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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I think the main thing with these two pokemon strategies is not that you just have two pokemon that work very well together to execute a certain strategy, but that can also work with other pokemon when the time calls for it. I've found this happens most when the pokemon used are good in their own right, and if you see something that you know will fuck up the strategy you have a good fallback.
  2. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Yep, I've found Quagsire troublesome too as it can OHKO Heatran with EQ.
  3. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Manaphy has trouble abusing Hydration Rest or Tail Glow due to being being double targeted. I've seen it Surf/Blizzard spam before and utilize Heart Swap pretty effectively.

    Genesect I find is very useful for +1 U-turns and Normal Gem Explosions as well as having Dual Screens, Thunder Wave, Simple Beam, and good coverage on the special side(Ice Beam is particularly useful). All of these help a lot and outside of U-turn, people don't really expect Genesect to be using these weapons.


    Also, has anyone tried Screech/Metal Sound? In doubles, it would be significantly better than Helping Hand in certain situations(the debuffer goes first and you aim to specifically knock out a certain threat. Also, the effects last longer than one turn).

    Accelgor gets Acid Spray, most of the Prankster abusers get Fake Tears, Murkrow and lots of fast stuff get Screech.
  4. Skore

    Skore

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    I've used Fake Tears on my Blizzard spamming team to allow my Blizzards to open holes in teams that aren't expecting it.

    But really, it's awesome for guaranteeing KO's on a particular threat and is an underused move for sure that nobody prepares for.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Doubles Co-Lead

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    At +4 I would be spamming Cloyster's spread moves, since it would most definitely destroy both enemies on the field. Switch out Genesect for Abomasnow (or summon Hail beforehand) so Cloyster can spam perfectly accurate +4 Blizzards!

    I'd probably use Surf, too, and add a Storm Drain / Water Absorb user.

    Joim: If I'm facing a slower opponent, I wouldn't be so quick to set up Trick Room. This is more of a flaw of Heatran as a TR sweeper than a flaw of the 2-mon core, imo. Yes the opponent can also bring out 2 hard hitters that can double-target KO Dusknoir, but then I would simply switch out (or not lead with Dusknoir in the first place)? I will find another opportunity to set up Eruptran with Dusknoir, nbd.
  6. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    In most of these occasions I lead with Scrafty and Victini to Fake Out and fast attack or Cresselia to support Scrafty, sometimes I win before I can use ErupTran, hehe. I'm using Escavalier right now, so I try to run TR nonetheless since it can deal with Gastrodon and Quagsire with its strong Mega Horns (especially with Helping Hand).
  7. StarmanXL

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    Just remember you need a bug gem to guarantee an OHKO on all gastrodons, and I think with defense investments you have a small chance to OHKO with insect plate. I dunno how often gastrodon run DEF in doubles though.
  8. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Most I've seen run 252 hp 4 spd or 4 def and 252 SpA. Helping Hand eases KOing it, though.

    Btw, BH got a viability ranking thread, we could have one too :P
  9. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Braverius' ranking list would be a very good starting point if we made one (not perfect, but that's why we discuss different Pokemon's rankings).
  10. StarmanXL

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    Braverius' list is a good starting point, and I would agree his first four would be S-rank in our metagame. However, since the reference to the BH viability ranking was brought up, it kinda makes me wonder: would we want to rank pokemon on their individual merits, pokemon pairs, or overall strategies involving said pokemon, like the BH thread does their rankings? It seems a bit silly to define the pokemon in isolation since they'll always be paired with another, but then again the pokemon itself is the only reliable constant, and some truly are better than others.
  11. Eventei

    Eventei

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    Oh man, I had a game last 70 turns before I was interrupted. It was basically just a long stall war. He was trying to stall out my WonderTomb (Used Shedinja's Mimic to copy Entrainment, then used Entrainment on Spiritomb). Unfortunately, I don't have a replay of the game.
  12. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Wait a sec, shouldn't that fail? I faced a team that employed that same tactic a few days ago and Entrainment failed when Shedinja used it. The page for Entrainment even says that it fails if the user has Wonder Guard.
  13. Bent1ey

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    Barring the iffy accuracy for some of this moves I've got to say the argument is worth my attention, I'll be testing some of these.
  14. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    This is a good question. I really think it's based on how often they're seen work with other Pokemon, and how widespread their coverage is. I pretty much made the tiers as general as possible. Basically tier 1 is commonly used / totally viable, tier 2 is used / totally viable, tier 3 is rarely used / sometimes viable, tier 4 + 5 are just outclassed / bad Pokemon. Pretty simple, just need to see how things work over the long term. Having someone evaluate a mon on their team that I placed too high or too low on the tier list helps guide testing and stuff so we can get a better feel for how it does.
  15. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Rank Pokemon individually but take into consideration the Pokemon's pairings with other Pokemon (for example, consider the Guard Split Shuckle + Chansey combination and other combinations when deciding on Shuckle's ranking, as opposed to Shuckle by itself). The thread would be mess if we included separate rankings for a Pokemon by itself and the same Pokemon with another teammate.
  16. StarmanXL

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    Indeed. Given all this, perhaps the most consistent way to to do the ranking at the moment would simply rank pokemon individually, and in their ranking detail what kinds of pokemon they work well with and how effective they are at being those sorts of partners; so for example, S-Rank pokemon would be pokemon that can reliably provide good support no matter what kind of team they're on (Hitmontop, Cress) or fit on certain teams but make them incredibly good (Politoed).

    It is a bit subjective and arbitrary I know, but I figure it would be best to start with the pokemon with the most internal reliability and versatility (in terms of pairing with others) and begin weening them down until we reach pokemon that are outclassed at roles pokemon above do (i.e. Kingdra would be a better swift swim abuser than Seismitoad), need more and more specific support just to function (i.e. every Slaking ever), or are just bad (i.e. too many examples from ladder to list). There will of course be some grey areas (is a pokemon that can only pair with one or two others but absolutely wrecks when it's with those pokemon higher, lower, or the same rank as a pokemon that can be stuck on a lot of teams but is sorta meh?) but community discussion and contribution would eventually sort it out. If we were going to do anything about specific strategies and pairings and stuff I think that would probably best fall under a different viability ranking thread, so as to prevent clutter and confusion. We could figure out how to properly incorporate the two later--that is, if people are up for that idea.

    Besides that, we'd need to figure out how we'd define our rankings. Looking at the Viability Rankings thread over in the OU section, we can get a good idea of where to start but there's obviously a lot of stuff we need to change:

    Show Hide
    ..okay. Since it's apparent that everyone will want their "favorites" moved up until nothing exists in any rank below C, I'm going to try to introduce some objectivity into these proceedings.

    S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.


    Now the obvious problem with adopting these definitions is that nothing in doubles is going to sweep teams by itself, and you're pretty much SOL if you even think about walling a bunch of shit (yes Cress is an annoying prick but she does more than just sit there sponging hits). Maybe something more appropriate for our purposes would focus less on sweeping and walling, especially by itself, but more on general offensive presence and team support? I was gonna type up a possible list as well as my rationale for S-Rank pokes but I am too tired.
  17. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    I think the 'free turns' concept would be important in doubles ranking. There is also level of utility(scoring KOs, supporting the team), how it matches up in the metagame(Fighting types have to be ranked with Hitmontop and Conkeldurr usually being a better choice in mind. Pokemon weak to spread moves get ranked lower.) and finally longevity.

    Hitmontop creates a bunch of free turns with Intimidate making physical attackers want to switch, the threat of Fight Gem Close Combat forcing in their fighting-resist, Wide Guard removing the threat of powerful spread moves and Fake Out doing some damage AND stopping an opponent from attacking. Its bulk also lets it stick around or force the opponent to double target it(similar to Cresselia). For example, it survives an uninvested Psycho Boost from Deoxys-S 90% of the time.

    Gastrodon would fall into 'favorable match ups'. Cresselia would be 'versatility'. Politoed is 'utility(support)'+'free turns'. Kyurem-B would be 'utility(KO potential)'.

    Also, they all have a high amount of longevity due to their bulk. Whereas Sableye has longevity due to its typing and Prankster Recover.

    I think the rankings would be best using those qualifiers that I listed at the beginning of the post.
  18. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    I think Pokemon should be ranked in a similar way to BH, considering their strategies and how they work with others. I'd admit t's not an easy thing to do :/

    Another thing I'd like is to have Doubles analyses. How about having non-official ones linked in the OP so people can know how to play this meta better?
  19. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I didn't think about free turns. That would probably be a large factor yes.

    As for analyses, I'd love to see some. I've literally just been using VGC stuff (but would we have to change too many analyses?) and I really suck at doing EVs and such, so I don't know how much I could help aside from proofreading, but I'd be willing to do what I could.
  20. Rayquaza_

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    Is Sky Drop banned because of the Gravity glitch or is it considered uncompetitive for some reason?
  21. Terraquaza

    Terraquaza Ein Hoch auf uns
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    actually it's pretty good in doubles, you can even build teams around sky drop. but game freak sucks and didnt even remove the bug :(
  22. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Really now? What strats have you seen around it?
  23. Eventei

    Eventei

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    This was recently fixed on Pokemon Showdown, as it works that way in the games.
  24. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Actually, on closer examination, i think I have to disagree with this statement. Hitmontop and Conkeldurr are very good pokemon, but this statement seems to imply that the two of them are typically best at fulfilling any role of a fighting type, and I think that's just not the case. For starters, both are rather slow; the first has priority to help out its middling speed but Conkeldurr can't rely soley on mach punch, regulating it primariy to TR teams. That already gives fast fighting types an advantage over them and the ability to fulfill niches they cannot--Hitmontop, the faster of the two, is primarily support as opposed to straight offense anyway from what I've seen.

    Secondly, both of them really suck at taking down ghosts--Payback and Sucker Punch are pretty shitty for getting the job done. This gives Scrafty a nice niche in being able to provide intimidate and fake out support but also being able to threaten slow ghosts and psychics often appearing on TR teams--being immune to psychic and resistant to ghost also helps. And we can't forget Toxicroak's usefulness for rain teams.

    Granted, I'm not sure about the roles of some other fighting types, such as Lucario or Mienshao or Infernape or Breloom, but I figure they could at least have something going for them.
  25. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Just today I was thinking about a supportish version of Hariyama, which has a superior bulk when compared with Hitmontop minus Intimidate, but it is true that 'Top has most of the tools to work as an incredibly solid support. Specially bulky/Thick Fat Hariyama resists common spread moves such as Rock Slide, Blizzard and Heat Wave, making it a decent niche.

    If you use it on a fast pokemon like Aerodactyl it's essentially a virtual Fake Out that lets you choose your matchup for the current turn, sort of mixed with Protect. Under optimal conditions its a move that can work as both Protect and Fake Out, but without the limitations of either of those, it's obviously a pretty versatile move in the game and it will be awesome to have it back on Gen VI doubles :)
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