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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    It might be a typo, since when making my set I just used +0 Max Atk to calc, although you could potentially get there through Swagger + Lum Berry.

    Anyways, here are some additional benchmarks I thought of that could be useful to consider:
    benchmarks (open)
    Attack Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
    - Max HP Tyranitar (with or without Sand for Special Attacks)
    - Max HP Politoed
    - Max HP Hitmontop (with or without Intimidate for Physical sets)
    - Max HP Gastrodon

    Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)
    Physical:
    - Adamant +1 Dragon Claw from Kyurem-B
    - Flying Gem Acrobatics from Tornadus
    - Earthquake from Garchomp
    - Earthquake from Excadrill (factoring in Sand damage)

    Special
    - Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Hydreigon
    - Hydro Pump from Kingdra (with or without Rain)
    - Blizzard from Abomasnow
    - Thunderbolt from Zapdos
    - Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Salamence
    - Heat Wave / Eruption from Heatran (in or out of Sun)
    - Blizzard from Kyurem
    - Shadow Ball from Chandelure

    Speed Benchmark
    - Max Speed Base 70s (to check Breloom and Ludicolo outside of Rain)
    - Negative Base 30s under Trick Room (check Amoonguss, Reuniclus, Slowking)
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yep, Metagross is one of the most common recipient of the Swagger + Lum combo, since it has Clear Body to ignore Intimidate.

    I decided to work on my mental herb Dusknoir's EV spread, but I was disappointed by how restricted its defensive capabilities were, no matter how optimal the spread you come up with. I decided to work on a spread for Eviolite Dusclops spread instead!

    [​IMG]
    Dusclops (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 52 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Sunny Day
    - Disable / Will-O-Wisp

    ~ survives Gem Shadow Ball from Modest Chandelure. This is the strongest special attack it must fear outside of Gem Psycho Boost from Rash Deoxys-A (3/16 chance to OHKO)
    ~ survives Gem Crunch from Adamant Tyranitar after sand damage. This is the strongest physical move it will encounter outside of CB / Gem V-create from Adamant Victini in the sun (5/16 chance to OHKO)

    Those EV benchmarks just reflect the improved bulk of Eviolite Dusclops compared to Dusknoir, who cannot hope to survive Tyranitar's Gem Crunch or Chandelure's Gem Shadow Ball even with maximum investment in respective defenses.

    It's interesting to note that unlike VGC, Doubles need to be wary of additional benchmarks of exclusive threats, such as Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A and V-create from Victini, which I daresay are moves whose power are unfounded in VGC.
  3. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    You're missing 4 EVs in your set. You can put them into SpD to lower the chance of being OHKOed by Deo-A's Gem +nature Psycho Boost to 12.5%.

    I think 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD Relaxed nature is a better spread to guarantee survive from Deo-A's Psycho Boost. You will still always survive Dark Gem Ttar's Crunch (65.49 - 78.16%) plus a couple of sandstorm turns. It gives you better mixed stats and a higher SpD (which is more useful in doubles than Def) without letting you lose bonus Def points. And to top it off, it only has an increase in 1/16 chance of being OHKOed by Adamant Band/Gem Victini's V-create in sun (37.5% chance total instead of 31.25%); Jolly still can't OHKO and unlike Psycho Boost this KO can be avoided with Intimidate support or by removing the sun with a teammate (provided you have the right teammates).
  4. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    That Lilligant spread lists the opposing weather starters that it kills, what it dents, and the extra bulk helps it survive Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam just in case that Leaf Storm's 90% accuracy let's me down.

    Other than that, it's just bulky and max speed (minus nature).
  5. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    This is pretty great. Never really thought about it this way, honestly, and not sure why, since this totally makes sense.


    Also do yourself a favor if you want to get over the hump: STOP THROWING THINGS INTO OBJECTIVE CATEGORIES. This is my biggest pet peeve, and it's probably mostly from singles, since that's apparently a thing there. I hear too many people talking about "sweepers" and "trick room" and "weather" and whatever else they want to categorize 6 mons as. STOP. Just identify things for what they are, don't try to stuff them in a 'role'. Each Pokemon should be able to take care of almost anything you need it to, or at least offer a niche to help a partner take care of the problematic Pokemon. If you're thinking "how does my team set up?" you're doing it so, so wrong.

    Pretty much 70% of the people I play on the ladder completely disregard what their opponent is doing and blindly set up their own strategy...or they do look at what the opponent is doing, and then categorize each Pokemon. "Oh Volcarona is ur sweepur." Yes, clearly, Volcarona's ONLY use is to Quiver up once or twice and proceed to OHKO everything it can before it dies, and the other mons are only pawns in the game to help out the moth SWEEP through things. Let's just ignore that it could also use Rage Powder, Safeguard, or any of the assortment of decent niche moves it could use and LABEL it. (sarcastic rants are great)

    People will also claim "well I'm focusing on the other team cause I'm using weather to beat weather lolol!!!11" Cool, congrats on using a gimmick to beat a gimmick. Honestly, if you're relying on 'rain' or 'sun' or 'sand', especially in a format where all six Pokemon are used, you're setting yourself up for failure- the opponent makes one deft play, and your "weather teem" is scratched. Also, by deeming that weather is the reason your opponent is winning, you're completely taking away from the strategy of the game and focusing on team matchups, of which Singles are way more heavy on due to the trends that have developed there. Focus on HOW you play, not WHO you play. That is what makes double battles great- the strategy being more diverse and in-depth.


    Bleh I hate making posts like that, but I don't know how else to explain this. Trying to categorize things is completely pointless and can only make the game less competitive and more about flipping coins, and doesn't help you develop as a player, as you're not looking at yourself and how you play...you're looking only at teams and how you match up against them. There's a good balance in between that the game allows for, try to keep it there!
  6. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    This was the last post on the previous page and it seemed to have slipped people's eyes completely.
  7. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    If you checked through the OP, you would see that Braverius already made one of these. It's not a Viability Ranking Thread per se, but it is a good guideline as to the viability of various Pokemon in the metagame for newer players.

    Also, I agree with Braverius's post. All too often, people make subpar plays in order to get up a certain field condition or something, when there may be a more efficient and concise method of victory available to them. However, in terms of battling, while you shouldn't just try to win the weather war for the sake of winning the weather war, if your team is weak to certain Pokemon in their respective weather, (Kingdra in Rain or Excadrill in Sand or something) it's also important to try and handle those threats as best as you can, so if keeping them out of their primary weather is the best method you have of dealing with them, you should still attempt to do so. Senseless weather wars suck, but the other side of the spectrum can also be faulty, so as Braverius said it's important to analyze your opponent's overall strategy when forming your plans.
  8. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Another note is this.

    No matter what, play to make your strategy come out on top. Whether this means disrupting your opponent's strategy with Whimsicott, or by resetting a weather purely because without doing so, you'll lose. Play head games too. Swapping your Heatran into a fire move will demoralize an opponent and probably bring out their Tran counter the next turn, making your predictions easier, making it even easier to play more head games.
  9. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    This advice is actually exactly in opposition to what Zach, Asurfer, and I were saying and is also very unsound. Resetting rain when I didn't need to is probably the cause of 2/3 of my losses; however, leaving Toed in when the weather isn't in my favor, using it as the supportive physical tank it was supposed to be, instead of just a raincloud, almost always works out. I dearly hope you were being sarcastic...?
  10. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    ------------------------------
    ------------------------------
    My post didn't cover this, but mind games aren't what you do in the battle, they're what you do outside of the battle- talking to your opponent, reading their reactions, etc. This is easier to do in live competitions than online, obviously, but just typing online can do enough. Any competent player is going to understand the damage rolls from that Heat Wave, and anyone with a bit of self control will analyze the situation effectively and make the right play instead of panicking like you assume everyone does. Whether the final move is switching into their Heatran check or not completely depends on the situation and the player's style.
    ------------------------------
    tl;dr (especially necessary here), Pwnemon's post.
  11. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Just want to introduce my favorite combo now that I have a returning interest in doubles:

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 196 HP / 200 Def / 112 Spd (Inefficent Spread?)
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Protect
    [​IMG]
    Breloom (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Helping Hand / Low Sweep / Stone Edge
    ______________________________________
    [​IMG]
    Latios (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Psych Up
    - Protect


    Outside of their shared weakness to Flying, Volcarona and Breloom have very good synergy when it comes to spread moves. Most of the spread moves that attempt to hit Volcarona hard Breloom can capitalize on with a strong attack or Sleep. Most of the time I use both Breloom and Volcarona to lead off together. Usually the massive threat of Sleep pushes the opponent to focus their attention on Breloom (paticularly Fake Out) giving me the opportunity to set up a handy dandy Quiver Dance to strike at the opponent. Protect on Volcarona and Focus Sash on Breloom are used just in case I need to buy a turn. The threat of Spore is also a good stop to some Trick Room setting combinations. The last slot for Breloom is tough, but right now I am leaning towards Low Sweep to get a more powerful STAB move. Helping Hand can be used in tandem with Heat Wave and Stone Edge to challenge opposing Dragnoites and Chandelures.

    In terms of offensive synergy, Breloom and Volcarona could not get any better outside of the elusive Dragonite and Chandelure. Breloom's Bullet Seed takes down those mean water types that attempt to put a halt to Volcarona's sweep. Mach Punch is essential for nailing Terrakion hard before it can Rock Slide. This goes doubly for Excadrill and Kingdra that can outspeed Volcarona in their respective weathers even with a QD under the belt. Heatran is also taken care of by Breloom's Fighting-STAB. Meanwhile, Volcarona is destroying Breloom's most common walls: Lati@s, Cresselia, and Amoonguss. Most teams crumble to their combination of power + inability to get hit.

    Latios is my addition to the Volcarona+Breloom combo of setting up. I have talked about pairing Latios+Volcarona in the past and man o' man it can be deadly. Latios adds speed to the offensive core. Latios with Psyshock and Dragon Pulse in hand can easily deal with Breloom's and Volcarona's biggest checks respectively: Dragonite and Terrakion. It's phenomenal speed also means it can grab Volcarona's boosts before the majority of Pokemon can attack. This is especially useful for surviving stray Ice Beams. The coolest part about Psych Up Latios is that Volcarona can Protect itself while safely setting up by copying its boosts!

    I have two matches with leading off with the core VS audiosurfer and nyttyn. While the second match Breloom doesn't do very much, I certainly feel that nyttyn felt the pressure of Breloom's Spore incoming, which forced him to keep Latios in. This allowed for Volcarona to grab a QD. Similarly, the first match shows the pressure of Breloom when audiosurfer went after Breloom immediately with Fake Out + Heat Wave.

    Audiosurfer:http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19874125
    nyttyn:http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19878349

    EDIT: Another game (maybe the best?) on the ladder that really illustrates the power of Volcarona+Breloom: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19901686
  12. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe

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    Great call- I absolutely love this combo in both VGC and 6v6 Doubles. It's ridiculously good at taking out some of the most common threats. While it's somewhat easy to read, its efficiency and power make up for that predictability.

    I'm not a fan of that bulky of a Volcarona, but I've used that moveset forever. It typically is better when you can outspeed things and Quiver up quickly to get the Special Defense boost rather than waiting to take a hit. The defense is more of a singles thing, apparently, as I saw a lot of extremely defensively bulky Volcaronas in the Spring Friendly (and never had one beat me, but I could see how it could be a problem). I was running 84HP / 44Def / 212SAtk / 4SDef / 164Spe, so that it could take a non-STAB rock slide and a turn or two of sand damage after an Intimidate and still 2HKO non-bulky Garchomp with Bug Buzz (might have to check these calcs for level 100s).

    Breloom needs Protect, since Cresselia Ice Beams either KO it or come extremely close. Its other three moves look good. I'd recommend a Life Orb over Sash since Tyranitar, Abomasnow, priority moves, and fas spread moves are everywhere, but Sash is good enough to use here.

    I'll have to visit this again, it's been a few weeks since I've used a team with these two, but this got me inspired again ^^
  13. Venser

    Venser

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    I'm actually really liking bulky Volcarona on TR teams - it's fast enough that it outspeeds slow threats outside of TR (Scizor, Breloom, Hippowdon) but underspeeds speedy, fast things it needs to kill like Hydreigon, Latis, Genesect under TR. Plus it has Rage Powder and can tank a hit.

    TR's my new baby. Marowak is underwhelming, as much as i wish it wasn't - I'm going to give Eruption Heatran a try, as well as either Rampardos/Rhyperior.
  14. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    Hello, my name is Lagalaga, and I have been playing a hell of a lot of smogon double on PS! lately.

    I'd like to mention a pretty smart combination that I have been using quite effectively for a bit of time now. It is Wide Guard + Spread move that hits all possible targets. I have been using a Wide Guard Hitmontop + Discharge Thundurus.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Wide Guard

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Blast
    - Discharge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Basically, Hitmontop is there for Intimidate support, strong Close Combats, and Priority. If Thundurus uses Discharge while Hitmontop uses Wide Guard, not only do you shield yourself from spread moves coming from the opponent, but you also protect yourself from the Discharge. This works well to get "free" damage off on your opponents, and possibly even paralyze them in the process :]
  15. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Wait, Wide Guard can block your own spread moves? This is new information to me.

    This means you could use Wide Guard on a Sun Team with Lava Plume Heatran. Oh dear.
  16. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Yepp Wide Guard is good lol

    Edit: It seems that it was just a coincidence that I always hit with Stone Edge while Machamp was on the field.

    I'll make a different post then. Thunder Wave is underused. There is a time when it was really popular, but I just steamrolled through the ladder and saw it maybe on the occasional Togekiss. Speed control in doubles is crucial and the chance for a crucial full paralysis is higher when you paralyze both targets. Prankster Thunder Wave parahax is just so clutch.
  17. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Since when does No Guard affect your partner?
  18. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Great to have you back, Doughboy! I'm glad that you find use for Breloom, since I found it lackluster in this one team I used. Basically it was just too slow and frail for my taste. cstick makes good use of Breloom, by pairing it with Tailwind support (as shown in Capitol Thrill), and it seems like you bypassed Breloom's frailty with Focus Sash ;d

    Speaking of cstick's team, he has quite an exemplary spread for the topic on EV benchmarks! Check out his Scizor:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Tailwind
    - Protect

    ~ faster than Politoed / +ve base 111 Speed in Tailwind
    ~ survives unboosted Modest Volcarona's Heat Wave 100% of the time
    ~ gurantees 1HKO on Latios with U-turn after Sand

    Like most of these pro spreads, his EVs are tailor-made specifically with his team in mind. Specifically he takes advantage of the Tailwind and Sand support provided by this team to not waste too much EVs in Attack and Speed, and instead he invested in enough special bulk to survive Volcarona's Heat Wave, which I find an extraordinary feat.

    Here's a growing list of benchmarks that were mentioned in the previous discussions - add more to this list by discussing some cool spreads! I'm planning in having these benchmarks posted on Table of Contents for users to easily access.

    benchmarks (open)

    Attack Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
    - max HP / 40+ Def Cresselia
    - max HP Gastrodon
    - max HP Tyranitar
    - max HP Politoed
    - max HP Metagross
    - max HP Hitmontop
    - min HP Latios
    - -1 Def max HP Victini

    Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)

    ~~~Physical~~~
    - CB / Gem V-create from Victini (in or out of sun)
    - CB / Gem Close Combat from Terrakion
    - Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop
    - LO Hi Jump Kick from Blaziken
    - Gem Acrobatics from Tornadus
    - +2 Zen Headbutt from Metagross
    - +1 Dragon Claw from Kyurem-B
    - Gem Crunch from Tyranitar
    - Earthquake from Excadrill (plus sand damage)
    - Earthquake from Garchomp
    - Bug Bite from Scizor
    - Rock Slide from Terrakion

    ~~~Special~~~
    - Gem / LO Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Hydreigon (Modest)
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Latios
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Salamence
    - Eruption from Heatran (in or out of Sun)
    - Hydro Pump from Kingdra (in or out of Rain)
    - Gem Shadow Ball from Chandelure
    - Blizzard from Kyurem (plus hail damage)
    - Blizzard from Abomasnow (plus hail damage)
    - Thunderbolt from Zapdos
    - Heat Wave from Volarona
    - Heat Wave from Heatrun (with or without Sun)

    Speed Benchmark
    - 353 - maximum +ve base 111 Speed (to check Tornadus, Thundurus, and below)
    - 333 - maximum +ve base 102 Speed (to check Garchomp)
    - 259 - maximum neutral base 80 Speed (to check Mamoswine and Chandelure)
    - 239 - maximum neutral base 70 Speed (to check Breloom and Ludicolo outside of Rain)
    - 176 - minimum neutral base 70 Speed (to check Metagross and Hitmontop)
    - 166 - minimum neutral base 65 Speed (to check Scizor)
    - 158 - minimum neutral base 61 Speed (to check Tyranitar)

    ~~~Under Trick Room~~~
    - 112 - base 60 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Jellicent)
    - 108 - base 58 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Scrafty)
    - 58 - base 30 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Amoonguss, Reuniclus, and Slowking)
  19. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Hey Pocket, can we get some numbers in the Benchmarks for more than just speed? Or are they superfluous?

    Also, Neutral base 100's are 299 Speed, for the speed tier there. 328 is Max speed base 100s.

    I've got 2 more sets to post in here.

    The first is Bulky Thundy-I.

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 164 HP / 44 Def / 56 SAtk / 244 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Thunder/Thunderbolt
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    EVs were discussed and are there to survive large hits like Draco Gem Latios DMeteor, and most Ice Beams. you might live a few Rock Slides too from things not named Terrakion (edit: or Archeops :/ ).

    Here's some calcs to show you what I mean.
    • 252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 164 HP / 244+ SpD Thundurus: 288-339 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 164 HP / 244+ SpD Thundurus: 288-338 (84.7 - 99.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Blizzard does about 5% less)
    • 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 164 HP / 44 Def Thundurus: 304-359 (89.41 - 105.58%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 164 HP / 244+ SpD Thundurus in rain: 325-384 (95.58 - 112.94%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    • 252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 164 HP / 44 Def Thundurus: 260-308 (76.47 - 90.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 164 HP / 244+ SpD Thundurus in sun: 294-346 (86.47 - 101.76%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Heat wave does only about 55%)

    As you can see, it handles the Special side of the game fairly well, only falling to things that hit harder than TTar's Rock Slide on the physical side of things. It sets up TWave and Taunt on what it needs to slow down or stop, and still tanks a couple strong hits. Overall, a very handy mon used in VGC that does well in SmogDubs.


    Next is Modified VGC Standard Amoongus

    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 212 HP / 108 Def / 188 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - Spore
    - Rage Powder
    - Protect
    - Giga Drain

    More Calcs!

    • 252+ SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 188+ SpD Amoonguss: 333-393 (78.9 - 93.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Psyshock will OHKO though)
    • 252+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 212 HP / 108 Def Amoonguss: 344-408 (81.51 - 96.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Volcarona Heat Wave vs. 212 HP / 188+ SpD Amoonguss: 326-386 (77.25 - 91.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sun it kills, in Rain, it becomes a 3HKO)
    • 252+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 212 HP / 188+ SpD Amoonguss: 302-356 (71.56 - 84.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Amoongus is great for setting up Rage Powder to let your frailer Sweepers either get in a hit or get a boost. My main lead atm is Fake Out Top+Spore Amoongus. It gets an early advantage by taking away the opening momentum and forcing your opponent to rethink a bit, giving you time to set up your next move, but you could do a RP alongside something like QD Volcarona, Sub Users like Chandelure, Frailer sweepers like Kingdra (Amoongus absorbs those pesky Toxics). The list goes on and on to be honest.


    Now to revisit a set, since I didn't really give it the star treatment it should have gotten when I showed the set originally. I'm of course talking about Lilligant.

    my favorite ChloroAbuser, Lilligant:

    [​IMG]
    Lilligant @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 100 Spd / 72 SAtk / 184 HP / 152 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Fire/Ground
    - Protect

    This Lilligant makes a perfect Sun Team lead against opposing weather starters, Scizor/Heatran depending on the HP you run, Sleeps things, and just lives a bunch of things it normally wouldn't. I love it against Rain Teams, as Leaf Stom OHKOs Defensive Politoed everytime, does 80-95% to max SpDef Hippodown, 80-94% to 188 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow with HP Fire outside of sun, and can even 2HKO TTar in Sand, except for the whole SpDef Drop thing. It's honestly just a great mon that no one ever really sees coming, so the surprise factor makes it even better. Give it a shot, as with Lum Berry, you can get out of a Sleep or a Paralyze and Sleep back, especially against things like Thundurus-I, which tend to give Sun Teams some issues. Protect is for the obvious fake Out leads you see everywhere at the moment. The speed EVs put it at 241, which outspeeds Max Speed Politoed in Rain, and 482 in Sunlight, which outspeeds everything below Maximum speed Deo-Speed.

    Here are some calcs for defense and attack.

    Defensive EVs
    • 252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant: 361-426 (110.39 - 130.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 186-218 (56.88 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant: 280-330 (85.62 - 100.91%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
    • 0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant in sun: 260-308 (79.51 - 94.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant: 205-242 (62.69 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ SpA Chandelure Heat Wave vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant: 306-362 (93.57 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO Not in Sun
    • 252 SpA Heatran Heat Wave vs. 184 HP / 152 SpD Lilligant: 258-306 (78.89 - 93.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Offensive EVs
    • 72+ SpA Lilligant Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 384-452 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • 72+ SpA Lilligant Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Tyranitar: 350-414 (86.63 - 102.47%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
    • 72+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 292-348 (90.96 - 108.41%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
    • 72+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 308-364 (89.79 - 106.12%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    • 72+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 248-292 (76.78 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    It's not the OP Destroyer of opposing Weather like I wish it was, but it does a lot of work, especially after sleeping something first. It can at least 2HKO Tran out of Sun and not die to Heat Wave, which is pretty useful.
  20. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Great post Blankzero :) Nice to see you took Pocket's comments on your first set post to heart, since these ones really go through and explain the benchmarks you hit on these sets. I'll probably have to try some of these EV spreads myself sometime.

    Anyways, I made a Doubles team that despite not using any defensive benchmarks, does talk about some of the Speed benchchmarks I mentioned earlier (trying not to just make this shameless self promotion). Also I figured this was a good time to drop off some of the replays I've been saving with the team:
  21. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Thanks! I spent a good bit of time in IRC with Bravierus getting some tips on what to EV for. Honestly, it really helped me finalize the team I was using those 2 on, as it helped me know what they could live and what I needed to switch out of. It's fun going down to 2% on Amoongus and then Sporing something, or getting off that 2nd TWave and Taunt.

    By the way, Amoongus on a Rain team is the bees knees for blocking Keldeo or Thundurus-T. It resists half of the Anti-Rain mons being used out there, as well as slamming Gastrodon and TTar. I also haven't seem a single Hippodown, but I did run into a SkarmFerro Hazards Lead. Fake Out+Spore took care of that though.
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I am going to post before Smogon crashes again...

    Thank you for the spreads, BlankZero! Those are some amazing calcs, especially Thundurus surviving a Blizzard from Kyurem x_x Some of the calcs are off, though - for instance, there's no way Thundurus survives a STAB Rock Slide from Tyranitar. (EDIT: Thanks, BlankZero, for the correction; I accidentally calced CB Tyranitar's Rock Slide ;x)

    You can also save more EVs by maxing Thundurus's HP. I'd also suggest adding 8 or 20 Spe EVs to outrun threats like Dragonite and Cloyster outside of Prankster.

    [​IMG] 252 HP / 40 SpA / 196 SpD/ 20 Spe; Calm Nature

    Awesome job with Amoonguss, too! Psyshock doesn't KO Latios, btw, unless Latios is holding a Psychic Gem in place of Dragon Gem :) I prefer Sitrus Berry on my Amoonguss, though, since the item allows the mushroom to survive an extra hit; Amoonguss also doesn't last long enough to take advantage of Leftovers's steady recovery, imo, since it takes so much abuse.

    I am still not bought with your Lilligant spread - the defensive calcs aren't that impressive, and actually convinces me to invest more in SpA to better clinch those OHKOs. Here's a new spread that you may want to try

    [​IMG]196 HP / 212 SpA / 100 Spe; Modest Nature

    With this spread, you're guaranteed to 2HKO max HP TTar with Leaf Storm (in sand) and OHKO Scizor and Abomasnow with HP Fire (without Sun). 196 HP is still plenty of bulk to tank priority moves and offensive Thundurus's HP Ice (but not HP Flying).

    Overall, this is a great improvement, BlankZero, and I am looking forward for more :D

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Also, whoever said Shuckle + Chansey combo is stupid is lying, cuz I just faced the same trainer three times with the annoying pair, and I lost both games because I couldn't stop Shuckle from sharing its defenses to Chansey. Honestly, it seems to me like a consistent strategy to me - the opponent wont always have Rage Powder or Taunt users available to thwart this tactic. All it takes is that one turn for Shuckle to Guard Split with Chansey, and it's pretty much game.

    Guard Split Chansey

    I was messing around with a sun team, when I faced this abomination. After the Guard Split, a STAB V-create in the Sun from Adamant Victini dealt only 29-fucking percent. We are talking about the most devastating physical move doing a pittance to this pink idiot. Couple that with stupid Intimidate and toxic spam, and you end up in a really shitty situation D:<

    I hope I'm not being a newb...
  23. youngjake93

    youngjake93

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    Leech Seed, Fake Out, Toxic, ignore Chansey, trick, taunt, rage powder/follow me, sleep, phazing, overpowering setup sweepers, double target fighting attacks, kill shuckle before it moves and possibly a few other ways all deal with guard split chansey.
    Abamosnow's leech seed is a pretty common ruiner of the strategy for example.
  24. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Fake Out, Taunt, Rage Powder / Follow Me are only temporary solutions - the opponent can simply switch out and fish for a better opportunity to bring back Shuckle. I don't think setup sweepers are that great an approach, either, since Shuckle can easily nullify any offensive boost with Power Split.

    Ignoring Chansey is not a solution, because it can 6-0 you if you cannot break Chansey's gigantic defense after receiving Shuckle's 230 defenses. Sleeping Guard Chansey probably wont work either, since you'll most likely need more than 2 turns to break through it.

    Leech Seed (plus Hail / Sand), Toxic, Phazing, double-target fighting attacks, and especially killing Shuckle before it can move are viable ways of dealing with this threat, though. I actually added Roar on Ninetales and Toxic on Gastrodon to deal with this strategy -_-;; I hope that would be enough.
  25. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    I watched a Guard Split Chansey come in with a Reuniclus and grab Magic Guard from it. I beat it, but dear god it was an uphill slog.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

    After your post, I went back and reran the calcs using Honko's Calculator. I ran your set and my set and here's what I got.

    Doubles Calc
    Pocket's Set
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 276-326 (76.24 - 90.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Blank's Set
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 164 HP / 44 Def Thundurus: 260-308 (76.47 - 90.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Singles Calc
    Pocket's Set
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 372-438 (102.76 - 120.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Blank's Set
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 164 HP / 44 Def Thundurus: 348-410 (102.35 - 120.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The results are nearly identical, except I spent only 208 EVs, where you spend 252, meaning I save more EVs with my spread overall to put towards SpAtk.

    Rock slide in Doubles won't OHKO, but in Singles it does. That might be throwing off your calcs.



    Also, Now that we have Set Usage Stats this month, let's look at the friendly dinosaur in question, eh?
    Tyranitar's Usage Stats (open)

    Tyranitar
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Abilities
    | Sand Stream 96.644%
    | Unnerve 3.356%
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Items
    | Choice Band 7.309%
    | Muscle Band 5.961%
    | Expert Belt 1.423%
    | Life Orb 1.285%
    | Rock Gem 0.699%

    So, out of all the items, we only have a 20% chance overall that TTar is carrying something that can boost Rock Slide's Power. Considering that it carries either Leftovers or Chople Berry about 45% of the time, I think it is safe to say we can rule out most of these.
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Spreads
    | Brave:252/252/0/0/4/0 15.700%
    | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 12.959%
    | Naughty:252/252/0/4/0/0 7.206%
    | Adamant:252/252/4/0/0/0 4.827%
    | Adamant:100/184/0/0/0/224 3.967%
    | Other 47.841%

    Here are the spreads we should look at. Apparently, TTar likes to run 252 Atk/HP with a boosting nature most of the time anyhow, so the calc is appropriate I believe.
    +----------------------------------------+
    | Moves
    | Crunch 89.155%
    | Rock Slide 46.294%
    | Protect 43.742%
    | Stone Edge 42.046%
    | Earthquake 32.368%
    | Superpower 23.180%
    | Fire Punch 13.783%
    | Stealth Rock 11.826%
    | Brick Break 11.126%
    | Pursuit 10.381%
    | Low Kick 9.503%
    | Aqua Tail 9.420%
    | Fire Blast 9.110%
    | Ice Beam 6.951%
    | Dragon Dance 5.366%
    | ThunderPunch 5.167%
    | Dragon Tail 4.100%
    | Aerial Ace 3.239%
    | Ice Punch 3.080%
    | Taunt 2.407%
    | Other 17.756%

    Here is another big one though. Rock Slide and Stone Edge are nearly tied for usage, which I account to most people not knowing how Doubles works yet. The ladder is really bad still. Still, only 46% of TTar's have it, which is silly considering it gets STAB on it and it's a spread move.


    Finally, I ran into an interesting Calc here with the same spreads.

    252+ Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 270-318 (74.58 - 87.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    AND

    252+ Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 164 HP / 44 Def Thundurus: 254-300 (74.7 - 88.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Looks like both our spreads also survive Terrakion's Rock slide, which is nuts.



    I'd like to suggest again, to anyone playing Doubles as more than just a passing "Oh this looks fun", go look through some of the RMTs on Nugget Bridge. I say this because of a few reasons. Firstly, the RMTs there are pretty high quality as the posters are coming from real experience against other good players. They also have great EV spreads for almost every Mon, given that every person knows what to EV for, and some sets we would consider wonky are actually pretty standard. The only difference you have to watch out for when doing calcs is updating the levels, as their spreads are for level 50, where EVs matter more than IVs.[/b]
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