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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    It works, sure, but how often? That was my friend, by the way, who was in Skype with me at the time, and he was totally messing around with that team. He obviously understands its limitations, but wanted to see how many people he could actually beat with it. Turned out he won 61% of his battles by the end of the night, but that is 1) not a very good number if you want to call it a legitimate team, and 2) due to him playing pretty bad players while being a pretty experienced player himself. He’s been able to get top 50 on the ladder easily with a very standard, solid team, so it says a lot about how much the team was actually holding him back. He was also tired out of his mind that night and playing on autopilot, which was okay since that team seriously either instaloses or instawins at team preview. That’s not a stretch, it’s true. If anything has Priority, Fake Out + taunt or sleep, or Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song, he INSTANTLY loses since his other Pokemon have nothing but 1 pretty bad move each.

    Basically two lessons: one, gimmicks are not reliable and require good matchups rather than good playing, and two, if something is winning a few battles but in general not doing that well, or just winning a couple in a row and making you feel good, you can’t prop it up. Make it a goal to find and offer solid evidence so that you don’t accidentally misdirect other players (or yourself). Simply giving bad things a lot of pumping up and asserting that you know what you’re doing at the same time will understandably mislead newer players.

    If you have fun using gimmicks, go for it, use them. But please, do not come back and state that they’re “viable” and “very good” in the thread because they won a battle against a certain team archetype. It needs to do well against the vast majority of teams to be good. Having fun and using them for fun is one thing, stating that they’re able to be viable and used consistently, however, is incorrect, and extremely misleading to boot.

    Finally, if you want to post how your team works, you should know what it does and be able to explain this to other players by general rationale backed by good damage calculations and good battle examples. For example on how to show your team is legitimate, check this RMT by Darkmalice.



    Just some other instances I saw of this type of thing happening...
    Show Hide
    (Stall is not at all viable in doubles, never has been, and nothing in the new format changes implies that it will ever be. Two mons attacking rather than one is the biggest problem. Setup moves mean nothing, double damage for three turns is better than a setup move and two turns of attacking. You also need tons of evidence to support this train of thought, much less assert it.)



    (Its typing is often considered its bane because of fire, flying, psychic, and ice weakness, fire and ice being extremely common. It has fire weakness, so how can you say it walls SUN TEAMS? Ice Beams and Flamethrowers/Fire Blasts/Heat Waves are more than “occasional”, and I’ve never seen a Sludge Bomb from a team that actually threatened me yet in over 250 battles. None of those moves are occasional. Technician allows Breloom to actually do damage and use its better stat and typing layout, its attack. Its defenses are far too poor to have it bulky, SQUIRTLE has higher base special defense...without eviolite, and also has less type weaknesses. Finally, be sure you identify exactly what you are trying to wall, and do damage calculations and show them to help people understand if it actually works. Also be honest and point out calcs that DON’T help its cause as well, since people need to know both pros and cons to succeed with a more specialized Pokemon such as the one you’re advertising.)



    (That’s my Kingdra. And Swift Swim in Trick Room makes Substitute totally useless. I never brought Kingdra to beat TR.)



    (It almost always has Psyshock, not Psychic, and very rarely has screens. Only seen two Cresselias with even one screen in this tier since beginning.)



    (Observations are fine and often fun to read, but make sure you clearly state that they’re observations instead of asserting things based on a few weeks’ worth of play...)




    (Then you haven’t ever faced an even half-decent player using one...I’ll show you one if you want.)



    SHAAAAME

    (Sidenote: don’t call people names, especially potentially offensive ones, openly. I know you’re totally messing around because you’re friends, but other people might just think it’s okay anytime...sadly :l)

    Actually I saw this too when running Perish Trap...and lost to it... so I advocate myself for the Wall of Shame. I also called the person a scrub. Twice. :l



    It needs at least 168 Special Attack with Modest Nature and Grass Gem to OHKO a standard Tyranitar in Sand. That means it can’t outspeed neutral stat 120s (base 100s) or can’t survive important hits, such as Specs Politoed Ice Beam. It’s a pretty awful mon, honestly, and is outclassed by Serperior, Tangrowth, and a lot of other mono Grass types. It wasn’t even used more than 1% of the time in VGC 2011 when it was one of the only Grass-Type Pokemon available...:l



    Broken as in cannot work properly ever? That makes sense. I thought that’s what you meant until the second part where you made hilariously Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-tested, Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-disapproved statements. Also, evidence for this please.



    Politoed has awful base attack, a movepool of pretty poor moves, and is never the thing attacking inside of Rain that is the real offensive threat. I’ve noticed people piling my Politoed as my Kingdra rips right through their team and wonder what the heck they did that for. I’ve been running bulky support (Icy Wind / Helping Hand) Politoed rather than flat out attacking...and have reached the top of the ladder with this Politoed and stayed there for over 3 weeks. Even the offensive Politoeds are not scary, since they rarely outspeed and OHKO a well-EV’d mon that’s actually threatening. The ONLY reason toed is used is because of Drizzle. If it did not have Drizzle, it would be utterly useless, even if Rain was in play.





    Also, things that are shameful that belong here:
    -Pressing the Toxic button
    -Hi Health Loss Kick
    -Eeveelution teams
    -Gimmicks that instalose to common Pokemon
    -Double Protecting turn 1
    -Protecting when you’re inevitably going to lose
    -Fake Out + Protect
    -Rage Powder + Protect, simply when you thought it couldn’t get worse
    -Monotype teams





    So, just a quick recap of things that can be improved
    ~ Don’t mislead people. This sort of goes with backing up your claims, but don’t overhype something that isn’t winning the VAST majority of the time (75%+ as a benchmark). Make sure if you’re just posting thoughts you clearly state that it’s just a work in progress, but an interesting idea, rather than asserting it’s legendary and on a killing spree.

    ~ Back up your claims. I typically like to see, like I said in the first post, 3 solid wins and 5 solid damage calcs. Give me a reason to use it, and something to watch out for as well (add another 2-3 damage calcs and another battle replay or two to prove your case) so I know whether or not it will fit on my team. This is really necessary when challenging the norm when claiming something. It also can catch a flaw before you post it to the world and look silly.

    ~ Try it before you hate it. And show that you tried it, if possible. Playing 1-2 months is not enough time to know everything, and rightfully so.

    ~ On that note, never be afraid to learn. Not even the 8 year veterans are done learning. There is always something you can take away from each battle, and never be afraid to accept a loss or accept defeat when it happens. Learn from it and bounce back.

    ~ Gimmicks rely on matchups. Even though that sounds good at first, it’s really not. Almost every single gimmick, if not every single one, either wins or loses or comes close to doing so in team preview. If you’re using it to have fun, that is fine, enjoy yourself! However, if you’re doing so, please do not suddenly change from fun-loving gimmick user to veteran doubles guru and post that the gimmick is amazing because it won a few excellent matchups. Also, since gimmicks are typically all-or-nothing teams, they don’t encourage good play, and battling against them is a drag since the result is often determined way before the end of the battle.

    ~ Things are still yet to be discovered. Not all discoveries will turn out to be gimmicks. Some may be viable strategies or sets.There are a lot of things we have to learn yet about how this format changes the doubles metagame that we already know of. Most of the things being posted on this wall of shame are ideas we mostly look back at a few months later and realize how far we’ve come and chuckle a little, like Firestorm said: “Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were!” We need to first understand what is currently working so that the development of the metagame is less painful. So touch up on your history! Use resources that more experienced doubles players are giving, such as players like Darkmalice, Firestorm, Makiri, Audiosurfer, and myself have listed in the forums (such as the spreadsheet linked above!).



    From transitioning from one game to the other, I have seen very minimal difference so far, in my opinion mostly because players are not yet settled into doubles, much less this format. I do believe that the mechanics of this format will influence the metagame down the road and encourage really developmental testing. We just have to get to that point first, and repeating the same general mistakes that we’ve already made years ago isn’t necessary. So first things first: understand what is already known. Make that your goal. After that’s achieved, we’ll naturally make the movement to exploration. If I can be of any assistance, let me know, I'm willing to help you with understanding this as much as I can.
  2. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    posting to say that i like where this is going as a long time doubles player, now that i haven't heard much serious mention of stealth rock in the last page or so. i WAS going to quote some people on this page, but i dont feel like it, so

    @arcticblast im sorry but what exactly does your gigalith do that ttar doesnt do already besides having a more powerful rock slide (which, by the way, would make you use MORE similar pokemon)? if i would ever use a gigalith again (which i haven't in a long time because i think very poorly of it) i'd try to differentiate it by using cutsap+explosion+sturdy, and as you said, rock blast to take care of nasty ol sub genies and the much more threatening topmoth combo. as it stands, your gigalith is redundant because it makes you pair it with pokemon that do the exact same thing; fire off powerful spread moves.

    @joim, i dunno what you plan to do with ludicolo or gastrodon if you're not facing a rain team. hell, i'd probably switch to power swap+overheat ninetales, if not get rid of it and make a manual sun team (simply because ninetales is p dumb!!!), leting cress do the heavy lifting and put more focus on beating tyranitar, who fucks you over nine ways till sunday if its holding a chople berry and is well guarded protects like a wimp every other turn, letting its partners deal with w/e your first line of defense is. ps, random mons with sunny day is the shit, comin from a guy who uses sunny day virizion his main gbu team. (hint: sunny day ludicolo)

    @post above me, this is the list to live by, really, though im guilty of hi jump kicking into protects when i use mienshao (which is surprisingly often, according to my spreadsheets........................). if you think simulator battles are bad, you should try gbu where you have to sit through the battles, animations and all. it's just embarrassing, really (though i can kinda excuse the free mode, but fuck anyone who battles me with an umbreon/espeon combo on ranking mode) ps, great all around post, and i think that advise applies to pretty much anything :)

    pps, sleep clause sucks in doubles. please tell me in the near future you'll be uh, suspect testing it (which is as good as unbanning it, really). just do what we vgc players have been doing since '10: kill the amoonguss/smeargle ON SIGHT, have contingency plans against trick room, and discover the true power of restochesto and lum berry.
  3. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Conkeldurr is working great :> Ice Punch would do more damage, but Rock Slide has both spread and flinch, which can be very useful. Wouldn't be the first time I lose due to a well used Protect or double protect, Rock Slide at least is going to damage one unprotected foe and maybe flinching it.

    I will try this, it's true that HP Ice only comes handy for Dragons when Heatran is at half its HP. The Chople Berry has been useful against Mach Punchs, though :p

    Dusclops and Dusknoir scare me because Taunt bait, but I could try them. I dislike Life Orb recoil since Victini is getting -def and -spdef, but Fire Gem V-create in sun sounds awesome, lol.

    Gastrodon fares well on its own, since it can deal decent damage and will get water attacks out of the way. I paired them up since they can spam Surf together, not only against rain, but as anti hail and anti sun teams too. It's right, Ninetales is a very crappy mon, but being able to set up your weather by simply switching it makes it a valuable asset. If there's no other weather, I just spam heat wave until shit dies.

    It was interesting to try new TR teams, I'm trying to get a good one that's a little different from your average TR team :p I'm noting the suggestions, a Latios or Ferrothorn could help not only with rain, but with other weathers too.
  4. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    [​IMG]

    Air balloon on a STARAPTOR? I don't even...
  5. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    I chose Dusclops and I'm glad.
    I'm now working on getting around Taunt, but leading with Dusclops and Heatran is amazing. It can't be Fake Out'd. First turn, TR + Protect. Second turn, Sunny Day and Eruption. Third turn, w-o-w and Eruption, then Helping Hand + Eruption what is still alive.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11489946
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11491377
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11491833
  6. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    dude, air balloon rotom-fan, now thats how it works
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    As i saw from your replays, Heatran has Eruption, Earth Power, and Protect. I am guessing Heat Wave as the fourth move, to use when you have lost a lot of life and Eruption is weak right? Also would replacing Sitrus Berry on Heatran for Charcoal be a good idea, as you still have Heat Wave to use when on low life?
  8. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Yeah, the next move is Heat Wave. Charcoal sounds nice, I'm trying Sitrus first as Pocket suggested to keep Eruption at higher attack more time, but I will definitely test more items to boost the power of the moves. Sometimes Sitrus can make the difference between a KO and not a KO, so it's important too :p
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    What about Beat Up + Terrakion with Rock Slide? Is this strategy viable and what is the best way to execute it? Scarf Terrakion with Scarf Beat Up partner with more than 108 Base Speed? Or bulky Terrakion with Rock Polish and Beat Up + Fake Out partner? Or something else?
  10. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Sitrus will never give you a more powerful attack than Charcoal. Sitrus Berry can activate at exactly 50%, bumping you to 75, from which an eruption has 112 bp, less than a charcoal heat wave's 120. Obviously 25% recovery is great, but don't be misled—charcoal is always better for power, less situational, more permanent, and always more powerful.

    This is a well known strategy from vgc '11, mostly well known for being terrible against any non-idiot player. First, if you're going to do it, you lead quick guard terrak and tailwind whimsicott. Second, you're still beaten by scizor, metagross, prankster t-wave, trick room... There's a reason TerraCott is synonymous with "popular gimmick" in doubles the way Ninjask and electivire are/were (esp in gen IV) in singles

    Edit: if this came off too harsh, sorry, didn't mean it that way. My first vgc 11 team had terracott. It's a common theorytrap, but it only looks good on paper
  11. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Sitrus also lets you survive in a situation where two attacks would faint Heatran but then Sitrus prevents that and you get that extra heat wave you needed. Not saying charcoal is bad, I'm going to try it too as I said, but Sitrus has its uses as well.
  12. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    Terracott is pretty unreliable, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to run or set up if there's a good situation for it, and you don't have to run any goofy Pokemon or really any different sets on them to get it to work. I typically just run Beat Up on Whimsicott over another move, which is the only downside to anything, and run another item instead of Sash on Terrakion.

    It's a gimmick, yes. It's mostly a noob beater, yes. But you can use those two Pokemon entirely differently if need be, and it requires very little setup, so I see no issue just running Beat Up on Whimsicott and non-sash Terrakion if that's something your team can work with. Whimsicott will still piss off the opponent with its annoying-ass cotton-bodied self, and Terrakion will still deal solid damage and create matchup problems throughout battles. You shouldn't be dead set on using Beat Up every game anyways, just look for a situation where the opportunity presents itself nicely and take advantage.
  13. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Well, this is a bug fix for singles too, but important for doubles: I fixed it so after the next restart, hits on Substitute won't consume the damage reduction berries.
  14. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    Just changed the name of this to "Doubles"; we don't need the pretentious title that this is the only way to play doubles. 6 vs 6 is kind of implied already, so this doesn't need a descriptor word. Thought I'd let you all know! I'm glad you're all enjoying doubles so much =)
  15. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    When did it stop being Smogon Doubles? Fitting name imo as there's a bunch of random rules like sleep clause / bans / evasion stuffs.

    But really I just love saying SMOGDUBS (all caps).

    Edit: Oh! and the banner says Smogon Doubles. That's a reason too.

    or do one better and make the official name SMOGDUBS. SmogDubs and smogdubs are also acceptable, but slightly less fun.
  16. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    also the ladder is still smogon doubles ^^
  17. NixHex

    NixHex No excuses
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    I think my sig solves all naming problema but smogdubz is close second.
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    OMFG MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND YOU INDECISIVE FUCKS

    SMOGDUBS LGI

    PS: This is not directed at anyone that comes here, but to the outside party that are making a big fuss over the name of this metagame and using Birkal as a messenger to rename this to something as lame as "Doubles"

    PPS: Talked it over with Birkal, and we're tentatively renaming it to Doubles, since Smogon isn't really endorsing this metagame yet. NixHex, let me know what you think ;d
  19. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Well, Smogon should endorse this wonderful metagame >:( What do we need to get this? It's already more played than Little Cup and in its way to be played as much as RU and VGC.
  20. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Someone tell me what to call this. :| If you make your next name change before I have time to update the ladder for the previous name change, you're making too many name changes and I'm suspending any ladder name changes until there's some semblance of consensus.
  21. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    it's smogdubz (with a z (pronounced zed not zee), good call nixhex)

    belief me i am an authority
  22. tehy

    tehy

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    In response to the naming thing

    I felt like saying Smogon Doubles because it's our doubles but on the other hand...

    It's not like we call it Smogon OU, even though our OU is arguably different from some OU's (PO's mainly). Or Smogon Ubers or you get the idea. If it's one of our tiers we should just call it by the name really, Doubles.
  23. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    that's because smogou sounds terrible
    i mean shit. what is that? a caillou spinoff?
  24. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    In seriousness, "Doubles OU" might work? Would allow for Smogdubs UU as "Doubles UU".
  25. Kaphotics

    Kaphotics Remodeling Kitchens
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