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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Well after you+fous punch is pretty much the same thing as helping hand hammer arm, but with worse distribution and less reliability.
    If you want to hit faster then there are better forms of speed control like paralysis, tail wind, icy wind, and trick room
  2. Agonist

    Agonist He had seen it, felt it's might, bent under
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  3. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    That's a really crazy match. Muddy Water is so trolltastic though, so it was a great match overall I think.
  4. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Hate Cress? Wanna see what will make you hate it more?

    I present to you...

    RestTalkCMCress!

    *Warning: Replay Contains Strong Language*

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpAtk
    Bold Nature
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Calm Mind
    -Ice Beam

    This guy is designed to be a Comeback Kid, not a midgame tank or sweeper. CM up as soon as your opponent's Bug/Dark/Ghost types are safely gone, and begin the wreckage. Toxic got you down? Rest clears status and with Sleep Talk, you can still get either more boosts off or fire off the not-often-resisted Ice Beam at +whatever. Then, once you awaken, either rest off the sustained sleeping damage, or boost, or fire off again! It's very trolly, but it really does work.

    I know sometimes I post sets that don't seem to work 100% of the time, but this one works better than CM Moonlight Cress in the sun, as it can't be worn down with Toxic or Burn, which was the bane of CMCress.

    It pairs well with a heavy offensive threat like Kyub or DeoA, as the opponent will focusfire at it instead, leaving Cress to slowly and silently become a Behemoth.

    Threats to this set?

    -Suckerpunch SD Bisharp
    -CB Bug Bite/U-Turn Scizor
    -Darkrai
    -TTar
    -Scarf Landorus carrying U-Turn

    Hitmontop would be a fantastic partner to this set, killing off most of these threats, as well as Steel Types that resist Ice Beam. Cress can kill off any Flying types threatening Top, like Tornadus-I and Crobat (seeing quite a few of them lately.) You can also run Chandelure to take care of walls and Bulky Psychic Types, though Top would still be needed for the Dark Types.
  5. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    My main qualm with that set Blankzero is that if I wanted to use a boosting Cress, why not use something like Chestorest? On your set you lack a STAB move (which is a pretty big problem for any sweeper), while a Chestorest set would have room for STAB + a coverage move. While you can only get rid of status once, you usually wont need any more times, as you can set up and wait till you're low on health to Rest, then KO the status user and continue your rampage.

    On top of the lack of a STAB however, that Cresselia set has the weakness of just about every RestTalk user, which is that you may be forced to switch before you have woken up, leaving you with a mon that's essentially dead weight. Also, Sleep Talk isn't always reliable in terms of move selection which can be crucial in the difference between getting another boost and being KOed. So yeah, not a bad set, but I think it's outclassed by the other options.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I've done ChestoRest on this as well, but this RestTalk really works well as an endgame wall when you're down to your last Mon. It's by no means perfect, but it is quite a wall. If only I could run a 5th move.

    Also, I would run STAB, but MonoAttacking Ice has better coverage than MonoAttacking Psychic. Honestly, I usually run Moonlight and Toxic, or just rest and toxic and just let Cress be hit a few times while asleep, as her bulk is ridiculous already. I guess you could run CM/Psyshock/Ice Beam/Rest with Chesto Berry, but then you lose Lefties recovery. It's really a toss up and whatever set you run will reflect on what team you're running. I'll do some more testing, but this Cress isn't terrible. I just felt like, with Rest, she was healed and then deadweight for 2 turns. At least this way she has an option to use while she naps.
  7. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    I feel as if that Cresselia set was made to destroy in tier shift with like Terrakion as a partner or even bulk up scrafty!
    In doubles.. Meh, it can get forced out too fast and doesn't get nice stat boosts or 1v1 match ups.
  8. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Read again. It's not made to come out and sweep. It's a trump card for when you need to wall up a bit and stall out an opponent at the end of a match. It can be forced out yes, but so can any setup Mon.
  9. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    I remember one time in singles (and gen 4 to boot), I couldn't kill some goofy Charge Beam Cresselia as it slowly boosted itself to +6. I stalled it out with Jirachi because it simply doesn't do any damage, especially with defense EVs in mind. It's a poor imitation of Latias, who can more reliably utilize its STAB and has a much higher base offensive capability.

    And it has a harder time setting up in doubles to boot. You're better off with Helping Hand if you want to punish an opponent for ignoring your Cresselia, which players are (or at least I am) wont to do since it usually doesn't pose a serious threat itself.
  10. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I dunno man, with the ability to set up screens and helping hand and icy wind and trick room and thunder wave, Cress is definitely a mon I would want dead sooner rather than later, so you can't really rely on the enemy ignoring it.
  11. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Has anyone tried using Tornadus-Therian at all? It's not banned in Doubles...
  12. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    I haven't used it, but I think its real problem is that Tornadus-I does things better. All Tornadus-T has going for it is Regenerator, which is cool, but not cool enough. You want a tailwind user? Tornadus-I does it better. You want a rain setter and abuser? Tornadus-I does it better. Pure damage? Tornadus-I has better offenses. Speed? Tornadus-T wins there, but really they're both really fast. Want to try a physical set? Tornadus-I wins because it gets Defiant to fuck over the glut of Intimidate users. Really, I'm just not sure what niche Tornadus-T can eke out for himself in this meta.
  13. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    It's really kind of sad that the only 2 "Uber" I see anymore are DeoA and Skymin. It's like the things that were too powerful for OU Singles are just not up to par in Doubles.

    That being said, Torn-T still has a killer SleepTalk set.
  14. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Why is that sad at all? I don't see anything wrong with that (besides, Genesect is pretty good, and Excadrill is a must for any sand team). Also I'm skeptical of SleepTalk--I can't imagine it being too reliable and it's not like Torn-T has the defenses and typing for repeated resting.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, Tornadus-I will see more use than Tornadus-T for number of reasons. Firstly it has better abilities in DEFIANT and Prankster. Secondly, it packs more power, allowing to do cool things like scoring a KO on Latios with Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics! Tornadus-T's Regenerator and Speed really doesn't compare to such advantages.

    I started making a new team to test out CM HydraRest Manaphy:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Manaphy @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Rest

    It was a bit harder to use than I have expected. First of all, it needs at least +2 CMs to really get going, so Rage Powder / Follow Me support is particularly beneficial. Amoonguss is the best mon for this, because it can soak Electric and Grass-type assaults with ease. Lightning Rod user is another nifty support to shield Manaphy from concentrated Electric attacks while it's setting up. Against a defensive team, it's quite easy to grab those boosts on Manaphy. Offensive teams oftentimes wont allow Manaphy to set up willy nilly, though, so you'd want a plan B. It's quite frustrating that I cannot fit Protect on this set (I need Ice Beam for Gastrodon), which would help buy time when facing offensive teams. Kyurem-Black in particular is annoying, because it can usually tear through Amoongus and Manectric (my LRod user) without a thought to get to Manaphy. Definitely have a strong checks to dragons like Kyurem-Black (and to a lesser extent Latios / Hydreigon). And of course don't forget Politoed ;)

    I tested this team with some of the peeps at #doubles (thanks guys :>)

    vs Pwnemon - showcases where Manaphy couldn't pull its weight ;( Kyurem-Bitch negated LRod fml
    vs Mr.lol - faced a gimmicky team; he didn't mount a strong enough offense to stop Manaphy from grabbing boosts.
  16. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

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    Hey guys I just posted an rmt; I figured you might be interested so I decided to post about it here. Here's a preview:

    Show Hide
    Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Tailwind
    - Protect

    El Presidente (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 100 HP / 184 Atk / 224 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Crunch
    - Rock Slide
    - Stone Edge
    - Protect

    Predator (Genesect) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam

    The Nuclear Option (Victini) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Victory Star
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - V-create
    - U-turn
    - Bolt Strike
    - Brick Break

    Chief of Staff (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Timid Nature
    - Tailwind
    - Heal Pulse
    - Draco Meteor
    - Helping Hand

    M16 (Breloom) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Spore
    - Protect


    Also there may be a big post about tailwind coming here in the near future, but I'm too tired to write it now.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Another powerful newcomer graces Doubles! My appreciation for Victini doubled (no pun intended >_<) from watching your replays (and facing Joim's Sun TR team ;(). For a team that is pimping with Victini, it's quite hard-walled by Heatran, though. Genesect & Victini may be great Tailwind sweepers, but they are probably not meant to be used on a same team ;x

    You peaked #1 and not me, so you probably know what you're doing more than me, though, lol
  18. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
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    Good team, but over that, good player. Let's see if I can peak #1 too someday with my current team or a new one :X
  19. Bidoofs Crazy Videos

    Bidoofs Crazy Videos

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    Does anybody think that a thread like this will ever be made for triple battles, or will they remain competitive solely to random match-up Wi-Fi?
  20. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Specially Defensive Vaporeon seems to wall a good majority of the Metagame, bar Ferrothorn, Thundy, Specs Jolteon, and.... Not much else really. It's so bulky, and with access to Acid Armor, HydraRest, Scald and Toxic, you can pair it next to Ferrothorn on a RainStall team and wall just about anything currently in wide use.

    Just to show you how strong this fucking thing is...

    I've been testing out the WolfeTran with Sunny Day Support Cress. It was doing very well actually, but then it came down to me versus this bastard Vaporeon with max Special Defense. Even in the Sun with Helping Hand, I had no way of breaking it.

    Heat Wave: 21.38 - 25.26%

    Earth Power: 22.89 - 26.99%


    76+ SpA Heatran Helping Hand Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 106-125 (22.89 - 26.99%) -- possible 5HKO

    POSSIBLE 5HKO

    Jesus Christ Vaporeon.

    And in Doubles, the vast majority of attackers are Specially based due to Spread Damage.
  21. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Possible but doubtful at best.
  22. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    There is a thread like this for triple battles that refers to the Wi-Fi triple battles.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447632. It's not a Smogon-made triples metagame though.

    I think if Smogon userbase's grows large enough, there may be a Smogon metagame made for triple battles in Gen IV, but definitely not for the time being.


    Also Cease Tick, great team you have there! Congrats on getting to #1! Have you considered Sitrus Berry over Leftovers on Latias? Latias doesn't have a move to prolong its survivability, and given that, I'd suspect that Latias would prefer the quick healing from Sitrus than Leftovers, especially if it wants to get off a quick Tailwind or Heal Pulse before fainting.
  23. BlankZero

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    Bringing up the Deoxys-A discussion a bit again.

    Has anyone tried running Dark Pulse on it? It was released in Japan (will be available in US this May).

    Can Deo-A drop it's ESpeed/Coverage Move to fit in Dark Pulse for those annoying bulky Psychics?

    252SpAtk Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+SpDef): 32% - 39% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    Fuck Cresselia anyhow with a rake. Let's look at some less ridiculous psychic types out there...

    252SpAtk Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 66% - 78% (282 - 332 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Looks like Bulky/OTR Reuniclus gets nerfed by it. Running ESpeed next to it though...

    252Atk Deoxys (Neutral) ExtremeSpeed vs 252HP/0Def Reuniclus (Neutral): 33% - 39% (141 - 167 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    Looks like even if it gets the Trick Room off (it shouldn't if you run a Fake Out/Taunt Partner like Sableye or Weavile) you'll 99% KO it before it can retaliate. Unless you seriously low roll both times, you have a minimum 99% damage done. Not too bad for one of the bulkier Psychics in the Meta.

    It also got Nasty Plot from the same event. I was wondering...would Deo-D become a reliable setup sweeper with a combo of Dark Pulse/NP/Psychic/Agility? Let's look.

    252SpAtk +2 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 68% - 81% (292 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Looks promising. After 1 NP, Deo-D can 2HKO Reuniclus.

    And for lolz?

    252SpAtk +6 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Levitate Cresselia (+SpDef): 68% - 81% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    FUCK YOU CRESS!

    Honestly, I could see running Deo-D as a late-game sweeper now that NP and Dark Pulse have been released. This is mostly Theorymonning at the moment, but I do plan on testing it on the ladder a bit, and maybe some more after OMPL is over.

    What are your opinions on it?
  24. StarmanXL

    StarmanXL

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    Deoxys already had access to Shadow Ball for psychics so I don't see how this changes much anything. Also that Deo-D would get fucked over by dark and steel types pretty badly, I would think. I would rather just use something that could hit things hard off the bat than have to rely on NP for Deo-D.
  25. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    To Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball, I say: no. You run Ice Beam because so many threats are weak/quad weak to Ice and get instantly murdered by it without worrying about a stat drop, you run Psycho Boost because it hits like a fucking truck, and you run Superpower because otherwise steel types would laugh at your face.

    Deoxys-A just doesn't have the room. Everything it would try to kill with it are stupidly bulky fuckers regardless.

    Also Deo-D is both too slow to run a NP set, and too fast to run a NP set in TR. Just not worth it.
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