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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    A week or 2 ago, there was a discussion on #doubles about the ranking list Braverius put up, and The Exeggutor listed some of the pokemon she thought should be in higher rankings, one of which was Swampert. Since I've used Swampert in the past, I figured I'd give a bit of a writeup regarding it and how it performed on the team I was using.

    EDIT: Improved set here.
  2. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    I use it a lot, I've used it in double intimidate with Himtontop or Scrafty, Discharge with Thundurus, Earthquake Spam with Cresselia or Rock Slide + EQ alongside Garchomp. Definitely a solid Poke.
  3. StarmanXL

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    Lando-T is seriously good. It has sort of a disappointing speed stat but makes up for it with Intimidate and power. Intimidate is probably its main selling point, as it makes it good for pretty much any team, and two immunities and a fighting resist is always appreciated. I wouldn't compare it to Hitmontop, though: Hitmontop is more of a support kind of mon with intimidate and fake out. It only really hits hard once. Lando-T, in contrast, lacks fake out support but puts on consistent offensive pressure. They have different typings and roles; the only real similarity between them is Intimidate.

    I don't know if there are any standard sets, but I'd imagine it'd be something along the lines of EQ/Rock Slide/U-Turn (U-Turn is criminally underrated in this meta like holy shit is it good)/Filler, which would probably be something along the lines of either Stone Edge for a more power rock type move or Superpower for eliminating fighting weaks--I'm not a big fan of explosion in the last slot since it's disappointingly weak without STAB, Helping Hand, or normal gem.
  4. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Explosion is still strong enough to net a KO as a last resort move, coming from high attack.
  5. StarmanXL

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    Well yeah but for a move that means you die, you'd want something more powerful. The nerf, reduction in spread moves, and no STAB doesn't make it quite the behemoth it needs to be. I've tried it out a few times and been generally unimpressed with the results.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Interesting find in Swampert, Audiosurfer! For the last slot, I'd most likely use Ice Beam / Blizzard over Rock Slide, because 1) better coverage and 2) unSTAB Rock Slide is piss weak. I may even use Stone Edge before Rock Slide. Overall I'd go with Ice Beam / Blizzard, because it hits Landorus-T and dragons for good damage. Swampert would have to be Brave, though.

    Another interesting set that I theorymonned was a Mirror Coat (and possibly Counter) Swampert set with Custap Berry so it can land a Torrent-boosted Hydro Pump / Surf or Endeavor. Swampert is bulky enough to tank most neutral hits, making Mirror Coat / Counter a deadly weapon. Once it's low in health, Custap Berry would activate to ruin an additional mon with Endeavor ;d Probably not worth a team slot, though.

    As for Landorus-T, I would probably not use Explosion without a LO boost or Normal Gem - even with its base 145 Attack, Explosion wont be doing much without those additional boosts, imo. EQ - Rock Slide / Stone Edge - Protect - U-turn / Superpower / Explosion @ Ground Gem / Soft Sand / Life Orb / Normal Gem would probably be the set I would use.
  7. youngjake93

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    I think it is cool that Chandelure has been catching on! I've been using it as a late-game cleaner with scarf Heat Wave/Shadow Ball or an early-game lure with scarf Energy Ball(I'd assume sunnybeam would work wonders).
    With a layer of rocks and/or prior damage, Chandelure cleans up easily especially because Flash Fire boosts are somewhat easy to lure in. It comes close to OHKOing things like Kyurem-B after rocks even with the spread modifier and no boosts.
    CB Terrakion sort of plays in a similar way but with different type coverage and on the physical side.

    I'm still shocked that Murkrow hasn't caught on.. The support it provides if played correctly is legendary! Featherdance a Kyurem-B and it suddenly can't even pull of simple 2hkos. Snarl has dual functionality in finishing off threats under 12ish% HP and spamming to nerf special attackers. Plus it keeps you from being taunt bait.
    Prankster Roost works extremely well with Featherdance+Snarl combo especially when it gets rid of your ice/rock weakness until your partner deals with the threat.
    The last slot depends on your team needs. You have the pretty much exclusive Quash, Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Perish Song, Mean Look, Haze and more. Quash helps a lot with Spore users, Perish Song helps if you run hazards or trap, etc.



    Edit: Pocket, you mention all of those good moves+ability for Custap Swampert and don't mention Endure? :O
  8. StarmanXL

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    The thing about Murkrow is that other than Quash the other Prankster users have it beat. Why use Featherdance when I can just WoW with Sableye? Why run Twave on Murkrow when I can do the same with Thundurus-I while posing a massive offensive threat? Why run Mean Look when I can just use Gothitelle? Why run Haze for...well I'm not sure. Why run Tailwind when Whimsicott and Tornadus-I can do it better? It just seems massively outclassed to me.
  9. youngjake93

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    Well.. it's bulkier than Sableye, Featherdance is 100 accuracy+it stacks and you can still status them. Also, Murkrow has a tiny bit of an offensive presence unlike Sableye and a much faster Snarl. You also have the EQ immunity.
    Plus, Murkrow can do all those things rather than just one of them. And yea.. like you said it has Quash if all that isn't good enough for you. Quash can make Kyurem-B beat Latios, almost guarantee TR, get a spore in before it can hit, etc.

    I personally think that Featherdance is reason enough though. The 100% accuracy and stacking with burns and intimidate can make specially bulky mons indestructible.
  10. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Flapper the Zubat = best scramblemon
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    I can't really say much about Murkrow's usefulness, having used zero and faced less than three in my Doubles career. I'd like to throw in a good word on Genesect though. Its speed isn't exactly kind to it in singles, but in Doubles it's a monster. On my Hail team (you can probably see where this is headed already), I generally lead Hitmontop / Genesect and scout with U-Turn, bringing it back in on resisted moves or after kills. With either boost I get, I can deal some damage, either through more U-Turn or (if the weather is in my favor) Blizzard. Thunderbolt is also nice, letting Genesect dish out some damage to opposing Politoed. When Genesect's role is done, it even gets Explosion.
  11. StarmanXL

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    I have also used Genesect on my trick room team and it does make a good lead when paired with an intimidate and fake out user (in my case Scrafty because he's a mother fucking boss), being able to do some good damage or scout first turn with u-turn. I often use it against opposing tr teams by uturning first turn into my own tr sweeper while they set up tr, letting me soften them up for my new poke to clean. If you're particularly daring you can pull off a double intimidate by withdrawing your intimidate mon amd immediately u turning them back in.

    I find Giga Drain to be more useful than tbolt since ice beam/blizzard hits fliers anyway and giga drain lets you fuck up gastrodon and mitigate life orb damage. Not too jazzed on explosion though. I wonder if it could pull off rock polish... Probably not.
  12. Mizuhime

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    i'd like to point out that pocket forgot one of the best team mates in existence for Chandy in mamoswine. Mamoswine can deal with every pokemon that gives it a hard time bar the bulky waters, ohkoing heatran and any dragon that resists fire stab
  13. youngjake93

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    I think it works best in a FWG core tbh. Bulky waters with ice coverage deal with Heatran, Dragons and Tyranitar, while providing a way to stall momentum from water attack spammers/rain teams. Suicune was particularly useful. It carries all the right tools for the job, even Roar for boosters and water types. Grass types on the other hand, give you a flash fire lure, give Heatran a reason to stay in for you to dispatch of it and destroy water types. Ferrothorn was nice to use as it could also deal with Dragons and could handle both of Tyranitar's STABs. It also SCREAMED "use a fire or fighting attack on me so that Chandelure can come in safely and potentially with a boost". =]

    The only thing is that Chandelure doesn't fit nicely on archetypal teams. It shares weaknesses with hail, sun AND sandstorm teams, is too fast for TR, is hindered in rain. T-Wave/Tail Wind teams and balanced teams appreciate Chandelure though if the synergy is right.
  14. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    I got bored again so I just responded to things I saw here. Lots of good things being talked about. Some things I scratched my head at but still, Landorus-T and Chandelure discussion is a LOT more productive than Shuckle and Mantine discussion >_<, even Murkrow is a better idea than that stuff. None of the comments are meant to offend or attack anyone, I'm simply pointing out things and trying to keep this not too boring of a read for anyone who actually reads these. You are more than welcome to make fun of me for losing an hour and a half of sleep typing this and stuff and for being a nerd. I encourage that, actually X]

    Anyways, it's all hidden to save space. Read on O:
    @Pocket
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    Yup. Chandelure is a pretty great mon.

    @Starman
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    This is the train of thought that makes me absolutely despise Gastrodon. It's the biggest noob trap in the game right now. Gastrodon does NOT counter rain, it simply slows it down a bit. It's obviously useful against anything with water moves, but Politoed just Helping Hands Kingdra's Draco Meteor and your sluggy friend is a goner. Also, a smart player will easily predict the obvious Gastrodon switches and proceed to punish the OBVIOUSLY SNEAKY PLAYER who thought they got a free +1. Finally, it doesn't stop Surf or Muddy Water from hitting your partner, and even at +1 Gastrodon isn't going to go Hulk mode and dominate a well-rounded team, so most people don't give a shit, kill the partner with Muddy Water, and proceed to deal with the aforementioned slug afterward.

    @Starman
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    "FIRST GEN IS ONLY GEN /jizz nostalgia" said the fanboy. Read Starman's quote again if you love Charizard more than playing well and if your name isn't Firestorm.

    @Joim
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    I'm assuming this comment was a response to someone asking the question "what loses to half of the common metagame threats instantly?"

    @Audiosurfer
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    I like the prospect of Swampert, but I really don't know how it's going to find a niche here other than Wide Guarding with Gastrodon around doing essentially the same thing. I know Swagger + Lum Swampert ended up getting 2nd at worlds in the Seniors division in VGC, but even that is hard to get going consistently. It is definitely viable and has a good utility use, but the fact that Gastrodon exists and Swampert is phased by Intimidate don't aid its case too much. It pairs well with Volcarona though, I'll give you that for sure.

    Of anything here, the set/spread you provided was the most concerning part of this. The EV spread isn't based on any calculations (I didn't see anything it did with that spread mentioned) and its items aren't explained in terms of how it benefits from them. What does Ground Gem allow it to do that it couldn't otherwise? What would Sitrus Berry provide in terms of bulk that it wouldn't get without it? What OHKOs would Rindo prevent? Give a few quick calcs against commonly used mons just to show that it could stand its own in the metagame. Also, tweak the spread so that it uses EVs more efficiently. Your item and your spread work together to give you success with your set!

    Here's something I'd recommend if you're using Swampert. I don't know a lot of common sets on the legendaries that are not allowed in VGC yet, so I need to touch up on those (especially Skymin, Genesect, and Kyurem-B), but I'll use some still very common other mons here.

    Swampert @ Sitrus Berry / Ground Gem / Rindo Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe 252HP / 116ATK / 4DEF / 84SDEF / 52SPE
    Adamant/Brave Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Wide Guard / Protect
    - Rock Slide / Ice Beam / Protect Ice Punch

    Ironically, 252hp and 4sdef with a Rindo Berry allows you to survive all 252/Modest +1 Ludicolo Giga Drains (in case you see someone running wide guard bait version of bog rain.) However, it would be safe to invest 252 in HP and 84 in SDef so you can take all Latios Dragon Gem Draco Meteors. Defensively, simply 4 EVs with 252HP allows you to take all Fighting Gem Gallade Close Combats. 52 EVs in Speed allow you to speed creep 4 Speed EV Scizor (commonly used in Singles, and apparently people don't know yet that it's very overrated in doubles >_> so you have to check it.)

    Putting the remaining 116 EVs in attack along with making Swampert Adamant allows it to 2HKO bulky Tyranitar (252HP / 36DEF) with Waterfall. Ice Beam and Rock Slide are not optimal here.

    Stone Edge misses too often to be good in a best of 1-style format. Ice Punch outclasses Ice Beam far and away on Swampert, not sure why that was not brought up right away here since Ice Beam is 1) weaker in general on Swampert with its much lesser special attack and 2) weakened even more by an Adamant nature (which is needed for EQ or Waterfall to do anything). Icy Wind is okay for support, but you better damn well hope you don't forget to not use it against a team with Tornadus or Bisharp, or you are DONE. Protect and Wide Guard can't be used turn after turn, so pick one or the other depending on your team's needs.

    @Frog
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    Landorus-T is definitely one of the top mons in this format, and even if you don't want to use one, at least playtest a little with it to understand how it works, it's pretty hard to beat in the hands of a decent player.

    @Frog
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    Well what do you know, we have a list o:

    @youngjake
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    Two things:

    In response to the first paragraph, this is the same thing as the Gastrodon argument. Sure, you get a boost, but your other Pokemon gets KO'd or has to cower in a corner during this. Also, your opponent likely has another mon out on the field to harass Chandelure/Heatran.

    @ the second paragraph, you're looking too heavily at those people using a six mon dedicated team. That's a really bad singles habit, the best way to look at teams is by trying to identify how it was built in order to understand its synergy. Some teams just use extremely bad typing (ex: bog rain with Toed/Kingdra/Ludicolo/Toxicroak/Vaporeon/Gastrodon. Thundurus appreciates your kind invitation to allow him to annihilate you.), while others use really poorly thought out borderline gimmicks (STRAIGHT Trick Room with 3-4 setters, no Fake Out / Follow Me / Taunt, cannot do anything outside of TR). Try to understand the other team in order to know how it'll be played and how to take it out, and identify it on a mon-by-mon basis if you notice it's not really poorly built (poorly built teams I've seen are typically heavily singles-influenced, or in the worst cases, nostalgia-driven).

    @Exeggutor
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    MAMOSWINE IS GREAT. It does work really well with Chandelure, the only issue I ever have with that combo is wanting to EQ but having an annoying lighting fixture in my way.

    Anyone who hasn't yet, give it a try. I purposely overly-obsess over the swine since it's my favorite Pokemon, and I would consider it less of a threat than it is in Singles, but it still is very strong and can most teams can benefit from its offensive prowess. It's best to use Sash (or Life Orb if you have very good protection for it) with Icicle Spear/Shard/EQ/Protect (Substitutes and Yache Berries are very common). Sash lets it live another turn in most situations to fire off another Ice Shard if need be, or attack again if it has some speed control.

    @youngjake
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    Lol, you're going to get taunted either way. Having a very weak offensive move such as Snarl, especially on a not very fast Pokemon, is not going to hinder anyone from Taunting that thing. Thundurus and Whimsicott are far too common right now and absolutely body Murkrow. It's okay when it's not getting taunted, but it, well, gets taunted. It also dies very quickly, Whimsicott has more general bulk than it since its typing is not so bad.

    It's an extremely hard to use Pokemon that doesn't have a use on the extreme vast majority of teams. Maybe a team or two could benefit from it, but I doubt it's worth the hassle.

    @Pocket
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    ^this

    @Pocket
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    ...Soft Sand? I want what you're having. (But really, wat?)

    Superpower is pretty much only good on Scarf sets. No real use for it otherwise. BE WARY OF STONE EDGE, even though it is a solid move typically. It just tends to miss. A lot.

    Ground Gem and Life Orb are decent but typically not optimal. Sash, Yache, and Scarf are the most commonly run sets in VGC, and nothing in this metagame really would signal that those three items are worth changing up. Leave the Normal Gem Exploding to Metagross if you're gonna want to go boom.

    (@Pocket)
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    You probably should give Bio credit for that Chandelure synergy stuff, considering everything you mentioned was on the team he used in SPL >_<.)
  15. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Regarding Snarl Murkrow, I'd rather use Darkrai, which is a bit underrated in this meta. Snarl won't deal great damage, but playing along a Intimidate mon or a Rage Powder / Follow me user, Darkrai can survive hits, lower Special Attacks forcing switches and dealing strong blows with Dark Pulse. Not the best, but it's worthy of consideration.

    PD: Yeah Seaking sucks, Soak is still fun and I wish some good mon learned it.
  16. Audiosurfer

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    Braverius, the set wasn't meant to be one with any exact calculations. It's simply a basic spread that's meant to maximize Swampert's bulk and attack, so how that's "concerning" is beyond me. It's not meant to meet any specific benchmarks, it's simply the set from the VGC analysis. The main goal of the post wasn't to give everyone a Swampert set to use so much as discuss Swampert's niches and what it can be used for in a team. And as for the items, while something like Ground Gem I can understand on the calculations part, something like Sitrus Berry is simply used to give it more staying power, not just on this set but on many others, so why I'd need a specific calculation to advocate its use is beyond me. Also, on the topic of Ice Beam, it's meant to be used with the Brave Nature, so the 2nd point on it is sorta mute. And why Ice Beam is listed before Ice Punch is that Ice Punch (and Icy Wind) are illegal with Wide Guard. And in terms of the surviving Ludicolo part, Swampert has nothing it can hit Ludicolo with anyways, so surviving a Giga Drain isn't too useful if you can't do anything back (You could get off a Wide Guard, but that would work anyways due to increased priority).

    However, I do think the edits make a nice reminder on the topic of EVing. I think it'd benefit a lot of people playing Doubles if you perhaps gave some advice on the topic of EVing a mon in Doubles and how one goes about that, since it would help some of the newer players alot. Making your pokes hit specific benchmarks can be even more crucial when your partner might be counting on a certain pokemon to survive or do its job, so it's definitely something people need to keep in mind.
  17. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
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    I actually ran into an Umbreon during the VGCS tour. It was quite an interesting sight; besides being insanely bulky and having access to a nice moveset in the form of Snarl/Moonlight/Toxic/Protect (yeah that was its set), it also has Inner Focus, which is actually a pretty big boon (since it can't get Faked Out... yeah... I think you may have caught that)

    This got me thinking. In a Nugget Bridge video I've seen a Furret being used, so I was hoping to (try to) be creative. I decided to look through the list of Inner Focus Pokemon just for the heck of it, and I found Hypno. This is just theorymon so far, but it seems to have a good/passable support movepool, including Thunder Wave, Toxic, Trick Room, Switcheroo/Trick, and the most interesting Disable (subject to further discussion... I might test this eventually). And yes, it has Inner Focus. So it can't get Faked Out, most importantly when trying to set up Trick Room.

    Thoughts?
  18. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    Dusclops / Dusknoir set up Trick Room and can't be Faked Out. I think Inner Focus mons should have something over Ghost types.
  19. youngjake93

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    Hypno is pretty much outclassed vastly by Dusclops as pointed out by Joim. On the topic of inner focus, it seems as if Crobat and Sneasel are the only two mons other than Umbreon that have niche use of it. Sneasel has already seen lots of use as a Beat Up partner/Fake Out user.
    However, Crobat gets me thinking. 130 base speed Taunt is obvious and its nice that it can't be flinched in doubles. You also have Acrobatics and Super Fang as noted by the VGC analysis. I was thinking though... would Wide Lens Hypnosis+Victory Star or possibly just using Gravity work out? A super fast sleep move without being flinched is pretty sweet. You also aren't forced to run Sun or Trick Room to accomplish this(although you need accuracy support unless you are ballsy).
  20. StarmanXL

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    Ok maybe I worded that wrong but the fact remains that gastrodon is a good mon for sandstorm teams and being able to draw water attacks, even if it just makes the enemy think twice about using them and makes it easier to get your Tyranitar back in it's useful. What would you suggest sandstorm teams run, then, to get the leg up on rain teams?

    Also never said that seaking was good only that abusing soak is fun, that’s all. About the viability chart, like we said before it's a good start but it would be nice to have a project where we both have the rankings but can also see the basis behind them from community discussion and consensus.
  21. BlankZero

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    Actually, a Seaking with Lightningrod + Choice Specs Zapdos spamming Discharge on a rain team might be fun with Seaking using Soak to hit the peeps coming in to try being immune to the electric spam and making them take double damage.

    Those 2 might make a very fun Rain Team.

    Also, using Thunderus-T mould be more powerful, but possibly unneeded due to Soak.
  22. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    If anything, I think it's even less important than it is in singles (where I still don't think it's that important). You're so likely to take random chip damage from spread moves or taking advantage of resistances that any 100-0 damage calculation is unreliable at best. EVing bulky crap to survive Draco Meteors is about the best you can do consistently. In singles, you're more likely to get the matchup you want and have the calculation hold true because your opponent doesn't have a second mon to hit you with when they switch the other one out.
  23. StarmanXL

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    I have come to the conclusion that After You is way cool and best used on goodstuff teams where you don't load your team fulla super slow pokes for no reason.

    Do we have speed tiers, or should we just play off of the VGC ones?
  24. Bent1ey

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    Is anyone currently using Tangrowth in this format? Great defenses + Chlorophyl or Regenerator + Rage Powder sounds interesting all in all.
  25. StarmanXL

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    I've been considering using it, but I really just haven't found a way to fit him onto a team. Typically Amoongus has the bulky grass with rage powder thing down pact, especially since it gets the more reliable spore.
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