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General Doubles Metagame Thread

Discussion in 'BW Doubles' started by Pocket, Dec 24, 2012.

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  1. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Finally! EV discussion! I'm definitely going to post a few spreads of my own as well as make some common spreads from VGC a little more accessible. I should have a good write up by this evening, so I guess I am reserving this post.
  2. lucariojr

    lucariojr quell the storm and ride the thundurus
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    optimizing EVs is part of getting to know your own team. when making a new team, I stick to 252/252 spreads and then modify them after I've tested past my first draft when I get to know exactly what hits I need to take or what I need to outspeed. for example on a rain team I used, I found my kingdra often getting OHKO'd by gemmed hitmontop's close combat when i wanted to conserve my draco meteor, so i changed to a slightly bulkier spread of 108 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 144 Speed, which lived close combats and other stuff like thundurus-t thunderbolts, not to mention the fact that its subs were slightly bulkier (letting it handle amoonguss giga drain... I'm not asking for miracles here lol) and still let me outspeed ludicolo and ohko it with draco meteor because hot damn I fucking hate ludicolo. even though the difference in bulk wasn't all that great, the fact that I calculated what kingdra could and couldn't take made me more confident when I switched kingdra in and out and it gave me more leeway when muddy water missed. similarly, when calcing for damage I knew exactly how much damage I would do to a certain pokemon and how much prior damage I would need to ohko it. an example of this is my rotom-w whose thunderbolt does just enough damage to put metagross in kill range for my jolly landorus-t while the leftover evs go into its defenses to make it more efficient at spamming t-wave.

    so in short I guess, it's good to have goals in mind when EVing but you should try to remember how much damage move x does against move y so you don't click rock slide and automatically assume it's going to ohko that tornadus.
  3. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Triples Leader
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    Well when I EV for Doubles since there aren't too many established unique spreads I have to worry about outspeeding, I usually just look at the OU Speed Tier list and EV my mon to hit a certain Speed benchmark. Generally though, it depends on what role I'm trying to have a mon fulfill. For example:

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 96 Spd / 252 SAtk / 160 HP
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Rage Powder
    - Protect

    I wanted my Volcarona to be an offensive support Pokemon when I made this moveset, so I started off with 252 EVs in Special Attack and a Modest Nature. Then, I looked at what it would need to outspeed to fulfill its role. I gave it enough EVs to outspeed neutral base 80s like Mamoswine and Venusaur so I could hit them with Heat Wave before they could strike back. Then I simply put the remaining EVs into HP since I wanted it to be able to redirect hits with Rage Powder

    In terms of EVing to meet certain defensive benchmarks, an example of me doing this was with my Swampert set. I looked at the role I wanted Swampert to perform, then I played around with a damage calc to find a spread that would allow Swampert to take hts from notable Pokemon that I needed it to beat (since I wanted it to beat Fires and Steels, I calced against things like Metagross and Victini). In general, the best way to go about EVing a Pokemon for me is to think about what role I need to perform with a given mon relative to the rest of the team, and then allow it to either KO or live hits from common threats that it needs to beat to fulfill its role.
  4. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Here's a few sets that I've used that either I myself have come up with, or have found that are less than standard and still highly effective. Some are VGC sets too, but less than known here in Doubles.

    First off, my favorite ChloroAbuser, Lilligant:

    [​IMG]
    Lilligant @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Spd / 72 SAtk / 184 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Fire/Ground
    - Protect

    This Lilligant makes a perfect Sun Team lead against opposing weather starters, Scizor/Heatran depending on the HP you run, Sleeps things, and just lives a bunch of things it normally wouldn't. I love it against Rain Teams, as Leaf Stom OHKOs Defensive Politoed everytime, does 80-95% to max SpDef Hippodown, 80-94% to 188 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow with HP Fire outside of sun, and can even 2HKO TTar in Sand, except for the whole SpDef Drop thing. It's honestly just a great mon that no one ever really sees coming, so the surprise factor makes it even better. Give it a shit, as with Lum Berry, you can get out of a Sleep or a Paralyze and Sleep back, especially against things like Thundurus-I, which tend to give Sun Teams some issues. Protect is for the obvious fake Out leads you see everywhere at the moment. That's pretty much it for Lilligant.

    The next set is a famous VGC set of Cresselia and Heatran.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 244 HP / 52 Def / 76 SAtk / 4 SDef / 132 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Heat Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Protect
    - Substitute

    Meet one of the craziest Heatran sets you'll ever see. This is the WolfeTran, made famous during the VGC '12 Master's Tournament by Wolfe Glick.

    The other partner is Cresselia of course.

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 4 SAtk / 124 SDef / 76 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Skill Swap
    - Psyshock
    - Sunny Day
    - Icy Wind

    And this is Skill Swap Cresselia with Icy Wind and Sunny Day, making it Heatran's awesome partner.

    Why are the descriptions so short? Because Wolfey has already posted the entire write up on Nuggetbridge of his team, which is something anyone interested in Doubles should probably look at, as it gives a lot of sets, ideas, strategies, etc that have been used throughout VGC and can be adapted.

    I'll look up a couple more of my sets at some point, but for now, I'll leave this here as is.
  5. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Before anyone just puts these on a team, keep in mind that those EVs are meant for the VGC metagame when all Pokemon are at level 50. For example, 252 HP / 52 Def on his Cress is there to always survive Dark Gem TTar's Crunch. At lvl 100, you need less EVs to survive the same hits; you only need 40 Def with Cress. Otherwise, these sets are excellent examples of EV optimisation.


    EV optimization needs to dependent on the Pokemon, its moves and items, and the team it's on. I'll talk you to through the process i go through to EV a Pokemon. I'm going to use Scrafty as an example, as I feel that he's a good example to showcase.
    [​IMG]
    Generally people use a standard EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant nature. Max HP EVs to maximise his overall bulk, especially considering he has low HP and high Def. Max Attack to deal as much damage as possible. Remainder EVs in Spe. Whilst this is basic and easy, this generally isn't the best way to EV Pokemons.

    What do we want to achieve with Scrafty? It's main perks are Fake Out + Intimidate support. We'd like to capitalise on this. To make the most out of this support, we'll be switching Scrafty in and out a lot. And to do that, it needs to be durable. However, we do not want to forget its offensive prowess; we don't want it to become a sitting duck (and remember that its main STABs only have 75 and 80 base power). So ideally we'll like it to survive most attacks, especially the common ons, whilst still hitting hard; that is how many VGC players EV their Pokemon. The best way to do this is to find Attack and Def benchmarks.

    Let's start with defense, and a common attack in doubles. VGC players regularly EV their Pokemon to survive this attack.
    • 252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scrafty: 306-360 (91.61 - 107.78%) -- 50% chance to OHKO.
    Not very good if we want Scrafty to be durable. Especially considering that if Scarfty survives the hit, it can hit hard Latios with STAB Crunch.

    Now look at this:
    • 252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Scrafty: 282-333 (84.43 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    That's much better. Ideally, you'll like at least 84 SpD EVs for Scrafty to survive this hit. Given how common the attack is, it's worth the Attack drop.

    What if the Latios was Modest though? It'll have a 56.25% chance to OHKO Scrafty. Latios rarely don't run a Modest nature, so usually it's not worth dropping your Attack to survive a rare attack. However, if your team would otherwise be very weak to Modest Latios, then it may well be worth the extra investment to survive this hit; you don't want most of your team to be OHKOed by Latios' Dragon Gem do you? Yeah we use Steel-types, but if you're only using one, do you want to have to switch it in every time your opponent's Latios comes out and if you know it's Modest? Or if you don't need a hard hitting Scrafty and don't care about the Attack drop, it may well be worth guaranteeing that your Scrafty cannot be OHKOed by Latios.

    Now another common attack is Adamant 252 Atk Hitmontop's Close Combat.
    • -1 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 306-362 (91.61 - 108.38%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    Another attack that is so common, you'll want to survive it. Normally Scrafty holds a Chople Berry for this, so you don't need to invest in Defense. However, if you run any other item (minus Focus Sash cause that's stupid on Scrafty), then this will become an issue.

    To never be OHKOed, you need 100 Def. Assuming the Hitmontop gets hit by Intimidate; good luck surviving CC without it. This will also let you sruvive Jolly Terrakion's LO CC.
    • -1 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Scrafty: 282-332 (84.43 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So if you want a Scrafty that survives common attacks, you should use a 252 HP / 100 Def / 84 SpD / 72 Atk with an Adamant nature. Or 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Def with a Careful nature (you get more stat points and more SpD whilst losing 2 Atk point; I'll talk about this later). I could EV Scrafty to always survive Fighting Gem Hi Jump kick in a similar vein ala Modest Dragon Gem Latios if I really wanted insurance, but I feel that such a move is far too unlikely to consider (even though Modest Latios is rare).

    So now we have a Scrafty that can survive the common attacks I want it to survive. But with all this removal of Atk EVs, we've had to pay the price of losing out on offensive proweness: Let's look at Crunch vs Leftovers Cress:
    • 252+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 168-200 (37.83 - 45.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 72+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 144-170 (32.43 - 38.28%) -- 2.08% chance to 3HKO

    And against Sitrus Cress:
    • 252+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 168-200 (30.27 - 36.03%) -- 43.58% chance to 3HKO
    • 72+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 144-170 (25.94 - 30.63%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    Considering how common and powerful Cress is, that's a big deal. If I were using Chople Berry Scrafty, I would not want to deal so little damage to Cress. With Chople Berry, I can afford to not invest in Def, as Chople protects me from Top's CC. So with 172 Atk vs Leftovers Cress
    172+ Atk Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 156-186 (35.13 - 41.89%) -- 83.52% chance to 3HKO.

    Whilst not guaranteed, that's a good chance to 3HKO. Especially considering that Fake out may put it into 3HKO range.

    If Scrafty is holding an Expert Belt instead of a Chople Berry, however, the 1.2x boost will more than compensate for the Attack lost from investing 100 EVs into Def to survive Top's Close Combat:
    • 72+ Atk Expert Belt Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Leftovers Cresselia: 173-204 (38.96 - 45.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 72+ Atk Expert Belt Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Sitrus Berry Cresselia: 173-204 (31.17 - 36.75%) -- 72.68% chance to 3HKO
    In fact, this Scrafty hits harder than Chople 252+ Adamant Scrafty

    If I use the EV spread of 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Def with a Careful nature that I raised about earlier, this is how the damage calc changes against Sitrus Cress:
    156 Atk Expert Belt Scrafty Crunch vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Cresselia: 168-202 (30.27 - 36.39%) -- 51.54% chance to 3HKO
    I feel that despite gaining more stat points with this EV spread, the lowered likelihood of a 3HKO on one of the most common Pokemon in the game is not worth it. So i'll stick to my seemingly-inferior-on-paper EV spread but practically superior spread of 252 HP / 72 Atk / 100 Def / 84 SpD with an Adamant nature.

    You may have realised that I left Speed out of the occasion. Speed benchmarks are more clearly defined than Atk and Def. If I wanted to outrun 60 base speed Pokemon like Jellicent with no Spe investment, I'd use 20 Spe EVs, or 28 if I wanted to outrun no Spe Tyranitar. However, I don't feel it's worth it. Those EVs would have to come from Def, SpD, HP, or Atk, which are needed to survive Timid Latios' Gem Draco Meteor, Hitmontop's Fighting Gem CC, and deal acceptable damage to Cresselia, and I consider all of these more important than outspeeding the aforementioned Pokemon (especially considering when they may be running Trick Room EV spreads, meaning I don't need Speed EVs to outspeed them). However, I may take 4 or 8 Spe EVs from Attack if I wanted to beat opposing Scrafty to the Fake Out.

    If I wanted to use Scrafty on a TR team, I'd change the nature according e.g. Careful to Sassy. Would I lower the Spe IVs to 0? Maybe. This would enable me to speed-tie with other 0 Spe Scrafty in TR. But if I wanted to have a faster Fake Out outside of TR (as Scrafty commonly lead a match), I'd use 3 Spe IVs to outrun them whilst still being slower than -nature 0 Spe IVs base 60s. This would especially be the case if I prefer to keep TR off the field against other TR teams, and that depends on how slow the rest of my team is compared to my opponent's.

    I hope you all find this helpful. Even if it's a long field, but when you're trying to make a team as strong as possible, then it's worth the time to maximize the efficacy of your EV spread, instead of trying to reach your team's peak on the ladder when your peak could be higher with a better EV spread.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Excellent example lucariojr! You raise a strong take-home point that these goal-oriented EV customization lets you know your team in a deeper level, particularly the team's shortcomings, which can be mitigated by creating these goal-specific spreads. Knowing better about the capabilities of your team members let you make smarter plays, which can be a difference between a win and a loss.

    BlankZero, interesting Lilligant's spread, but you failed to really answer the questions I posed - what is the purpose of your EV spread? Particularly the HP EVs - do they allow Lilligant to survive a common move? Or does the SpA EVs allow Lilligant to O-2HKO some relevant threat to your team? If not, you're probably better off just maxing out its SpA, so it can actually OHKO the mons that it is unable to KO with the current spread.

    Also, Wolfe's Heatran spread is a perfect example of making the most out of these benchmarks! Here's a revised spread to better suit our metagame:

    [​IMG]
    Papa Fuego (Heatran) (F) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 56 SAtk / 132 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Heat Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Protect
    - Substitute

    ~ survives Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop with enough health to set up a Sub
    ~ survives CB / Gem Close Combat from Terrakion
    ~ It's substitute would not break from Terrakion's Rock Slide
    ~ Faster than Garchomp after Icy Wind drop

    Notice that it is tailor-made for his team, which pairs Heatran with Cresselia. This spread makes the most out of Cresselia's Icy Wind and Skill Swap support, giving Heatran enough Speed to outrun and wall Garchomp after the speed drop and Levitate is passed to it.

    lucariojr, Audiosurfer, and Wolfie have started showing some important benchmarks to hit in Doubles:

    Attack Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
    - max HP / 40+ Def Cresselia
    - max HP Metagross
    - -1 Def max HP Victini


    Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)

    ~~~Physical~~~
    - CB / Gem V-create from Victini (in or out of sun)
    - CB / Gem Close Combat from Terrakion
    - Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop
    - LO Hi Jump Kick from Blaziken
    - +2 Zen Headbutt from Metagross
    - Gem Crunch from Tyranitar
    - Bug Bite from Scizor
    - Rock Slide from Terrakion

    ~~~Special~~~
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Latios

    Speed Benchmark
    - maximum base 102 Speed (to check Garchomp and below)
    - maximum base 80 Speed (to check Mamoswine and Chandelure)
    - minimum base 70 Speed (to check Metagross and Hitmontop)
    - minimum base 65 Speed (to check Scizor)
    - minimum base 61 Speed (to check Tyranitar)

    ~~~Under Trick Room~~~
    - negative base 60 Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check TR Jellicent)
    - negative base 58 Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Scrafty)

    I hope this post clarified what I am looking for in our discussion. Thanks for the solid start, homies~

    PS - Phenomenal post by Darkmalice, will add some of the benchmarks he mentioned!
  7. Venser

    Venser

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    Sorry for being oblivious but how does Metagross get to +2 for that Zen Headbutt we want our mons to be able to tank?
  8. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Triples Leader
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    It might be a typo, since when making my set I just used +0 Max Atk to calc, although you could potentially get there through Swagger + Lum Berry.

    Anyways, here are some additional benchmarks I thought of that could be useful to consider:
    benchmarks (open)
    Attack Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
    - Max HP Tyranitar (with or without Sand for Special Attacks)
    - Max HP Politoed
    - Max HP Hitmontop (with or without Intimidate for Physical sets)
    - Max HP Gastrodon

    Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)
    Physical:
    - Adamant +1 Dragon Claw from Kyurem-B
    - Flying Gem Acrobatics from Tornadus
    - Earthquake from Garchomp
    - Earthquake from Excadrill (factoring in Sand damage)

    Special
    - Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Hydreigon
    - Hydro Pump from Kingdra (with or without Rain)
    - Blizzard from Abomasnow
    - Thunderbolt from Zapdos
    - Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Salamence
    - Heat Wave / Eruption from Heatran (in or out of Sun)
    - Blizzard from Kyurem
    - Shadow Ball from Chandelure

    Speed Benchmark
    - Max Speed Base 70s (to check Breloom and Ludicolo outside of Rain)
    - Negative Base 30s under Trick Room (check Amoonguss, Reuniclus, Slowking)
  9. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Yep, Metagross is one of the most common recipient of the Swagger + Lum combo, since it has Clear Body to ignore Intimidate.

    I decided to work on my mental herb Dusknoir's EV spread, but I was disappointed by how restricted its defensive capabilities were, no matter how optimal the spread you come up with. I decided to work on a spread for Eviolite Dusclops spread instead!

    [​IMG]
    Dusclops (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 52 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Helping Hand
    - Sunny Day
    - Disable / Will-O-Wisp

    ~ survives Gem Shadow Ball from Modest Chandelure. This is the strongest special attack it must fear outside of Gem Psycho Boost from Rash Deoxys-A (3/16 chance to OHKO)
    ~ survives Gem Crunch from Adamant Tyranitar after sand damage. This is the strongest physical move it will encounter outside of CB / Gem V-create from Adamant Victini in the sun (5/16 chance to OHKO)

    Those EV benchmarks just reflect the improved bulk of Eviolite Dusclops compared to Dusknoir, who cannot hope to survive Tyranitar's Gem Crunch or Chandelure's Gem Shadow Ball even with maximum investment in respective defenses.

    It's interesting to note that unlike VGC, Doubles need to be wary of additional benchmarks of exclusive threats, such as Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A and V-create from Victini, which I daresay are moves whose power are unfounded in VGC.
  10. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    You're missing 4 EVs in your set. You can put them into SpD to lower the chance of being OHKOed by Deo-A's Gem +nature Psycho Boost to 12.5%.

    I think 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD Relaxed nature is a better spread to guarantee survive from Deo-A's Psycho Boost. You will still always survive Dark Gem Ttar's Crunch (65.49 - 78.16%) plus a couple of sandstorm turns. It gives you better mixed stats and a higher SpD (which is more useful in doubles than Def) without letting you lose bonus Def points. And to top it off, it only has an increase in 1/16 chance of being OHKOed by Adamant Band/Gem Victini's V-create in sun (37.5% chance total instead of 31.25%); Jolly still can't OHKO and unlike Psycho Boost this KO can be avoided with Intimidate support or by removing the sun with a teammate (provided you have the right teammates).
  11. BlankZero

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    That Lilligant spread lists the opposing weather starters that it kills, what it dents, and the extra bulk helps it survive Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam just in case that Leaf Storm's 90% accuracy let's me down.

    Other than that, it's just bulky and max speed (minus nature).
  12. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    This is pretty great. Never really thought about it this way, honestly, and not sure why, since this totally makes sense.


    Also do yourself a favor if you want to get over the hump: STOP THROWING THINGS INTO OBJECTIVE CATEGORIES. This is my biggest pet peeve, and it's probably mostly from singles, since that's apparently a thing there. I hear too many people talking about "sweepers" and "trick room" and "weather" and whatever else they want to categorize 6 mons as. STOP. Just identify things for what they are, don't try to stuff them in a 'role'. Each Pokemon should be able to take care of almost anything you need it to, or at least offer a niche to help a partner take care of the problematic Pokemon. If you're thinking "how does my team set up?" you're doing it so, so wrong.

    Pretty much 70% of the people I play on the ladder completely disregard what their opponent is doing and blindly set up their own strategy...or they do look at what the opponent is doing, and then categorize each Pokemon. "Oh Volcarona is ur sweepur." Yes, clearly, Volcarona's ONLY use is to Quiver up once or twice and proceed to OHKO everything it can before it dies, and the other mons are only pawns in the game to help out the moth SWEEP through things. Let's just ignore that it could also use Rage Powder, Safeguard, or any of the assortment of decent niche moves it could use and LABEL it. (sarcastic rants are great)

    People will also claim "well I'm focusing on the other team cause I'm using weather to beat weather lolol!!!11" Cool, congrats on using a gimmick to beat a gimmick. Honestly, if you're relying on 'rain' or 'sun' or 'sand', especially in a format where all six Pokemon are used, you're setting yourself up for failure- the opponent makes one deft play, and your "weather teem" is scratched. Also, by deeming that weather is the reason your opponent is winning, you're completely taking away from the strategy of the game and focusing on team matchups, of which Singles are way more heavy on due to the trends that have developed there. Focus on HOW you play, not WHO you play. That is what makes double battles great- the strategy being more diverse and in-depth.


    Bleh I hate making posts like that, but I don't know how else to explain this. Trying to categorize things is completely pointless and can only make the game less competitive and more about flipping coins, and doesn't help you develop as a player, as you're not looking at yourself and how you play...you're looking only at teams and how you match up against them. There's a good balance in between that the game allows for, try to keep it there!
  13. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    This was the last post on the previous page and it seemed to have slipped people's eyes completely.
  14. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer Triples Leader
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    If you checked through the OP, you would see that Braverius already made one of these. It's not a Viability Ranking Thread per se, but it is a good guideline as to the viability of various Pokemon in the metagame for newer players.

    Also, I agree with Braverius's post. All too often, people make subpar plays in order to get up a certain field condition or something, when there may be a more efficient and concise method of victory available to them. However, in terms of battling, while you shouldn't just try to win the weather war for the sake of winning the weather war, if your team is weak to certain Pokemon in their respective weather, (Kingdra in Rain or Excadrill in Sand or something) it's also important to try and handle those threats as best as you can, so if keeping them out of their primary weather is the best method you have of dealing with them, you should still attempt to do so. Senseless weather wars suck, but the other side of the spectrum can also be faulty, so as Braverius said it's important to analyze your opponent's overall strategy when forming your plans.
  15. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Another note is this.

    No matter what, play to make your strategy come out on top. Whether this means disrupting your opponent's strategy with Whimsicott, or by resetting a weather purely because without doing so, you'll lose. Play head games too. Swapping your Heatran into a fire move will demoralize an opponent and probably bring out their Tran counter the next turn, making your predictions easier, making it even easier to play more head games.
  16. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    This advice is actually exactly in opposition to what Zach, Asurfer, and I were saying and is also very unsound. Resetting rain when I didn't need to is probably the cause of 2/3 of my losses; however, leaving Toed in when the weather isn't in my favor, using it as the supportive physical tank it was supposed to be, instead of just a raincloud, almost always works out. I dearly hope you were being sarcastic...?
  17. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    ------------------------------
    ------------------------------
    My post didn't cover this, but mind games aren't what you do in the battle, they're what you do outside of the battle- talking to your opponent, reading their reactions, etc. This is easier to do in live competitions than online, obviously, but just typing online can do enough. Any competent player is going to understand the damage rolls from that Heat Wave, and anyone with a bit of self control will analyze the situation effectively and make the right play instead of panicking like you assume everyone does. Whether the final move is switching into their Heatran check or not completely depends on the situation and the player's style.
    ------------------------------
    tl;dr (especially necessary here), Pwnemon's post.
  18. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Community Contributor
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    Just want to introduce my favorite combo now that I have a returning interest in doubles:

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 196 HP / 200 Def / 112 Spd (Inefficent Spread?)
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Heat Wave
    - Bug Buzz
    - Protect
    [​IMG]
    Breloom (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Helping Hand / Low Sweep / Stone Edge
    ______________________________________
    [​IMG]
    Latios (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Psych Up
    - Protect


    Outside of their shared weakness to Flying, Volcarona and Breloom have very good synergy when it comes to spread moves. Most of the spread moves that attempt to hit Volcarona hard Breloom can capitalize on with a strong attack or Sleep. Most of the time I use both Breloom and Volcarona to lead off together. Usually the massive threat of Sleep pushes the opponent to focus their attention on Breloom (paticularly Fake Out) giving me the opportunity to set up a handy dandy Quiver Dance to strike at the opponent. Protect on Volcarona and Focus Sash on Breloom are used just in case I need to buy a turn. The threat of Spore is also a good stop to some Trick Room setting combinations. The last slot for Breloom is tough, but right now I am leaning towards Low Sweep to get a more powerful STAB move. Helping Hand can be used in tandem with Heat Wave and Stone Edge to challenge opposing Dragnoites and Chandelures.

    In terms of offensive synergy, Breloom and Volcarona could not get any better outside of the elusive Dragonite and Chandelure. Breloom's Bullet Seed takes down those mean water types that attempt to put a halt to Volcarona's sweep. Mach Punch is essential for nailing Terrakion hard before it can Rock Slide. This goes doubly for Excadrill and Kingdra that can outspeed Volcarona in their respective weathers even with a QD under the belt. Heatran is also taken care of by Breloom's Fighting-STAB. Meanwhile, Volcarona is destroying Breloom's most common walls: Lati@s, Cresselia, and Amoonguss. Most teams crumble to their combination of power + inability to get hit.

    Latios is my addition to the Volcarona+Breloom combo of setting up. I have talked about pairing Latios+Volcarona in the past and man o' man it can be deadly. Latios adds speed to the offensive core. Latios with Psyshock and Dragon Pulse in hand can easily deal with Breloom's and Volcarona's biggest checks respectively: Dragonite and Terrakion. It's phenomenal speed also means it can grab Volcarona's boosts before the majority of Pokemon can attack. This is especially useful for surviving stray Ice Beams. The coolest part about Psych Up Latios is that Volcarona can Protect itself while safely setting up by copying its boosts!

    I have two matches with leading off with the core VS audiosurfer and nyttyn. While the second match Breloom doesn't do very much, I certainly feel that nyttyn felt the pressure of Breloom's Spore incoming, which forced him to keep Latios in. This allowed for Volcarona to grab a QD. Similarly, the first match shows the pressure of Breloom when audiosurfer went after Breloom immediately with Fake Out + Heat Wave.

    Audiosurfer:http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19874125
    nyttyn:http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19878349

    EDIT: Another game (maybe the best?) on the ladder that really illustrates the power of Volcarona+Breloom: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-19901686
  19. Braverius

    Braverius Free the music, unleash the vibe
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    Great call- I absolutely love this combo in both VGC and 6v6 Doubles. It's ridiculously good at taking out some of the most common threats. While it's somewhat easy to read, its efficiency and power make up for that predictability.

    I'm not a fan of that bulky of a Volcarona, but I've used that moveset forever. It typically is better when you can outspeed things and Quiver up quickly to get the Special Defense boost rather than waiting to take a hit. The defense is more of a singles thing, apparently, as I saw a lot of extremely defensively bulky Volcaronas in the Spring Friendly (and never had one beat me, but I could see how it could be a problem). I was running 84HP / 44Def / 212SAtk / 4SDef / 164Spe, so that it could take a non-STAB rock slide and a turn or two of sand damage after an Intimidate and still 2HKO non-bulky Garchomp with Bug Buzz (might have to check these calcs for level 100s).

    Breloom needs Protect, since Cresselia Ice Beams either KO it or come extremely close. Its other three moves look good. I'd recommend a Life Orb over Sash since Tyranitar, Abomasnow, priority moves, and fas spread moves are everywhere, but Sash is good enough to use here.

    I'll have to visit this again, it's been a few weeks since I've used a team with these two, but this got me inspired again ^^
  20. Venser

    Venser

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    I'm actually really liking bulky Volcarona on TR teams - it's fast enough that it outspeeds slow threats outside of TR (Scizor, Breloom, Hippowdon) but underspeeds speedy, fast things it needs to kill like Hydreigon, Latis, Genesect under TR. Plus it has Rage Powder and can tank a hit.

    TR's my new baby. Marowak is underwhelming, as much as i wish it wasn't - I'm going to give Eruption Heatran a try, as well as either Rampardos/Rhyperior.
  21. Laga

    Laga Thank u based danish pastry
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    Hello, my name is Lagalaga, and I have been playing a hell of a lot of smogon double on PS! lately.

    I'd like to mention a pretty smart combination that I have been using quite effectively for a bit of time now. It is Wide Guard + Spread move that hits all possible targets. I have been using a Wide Guard Hitmontop + Discharge Thundurus.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Wide Guard

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Blast
    - Discharge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Basically, Hitmontop is there for Intimidate support, strong Close Combats, and Priority. If Thundurus uses Discharge while Hitmontop uses Wide Guard, not only do you shield yourself from spread moves coming from the opponent, but you also protect yourself from the Discharge. This works well to get "free" damage off on your opponents, and possibly even paralyze them in the process :]
  22. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Wait, Wide Guard can block your own spread moves? This is new information to me.

    This means you could use Wide Guard on a Sun Team with Lava Plume Heatran. Oh dear.
  23. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,548
    Yepp Wide Guard is good lol

    Edit: It seems that it was just a coincidence that I always hit with Stone Edge while Machamp was on the field.

    I'll make a different post then. Thunder Wave is underused. There is a time when it was really popular, but I just steamrolled through the ladder and saw it maybe on the occasional Togekiss. Speed control in doubles is crucial and the chance for a crucial full paralysis is higher when you paralyze both targets. Prankster Thunder Wave parahax is just so clutch.
  24. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Since when does No Guard affect your partner?
  25. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Leader

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    Great to have you back, Doughboy! I'm glad that you find use for Breloom, since I found it lackluster in this one team I used. Basically it was just too slow and frail for my taste. cstick makes good use of Breloom, by pairing it with Tailwind support (as shown in Capitol Thrill), and it seems like you bypassed Breloom's frailty with Focus Sash ;d

    Speaking of cstick's team, he has quite an exemplary spread for the topic on EV benchmarks! Check out his Scizor:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Tailwind
    - Protect

    ~ faster than Politoed / +ve base 111 Speed in Tailwind
    ~ survives unboosted Modest Volcarona's Heat Wave 100% of the time
    ~ gurantees 1HKO on Latios with U-turn after Sand

    Like most of these pro spreads, his EVs are tailor-made specifically with his team in mind. Specifically he takes advantage of the Tailwind and Sand support provided by this team to not waste too much EVs in Attack and Speed, and instead he invested in enough special bulk to survive Volcarona's Heat Wave, which I find an extraordinary feat.

    Here's a growing list of benchmarks that were mentioned in the previous discussions - add more to this list by discussing some cool spreads! I'm planning in having these benchmarks posted on Table of Contents for users to easily access.

    benchmarks (open)

    Attack Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon you want to inflict damage / KO)
    - max HP / 40+ Def Cresselia
    - max HP Gastrodon
    - max HP Tyranitar
    - max HP Politoed
    - max HP Metagross
    - max HP Hitmontop
    - min HP Latios
    - -1 Def max HP Victini

    Defense Benchmark (Opposing Pokemon's moves you want to tank)

    ~~~Physical~~~
    - CB / Gem V-create from Victini (in or out of sun)
    - CB / Gem Close Combat from Terrakion
    - Gem Close Combat from Hitmontop
    - LO Hi Jump Kick from Blaziken
    - Gem Acrobatics from Tornadus
    - +2 Zen Headbutt from Metagross
    - +1 Dragon Claw from Kyurem-B
    - Gem Crunch from Tyranitar
    - Earthquake from Excadrill (plus sand damage)
    - Earthquake from Garchomp
    - Bug Bite from Scizor
    - Rock Slide from Terrakion

    ~~~Special~~~
    - Gem / LO Psycho Boost from Deoxys-A
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Hydreigon (Modest)
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Latios
    - Gem Draco Meteor from Salamence
    - Eruption from Heatran (in or out of Sun)
    - Hydro Pump from Kingdra (in or out of Rain)
    - Gem Shadow Ball from Chandelure
    - Blizzard from Kyurem (plus hail damage)
    - Blizzard from Abomasnow (plus hail damage)
    - Thunderbolt from Zapdos
    - Heat Wave from Volarona
    - Heat Wave from Heatrun (with or without Sun)

    Speed Benchmark
    - 353 - maximum +ve base 111 Speed (to check Tornadus, Thundurus, and below)
    - 333 - maximum +ve base 102 Speed (to check Garchomp)
    - 259 - maximum neutral base 80 Speed (to check Mamoswine and Chandelure)
    - 239 - maximum neutral base 70 Speed (to check Breloom and Ludicolo outside of Rain)
    - 176 - minimum neutral base 70 Speed (to check Metagross and Hitmontop)
    - 166 - minimum neutral base 65 Speed (to check Scizor)
    - 158 - minimum neutral base 61 Speed (to check Tyranitar)

    ~~~Under Trick Room~~~
    - 112 - base 60 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Jellicent)
    - 108 - base 58 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Scrafty)
    - 58 - base 30 -ve Speed with 0 Spe IVs (to check Amoonguss, Reuniclus, and Slowking)
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