Up, Psycho Shift lol.

    Murkrow brings a lot to the table. Obviously it isn't even close to broken due to its base stats and stat distribution, but it can still be very threatening and in the current meta it will surprise your opponent a lot.
  4. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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  5. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    I'm sorry, but this statement makes absolutely no sense. Heatran is known for being one of the best Volcarona counters in singles, and with Volcarona's inability to run Hidden Power in this metagame (dual STAB+QD+Protect is best), Heatran passes it by no problem. Volcarona partners can beat Heatran, sure, but the common Volcarona partners are common with or without it, so they can't link Volcarona with Heatran's fall.
  6. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    strong interpretation of what I said...

    i meant Volcarona outclasses Heatran... and Heatran has no real niche except some nice resistances

    edit: Trick room + Trick Cresselia holding an iron ball with an EQ partner? could it possibly work? (levitators/flying types are common switch ins to EQ partners)
  7. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Running HP Ground on Volcarona makes it very fun indeed. Try a set with QD/Heat Wave/Giga Drain/HP Ground. You won't be disappointed.
  8. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    My mistake, you were talking about Volc counters in the same sentence, so of course I got confused...

    Blank, is it really worth giving up Protect for that?
  9. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Heatran is bulkier, gets Flash Fire boosts, typing is better, Stealth Rock, Roar(Roar+Quash/Fake Out combo ftw?), Earth Power>HP Ground, Magma Storm? Dragon Pulse and finally Eruption. You can make plenty of niches out of that. But yea Volcarona is *generally* better than Heatran.

    Why not use Musharna for that set? That way you can avoid Earthquake even before you use Trick.
  10. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Honestly, I think the use of the word outclasses really needs to stop in the sense that it's being used in this discussion. Volcarona in no way outclasses Heatran, since they serve very different functions on a team. Their niches don't even overlap unless you're just looking at it in terms of special attacking fire types (which isn't a great way to look at it anyways). As youngjake said, Heatran has many things that seperate it from Volcarona. Also, I think you're underestimating how valuable all the resists are, especially when you could be taking up to 2 attacks in the same turn. All the resists start to come in handy when it's necessary for you to live through an attack to be able to strike back. Flash Fire also lets Heatran act as a deterrent for people wanting to spam Heat Wave, since no one really wants to give up that boost. So yeah. It's one thing to say that you think that one pokemon tends to perform better in general in a current metagame, and then provide reasons as to why you think so, but simply saying that one pokemon outclasses another when their roles don't overlap to begin with is silly. Also, what Articblast said made sense, as even though you may have meant it to mean that Volcarona outclasses Heatran, an increase in Volcarona would spur more Heatran usage since Heatran is an amazing counter to Volcarona for the reasons listed by Articblast, so saying that Volcarona usage would cause a decrease in Heatran usage is still inaccurate.(also, when I read the statement I interpreted it the same way they did, so it wasn't like he was completely off or something.)
  11. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I speak with my experience only here but Heatran can essentially only be used well defensively over other fire types thanks to its typing. I want to compare Volcarona as a fire type to Heatran as a fire type, its about overall usefulness as the type on your team that will have excellent STAB but be weak to common spread moves!

    Now defensively it can do a lot against/for TR teams, Hail teams and Sun teams and it has pretty decent offensive presence to make it more attractive as a defensive mon (although I would never consider it an offensive mon). However it just isn't as "useful" as it otherwise should be (speaking from experience only...) with those 3 critical weaknesses, low speed, etc and lack of "presence" to "make them look less significant" them like other pokemon (Volcarona for instance)

    Heatran is weak to Fighting/Water/Ground and whilst ground weakness can be mitigated with wide guard support and/or air balloon, the other two probably make up 2 of the 3 most commonly used offensive types in the tier -.-. Other steels such as Metagross need minimal support to do their job (ie wide guard support for Metagross or a pokemon that fears little from common EQ/HW users whilst Meta protects ) whilst other fire types such as Volcarona have a very high return ratio for being used (Volcarona requires support but it pays dividends as she is one of the few pokemon that can often sweep an entire team)!

    When you consider the fact that pokemon that would otherwise be Heatran weak (i.e. Amoonguss) are typically paired with partners that care little for Heatran (ie TR partner so Amoonguss spores after protect) as well and that Heatran is neither fast (or slow) or powerful enough (in most cases) to be able to ignore this... you get a pokemon that might have amazing resistances but little oppurtunity to actually abuse them!!

    I like eruption Heatran and I think its great, I just found teams usually had little trouble dealing with it and common strategies easily got past eruption + TR not to mention Heatran is often too fast for a lot of TR teams (very serious, Amoonguss/Conkeldurr/Fake Out/etc are all common on non TR teams).

    TL;DR;

    Heatran is "good" (enough to stay OU obviously), people are getting emotional that I said Volcarona outclasses it as I believe it is a better fire type to use overall.. I just think Heatran is currently (based on strats I and others have used with it) quite underwhelming and apart from being fairly decent defensively (and running a mean TR set) it doesn't really stand out...
  12. Audiosurfer

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    Saying that Heatran's weaknesses somehow ruin it is kinda silly when saying that Volcarona is better, since Volc is weak to many common spread moves as well (Rock Slide, Surf, etc) and loses out on a Fire resist due to its Bug typing. While its weaknesses do hurt it, they don't hamper its usability significantly, and certainly not to the extent you're claiming. Also, Heatran doesn't need any more support than Metagross does to do its job effectively, seeing as Wide Guard support solves alot of the problems with Heatran the same it does for Metagross (Surf and EQ are both blocked, leaving only Fighting type moves, which you can take care of with teammates anyways.) And saying that Heatran is bad because it can scare out Amoonguss unless Amoonguss is partnered with something that can help beat Heatran isn't too great an argument since Heatran has a partner too. You can pair it with a Fake out user to prevent TR from going up so you can still hit Amoonguss with a Fire type move the next turn. And Heatran has only 5 less Sp.Atk points than Volcarona w/o a boost, so how it's somehow more underwhelming when it has less readily abusable weaknesses is beyond me. I agree that Volcarona is great, but I think you're greatly underestimating Heatran.
  13. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    It has its own merits, like being able to take out Heatran without balloon, so if you have a Tran issue, try it out.
  14. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I just want to side-track the discussion for a bit to talk about Leftovers; Pocket wanted it to be Topic of the Week though no one actually talked about it. (It might be better to include Topic of the Weeks as a separate thread so that it doesn't disrupt the discussion).

    Topic of the Week #1: Leftovers (open)


    Leftovers is one of the most common item in Singles ever since items were introduced in GSC. However, does Leftovers have a place in Smogon Doubles???


    Here are some guiding questions:

    ~ What qualities should a Pokemon possess to make the most use of Leftovers in Doubles?

    ~ Provide a moveset with Leftovers

    ~ Is Sitrus Berry Leftovers of Smogon Doubles? When does Leftovers outweigh the immediate 25% recovery of Sitrus Berry?


    Long story short, Leftovers is better when Sitrus Berry if you get 5 turns of recovery from it, worse if you get <4 turns, and the same if you get 4 turns. Therefore, Leftovers is better on Pokemon that usually survive at least 5 turns on the field.

    Qualities that are more likely to survive this many turns include:

    1) Bulk. This is a given

    2) Typing. Bulk by itself mean nothing if you're weak to many types. For example, Terrakion on the basis of stats is a bulky attacker, but this bulk is undermined by its horrid defensive typing (alas it's excellent offensively).

    3) Pokemon that abuse turn-stalling strategies. Protect is the obvious example, but it can be amplified with other moves like Substitute. Leech Seed + Protect/Substitute is another strategy. Boosting defensive stats, like with Cosmic Power, also stall for time. Calm Mind and Quiver Dance are also included, but to a lesser extent.

    4) Keeping your Pokemon on the field during turns in which it won't be taking much damage, and keeping your Pokemon off the field when it would otherwise take significant damage. This is the most complex quality, but perhaps the most important. For example, Cresselia takes little damage from most attacks and you will commonly find turns with which it takes little damage against both opponents, even if they both double target it. Cress may only be taking about 20% damage per turn, and as long as it continues to remain like this, she will easily make good use of Leftovers. But if you keep Cress in against Volcarona, it can be 2HKOed by Bug Buzz. Leftovers won't help if Cress takes two hits from Bug Buzz, but Sitrus Berry may make Cress avoid the 2HKO. However, this calc is much less relevant if you switch Cress out.

    This quality depends not only on the Pokemon itself, but its teammates. For example, it's a lot more risky to switch Cress out of Volcarona's Bug Buzz if your entire team is 2HKOed by it. It's much easier to do so if you have a Heatran on the bench, ready to switch in. Generally, teams with bulkier Mons and greater defensive type synergy create more opportunities for switching that lead to keeping Pokemon on the field during times when they can take less damage. HO teams, however, won't get nearly as many opportunities.

    Similarly, if you have teammates that can lessen the damage that your Pokemon takes, Leftovers becomes a better choice. For example, teams utilizing dual screens, and a Ferorthorn on a rain team to protect it from Fire-type attacks (and it still takes Water-type attacks well)

    This also extends to the purpose that Cress carries for the team. If your Cress has TR, and you're using a TR team that needs TR active to function, you may be more keen to keep Cress in to take the Bug Buzz to set up TR. If you have a Dusclops waiting on the bench, you may decide to switch out Cress to Dusclops to take the Bug Buzz and then eat a Heat Wave as it sets up TR. If Cress is your only TR user, you have to weigh up the cons between trying to keep your precious Cress fit as long as possible or to set up TR and risk losing her early.


    Generally, Pokemon that make good use of Leftovers have a combination of these factors and not just one. For example, Musharna is bulky, but it generally lacks any time-stalling moves (Protect included), and if it's used on a hyper-offensive TR team, it may not get many opportunities to switch out.

    To give examples of good Leftover uses, look at my team. It is a bulky team with great type synergy, so switching out is generally quite easy with this team. Cresselia is very bulky, and I have teammates that can easily take all the attacks that it is weak too; consequently, I found Leftovers better than Sitrus Berry.

    My Heatran is bulky, is part of a FWG core, and has Substitute + Protect for time stalling. Cress has Skill Swap and Sunny Day to remove two of its 3 weaknesses, and Gastrodon helps alleviate its Water-type weakness too. Once again, I found Leftovers > Sitrus Berry usually.

    My Gastrodon is bulky, has only 1 weakness and can time stall well too with Recover + Stockpile, especially if TR is up. It is a good Leftovers user. However, I'd say Leftovers is only marginally better than Sitrus (on a different team with which switching is harder, I might prefer Sitrus). It is prone to double attacks and receiving heavy damage before it gets KOed, especially considering that it lacks Protect. If it takes a Grass-type attack before I get a Stockpile boost, it probably won't survive.


    Finally, it should be said that Leftovers is never always better than Sitrus Berry and vice-versa. For example, I've had some battles in which Gastrodon has survived 10+ turns, but others in which it got KOed after its second turn and Sitrus Berry would have made it live another turn.
  15. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    This is going to be a bit long, but this discussion is too far off base to just read and ignore. Here goes...

    Volcarona is good, but not great. I have used it for over a year now, primarily with Hitmontop, and it is an excellent combo, but an experienced player can typically read it and will be prepared for it. Heatran is pretty bad, but saying it's "outclassed" by Volcarona implies they actually do something remotely similar. They don't. One is primarily defensive, the other is primarily offensive.

    It's sort of misleading for the community to see these posts, since you often imply that you are really experienced in this metagame, which isn't exactly true. I played you 4 times a few days ago. You were running a Shuckle, which you said was "pretty bad" and "just a test". When I said to stop using it because it really doesn't work, you told me to "chill" because it was "just for fun." If you're having fun just using those mons, awesome, keep using them, but don't start implying they're good because they're fun to use. Also, you said you'd "change the team", but you never ended up doing so. You also Guard Split my Amoonguss all four matches since I Rage Powdered, and never learned from that mistake. I will locate the battles if I get a chance for reference, but two you should remember (against Boof Boof Boof) and two maybe not so much (against no369852). After this, you mentioned Shuckle in the "surprisingly good" category after you never knocked out more than two Pokemon in any battle against me whilst using it.

    You're at least willing to explore specific Pokemon and dig into theory, which is cool. I think you can harness that better and start asking rather than asserting at this point in your practice. You seem enthusiastic as well, which will work for you in the long run. Don't lose that, hoping the last paragraph wasn't too harsh, but I wanted to get my point across here so that people don't start spamming Blaziken on the ladder and have to find out the hard way that it's really not a good Pokemon here. Work on harnessing your positive traits and using them to ask questions to help spark discussion rather than assert untrue things and create some turmoil.

    Even if you've been there, done that, you'll never stop learning things, as the metagame continually moves and expands. Sure, I've played doubles for a while and have sat on the top of the ladder since I started playing here, but I'm not really done learning yet. For example, I don't even want to say anything much here since it's really unclear as to if there are any major differences between VGC and Standard Doubles (which is a discussion that should be had after we let this metagame develop a bit more, since if it's nearly the same format, we should use the one already established, but nothing should be discussed yet, nad this is all besides the point), and it's also really unclear whether or not a few specific things that are theoretically better in Smogon Doubles than VGC are actually better or not. However, the standard, solid, bulky, powerful Pokemon will remain that way, and the Pokemon that are habitually weak and cannot take hits will continually be rather poor choices to use.

    I don't mean to sound uppity or demeaning as to upset anyone or boost myself up. I'm no saint, my conduct has been iffy and I've been short-tempered a bit on the simulator. We all have things to work on. I just want to address some things I saw here that I was originally really teed off about when I read it.

    Good luck out there battling.
  16. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    woahwoahwoah that's not even a decent team let alone a decent TR team. That's mah CHARIZARD team! Though I've only got to use Blast Burn once :(
  17. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I'm guessing this is one of your decent TR teams; the one I played against?

    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9300722

    It was a good match.
  18. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    [​IMG]

    (I am natc)

    Any team that synergises nicely can work in doubles.

    Smog doubles & VGC are two different metagames..

    The highest ranked pokemon on my team was #29 in the usage stats, Conkeldurr... (under that particular alt I only used the one team). The next highest ranked was Dusclops @ #69.

    My point is basically just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles. I don't enjoy standard teams and prefer trolly/different teams. I am assuming the initial usage stats were VGC influenced. The biggest difference I can think of between VGC and smog doubles is the time limit vs no turn limit.

    @ the Volc/Tran argument, Volcarona IS good with support.. but thats just based on my experiences, maybe you think differently. Heatran might be cool with certain strats but I personally haven't seen many yet, I like its potential to wall certain pokemon though. PS at the wide guard protecting from surf comment, hydro pump/scald have become common on rain now, much as stone edge is starting to build in popularity but as of now the only ground type moves I see are EQ and earth power and you can predict an earth power a mile away. I prefer fake out support for Volcarona over wide guard support and so running protect is essential if you'd like to use fake out support, wide guard support is a gamble as any decently backed stone edge will ohko volc!

    Personally I found stall a highly viable strategy in doubles as boosting is not as viable and resistances and bulk are probably more important in doubles than singles as you see a lot less outrages and such. What are opinions on using stall (or semi stall) teams.


    PPS: My Chansey + Shuckle is countered by:

    1. Taunt
    2. Leech seed/Seed flare
    2. Sleep powder
    3. Preventing set up (through rage powder as Braverius did or otherwise)

    And I am aware of that, but it doesn't necessarily make it a "useless" strat. I simply enjoyed trolling with it :P
  19. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    That's definitively a huge difference indeed, but the lack of item clause and the sleep class also add some oddity to the mix. As far as the extra pokemon available, Darkrai, Thundurus and Manaphy are interesting but most of them aren't as impressive.
  20. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    Lack of sleep clause barely does anything. All it does is artificially nerf Breloom and Amoonguss for no good reason other than to make up for bad teambuilding. Short but decent discussion on sleep clause can be found here if anyone is interested.
    Yeah, that's my main team. It's identical to my VGC team. I haven't bothered updating EVs for LV100, lack of item clause, to account for the ubers that are allowed in this format, lack of sleep clause, or the fact that you can use all six mons but it still works great imo! Taunt + Fake Out is a great way to stop a turn 1 Trick Room if it's something you don't need to overcommit on and reversing it is also great. One of these days I'll finally remember that Tornadus gets defiant XD That was a good game indeed!
  21. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    Even though I disagree that they're different (for recent evidence, see: Firestorm's post above, Crow380 at #15 getting there with his VGC team in less than 1 hour), I think we should hold off discussion on that topic here, since this isn't the thread to discuss it in. I was making a point of what/what not to discuss rather than wanting to bring that up, anyways.

    I do totally agree that you need synergy, though. For example, using 6 water types while spamming Surf and bending over backward to switch the useless-anyways-if-it-sits-on-the-field rain-inducing punching bag Politoed around is silly and will get you beat by any solid player. However, using 3 rain-dependent mons and 3 other solid Pokemon that can benefit from rain but do not depend on it (Escavalier, Thundurus, Heracross, and Amoonguss come to mind) can actually be legitimate, because the Pokemon in the back can support the rain Pokemon, benefit from rain being up, but function well outside of rain so you don't have to switch predictably in order to keep rain up, and serve as checks to its counters.

    A few things I still disagree on, since you don't have evidence for your claims against any high-tier teams yet:

    I used two of my VGC teams slammed together to get to the top. Never re-did spreads or anything. I found that replacing Heracross with Shaymin-S was decent, but not that great. Most of the legendaries allowed aren't spectacular, but things like Deoxys-Speed with Screens, Shaymin-S in general, and both permitted Kyurems are good ideas to be explored.

    That's fine, play what you have fun with, but I have no idea what this is getting at from a metagame analysis standpoint.


    And just to answer this briefly:
    Show Hide
    Both have the same time limit on a simulator.
  22. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    In the Volc/Heatran discussion, I did say that Volcarona was viable, if you read through the posts. That wasn't what was being contested. It's Heatran's viability. I do agree with you that Heatran's resistances are a huge point in why it's viable, along with Flash Fire, with both of these being able to carve out a niche for it. Anyways, I'm not gonna talk about it too much since most of what I have to say was said already in my previous posts, but Heatran isn't outclassed by Volcarona, as they both have seperate functions (ik you didn't say that it was but that was what the discussion was about).

    In terms of stall's viability, I don't think stall is very viable. Double-targeting, spread moves, and the ability of a partner to take care of mons that would normally wall one pokemon all lend to making stall significantly less viable. I think that the closest you can get to stall is bulky offense. If you don't have a way of dishing out damage when you tank a hit, then you're just going to get smashed through the next turn, since you won't be dealing notable damage due to the decreased viability of entry hazards (although SR can work well) and the fact that your moves will be hitting for a lot lower damage than their moves You could try Toxic-stalling, but usually trying that ends up with your Pokemon dead due to getting torn through by the opposition, since that takes way too long to work.
  23. Crow350

    Crow350

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    Aw dang I got mentioned so I guess that means I have to give my input now, huh?

    Ok first things first: I know this isn't VGC. But seriously guys, when I can take what I consider a bad VGC team and use it successfully perhaps you need to reconsider if there's really a reason to have Smogon Doubles. Now this may be to the tier being relatively new and the majority of players haven't figured out doubles yet and I get that comes with time. I just think you might want to re-evaluate the tier in a couple months if VGC players are still wrecking with their teams.

    And now for some random other observations:
    I'm also of the opinion that sleep clause is completely pointless. I see an Amoonguss or Breloom and just don't care. I can sleep something and not have to worry about it anymore. And it's not like sleep is even that big of a deal; I have five other pokemon to deal with the opponent. I guess my point here is that sleep is much more devastating in VGC and we function quite well without sleep clause, so what's the point of having it here?

    I'm a big fan of evasion clause. Although it could be up for debate if this clause is necessary, not having to deal with (for lack of a better term) that bullshit is fantastic.

    Bulk is still king, stall doesn't work.

    Trick room is for the most part an autopilot team. Very rarely do you actually have to think when using TR here.

    I'm see a lot of championing of lesser used pokemon. Imo trying gimmicks and subpar pokemon in a developing metagame isn't healthy for it. Do it once you have a solid meta and can actually say "just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles."

    Anyway, falling asleep writing this. If it's not deleted for talking about VGC perhaps more to come later.
  24. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    It's a format not a tier!

    I swear to god Crow I'll slap you when I see you!!! >:( >:( >:(
  25. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,859
    lol, I think PS is the only thing that actually uses the word "format" to describe metas. Even PO calls them tiers.
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