Alain has had that Charizard evolved for a while and trained against top notch competition. I think that Ash took him to the brink was an accomplishment in itself.
I also wonder what this says for the future of megas (in the anime at least).
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SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion
- Thread starter Jellicent
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I also wonder what this says for the future of megas (in the anime at least).
The next episode teaser is now on it's way to rivaling the Metal Gear Survive trailer as the most disliked video on Youtube this week.
That defeat was somehow predictable, but I still fail to understand why the writers try so hard in having him lose. Winning the league does not have to be a reason for Ash to stop competing - especially since Alola has a non-standard system - if there was a time for him to win without dropping him, it was this, and yet...
Still, being argentinian, I love some images that spawned on this, and him being second place. They are pure gold. (Or should I say "pure silver"?)
Still, being argentinian, I love some images that spawned on this, and him being second place. They are pure gold. (Or should I say "pure silver"?)
This shows why you should never invite someone stronger than you into a tournament. Oh, and cements Ash as a forever loser despite having a decent team.
I will say that this battle cements Pikachu as Ash's strongest Pokemon. The breakout star of his only championship win ever (sorry Dragonite), victor in the battle frontier against the legendary Regice, a draw against Latios in the broken af Sinnoh league, and now single-handedly taking down 2 pseudolegends in the same match. And all while looking cute as hell. Plot device level-reset be damned.
The writers making Ash lose is one of the stupidest decision they have made in a long time. Did they seriously not see the insane amount of fan demand for Ash to win the league? Regardless of the quality of the rest of the season, this shows ratings are definitely going to take a nosedive because of this.
Ash losing drove this episode down significantly for me, although I still do believe that it did have some positives. It did have pretty good animation and the battles were intense (though both were nowhere near the level of the previous episodes) and at the very least Ash lost to a somewhat well developed character that some fans got attached to rather than some random person he just met at the league. I also thought the ending set up the team flare arc nicely as well, though it did feel somewhat rushed. Its obviously not enough to make up for the disappointment that was the finale, however.
I'm going to continue watching the show as the team flare arc looks somewhat interesting. However, if the like / dislike ratio of the next episode's preview are anything to go by, a lot of people aren't going to be willing to be watching the show anymore and its somewhat saddening, as the season seemed to be getting really good before this episode
Ash losing drove this episode down significantly for me, although I still do believe that it did have some positives. It did have pretty good animation and the battles were intense (though both were nowhere near the level of the previous episodes) and at the very least Ash lost to a somewhat well developed character that some fans got attached to rather than some random person he just met at the league. I also thought the ending set up the team flare arc nicely as well, though it did feel somewhat rushed. Its obviously not enough to make up for the disappointment that was the finale, however.
I'm going to continue watching the show as the team flare arc looks somewhat interesting. However, if the like / dislike ratio of the next episode's preview are anything to go by, a lot of people aren't going to be willing to be watching the show anymore and its somewhat saddening, as the season seemed to be getting really good before this episode
It's a bit sad that an anime whose primary target audience is kids decides to let their main protagonist never see the light of complete success while at the same time suggesting:
That the unmatched bond that brought about Ash Greninja, a phenomenon never seen anywhere else, to lose to the same mega three times despite showing signs of improvement every time.
That the lifelong dream of Ash to win the league is trumped by a person who only joined so that he can face Ash, for the sake of getting more powerful "to take back what he has lost", even though it is not what Manon wants.
Way to go Pokemon. You just taught kids that dreams don't mean shit, that improvement doesn't mean shit, and that efforts towards a laudable goal can be surpassed by efforts towards a misguided goal. Way to go.
That the unmatched bond that brought about Ash Greninja, a phenomenon never seen anywhere else, to lose to the same mega three times despite showing signs of improvement every time.
That the lifelong dream of Ash to win the league is trumped by a person who only joined so that he can face Ash, for the sake of getting more powerful "to take back what he has lost", even though it is not what Manon wants.
Way to go Pokemon. You just taught kids that dreams don't mean shit, that improvement doesn't mean shit, and that efforts towards a laudable goal can be surpassed by efforts towards a misguided goal. Way to go.
Everyone's used to Ash losing, but I can't believe the writers are this adamant that Ash lose. Honestly, they should expect ratings to plummet after this. Nobody wanted Alain to win. Nobody even wanted Alain in the Kalos League.
This honestly just cements Ash's position as the most pathetic protagonist in anime history. Can't see how the anime can recover from this level of backlash (read: 49 dislikes per like on ep39 preview)
This honestly just cements Ash's position as the most pathetic protagonist in anime history. Can't see how the anime can recover from this level of backlash (read: 49 dislikes per like on ep39 preview)
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I still don't understand how Ash can build up a new style of evolution from bonding with his Pokémon in a special way and it's not Pikachu he's done it with.
Also, my idea to continue after a league win would simply involve Ash battling a trainer from the new region (which he may or may not win) and be convinced how tough the competition is around there. Or some kind of defeat coming from complacency about becoming the league champion which should ground him as a Pokémon Master, which teaches him that a Pokémon Trainer should always strive to become stronger.
Lastly - who said that just because Alola has a new take on the league challenge that the writers will follow that? They've never bothered to make characters true to their game counterparts (unless it's very blatant character traits sometimes) nor did they bother with the plot events of the games (except shoehorning all the evil team stuff at the very end of the season in a hardly reminiscent way) - why would they be true to the games now?
Also, my idea to continue after a league win would simply involve Ash battling a trainer from the new region (which he may or may not win) and be convinced how tough the competition is around there. Or some kind of defeat coming from complacency about becoming the league champion which should ground him as a Pokémon Master, which teaches him that a Pokémon Trainer should always strive to become stronger.
Lastly - who said that just because Alola has a new take on the league challenge that the writers will follow that? They've never bothered to make characters true to their game counterparts (unless it's very blatant character traits sometimes) nor did they bother with the plot events of the games (except shoehorning all the evil team stuff at the very end of the season in a hardly reminiscent way) - why would they be true to the games now?
Holy crap, the dislikes:views ratio is about 4,1:1 - even the trailer to Ghostbusters 2016 isn't nearly as much (39,5:1).
As I said, the Anime is carried by the brand name alone - it never had, and never will have, any quality on its own. The spinoffs and maybe the movies are great, but the anime is just a thing that gets shat out on a weekly schedule with no effort on anyone's part.
Yeah, thinking about it I find it odd that Ash's Greninja got so much attention, beyond that a Starter usual gets. It started out pretty much like Ash's Snivy, it was a strong willed Pokemon who kept abandoning its trainer because they didn't feel they were strong enough. Alright, a bit selfish but Pokemon value bond strength and if one feels they aren't connecting with their trainer they have no reason to stay. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary until Olympia's Gym when its revealed Ash's Greninja has a great destiny before it, is going to save the Kalos region, and was destined to be with Ash. And then to justify it they gave Greninja a special transformation (and not give Ash a Mega because that would giving Ash character growth beyond because, unless Ash takes Greninja with him to Alola, all of this was pointless as only Greninja can transform. Meanwhile had Ash been given a Key Stone he could just catch another Pokemon in the Alola region that can Mega Evolve. I wonder if they're going to give Ash a Z-Ring or pull a stunt like this again).
Also Greninja gets all this without really have struggled with anything, I don't feel anything from Greninja getting this special treatment. When Ash's Infernape and Pignite went up against their former trainers and won I felt more from that as we saw them struggle, they eventually went up against the source of their struggle, and rose up against it. While Pignite's victory was out of plot convenience/get a message across, Infernape's battle with Paul's Electivire was one of the highlights of the Sinnoh League (and since Ash won that battle it meant something). And I've said it over and over again and will keep saying it, Ash's Charizard should have Mega Evolved (to Y). Not only to match Alain's Charizard (and give is a MCX vs MCY worth a damn) but Charizard is another of Ash's Pokemon who struggled, overcame it, and would have been nice for it to go to the next level now that its pinnacle.
But I wouldn't have a problem is Ash won the Kalos League, like if they didn't have the Team Flare stuff to set up which is the main reason why Alain won. Because as I said, just cause he's League Champion doesn't mean he'll win against the Elite Four or the Champion (at her full strength with all her Pokemon). Have Ash lose t to one of the Elite Four thus not become Champion and so he moves on to then next region. BTW are we really going to end another saga without meeting the entirety of the Elite Four (we've yet to see Wikstrom and Drasna)?
As I mentioned above, there's -no- reason Ash would retire or anything if he ever became Champion of any region. Learning of a new region for new challenges is all the motivation needed for a new generation. In Kanto, him losing was a genuine surprise, in Johto, it helped promote the Hoenn Region (which was a good idea given how mediocre the Gen 2 previews were). In all other times, they just followed the trend without thinking about it.
Greninja might have been pulled into this role because of Smash Bros. and what is basically the Lucario effect - a Pokémon shilled to no end so it can be elevated into being popular.
Also, they'll probably cram the entire Team Flare plot + the postgame story into like 5 episodes in a hackish fanfiction way, like they did with the Team Plasma arc (which was cockblocked by the Fukushima incident; then again, widespread city destruction is -very- out-of-character for the old Team Plasma as well as Team Rocket).
Greninja might have been pulled into this role because of Smash Bros. and what is basically the Lucario effect - a Pokémon shilled to no end so it can be elevated into being popular.
Also, they'll probably cram the entire Team Flare plot + the postgame story into like 5 episodes in a hackish fanfiction way, like they did with the Team Plasma arc (which was cockblocked by the Fukushima incident; then again, widespread city destruction is -very- out-of-character for the old Team Plasma as well as Team Rocket).
I thought Serena losing in her Trypokalon finale was enough and Ash was sooooo hyped. I should haven't been hoping so much for a merchandise-driven anime (which merch I can't afford), but never I thought I had been so wrong. 
What happened to his promise to the punk he fought earlier, and to Shota? Oh Lord Arceus, I don't mind Greninja having the spotlight since he seems to get Lucario treatment and I think that's pretty much inevitable, but having hyped that only to cut it off in the end, although I haven't watched it yet. So I hope it isn't that bad....
I missed the episode, but I already saw this happening (too late, spoilers). I was so hoping this time they throw the bone to Ash, but nope. At least though, I heard this one is not as humiliating as the two previous leagues. I can only hope this time they also don't just rush the Flare plan and make it sail smoothly.
At least, this time he ranked better than all he had done, didn't he?
Now I wonder how will he do his team and companions though. They already made Serena almost an official couple, Ash-Greninja a thing that nobody even know what this thing is that it is another reason Greninja got first place on most favourite poll, and so on. We haven't even had the "Mega not returning" rumour fiasco resolved yet. And how about Squishy-chan and its next role with Zygarde possibly existing in Alola too? I might continue to see the next crisis, but....
What happened to his promise to the punk he fought earlier, and to Shota? Oh Lord Arceus, I don't mind Greninja having the spotlight since he seems to get Lucario treatment and I think that's pretty much inevitable, but having hyped that only to cut it off in the end, although I haven't watched it yet. So I hope it isn't that bad....
I missed the episode, but I already saw this happening (too late, spoilers). I was so hoping this time they throw the bone to Ash, but nope. At least though, I heard this one is not as humiliating as the two previous leagues. I can only hope this time they also don't just rush the Flare plan and make it sail smoothly.
At least, this time he ranked better than all he had done, didn't he?
Now I wonder how will he do his team and companions though. They already made Serena almost an official couple, Ash-Greninja a thing that nobody even know what this thing is that it is another reason Greninja got first place on most favourite poll, and so on. We haven't even had the "Mega not returning" rumour fiasco resolved yet. And how about Squishy-chan and its next role with Zygarde possibly existing in Alola too? I might continue to see the next crisis, but....
The Anime built it's own grave, they pretty much build a 1.5 season crescendo into a fart.
Don't worry, not even Japanese kids liked this, not even the animators nor the VA(not confirmed directly by them but apparently by people on the Pokémon staff that commented on it, given seiyu status they are bound by contract to never say anything negative), it seems like an enforced call that send this to the shitter.
Don't worry, not even Japanese kids liked this, not even the animators nor the VA(not confirmed directly by them but apparently by people on the Pokémon staff that commented on it, given seiyu status they are bound by contract to never say anything negative), it seems like an enforced call that send this to the shitter.
Wait, previous two? You mean Unova and Sinnoh? Okay, Unova I agree with, but Sinnoh? Ash's finale in the Sinnoh League had him facing a trainer who uses Legendaries and taking down two of them! That's far from humiliating, that's very impressive considering no one else could even take down Tobias's Darkrai (not even the other trainer in the Sinnoh League's final match which is where some BS comes in as that means Ash is better then 2nd place yet he just gets a semi-finalist trophy (and no recognition he DEFEATED TWO LEGENDARIES in front of a huge audience both live and televised)). The reason people were upset with Tobias because he was pretty much made to take down Ash. They introduced no "rival" trainer before the Sinnoh League and Ash defeated Paul, there wasn't really anyone to oppose Ash who not only used his good Sinnoh team but also his reserves. Thinking about, Tobias probably would have also cleaned up at the Unova and Kalos league, for the latter probably reveal he got a Mega Latios (or be used to reveal a Mega Darkrai).
Had the Kalos League had a Tobias I don't think people would be complaining, but since Ash was on an even footing with Alain (who didn't have a Lucario with access to god mode) and him losing after a power collision using a new super move feels like a slap in the face, especially since it was only done to assure Alain's status as Lysnadre's dragon (at least until he does his heel-face turn, thanks for spoiling that trailers).
You know, I got another idea how they could have done this: have Ash and Alain tie. They both tie but Alain decides to forfeit the title to Ash since he only wanted to challenge Ash, he didn't care if he won the League or not. Ash becomes League Champion (though feels like he might not have earned it since the last battle was a tie) but before plans to challenge the Elite Four & Champion we have Lysandre unleashing his plans. Ash goes to Lumiose City to help fight Lysandre when he encounters Alain who's still working for Lysandre. Ash and Alain battle with Ash eventually getting the upperhand (but not fully beating Alain) when Alain's heel-face turn moment comes (I imagine it involving Bonnie (and maybe Serena and/or Clemont) having split for Ash, encounter Mairin with Chespie. Squishy senses Chespie has some Zygarde Cells in it and absorbs them, healing Chespie. Mairin says she and Alain know what Lysandre is doing is wrong but feel they had no choice but Bonnie/Serena/Clemont convince them they do and go to tell Alain. From there Alain stops being a puppets of Lysandre). Anyway they then encounter Malva, who reveals she's part of the Elite Four, and battles both Ash and Alain, almost knocking out both Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard but working together they eventually beat her. After that they do what they need to do to stop Lysandre. When its all over, Ash then declines to challenge the Elite Four as, though it wasn't official, he could barely defeat Malva without Alain's help so still feels he has a lot to do before he could challenge an Elite Four & Champion. This way Ash wins the Pokemon League tournament, Alain is still built up as a challenge Ash will have to get through, Ash faces an Elite Four member and realizes he's not ready to challenge them, and the day is saved and Ash has a new region to look forward going to (one without a Pokemon League but a new challenge which is up Ash's ally).
Serena would be easy to get rid of, remember Palermo offered to train Serena to become a Kalos Queen so it's very likely at the end of XYZ that Serena is going to take her up on that offer.
As for Greninja, maybe it'll stay with Professor Sycamore so he could study it accessing a form just as powerful as Mega Evolution. Otherwise Ash would leave it with Professor Oak like his other Pokemon Pokemon. This is why I don't get why they put so much emphasis on Ash and Greninja's bond since, if he doesn't take it to Alola, it means jack-squat. But had he just been able to Mega Evolve then that is a skill he could take to Alola but no...
The big question is Squishy. We have the Zygarde Formes in Sun & Moon so it would make sense for it to come along. Then again all the things involving Squishy would end with XYZ. I could only thing that Ash would bring Squishy to Alola by revealing Squishy is actually from Alola, either taken from there by Team Flare or it came to Alola in order to help/get help from the Kalos Zygarde Core. Otherwise I'd say the writers would just ignore that, leave Squishy in Kalos to live happily, and if it ever comes for a Zygarde Core to be in Alola they'll just have another one pop up (since we already know there are multiples of them).
I think the problem with Tobias is that he literally came out of nowhere with 2 legendaries on his one, one being a fucking Darkrai. It was clear that they were intending to make Ash lose at all cost and, in my humble opinion, that is still a disgusting thing to do.
As if losing 3 times wasn't enough, now we are at a lose steak of 6 times...and the most Ash loses, the worst the reasons become.
Hoenn: Lost to a freaking Meowth
Sinnoh: A character that came out of nowhere having legendaries with literally no build up unlike the Battle Frontier who suppose to rival the Elite 4.
Unova: Lost to a guy who only brough 5 Pokemon who then lost to an Eevee trainer who only needed 3 Pokemon against him
Karlos: All the character development and struggles, defeated by Alain 2 times prior and getting better each time, 20th anniversary, getting an exclusive form for one of his starters...it was build up way to much.
Personally I feel Karlos was the worst because unlike the other 3, it was actually a good anime so far...
As if losing 3 times wasn't enough, now we are at a lose steak of 6 times...and the most Ash loses, the worst the reasons become.
Hoenn: Lost to a freaking Meowth
Sinnoh: A character that came out of nowhere having legendaries with literally no build up unlike the Battle Frontier who suppose to rival the Elite 4.
Unova: Lost to a guy who only brough 5 Pokemon who then lost to an Eevee trainer who only needed 3 Pokemon against him
Karlos: All the character development and struggles, defeated by Alain 2 times prior and getting better each time, 20th anniversary, getting an exclusive form for one of his starters...it was build up way to much.
Personally I feel Karlos was the worst because unlike the other 3, it was actually a good anime so far...
Honestly the title of legendary is rather overrated, even in the anime while the title legendaries are essentially considered gods, Pokemon like Zapdos, Darkrai, and Latios are just strong and really rare Pokemon. We've seen multiple of these legendaries and we've seen them be taken down (even their feats are , while great, nothing exceedingly broken) it makes no bloody sense why Heracross didn't straight up one shot Darkrai and that was pure laziness. The pure reason why Ash even has sleep talk was to abuse Guts, it just didn't make any sense why a Megahorn and a Rock Smash didn't do anything.
Just pure laziness and intent to make Ash lose which made me give up on this series after Ash v Paul. I'm doing it again because clearly they haven't learned their lesson.
Just pure laziness and intent to make Ash lose which made me give up on this series after Ash v Paul. I'm doing it again because clearly they haven't learned their lesson.
Cresselia~~
Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Apparently people are so disappointed that they had to make a petition on change.org about it.
And lots of people have signed it, apparently!
And lots of people have signed it, apparently!
I personally doubt that the petition will be of any use, but this is still proof of how disappointed the general audience has been by the handling of the League and the finale.
I'm somewhat curious to see how things will develop, actually…
... what in the world do they think it's going to do? They're not going to change it, at best it just means for the next Pokemon League they'll have Ash win (though since the next region doesn't have a Pokemon League that wait will be even longer if the writers even cared).
The writers won't make any attempt to salvage the ruined plot; Team Flare Arc is going to be just as lazy and off-canon as the Team Plasma finale way.
The only way they even have to make the anime better is to fire all writers involved with the episode and get a completely new team.
The only way they even have to make the anime better is to fire all writers involved with the episode and get a completely new team.
More than a new team, they need a new director (or whoever is in charge of taking the important decisions of the anime). The writers aren't to blame, they only write stuff to follow the general plot. So, hunt down the responsible of the general plot and put in charge someone who truly cares about the show.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11351431/1/Another-Road this might be an interesting read for many of you who want the anime to be better (though I believe most of you already saw it) - it's a split in continuity after Ash lost to Tobias that deals with actually developing his character (the first chapter already deals with him losing the league every time only to go into a new region).