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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Dia

    Dia

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    I beg to digress. In VGC, Follow me support was almost a requirement for me to set up a trick room. Here, it was useless to the point where people originally targeted my FM user instead of reuniclus.
    For anyone interested, this is my team:
    === Untitled 1 ===

    Protoplasm (Reuniclus) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Shadow Ball
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast

    Chimahiko (Infernape) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Blaze
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Grass Knot
    - Vacuum Wave
    - Focus Blast

    Vito (Honchkrow) (M) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch
    - Superpower
    - Roost

    Bill (Porygon2) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Download
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Recover
    - Tri Attack
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Fluffy (Shaymin-Sky) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    - Protect

    Alpha (Nidoking) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Ice Beam
    - Protect
    Nidoking, Infernape, and Porygon 2 are very recent additions to my team, and they should do well theoretically. However, theoretically, communism works, so I don't really know how well they'll do. Originally, this team was designed for VGC, but I lost all respect for that metagame when I learned evasion was allowed there.
  2. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    All you're saying is, "You need Follow Me in VGC because, in general, the players are better." That doesn't stop support to get up Trick Room from being important in this format in cases where the player you're playing is half decent.

    Sleep is always incredibly powerful but limiting the number is an artificial way of taking care of it. Your team should be taking care of it IMO. There's no way to put more than one Pokemon to sleep at a time with Dark Void banned and you have two Pokemon on the field along with an assortment of items and moves that can help (Lum Berry, Safeguard, Taunt, etc). With Sleep Clause around I find sleep to not be too big a deal as I can just sacrifice my least important member and then not worry about it again.

    Trick Room is a great way to deal with Trick Room. Not only can you reverse it as soon as you've taken care of whoever set it down, you can also use it to control speed when you have Pokemon slower than your opponent.
  3. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Scizor is #10, Sableye is #51, huh?
    Also lol Charizard was like .2% away from OU
  4. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    whatthefont will fix this injustice.
  5. DoesntKnowHowToPlay

    DoesntKnowHowToPlay

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    The hilarious part about Charizard's usage is that it's at #59 in the normal stats and #41 in the 1337 stats. It's certainly far better than in Singles, thanks to the relative scarcity of Stealth Rock and ability to melt two mons at once with Helping Hand Solar Power Heat Waves, but I'm still very surprised to see it higher than the likes of Genesect and Keldeo.
  6. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    This is all Firestorm's fault.
  7. Dia

    Dia

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    Why should I use a poke that is useless in 9/10 of my battles? If that means assuming the other players are not good, so be it.
  8. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    If it has slow speed, but not SUPER slow speed. Then you can use it in every battle. Set up TR against normal teams or get rid of TR against full-blown TR teams.
    This would work well with Heatran on the team because Heatran is outslowed by opposing TR teams, so you get rid of TR in that scenario, but it is outsped by regular teams so you set TR up in that situation.
    I don't think the idea is to just run a TR user to only counter TR. You counter TR plus give your Tyranitar, Amoonguss, etc a boost.
  9. polop

    polop
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    Well I would say this was the case before this year, where Fake Out gains the priority of Follow Me. Imprison + TR is still > Follow Me, and if you can OHKO the Follow Me user in one move and then Taunt / OHKO the TR user in another then it really doesn't matter... (ex: Tornadus-I + some Taunt user vs. Amoongus + Cresselia, Amoongus can't use Rage Powder as it will get OHKOed by Flying Gem Acrobatics and Cresselia will be stopped by the incoming Taunt unless Mental Herb (unless flying gem resist berry but)).

    Mental Herb I will admit was a boon to TR and support mons in general though.

    Can someone delete the random spam.

    I forgot to say this earlier but Iron Ball toed, Iron Ball TTar, and Iron Ball Ninetales are EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO TRICKROOM X_X. They manage to underspeed everything and go first ;_;, which causes shenanigans in whether or not setting TR is worth it.
  10. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    "Doubles is playable?" I thought to myself. "I better go do that RIGHT NOW."
    "Stealth Rock is uncommon?" I thought to myself. "I know one loved mon who hates rocks"

    So I decided that it was indeed time for Charizard to enter the fray, and find out if floating pebbles really were the only thing that was keeping him away. I am new to this meta, so my conception of what should work is still a little shakey, but here's what I use:

    Charizard: Solar Power, Sitrus Berry
    4Hp, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
    -Heatwave
    -Solar Beam
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Protect

    Latios: Levitate, Heat Rock
    252 Hp, 252 Spe
    -Sunny Day
    -Tailwind
    -Heal Pulse
    -Protect

    Charizard protects the first turn while latios uses Tailwind. Next turn Latios uses Sunny day and Charizard starts spamming. Since you are faster than the opponent, and no priority move has the edge on charizard, there are ample chances to use heal pulse on it. The protect on Latios is because... well that's my filler move right now. The main reason I question this strategy is because heal pulse is uncommon... so perhaps I'm wasting my time with that and could be using a better move? If heal pulse is silly, I could give it an attack, or swap latios for something like Togekiss/Volcarona who can perform the same setup and draw moves with follow me/rage powder. Maybe I could use something bulkier, like Dragonite, Skarmory, Mandibuzz or Gliscor, or use Murkrow who has access to taunt.
  11. Level 51

    Level 51 [17:37:18] boTTT: (Private to @Level 51) ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ
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    Terribly sorry for my inactivity, I've been (and continue to be) really busy with IRL and Smog work. While I'm here though I'm just gonna advertise this mini-tournament I'm hosting for Doubles. I'd love if there were at least 32 or so people (which I think is an achievable goal seeing the activity this thread experiences), but the more the merrier! ^_^
  12. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

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    I'm sorry, but the main evidence this is a strategy doomed to fail is that it requires latios and charizard to consistently be on the field at the same time, and the setup is absurdly long. What if a hitmontop fakes out your Latios t1? What if someone sets Trick Room? what if the opponent has a Heatran (which you can't even hit, hardly). To steal from my smog article (sorry, shameless self-promotion)
    Basically, any strategy that requires two pokemon doing specific things on the field at the same time will fail—if they can interact in neat ways, good; if they MUST interact in neat ways, bad. *COUGH* terracott *COUGH*
  13. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    I share Mr.E's opinion on this, Conkeldurr is just too good to ditch it for a Fake Out or slightly stronger attack that nerfs you.

    Also, Pocket, I used to use Guts to both avoid burn attack drop and other status, paralysed, even making you TR-faster can hax you to death and sleep is basically an OHKO move. However, I'm now using Iron Fist Life Orb Conkeldurr and I must say I'm happy and impressed with it. Btw, is there any chance to see one day Doubles analyses? Because I'd love to write one or two, lol.

    I made a new TR team and it's doing well, by now I've won about 12 matches in a row, no loses yet. As you can see, I'm using Eggy's Kyube:
    TR team (open)

    Cresselia (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Helping Hand
    - Safeguard

    Heatran @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 2 Spd
    - Eruption
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    Slowbro @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Regenerator
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 244 HP / 156 SAtk / 108 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Scald
    - Psyshock
    - Protect

    Reuniclus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 172 HP / 28 Def / 252 SAtk / 56 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Psyshock
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    Conkelderp (Conkeldurr) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Iron Fist
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Drain Punch
    - Rock Slide
    - Mach Punch
    - Detect

    Kyurem-Black @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Teravolt
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earth Power
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Protect

    I chose the best spread for Heatran to have HP Ice 70 (30 Spe), and the 0 IVs on attack on non attackers is to have the least confusion damage possible.

    Regarding usage, it's not surprising that Politoed reigns thanks to Swift Swim and even Trick Room water teams, which wreck, but I thought Cresselia would be the top 1.
  14. Jean mi

    Jean mi

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  15. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    The 1850 compared to standard stats are interesting.
    Gastrodon is #1 for good users apparently. Kyurem-Black is high up, DrizzleSwim is high up, Ttar+Exca, Ferrothorn, Cresselia+Musharna.
    Three that interest me are Slowking, Chandelure and Heracross have a high differential.
    So high ranked players use these more? Slowking is obviously for Trick Room+Regenerator and special bulk. I guess that makes sense over Slowbro since you can pair it with Intimidate. Chandelure and Heracross hit pretty hard, does Heracross get any support options like Chandelure?
  16. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    I see. Well that's annoying. I suppose I'll have to apply more tcg style strategies here then. (not bad annoying. Just new annoying.)

    Also, how viable are trapping moves here? Moves like Whirlpool are garbage in singles due to low base power, and by the time the move is fired off you are already facing the wrong Mon. Here though, a trapper can stay in while the partner switches out. I suppose the trapping and the switch would have to occur on the same turn or it is too slow. Basically a way of deciding who the switch in will be fighting. It could make keeping Tyranitar in at all a potential mistake.
  17. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Further on the topic of the week, there was a Smogon Doubles teambat on #pokemon with a theme of no weather, and since both teams predicted the other to use TR, there were many different strategies employed to try and check/counter TR.

    Team 1 used things like Scizor to heavily damage the Psychic types that primarily set up TR as well as a Roar Latios set to phaze out TR setters before they could use TR. Team 2 used Imprison Chandelure to prevent opposing TR setters from using the move TR as well as a Scizor of their own. Both teams also emplyed Fake Out support from Hitmontop, which would let them prevent opposing mons from setting up TR first turn.

    Team 2's team was also a semi-TR team, employing 1 TR setter and various mons that can work well in TR, but don't need it to function (such as Kyurem-B). The battle shows the viability of such a teamstyle in that it was able to adjust itself to various scenarios when the time called for it, and was able to function in many different conditions.

    While TR can be difficult to full on counter, there are many ways to be creative and check it and have effective responses to it that don't necessarily weigh down the team. One can simply tweak movesets to help against TR teams without having to have a dedicated TR counter, and the teambat was a nice example of that.

    Exeggutor vs. Pwnemon (Teambat Replay)

    Teams 1 & 2:
    Show Hide

    Volcarona (F) @ Charti Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Bug Buzz
    - Heat Wave
    - Quiver Dance
    - Protect

    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Wide Guard
    - Close Combat
    - Helping Hand

    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 SDef
    Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Rest
    - Helping Hand
    - Icy wind

    Latios (M) @ Dragon Gem
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    -Roar
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Hidden power [Fire]

    Scizor (M) @ Metal Coat
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Protect

    Rotom-W @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Protect

    _________________________________

    Chandelure @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Imprison
    - Trick Room
    - Heat Wave
    - Shadow Ball

    Hitmontop @ fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Fake Out
    - Wide Guard
    - Helping Hand

    Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Dragon Claw
    - Outrage
    - Rock Slide

    Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Thunderbolt

    Scizor @ Life orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Feint
    - U-turn
    - Superpower

    Thundurus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect
  18. Dia

    Dia

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    I don't counter TR lol. Im talking about togetic, who cannot set up TR. Did you read the post with my team?
    Joim, why do you carry three mons with TR? I mean, battles are pretty quick, and if your TR runs out, I'd just use a cleaner. I don't mean to criticize you, I just thought it would be different to see different TR styles.
  19. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    I have three TR setters just in case I have to switch one or one is early killed and my TR is Protect stalled. I've found it useful, despite Kyu-b being able to work outside TR, and Conkeldurr to some extent with Mach Punch.
  20. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast ★KyleCole: god trick room is for fags
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    One Pokemon I've been using pretty well in Trick Room is Gigalith.
    [​IMG]
    Rock-type
    85/135/130/60/70/25
    Gigalith @ Life Orb / Passho Berry
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast / Explosion
    - Superpower / Explosion

    It does need support from Tyranitar or Hippowdon, but they're both slow too so it's not too much of a burden. Gigalith is pretty much a wrecking ball, with Brave Sand Force boosted STAB Rock Slide hitting both opponents. Earthquake is another Sand Force boosted spread move that hits Pokemon like Heatran and Metagross harder. I used Rock Blast to have a single-target move that didn't have bad accuracy (Rock Slide has something like 52 BP in doubles...), and Superpower is for things like Scrafty and Hydreigon. Explosion is an incredibly powerful alternative if you're willing to sack Gigalith.
  21. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    Sandstorm teams, TR or not, have been proving their worth lately to me.
    For either type of Sandstorm team, Cradily is a beast. With a combination of Curse, Stockpile, Recover, Toxic an attacking move, and a friend's Safeguard (btw Whimsicott has Prankster Safeguard, Sandslash has Sand Rush Safeguard), it can stall any team to no end. The Sandstorm boost makes its SpD sky rocket high, making it impossible to defeat it, unless you want its companion free to damage you.

    We also know Gastrodon is a beast against Rain teams, it takes no damage in sandstorm and it alone can counter Rain teams with ease, helping your Sandstorm team shine.

    Mandibuzz is not seen much, but it has Overcoat and acts as a very decent Special wall, taking even super effective attacks, Roosting the damage back, and being able to use Whirlwind too.

    By the way, I'm trying a Sun Trick Room team to some success, the only thing I find myself lacking sometimes is a second Trick Roomer, but it also works as anti-TR and anti-Rain:

    Sun TR team (open)

    Cresselia (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Psychic
    - Helping Hand
    - Safeguard

    Victini @ Passho Berry
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - V-create
    - Bolt Strike
    - Brick Break
    - Zen Headbutt

    Ninetales @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 2 Spd
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Energy Ball
    - Protect

    Heatran @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 2 Spd
    - Eruption
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Protect

    Ludicolo @ Absorb Bulb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Giga Drain
    - Surf
    - Fake Out
    - Protect

    Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power
    - Recover
  22. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    1500s now... I think I'm starting to get the hang of this. Ganted, the majority of the players I run across seem to have relatively low ratings.

    So I looked up Pokemon that learned fake out and priority moves, and had decent bulk. I found this guy:
    [​IMG]
    Dewgong: Hydration
    Hp:90 Attack:70 Deffense:80 SpA:70 Sp.Def:95 Spe:70
    - Fake Out
    - Aqua Jet
    - Growl/Icy Wind
    - Rest

    No, not the best but I thought it was interesting that a total NU like Dewgong had a move pool so conducive to this meta.
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Joim, interesting teams - why are you running Rock Slide on Conkeldurr, though? If I were using Iron Fist Conkeldurr I would probably make the most out of the boost by going Ice Punch > Rock Slide. I guess it's a matter of preference, really. Has the change been working better for you?

    For Heatran, I always prefer doubling up on its powerful STAB moves - you really don't need coverage when its fiery barrages are punching through resist mons like paper. I personally use Eruption AND Heat Wave (over HP Ice) - Eruption when Heatran is at 67+% health, and Heat Wave for below 67% health. This way, Tran is always hitting like a truck! I also prefer Sitrus Berry on Heatran, because the 25% recovery can put Tran back into Eruption-spam range.

    If you're looking for an additional TR setter, go with Dusknoir @ Mental Herb or Dusclops @ Eviolite! I've paired my Eruptran with one of these ghosts, and it hasn't disappointed me yet. voodoo pimp also uses the same combo, so it must be good! Here's the set:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Dusknoir @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Sunny Day
    - Disable / Will-O-Wisp

    Dusknoir's movepool and bulk really makes up for a great TR supporter. It has TR, Helping Hand, and Sunny Day, like Cress to really power up Heatran's STAB move in the sun to explosive levels. However, it also learns Disable, which is nice to prevent that one move on opponent's side that could hurt Heatran, prolonging its rampage. Will-O-Wisp is also nice utility move to burn the opponent's physical sweepers as well as activating Heatran's Flash Fire. Sunny Day + Helping Hand + Flash Fire boost = FIRE OF ANNIHILATION XD

    voodoo pimp uses Dusclops for the considerable boost in bulk, so you may very well go that route if you have a way around Taunt.

    Also if I'm using Victini, I'd give it Charcoal, Fire Gem, or Life Orb to further boost its nasty V-create. I'd give it Protect over Zen Headbutt, imo.

    Ludicolo seems out of place on a Sun team. If you want anti-rain mon to pair with Gastrodon, I'd use Ferrothorn (which also works nicely in TR) or Latios / Yache Grass-Type. I think your team already fares well against Rain even without Ludicolo imo. Maybe add Dusknoir in this slot?

    @ Arcticblast - I've seen you play with a sand TR team employing Gigalith - but Idk... It compounds the sand team's weakness to Grass-, Ice-, and Water-type moves, which is undesirable. I don't think Sand teams really have many TR sweeper options without complicating this problem.

    I've witnessed a mighty semi-TR Sand team that employs Cress to set up TR and Tyranitar to abuse TR. Then it has Excadrill to sweep everything in sand outside of TR. That's probably as best as you can go. Maybe Metagross / Escavalier / Scizor and Kyurem-Black as beneficiaries of TR, but Gigalith is mehh, imo ;x
  24. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    I'm going to make a couple posts here just to outline some stuff that needs to be addressed. Talked to Pocket/Pwnemon beforehand about doing this. Turned out a bit more differently than I originally planned, but still good stuff to read and consider.

    Before I start, definitions!

    Format: The rules, clauses, bans, etc. of a specific type of Pokemon battles.
    Metagame: The dominant, defining strategies that develop and evolve due to the format.

    It's been noted and discussed for a while that metagame development is the best way to grow the playerbase and attract new players. So, in order to develop the metagame, it's important to study other doubles metagames (in this case, there's only one more developed metagame) in order to get a better understanding of where this might be headed.

    I'm really into VGC, have competed for two years now and have had some good success recently. There are other players who play this tier that have the same background, and they seem to be using their same teams from VGC and doing well here. What does this imply? Two things, as I see it:

    1) The metagame is not as developed, and "teams from the future!" are winning. A lot.
    2) Doubles, regardless of some format tweaks, will always feature the same key concepts to doing well, such as team synergy, high-tier in-battle decisions, good team sustainability, and lots of spread moves.

    The most successful players in any format or metagame are those who strive to win, which, for those players, is what they find the most fun. Others find using more uncommon teams and strategies as a better way to have fun, even though they do not win as much. VERY rarely, these uncommon teams and strategies work successfully.

    People have a natural tendency to try to do their own thing, create their own identity, fight the power, rah rah. In a format and metagame that are mostly developing, it's tempting to try "different" things. However, back to my point before, to try different things and be successful at the same time, you have to understand how those different things can work based on what the current threats are. So since this is something that I've only seen briefly posted once about, I've outlined the threats that are extremely prominent in VGC and how they're impacted *for sure* by this current format (if I don't know for sure yet, I left them where they'd be in VGC. Only a couple I know for sure, and none of them are banned in VGC). It's not so that you can decipher a cute rationalization of why your team works due to the differences of formats (which is the primary reason as to why there has been some animosity towards this format); it's so that you understand what a metagame with years of development has come to, and how that metagame will mostly become this format's metagame.

    When Pocket started this format, it was originally pointed out that it should be VGC's format in order to help form more of a following for double battles. However, it was decided that it would be best to simply make this a more Smogon-esque, so it was introduced as a slightly different type of format. It was a rather fun idea to open up the can of worms right away isntead, but it did cause more of a growth stunt of the metagame. Understanding how the game develops and what the set standards are (or will obviously become) is what needs to happen BEFORE you start countering the threats that you believe shouldn't be threats. The metagame should stay as is now, no need to change any of the format. However, the impact the differences between this format and VGC have on the game are more minimal than people want to believe right now, and until the threats from VGC are actually established first and grown up next to the threats from Standard Doubles, we can't figure out what

    I encourage you to try the Pokemon listed under Tier 1 and Tier 2 more often than you try the other ones in Tiers 3-5. It's better to get practice with what you'll see more often as you learn, as that will help you not only learn how doubles works, but how the main threats in it work as well. Typically, as the game moves along, the vast majority of these Pokemon will pick up in usage and stay right where they are. Many will move up and down a tiny bit from time to time, and a select few will make major swings, but that will more than likely be dictated by the format's changes and tweaks.

    That is why it's intriguing for a VGC player like myself to check this format out. I'm curious to see what effect testing the format will have on the competitive potential of the game, and if there is a much more ideal format out there for doubles yet to be discovered. It's a cool concept that the players can test things and see what makes the game the most fun and competitive at the same time. That's what I encourage you to embrace about this- look to taking what knowledge we already have and seeing how it can be applied and where it can go.



    On the note of the threats list, you can locate it HERE in Spreadsheet form.



    How this works, and what to do and what not to do (READ BEFORE REFERENCING OR PAY DEARLY):
    -Each mon is listed in a tier-style. I hate tier lists. I wanted to avoid this. However, this is probably the best way to explain how often things are used and how viable they are.
    -All of the mons in the first two tiers are VGC-legitimate. I think Toxicroak and Blissey were the only two that I felt are not worth a damn in Doubles compared to VGC, so I placed them a tier lower than they usually would be.
    -The incorporation of the legendary Pokemon along with testing of the format's impact is what is going to change this list in the future.
    -The legendary Pokemon are listed at the bottom, the ones that aren't allowed in VGC, anyways. This is solely my opinion and observation, and I will admit that unlike the VGC-legal mons which I feel are almost totally optimally ordered, these are not even close to confidently placed. This is simply from my own observation and testing, which isn't as reliable as my own observation and testing over ten times the amount of time plus dozens of other peoples' as well (referencing the VGC mons). So take the legendaries with a grain of salt, they require tons of testing still (I highly encourage testing them on all sorts of standard teams to see how they do.)
    -DO NOT argue about how I have placed the mons without providing adequate evidence supporting a counter-argument (explained below). The discussion of this is not the intention of this spreadsheet, and baselessly arguing about it would be achieving the wrong purpose of this. If that starts, I'll be doing two things: sternly reminding you to read this post thoroughly, and asking a moderator to end that discussion promptly. The idea of this is to give you an idea of how the metagame is using the format implications alone with VGC's current threats, minus Trick Room threats being more prominent for the most part. This will change obviously as we see more clearly what the extra legendaries, clauses, and Pokemon limits affect, but for the time being, at least understand the former threats by either watching battle videos of them (can find these on YouTube, Nugget Bridge, or possibly even on the VGC ladder) or try them out for size.
    If you DO post a critique of a Pokemon's placement here, to get me to read it, you need to show the following evidence to make sure we have some quality control:
    -3 battle videos of the Pokemon / strategy doing well + winning, two of them against players rated 1750+
    -5 Damage calculations against top 20 mons that back up your explanation
    -At least one battle video against a 1750+ player showing a weak spot + losing
    -Show a team that the Pokemon fits on
    -Ask a question (or two, or three, or...) to promote healthy discussion


    That's all I ask. That way, we can all see how it works, and find a way to evaluate it and use it if possible!


    Now, onto the walls of fame and shame. These are both intended to have a bit of humor interjected while primarily either showing examples of good posts (WoF) or bad posts (WoS). Don't take anything personally, just observe the lesson behind each.

    Finally, if you're curious behind the rationale of one of these posts on the walls of fame/shame, just ask away and I'll do my best to describe what you need to know.

    Here goes!
  25. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    119
    This is pretty solid, it just straight up eliminates a lot of gimmicks.



    Yup.



    Good tip for anyone doing calcs. Spread moves are reduced to 75% of power if the opponent has two Pokemon out.



    I feel exactly the same way, an added perk of trying this meta for me.



    This post gets so many good points across. Well said.



    Exactly. Cress is flexible and moderately unpredictable at times, which makes it glue-like along with its awesome base stats and utility.



    Yup.



    READ THIS BEFORE EVER ARGUING SOMETHING HERE EVER. This is golden. High five @ Audiosurfer



    Brute force is the most effective TR counter, so having Rage Powder is a great way to ensure you get a speed advantage for a few turns. Just need to decide if a 4 turn speed advantage is worth the amount of damage the Rage Powder/Follow Me mon takes.



    This is how you explain an idea: show that it can do something other than using your emotions. These are excellent damage calculations that show calculations on Pokemon that are relevant to the discussion. Awesome stuff here.



    More powerful than Sleep Orb.



    Yup. Watching, observing, and asking questions is the best way to learn.



    Feint is a great idea. Not a fan of putting something like this here, but this is a really constructive idea, shows some great thought process. People like to Protect to "stall out" Trick Room, so why not Feint them and make them pay? Great call. Give it a test.



    This just gets placed here for the laugh. Nothing more.



    Good call. That's the best way to get weather back up, and good observation in that situation!



    This is refreshing after seeing the Blaziboners all over before. Also, great question to guide discussion.



    True. I have a trophy to prove this ;)



    Yeah, it's a gimmick. A strong gimmick, but still...it's too reliant on certain things happening or not happening to work consistently well enough. Good call.



    Yup.



    Elbow dropping that conversation was necessary. This post did said elbow dropping.



    Good review of those two.



    Another insanely good post. Read it, it can only help.



    Yup.



    This comment needs to be featured, because this is exactly what my gripe was too. It's critically constructive and to the point.
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