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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    1500s now... I think I'm starting to get the hang of this. Ganted, the majority of the players I run across seem to have relatively low ratings.

    So I looked up Pokemon that learned fake out and priority moves, and had decent bulk. I found this guy:
    [​IMG]
    Dewgong: Hydration
    Hp:90 Attack:70 Deffense:80 SpA:70 Sp.Def:95 Spe:70
    - Fake Out
    - Aqua Jet
    - Growl/Icy Wind
    - Rest

    No, not the best but I thought it was interesting that a total NU like Dewgong had a move pool so conducive to this meta.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Leader

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    Joim, interesting teams - why are you running Rock Slide on Conkeldurr, though? If I were using Iron Fist Conkeldurr I would probably make the most out of the boost by going Ice Punch > Rock Slide. I guess it's a matter of preference, really. Has the change been working better for you?

    For Heatran, I always prefer doubling up on its powerful STAB moves - you really don't need coverage when its fiery barrages are punching through resist mons like paper. I personally use Eruption AND Heat Wave (over HP Ice) - Eruption when Heatran is at 67+% health, and Heat Wave for below 67% health. This way, Tran is always hitting like a truck! I also prefer Sitrus Berry on Heatran, because the 25% recovery can put Tran back into Eruption-spam range.

    If you're looking for an additional TR setter, go with Dusknoir @ Mental Herb or Dusclops @ Eviolite! I've paired my Eruptran with one of these ghosts, and it hasn't disappointed me yet. voodoo pimp also uses the same combo, so it must be good! Here's the set:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Dusknoir @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Sunny Day
    - Disable / Will-O-Wisp

    Dusknoir's movepool and bulk really makes up for a great TR supporter. It has TR, Helping Hand, and Sunny Day, like Cress to really power up Heatran's STAB move in the sun to explosive levels. However, it also learns Disable, which is nice to prevent that one move on opponent's side that could hurt Heatran, prolonging its rampage. Will-O-Wisp is also nice utility move to burn the opponent's physical sweepers as well as activating Heatran's Flash Fire. Sunny Day + Helping Hand + Flash Fire boost = FIRE OF ANNIHILATION XD

    voodoo pimp uses Dusclops for the considerable boost in bulk, so you may very well go that route if you have a way around Taunt.

    Also if I'm using Victini, I'd give it Charcoal, Fire Gem, or Life Orb to further boost its nasty V-create. I'd give it Protect over Zen Headbutt, imo.

    Ludicolo seems out of place on a Sun team. If you want anti-rain mon to pair with Gastrodon, I'd use Ferrothorn (which also works nicely in TR) or Latios / Yache Grass-Type. I think your team already fares well against Rain even without Ludicolo imo. Maybe add Dusknoir in this slot?

    @ Arcticblast - I've seen you play with a sand TR team employing Gigalith - but Idk... It compounds the sand team's weakness to Grass-, Ice-, and Water-type moves, which is undesirable. I don't think Sand teams really have many TR sweeper options without complicating this problem.

    I've witnessed a mighty semi-TR Sand team that employs Cress to set up TR and Tyranitar to abuse TR. Then it has Excadrill to sweep everything in sand outside of TR. That's probably as best as you can go. Maybe Metagross / Escavalier / Scizor and Kyurem-Black as beneficiaries of TR, but Gigalith is mehh, imo ;x
  3. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    I'm going to make a couple posts here just to outline some stuff that needs to be addressed. Talked to Pocket/Pwnemon beforehand about doing this. Turned out a bit more differently than I originally planned, but still good stuff to read and consider.

    Before I start, definitions!

    Format: The rules, clauses, bans, etc. of a specific type of Pokemon battles.
    Metagame: The dominant, defining strategies that develop and evolve due to the format.

    It's been noted and discussed for a while that metagame development is the best way to grow the playerbase and attract new players. So, in order to develop the metagame, it's important to study other doubles metagames (in this case, there's only one more developed metagame) in order to get a better understanding of where this might be headed.

    I'm really into VGC, have competed for two years now and have had some good success recently. There are other players who play this tier that have the same background, and they seem to be using their same teams from VGC and doing well here. What does this imply? Two things, as I see it:

    1) The metagame is not as developed, and "teams from the future!" are winning. A lot.
    2) Doubles, regardless of some format tweaks, will always feature the same key concepts to doing well, such as team synergy, high-tier in-battle decisions, good team sustainability, and lots of spread moves.

    The most successful players in any format or metagame are those who strive to win, which, for those players, is what they find the most fun. Others find using more uncommon teams and strategies as a better way to have fun, even though they do not win as much. VERY rarely, these uncommon teams and strategies work successfully.

    People have a natural tendency to try to do their own thing, create their own identity, fight the power, rah rah. In a format and metagame that are mostly developing, it's tempting to try "different" things. However, back to my point before, to try different things and be successful at the same time, you have to understand how those different things can work based on what the current threats are. So since this is something that I've only seen briefly posted once about, I've outlined the threats that are extremely prominent in VGC and how they're impacted *for sure* by this current format (if I don't know for sure yet, I left them where they'd be in VGC. Only a couple I know for sure, and none of them are banned in VGC). It's not so that you can decipher a cute rationalization of why your team works due to the differences of formats (which is the primary reason as to why there has been some animosity towards this format); it's so that you understand what a metagame with years of development has come to, and how that metagame will mostly become this format's metagame.

    When Pocket started this format, it was originally pointed out that it should be VGC's format in order to help form more of a following for double battles. However, it was decided that it would be best to simply make this a more Smogon-esque, so it was introduced as a slightly different type of format. It was a rather fun idea to open up the can of worms right away isntead, but it did cause more of a growth stunt of the metagame. Understanding how the game develops and what the set standards are (or will obviously become) is what needs to happen BEFORE you start countering the threats that you believe shouldn't be threats. The metagame should stay as is now, no need to change any of the format. However, the impact the differences between this format and VGC have on the game are more minimal than people want to believe right now, and until the threats from VGC are actually established first and grown up next to the threats from Standard Doubles, we can't figure out what

    I encourage you to try the Pokemon listed under Tier 1 and Tier 2 more often than you try the other ones in Tiers 3-5. It's better to get practice with what you'll see more often as you learn, as that will help you not only learn how doubles works, but how the main threats in it work as well. Typically, as the game moves along, the vast majority of these Pokemon will pick up in usage and stay right where they are. Many will move up and down a tiny bit from time to time, and a select few will make major swings, but that will more than likely be dictated by the format's changes and tweaks.

    That is why it's intriguing for a VGC player like myself to check this format out. I'm curious to see what effect testing the format will have on the competitive potential of the game, and if there is a much more ideal format out there for doubles yet to be discovered. It's a cool concept that the players can test things and see what makes the game the most fun and competitive at the same time. That's what I encourage you to embrace about this- look to taking what knowledge we already have and seeing how it can be applied and where it can go.



    On the note of the threats list, you can locate it HERE in Spreadsheet form.



    How this works, and what to do and what not to do (READ BEFORE REFERENCING OR PAY DEARLY):
    -Each mon is listed in a tier-style. I hate tier lists. I wanted to avoid this. However, this is probably the best way to explain how often things are used and how viable they are.
    -All of the mons in the first two tiers are VGC-legitimate. I think Toxicroak and Blissey were the only two that I felt are not worth a damn in Doubles compared to VGC, so I placed them a tier lower than they usually would be.
    -The incorporation of the legendary Pokemon along with testing of the format's impact is what is going to change this list in the future.
    -The legendary Pokemon are listed at the bottom, the ones that aren't allowed in VGC, anyways. This is solely my opinion and observation, and I will admit that unlike the VGC-legal mons which I feel are almost totally optimally ordered, these are not even close to confidently placed. This is simply from my own observation and testing, which isn't as reliable as my own observation and testing over ten times the amount of time plus dozens of other peoples' as well (referencing the VGC mons). So take the legendaries with a grain of salt, they require tons of testing still (I highly encourage testing them on all sorts of standard teams to see how they do.)
    -DO NOT argue about how I have placed the mons without providing adequate evidence supporting a counter-argument (explained below). The discussion of this is not the intention of this spreadsheet, and baselessly arguing about it would be achieving the wrong purpose of this. If that starts, I'll be doing two things: sternly reminding you to read this post thoroughly, and asking a moderator to end that discussion promptly. The idea of this is to give you an idea of how the metagame is using the format implications alone with VGC's current threats, minus Trick Room threats being more prominent for the most part. This will change obviously as we see more clearly what the extra legendaries, clauses, and Pokemon limits affect, but for the time being, at least understand the former threats by either watching battle videos of them (can find these on YouTube, Nugget Bridge, or possibly even on the VGC ladder) or try them out for size.
    If you DO post a critique of a Pokemon's placement here, to get me to read it, you need to show the following evidence to make sure we have some quality control:
    -3 battle videos of the Pokemon / strategy doing well + winning, two of them against players rated 1750+
    -5 Damage calculations against top 20 mons that back up your explanation
    -At least one battle video against a 1750+ player showing a weak spot + losing
    -Show a team that the Pokemon fits on
    -Ask a question (or two, or three, or...) to promote healthy discussion


    That's all I ask. That way, we can all see how it works, and find a way to evaluate it and use it if possible!


    Now, onto the walls of fame and shame. These are both intended to have a bit of humor interjected while primarily either showing examples of good posts (WoF) or bad posts (WoS). Don't take anything personally, just observe the lesson behind each.

    Finally, if you're curious behind the rationale of one of these posts on the walls of fame/shame, just ask away and I'll do my best to describe what you need to know.

    Here goes!
  4. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    This is pretty solid, it just straight up eliminates a lot of gimmicks.



    Yup.



    Good tip for anyone doing calcs. Spread moves are reduced to 75% of power if the opponent has two Pokemon out.



    I feel exactly the same way, an added perk of trying this meta for me.



    This post gets so many good points across. Well said.



    Exactly. Cress is flexible and moderately unpredictable at times, which makes it glue-like along with its awesome base stats and utility.



    Yup.



    READ THIS BEFORE EVER ARGUING SOMETHING HERE EVER. This is golden. High five @ Audiosurfer



    Brute force is the most effective TR counter, so having Rage Powder is a great way to ensure you get a speed advantage for a few turns. Just need to decide if a 4 turn speed advantage is worth the amount of damage the Rage Powder/Follow Me mon takes.



    This is how you explain an idea: show that it can do something other than using your emotions. These are excellent damage calculations that show calculations on Pokemon that are relevant to the discussion. Awesome stuff here.



    More powerful than Sleep Orb.



    Yup. Watching, observing, and asking questions is the best way to learn.



    Feint is a great idea. Not a fan of putting something like this here, but this is a really constructive idea, shows some great thought process. People like to Protect to "stall out" Trick Room, so why not Feint them and make them pay? Great call. Give it a test.



    This just gets placed here for the laugh. Nothing more.



    Good call. That's the best way to get weather back up, and good observation in that situation!



    This is refreshing after seeing the Blaziboners all over before. Also, great question to guide discussion.



    True. I have a trophy to prove this ;)



    Yeah, it's a gimmick. A strong gimmick, but still...it's too reliant on certain things happening or not happening to work consistently well enough. Good call.



    Yup.



    Elbow dropping that conversation was necessary. This post did said elbow dropping.



    Good review of those two.



    Another insanely good post. Read it, it can only help.



    Yup.



    This comment needs to be featured, because this is exactly what my gripe was too. It's critically constructive and to the point.
  5. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    It works, sure, but how often? That was my friend, by the way, who was in Skype with me at the time, and he was totally messing around with that team. He obviously understands its limitations, but wanted to see how many people he could actually beat with it. Turned out he won 61% of his battles by the end of the night, but that is 1) not a very good number if you want to call it a legitimate team, and 2) due to him playing pretty bad players while being a pretty experienced player himself. He’s been able to get top 50 on the ladder easily with a very standard, solid team, so it says a lot about how much the team was actually holding him back. He was also tired out of his mind that night and playing on autopilot, which was okay since that team seriously either instaloses or instawins at team preview. That’s not a stretch, it’s true. If anything has Priority, Fake Out + taunt or sleep, or Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song, he INSTANTLY loses since his other Pokemon have nothing but 1 pretty bad move each.

    Basically two lessons: one, gimmicks are not reliable and require good matchups rather than good playing, and two, if something is winning a few battles but in general not doing that well, or just winning a couple in a row and making you feel good, you can’t prop it up. Make it a goal to find and offer solid evidence so that you don’t accidentally misdirect other players (or yourself). Simply giving bad things a lot of pumping up and asserting that you know what you’re doing at the same time will understandably mislead newer players.

    If you have fun using gimmicks, go for it, use them. But please, do not come back and state that they’re “viable” and “very good” in the thread because they won a battle against a certain team archetype. It needs to do well against the vast majority of teams to be good. Having fun and using them for fun is one thing, stating that they’re able to be viable and used consistently, however, is incorrect, and extremely misleading to boot.

    Finally, if you want to post how your team works, you should know what it does and be able to explain this to other players by general rationale backed by good damage calculations and good battle examples. For example on how to show your team is legitimate, check this RMT by Darkmalice.



    Just some other instances I saw of this type of thing happening...
    Show Hide
    (Stall is not at all viable in doubles, never has been, and nothing in the new format changes implies that it will ever be. Two mons attacking rather than one is the biggest problem. Setup moves mean nothing, double damage for three turns is better than a setup move and two turns of attacking. You also need tons of evidence to support this train of thought, much less assert it.)



    (Its typing is often considered its bane because of fire, flying, psychic, and ice weakness, fire and ice being extremely common. It has fire weakness, so how can you say it walls SUN TEAMS? Ice Beams and Flamethrowers/Fire Blasts/Heat Waves are more than “occasional”, and I’ve never seen a Sludge Bomb from a team that actually threatened me yet in over 250 battles. None of those moves are occasional. Technician allows Breloom to actually do damage and use its better stat and typing layout, its attack. Its defenses are far too poor to have it bulky, SQUIRTLE has higher base special defense...without eviolite, and also has less type weaknesses. Finally, be sure you identify exactly what you are trying to wall, and do damage calculations and show them to help people understand if it actually works. Also be honest and point out calcs that DON’T help its cause as well, since people need to know both pros and cons to succeed with a more specialized Pokemon such as the one you’re advertising.)



    (That’s my Kingdra. And Swift Swim in Trick Room makes Substitute totally useless. I never brought Kingdra to beat TR.)



    (It almost always has Psyshock, not Psychic, and very rarely has screens. Only seen two Cresselias with even one screen in this tier since beginning.)



    (Observations are fine and often fun to read, but make sure you clearly state that they’re observations instead of asserting things based on a few weeks’ worth of play...)




    (Then you haven’t ever faced an even half-decent player using one...I’ll show you one if you want.)



    SHAAAAME

    (Sidenote: don’t call people names, especially potentially offensive ones, openly. I know you’re totally messing around because you’re friends, but other people might just think it’s okay anytime...sadly :l)

    Actually I saw this too when running Perish Trap...and lost to it... so I advocate myself for the Wall of Shame. I also called the person a scrub. Twice. :l



    It needs at least 168 Special Attack with Modest Nature and Grass Gem to OHKO a standard Tyranitar in Sand. That means it can’t outspeed neutral stat 120s (base 100s) or can’t survive important hits, such as Specs Politoed Ice Beam. It’s a pretty awful mon, honestly, and is outclassed by Serperior, Tangrowth, and a lot of other mono Grass types. It wasn’t even used more than 1% of the time in VGC 2011 when it was one of the only Grass-Type Pokemon available...:l



    Broken as in cannot work properly ever? That makes sense. I thought that’s what you meant until the second part where you made hilariously Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-tested, Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-disapproved statements. Also, evidence for this please.



    Politoed has awful base attack, a movepool of pretty poor moves, and is never the thing attacking inside of Rain that is the real offensive threat. I’ve noticed people piling my Politoed as my Kingdra rips right through their team and wonder what the heck they did that for. I’ve been running bulky support (Icy Wind / Helping Hand) Politoed rather than flat out attacking...and have reached the top of the ladder with this Politoed and stayed there for over 3 weeks. Even the offensive Politoeds are not scary, since they rarely outspeed and OHKO a well-EV’d mon that’s actually threatening. The ONLY reason toed is used is because of Drizzle. If it did not have Drizzle, it would be utterly useless, even if Rain was in play.





    Also, things that are shameful that belong here:
    -Pressing the Toxic button
    -Hi Health Loss Kick
    -Eeveelution teams
    -Gimmicks that instalose to common Pokemon
    -Double Protecting turn 1
    -Protecting when you’re inevitably going to lose
    -Fake Out + Protect
    -Rage Powder + Protect, simply when you thought it couldn’t get worse
    -Monotype teams





    So, just a quick recap of things that can be improved
    ~ Don’t mislead people. This sort of goes with backing up your claims, but don’t overhype something that isn’t winning the VAST majority of the time (75%+ as a benchmark). Make sure if you’re just posting thoughts you clearly state that it’s just a work in progress, but an interesting idea, rather than asserting it’s legendary and on a killing spree.

    ~ Back up your claims. I typically like to see, like I said in the first post, 3 solid wins and 5 solid damage calcs. Give me a reason to use it, and something to watch out for as well (add another 2-3 damage calcs and another battle replay or two to prove your case) so I know whether or not it will fit on my team. This is really necessary when challenging the norm when claiming something. It also can catch a flaw before you post it to the world and look silly.

    ~ Try it before you hate it. And show that you tried it, if possible. Playing 1-2 months is not enough time to know everything, and rightfully so.

    ~ On that note, never be afraid to learn. Not even the 8 year veterans are done learning. There is always something you can take away from each battle, and never be afraid to accept a loss or accept defeat when it happens. Learn from it and bounce back.

    ~ Gimmicks rely on matchups. Even though that sounds good at first, it’s really not. Almost every single gimmick, if not every single one, either wins or loses or comes close to doing so in team preview. If you’re using it to have fun, that is fine, enjoy yourself! However, if you’re doing so, please do not suddenly change from fun-loving gimmick user to veteran doubles guru and post that the gimmick is amazing because it won a few excellent matchups. Also, since gimmicks are typically all-or-nothing teams, they don’t encourage good play, and battling against them is a drag since the result is often determined way before the end of the battle.

    ~ Things are still yet to be discovered. Not all discoveries will turn out to be gimmicks. Some may be viable strategies or sets.There are a lot of things we have to learn yet about how this format changes the doubles metagame that we already know of. Most of the things being posted on this wall of shame are ideas we mostly look back at a few months later and realize how far we’ve come and chuckle a little, like Firestorm said: “Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were!” We need to first understand what is currently working so that the development of the metagame is less painful. So touch up on your history! Use resources that more experienced doubles players are giving, such as players like Darkmalice, Firestorm, Makiri, Audiosurfer, and myself have listed in the forums (such as the spreadsheet linked above!).



    From transitioning from one game to the other, I have seen very minimal difference so far, in my opinion mostly because players are not yet settled into doubles, much less this format. I do believe that the mechanics of this format will influence the metagame down the road and encourage really developmental testing. We just have to get to that point first, and repeating the same general mistakes that we’ve already made years ago isn’t necessary. So first things first: understand what is already known. Make that your goal. After that’s achieved, we’ll naturally make the movement to exploration. If I can be of any assistance, let me know, I'm willing to help you with understanding this as much as I can.
  6. lucariojr

    lucariojr quell the storm and ride the thundurus
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    posting to say that i like where this is going as a long time doubles player, now that i haven't heard much serious mention of stealth rock in the last page or so. i WAS going to quote some people on this page, but i dont feel like it, so

    @arcticblast im sorry but what exactly does your gigalith do that ttar doesnt do already besides having a more powerful rock slide (which, by the way, would make you use MORE similar pokemon)? if i would ever use a gigalith again (which i haven't in a long time because i think very poorly of it) i'd try to differentiate it by using cutsap+explosion+sturdy, and as you said, rock blast to take care of nasty ol sub genies and the much more threatening topmoth combo. as it stands, your gigalith is redundant because it makes you pair it with pokemon that do the exact same thing; fire off powerful spread moves.

    @joim, i dunno what you plan to do with ludicolo or gastrodon if you're not facing a rain team. hell, i'd probably switch to power swap+overheat ninetales, if not get rid of it and make a manual sun team (simply because ninetales is p dumb!!!), leting cress do the heavy lifting and put more focus on beating tyranitar, who fucks you over nine ways till sunday if its holding a chople berry and is well guarded protects like a wimp every other turn, letting its partners deal with w/e your first line of defense is. ps, random mons with sunny day is the shit, comin from a guy who uses sunny day virizion his main gbu team. (hint: sunny day ludicolo)

    @post above me, this is the list to live by, really, though im guilty of hi jump kicking into protects when i use mienshao (which is surprisingly often, according to my spreadsheets........................). if you think simulator battles are bad, you should try gbu where you have to sit through the battles, animations and all. it's just embarrassing, really (though i can kinda excuse the free mode, but fuck anyone who battles me with an umbreon/espeon combo on ranking mode) ps, great all around post, and i think that advise applies to pretty much anything :)

    pps, sleep clause sucks in doubles. please tell me in the near future you'll be uh, suspect testing it (which is as good as unbanning it, really). just do what we vgc players have been doing since '10: kill the amoonguss/smeargle ON SIGHT, have contingency plans against trick room, and discover the true power of restochesto and lum berry.
  7. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Conkeldurr is working great :> Ice Punch would do more damage, but Rock Slide has both spread and flinch, which can be very useful. Wouldn't be the first time I lose due to a well used Protect or double protect, Rock Slide at least is going to damage one unprotected foe and maybe flinching it.

    I will try this, it's true that HP Ice only comes handy for Dragons when Heatran is at half its HP. The Chople Berry has been useful against Mach Punchs, though :p

    Dusclops and Dusknoir scare me because Taunt bait, but I could try them. I dislike Life Orb recoil since Victini is getting -def and -spdef, but Fire Gem V-create in sun sounds awesome, lol.

    Gastrodon fares well on its own, since it can deal decent damage and will get water attacks out of the way. I paired them up since they can spam Surf together, not only against rain, but as anti hail and anti sun teams too. It's right, Ninetales is a very crappy mon, but being able to set up your weather by simply switching it makes it a valuable asset. If there's no other weather, I just spam heat wave until shit dies.

    It was interesting to try new TR teams, I'm trying to get a good one that's a little different from your average TR team :p I'm noting the suggestions, a Latios or Ferrothorn could help not only with rain, but with other weathers too.
  8. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    [​IMG]

    Air balloon on a STARAPTOR? I don't even...
  9. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    I chose Dusclops and I'm glad.
    I'm now working on getting around Taunt, but leading with Dusclops and Heatran is amazing. It can't be Fake Out'd. First turn, TR + Protect. Second turn, Sunny Day and Eruption. Third turn, w-o-w and Eruption, then Helping Hand + Eruption what is still alive.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11489946
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11491377
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles11491833
  10. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    dude, air balloon rotom-fan, now thats how it works
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    As i saw from your replays, Heatran has Eruption, Earth Power, and Protect. I am guessing Heat Wave as the fourth move, to use when you have lost a lot of life and Eruption is weak right? Also would replacing Sitrus Berry on Heatran for Charcoal be a good idea, as you still have Heat Wave to use when on low life?
  12. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Yeah, the next move is Heat Wave. Charcoal sounds nice, I'm trying Sitrus first as Pocket suggested to keep Eruption at higher attack more time, but I will definitely test more items to boost the power of the moves. Sometimes Sitrus can make the difference between a KO and not a KO, so it's important too :p
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What about Beat Up + Terrakion with Rock Slide? Is this strategy viable and what is the best way to execute it? Scarf Terrakion with Scarf Beat Up partner with more than 108 Base Speed? Or bulky Terrakion with Rock Polish and Beat Up + Fake Out partner? Or something else?
  14. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Sitrus will never give you a more powerful attack than Charcoal. Sitrus Berry can activate at exactly 50%, bumping you to 75, from which an eruption has 112 bp, less than a charcoal heat wave's 120. Obviously 25% recovery is great, but don't be misled—charcoal is always better for power, less situational, more permanent, and always more powerful.

    This is a well known strategy from vgc '11, mostly well known for being terrible against any non-idiot player. First, if you're going to do it, you lead quick guard terrak and tailwind whimsicott. Second, you're still beaten by scizor, metagross, prankster t-wave, trick room... There's a reason TerraCott is synonymous with "popular gimmick" in doubles the way Ninjask and electivire are/were (esp in gen IV) in singles

    Edit: if this came off too harsh, sorry, didn't mean it that way. My first vgc 11 team had terracott. It's a common theorytrap, but it only looks good on paper
  15. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Sitrus also lets you survive in a situation where two attacks would faint Heatran but then Sitrus prevents that and you get that extra heat wave you needed. Not saying charcoal is bad, I'm going to try it too as I said, but Sitrus has its uses as well.
  16. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    Terracott is pretty unreliable, but it doesn't take a lot of effort to run or set up if there's a good situation for it, and you don't have to run any goofy Pokemon or really any different sets on them to get it to work. I typically just run Beat Up on Whimsicott over another move, which is the only downside to anything, and run another item instead of Sash on Terrakion.

    It's a gimmick, yes. It's mostly a noob beater, yes. But you can use those two Pokemon entirely differently if need be, and it requires very little setup, so I see no issue just running Beat Up on Whimsicott and non-sash Terrakion if that's something your team can work with. Whimsicott will still piss off the opponent with its annoying-ass cotton-bodied self, and Terrakion will still deal solid damage and create matchup problems throughout battles. You shouldn't be dead set on using Beat Up every game anyways, just look for a situation where the opportunity presents itself nicely and take advantage.
  17. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Well, this is a bug fix for singles too, but important for doubles: I fixed it so after the next restart, hits on Substitute won't consume the damage reduction berries.
  18. Birkal

    Birkal CAW
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    Just changed the name of this to "Doubles"; we don't need the pretentious title that this is the only way to play doubles. 6 vs 6 is kind of implied already, so this doesn't need a descriptor word. Thought I'd let you all know! I'm glad you're all enjoying doubles so much =)
  19. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    When did it stop being Smogon Doubles? Fitting name imo as there's a bunch of random rules like sleep clause / bans / evasion stuffs.

    But really I just love saying SMOGDUBS (all caps).

    Edit: Oh! and the banner says Smogon Doubles. That's a reason too.

    or do one better and make the official name SMOGDUBS. SmogDubs and smogdubs are also acceptable, but slightly less fun.
  20. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    also the ladder is still smogon doubles ^^
  21. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    I think my sig solves all naming problema but smogdubz is close second.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    OMFG MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND YOU INDECISIVE FUCKS

    SMOGDUBS LGI

    PS: This is not directed at anyone that comes here, but to the outside party that are making a big fuss over the name of this metagame and using Birkal as a messenger to rename this to something as lame as "Doubles"

    PPS: Talked it over with Birkal, and we're tentatively renaming it to Doubles, since Smogon isn't really endorsing this metagame yet. NixHex, let me know what you think ;d
  23. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Well, Smogon should endorse this wonderful metagame >:( What do we need to get this? It's already more played than Little Cup and in its way to be played as much as RU and VGC.
  24. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Someone tell me what to call this. :| If you make your next name change before I have time to update the ladder for the previous name change, you're making too many name changes and I'm suspending any ladder name changes until there's some semblance of consensus.
  25. Firestorm

    Firestorm I did my best, I have no regrets!
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    it's smogdubz (with a z (pronounced zed not zee), good call nixhex)

    belief me i am an authority
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