-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
With that all said, while XY/XYZ didn't impress me that much except for certain moments so I'm on board changing the directors/writers, you do know the things you guys liked about it CAME from these directors and writers because they didn't care about writing a Pokemon anime, right? Pokemon Showcases & Ash-Greninja aren't in the games and a director who cares about Pokemon would probably not have made them and stuck to stuff that was in the games.
Now Pokemon Showcases turned out okay even though they were simplified/vague Pokemon Contests, but they came from the writers wanting to write a shojo idol anime which is popular right now. They didn't care about the Pokemon, they wanted to have Serena doing cute things. Showcases sort of made Pokemon tools, the female trainer was very much involved to the point they were the center point and not the Pokemon. A director/writer who cared about Pokemon wouldn't have that happened. If it was me I would probably had Serena focus on becoming a Rhyhorn Rider as that was something in the games. Also her attraction to Ash probably wouldn't exist either. The reason she acted like that was to make her character into waifu material as Ash's character was made bland enough a male fan could put themselves in Ash's place. Rhyhorn Rider Serena probably would either be more rough around the edges/tomboyish or she would have a split life style being a typical girl outside of the races and a serious, no nonsense gal when racing.
As for Ash-Greninja, well verdict is still out whether its in the games or not. Eitherway if wasn't in XY so wouldn't have been included. "But Zygarde's forms aren't in XY either but they were included". Yes, but we now know they exist in the games and Zygarde is from Kalos so it was a natural extension, one which might also go to the Sun & Moon anime. Point is the directors/writers here want to write a shonen battle manga like DBZ where the main character goes through their own super transformations. But you can't really do that with Pokemon, even Mega Evolution has limits and its not special as anyone with a Key Stone can do it. Now a director/writer who would cared about Pokemon wouldn't have cared about that, they would have given Ash a Mega Ring and had him Mega Evolve Pokemon because it's something in the games and they knew from it they could create good and tense battles. But out current writers want to show how strunk they could make the main character by giving him a unique super form plus moves that OHKO... until the plot says not to.
Also the Team Flare plot would probably been more in focus and possibly even cleaned up before the Kalos Pokemon League. We probably also wouldn't have Alain which would be a shame.
Now Pokemon Showcases turned out okay even though they were simplified/vague Pokemon Contests, but they came from the writers wanting to write a shojo idol anime which is popular right now. They didn't care about the Pokemon, they wanted to have Serena doing cute things. Showcases sort of made Pokemon tools, the female trainer was very much involved to the point they were the center point and not the Pokemon. A director/writer who cared about Pokemon wouldn't have that happened. If it was me I would probably had Serena focus on becoming a Rhyhorn Rider as that was something in the games. Also her attraction to Ash probably wouldn't exist either. The reason she acted like that was to make her character into waifu material as Ash's character was made bland enough a male fan could put themselves in Ash's place. Rhyhorn Rider Serena probably would either be more rough around the edges/tomboyish or she would have a split life style being a typical girl outside of the races and a serious, no nonsense gal when racing.
As for Ash-Greninja, well verdict is still out whether its in the games or not. Eitherway if wasn't in XY so wouldn't have been included. "But Zygarde's forms aren't in XY either but they were included". Yes, but we now know they exist in the games and Zygarde is from Kalos so it was a natural extension, one which might also go to the Sun & Moon anime. Point is the directors/writers here want to write a shonen battle manga like DBZ where the main character goes through their own super transformations. But you can't really do that with Pokemon, even Mega Evolution has limits and its not special as anyone with a Key Stone can do it. Now a director/writer who would cared about Pokemon wouldn't have cared about that, they would have given Ash a Mega Ring and had him Mega Evolve Pokemon because it's something in the games and they knew from it they could create good and tense battles. But out current writers want to show how strunk they could make the main character by giving him a unique super form plus moves that OHKO... until the plot says not to.
Also the Team Flare plot would probably been more in focus and possibly even cleaned up before the Kalos Pokemon League. We probably also wouldn't have Alain which would be a shame.
A writer who cares about the show:
-Wouldn't constantly defy the basics of the Pokémon game (like typings, team balance or actually bonding with them rather than ditching them/letting them go as soon as they like something else more)
-Would actually respect the source material and not wipe a character's entire personality and put in his own
-Would care for the themes of the story they adapt and not sideline major plot events for random Team Rocket entries
-Would do quality control and never release an episode that causes mass seizures
-Would realistically assess what Pokémon can do instead of making all sorts of ass pulls (Ground-Types facing Pikachu and any Psychic-Types tend to be the worst offenders)
-Would provide a role model everyone should aspire to rather than a failure to avoid at all costs
-Finally, such a writer would not deny Ash's moment of glory in such a climatic event
Ever since the first season, the writers trampled Pokémon and everything it stands for into the dirt and they haven't done any better ever since - showcases only happen when they're given material with the direction to showcase them.
Yes, there are good moments, but writers who don't know what they're doing can actually do something right by accident.
-Wouldn't constantly defy the basics of the Pokémon game (like typings, team balance or actually bonding with them rather than ditching them/letting them go as soon as they like something else more)
-Would actually respect the source material and not wipe a character's entire personality and put in his own
-Would care for the themes of the story they adapt and not sideline major plot events for random Team Rocket entries
-Would do quality control and never release an episode that causes mass seizures
-Would realistically assess what Pokémon can do instead of making all sorts of ass pulls (Ground-Types facing Pikachu and any Psychic-Types tend to be the worst offenders)
-Would provide a role model everyone should aspire to rather than a failure to avoid at all costs
-Finally, such a writer would not deny Ash's moment of glory in such a climatic event
Ever since the first season, the writers trampled Pokémon and everything it stands for into the dirt and they haven't done any better ever since - showcases only happen when they're given material with the direction to showcase them.
Yes, there are good moments, but writers who don't know what they're doing can actually do something right by accident.
Yes, but the whole purpose of the show is that the main character is supposed to be below a certain point. Ash is an expy for the audience, written in a way that things have to be explained to him, and him learning new things along the way - and so the target audience (kids who just have, or haven't yet, got the games) will learn the same things. Since the audience is constantly renewed, so must Ash's incompetence be. The Anime is an advertisement and introduction to the games. In a way, it teaches kids the basics of Pokémon. Good plot and characters will always take a back seat to those two main priorities.
That being said, there is room for a lot of creativity and cleverness even within those constraints, which the writers tend to under-utilize. There is no good reason why Ash had to lose this league final, for instance. Okay, we know that when the Alola series start he will forget the very basics and lose to some random Pikipek, but that's just as big a disgrace for a Pokémon League finalist as it would be for a Pokémon League winner. Making Ash lose the final doesn't make his imminent drop in competence any more justified or less shameful than it would be if he had won.
TL;DR, I agree that the writers make stupid decisions which hurt the show, but some of the commonly-pointed-out flaws stem from the Anime's purpose, more so than from its writing. There are reasons why certain stupid things (Ash being incompetent, Pikachu getting all the limelight, girls coming and going, Gyms being extremely sparse, etc.) are prioritized over making a good story, and as it stands they would have to be in the Anime regardless of its writing quality. That being said, it would be possible to write around those obstacles, whereas the show currently rams into them without much consideration. The show can never be what we want it to be, but it sure could be a lot better than it currently is.
There's like a million things I could do to be introductory to Pokémon without having to do character assassination on the canon cast, be that game characters or Anime originals:
-Introduce rotating sidekicks who are nearly not as good/experienced as Ash who learn from him
-Make Ash's losses be based more around not utilizing his Pokémon's strengths well or getting into bad matchups rather than the Nakama/Kizuna crap other animes do
-Show off interesting plot elements and twists that actually exist in the game (Silph Co., Radio Tower, Wally, Team Plasma being covert etc.)
-Actually teach things about Pokémon correctly
The anime doesn't advertise as well anymore as the online news and Pokémon GO do, and it straight-up lies about things like Type Matchups and evolving (if they were mistakes, they wouldn't repeat over and over). You can't say the anime is supposed to show off the series and teach the basics if it fails at doing either. It's simply a hackish show that uses the brand name as a crutch to stay on air.
-Introduce rotating sidekicks who are nearly not as good/experienced as Ash who learn from him
-Make Ash's losses be based more around not utilizing his Pokémon's strengths well or getting into bad matchups rather than the Nakama/Kizuna crap other animes do
-Show off interesting plot elements and twists that actually exist in the game (Silph Co., Radio Tower, Wally, Team Plasma being covert etc.)
-Actually teach things about Pokémon correctly
The anime doesn't advertise as well anymore as the online news and Pokémon GO do, and it straight-up lies about things like Type Matchups and evolving (if they were mistakes, they wouldn't repeat over and over). You can't say the anime is supposed to show off the series and teach the basics if it fails at doing either. It's simply a hackish show that uses the brand name as a crutch to stay on air.
Until you realize that dropping a brand with global recognition hurts a franchise more than anything, heck even inland replacing Ash would cost the Pokémon company at least 4 billion over 5 years in marketing alone, without even counting the efforts in design and implementation of a new character.
That's a very stupid thing to say if you know a bit of marketing and know that all forms of Anime are marketing tools, few of them count as forms of art after the 80s multimedia change.
Also blame the odd conception of pokemon on the original director intentions, blank character to showcase crazy ones introduced later, deconstruction of the games standards and tropes and finally dinosaurs on the third movie.
Executive meddling stopped his crazy ride of Ash actually becoming a washed up trainer and instead went with a CotD format that was heavy as fuck in Johto.
Then we got what we have now, also TR is not going away, the japanese audience saved them from getting axed twice.
Japan loves quirky funny pointless TR, we have to live with it. Heck in Mexico the most loved part is the dub of team rocket BEFORE THE ARGENTINIANS complained on them being "ad libing to much" instead of following 4kids bland changes that missed the jokes or the jokes being missed already for being puntastic only on Japanese context and phonetics.
Yes you can name a lot of stuff you dislike, but s1 was a family friendly deconstruction, not anything good or remarkable, Johto was a CotD season with some game elements sprinkled in, s3 was swellow being the writers saving throw for bad writing with a Co star for time slot coverage in May, and Sinnoh was monferno spotlight stealing squad along piplup and Dawn destroying everyone else record followed by Paul and Cynthia being creators pets with foreshadowed executive meddling, aka piplup not evolving and Trollbias along the first axe attempt at TR.
Unova was a mistake, Japanese folks hated new TR and an eq destroyed an arc they banked too hard on, Ash portrayal was mediocre though, there is no excuse for this.
XY took a peripheral demographic change and actually delivered on worldwide vs Japanese team rocket and we got they even to a point they can't be hated, we got a waifu, we got a new art direction but shamefully we got executive meddling and out of directors focus moments.
Sadly everything good that XY did is going to the shitter after this, as the idiotic producers won't blame it on the unova writers, but blame the entire show low ratings on the quality changes that didn't deliver and instead might bastardize Ash to Unova level and make TR more prominent than ever as it was liked by both demographic groups WITH MORE CotD EPISODES AS THEY ARE LOW RISK!
TLDR they where always idiots and we saw light as peripheral demographic on few good changes, quality increase and even continuity nods that make people place Sinnoh high because they felt rewarded as long time viewers even if the battle choreography was shit.
Last edited:
I never said it would be more profitable. I said it would be better.
They still have Pikachu, who is a bigger icon. I'm pretty sure keeping the mouse around is all that's needed. Besides, how much merch actually has Ash's face plastered on it?
Too lazy to retort to Codraroll right now.
Neither Team Rocket (with that I mean Jessie, James & Meowth) nor Ash & Pikachu really bother me - all that needs to be done is to tone down TR's presence a little bit but don't actually change how they act. Ash just needs actual character development and Pikachu does fine as a mascot and partner function (after all, Ash does tend to have another Pokémon as the heavy hitter of his team) - just don't try and circumvent its type (dis-)advantage all the time.
I'd sooner fire everyone from the entire team and make a completely new team do the anime (that includes catering staff, back office workers and so on) than replace the main characters since unlike shitty producers/writers, you -can- salvage those.
I'd sooner fire everyone from the entire team and make a completely new team do the anime (that includes catering staff, back office workers and so on) than replace the main characters since unlike shitty producers/writers, you -can- salvage those.
I might be a little too reactive. Ash losing to Tobias, at least Ash managed to retain his dignity with the last tie, but the way they pull that legendary guy out of nowhere is what I can't get over until now. Oh well....
At least the unpredictableness of the next future this time is a little more complicated. I'll just see how it goes.
At least, I like the Showcases part as it brings fresh air. It reminds me of PokeSpe BW's White and how Pokemon wanted to dance with humans. We don't have the showtime sidequest in Kalos, so they just have to make one, but they do have other attractions like the Rhyhorn race and Sky trainers (both of which are only shown one time in anime and the former only by mom in XY although I'm interested as part of Kalos' culture, sigh). Speaking of which, sky battle will be ditched out too? Won't be surprised if it will.
I can only see how they will do Flare act. I already have great pessimism....
Anyway, someone suggested a way to get in the story. Alan seems to soon face Ash again. Knowing Lys' mad plan, he could either team up with Ash to beat him and give up his league winner title after that as he helped an evil plan, or be forced to face Ash the second time as Lys take Hari-san and Manon's wellbeing hostage and have Ash win this time before he kick Lys' rear end and give up his league winner title after that. There is still hope. Especially that they say it is underwhelming battle, especially compared to previous battle against Shota. This can just be a build up to this Flare Act.
Last edited:
I don't want to interrupt the current topic (and honestly I agree with most people's sentiments about it being pretty crap that Ash lost so I don't have much to add there...) but I just started watching the indigo league and have finished the first 20 or so episodes and wanted to share how pleasantly surprised I was about how engaging it was/has been.
I'm not sure if it's just the Pokemon fanboy that I've unearthed deep inside of me or if it's that the first couple episodes are genuinely decent due to the anime being in its infancy but I just don't remember the episodes I watched when I was a kid as being this good! The synergy between the main characters is really good and actually genuine I feel, and TR's antics don't feel boring/repetitive. Maybe that's my age showing, but I just feel super engaged so far. I haven't skipped any episodes because even so-called "filler" episodes have been pretty enjoyable. I guess maybe this was before they got the pacing down but I don't really feel like I've seen a bad/boring episode and things feel like they're moving on a good pace, if not a little too quickly.
I think what's really worked so far is the fact that Ash is genuinely a beginner at this point in his Pokemon career. His antics are relatable because you know that Ash's perspective is that of a beginner so him bragging/his battling mistakes are actually sort of funny and understandable/not frusturating. I can see why the writers would want to recapture this character state of Ash in BW, even if it sounds like that didn't really work out (imo DPP probably should've been the culmination of Ash's arc and a potential transfer to a new beginner, esp. given the nature of the BW games). He/brock/misty just all feel really genuine and it's made watching the show a ton of fun to watch so far.
I'm not sure if I'll actually end up watching every episode and catch up with XYZ due to time constraints/burn out from the show. But so far I'm really happy that I've revisited the anime!
I'm not sure if it's just the Pokemon fanboy that I've unearthed deep inside of me or if it's that the first couple episodes are genuinely decent due to the anime being in its infancy but I just don't remember the episodes I watched when I was a kid as being this good! The synergy between the main characters is really good and actually genuine I feel, and TR's antics don't feel boring/repetitive. Maybe that's my age showing, but I just feel super engaged so far. I haven't skipped any episodes because even so-called "filler" episodes have been pretty enjoyable. I guess maybe this was before they got the pacing down but I don't really feel like I've seen a bad/boring episode and things feel like they're moving on a good pace, if not a little too quickly.
I think what's really worked so far is the fact that Ash is genuinely a beginner at this point in his Pokemon career. His antics are relatable because you know that Ash's perspective is that of a beginner so him bragging/his battling mistakes are actually sort of funny and understandable/not frusturating. I can see why the writers would want to recapture this character state of Ash in BW, even if it sounds like that didn't really work out (imo DPP probably should've been the culmination of Ash's arc and a potential transfer to a new beginner, esp. given the nature of the BW games). He/brock/misty just all feel really genuine and it's made watching the show a ton of fun to watch so far.
I'm not sure if I'll actually end up watching every episode and catch up with XYZ due to time constraints/burn out from the show. But so far I'm really happy that I've revisited the anime!
I want you guys to consider something - What if, in the anime's narrative, Ash is supposed to lose every league tournament? Ignore the generation it is, ignore the next coming generation, just think about the rule of "Ash is supposed to lose".
Now with this in mind, consider looking at this loss a different way: Ash actually made it to the finals, of all things. A huge jump compared to Unova's Top 16 (Unova itself being a mess of anime problems), and every battle Ash faced, being against someone he met over the course of the journey. So what if he lost? That gives Ash incentive to continue to improve himself, versus winning one league, perhaps losing to the E4 and well... We'd probably have a similar result.
The aspect of Ash _needing_ to win a league tournament sounds very superficial, even by the anime's standards - Being a Pokemon Master is such a vague concept. It certainly can't be filling up the entire Pokedex, because ever since Gen 1, Ash cannot possibly see every Pokemon in the series (As Porygon2 and Z are unoffically banned from being shown on TV). So maybe it's him winning a league tournament? But as we've seen with at least Virgil, the ranger kid doesn't seem to consider himself a master at anything, only that his team of Eevees are strong enough to be given an award for their strength.
I just personally felt this anger, whether hyperbolic or genuine, could use another perspective at looking at things. Admittedly I haven't watched the anime loyally (Only the dub, and random episodes at that), as a freelance writer, I never think "Only this way is the correct way/How dare the writer do so-and-so", it's so much more important for me to think "Why did the writer do this? Let me try to get in his head".
Oh, and by the way, I never thought of Ash being a character who shouldn't exist in the anime. It isn't his character so much that's the problem, it's HOW his character is used. Having a youthful, spunky kid who relies more on getting to know his Pokemon better, isn't inherently bad. That would be silly. The reason why Unova in general was received so poorly is a mountain of Words I could discuss later, but Ash is far from the problem with that, or with this current saga.
Now with this in mind, consider looking at this loss a different way: Ash actually made it to the finals, of all things. A huge jump compared to Unova's Top 16 (Unova itself being a mess of anime problems), and every battle Ash faced, being against someone he met over the course of the journey. So what if he lost? That gives Ash incentive to continue to improve himself, versus winning one league, perhaps losing to the E4 and well... We'd probably have a similar result.
The aspect of Ash _needing_ to win a league tournament sounds very superficial, even by the anime's standards - Being a Pokemon Master is such a vague concept. It certainly can't be filling up the entire Pokedex, because ever since Gen 1, Ash cannot possibly see every Pokemon in the series (As Porygon2 and Z are unoffically banned from being shown on TV). So maybe it's him winning a league tournament? But as we've seen with at least Virgil, the ranger kid doesn't seem to consider himself a master at anything, only that his team of Eevees are strong enough to be given an award for their strength.
I just personally felt this anger, whether hyperbolic or genuine, could use another perspective at looking at things. Admittedly I haven't watched the anime loyally (Only the dub, and random episodes at that), as a freelance writer, I never think "Only this way is the correct way/How dare the writer do so-and-so", it's so much more important for me to think "Why did the writer do this? Let me try to get in his head".
Oh, and by the way, I never thought of Ash being a character who shouldn't exist in the anime. It isn't his character so much that's the problem, it's HOW his character is used. Having a youthful, spunky kid who relies more on getting to know his Pokemon better, isn't inherently bad. That would be silly. The reason why Unova in general was received so poorly is a mountain of Words I could discuss later, but Ash is far from the problem with that, or with this current saga.
The original writer actually wanted to make Ash a washout trainer and a memetic loser from the beginning so you aren't far from it.
Executive meddling threw him a bone twice with the non official leagues.
I already summed up unova issues, critical research favor, peripheral demographic focus, arc abortion, nostalgia pandering done wrong, character out of focus.
Heck the Eevee guy is a fan favorite in Japan despite him being the unfought.
Executive meddling threw him a bone twice with the non official leagues.
I already summed up unova issues, critical research favor, peripheral demographic focus, arc abortion, nostalgia pandering done wrong, character out of focus.
Heck the Eevee guy is a fan favorite in Japan despite him being the unfought.
I personally really don't like the anime anymore. I'm very curious about what you think of my point of view. I took a tiny break earlier and I just tried getting into it again, but I just couldn't. Kanto and Johto Ash are by far the only times where the character has been anywhere remotely interesting. He was learning, he still had the generic traits that define him today like the excessive enthusiasm and willingness to help but he had other interesting traits like his cockyness and hotheadness. No, I'm not saying he should be the same character forever, but Ash doesn't develop anymore. The loss in the Kanto league taught him humility (plus, it was uncommon for a Shounen hero to fail) and in the orange islands his character arc with Charizard ended. Then in Johto he was a lot calmer but still retained some interesting traits, and then his rivalry with Gary was concluded in a great way.
The point is that they do NOTHING interesting with the character anymore (besides perhaps his rivalry with Paul in DP). He learns NOTHING from his losses. What did these last few league losses teach him? Nothing. Even his Pokemon seem to have no personality anymore, besides Hawlucha. Where's the bonding phase that Ash had to go through with some Pokemon? Now they love him out of the get-go.
Why do people keep saying that XY is the best season yet? In my honest opinion it's not. It's very predictable and repetitive, and it really doesn't have the excuse that the first two seasons have. Also his original outfit is still the best. And no, I'm not nostalgiafaggotring. Look at it from an objective viewpoint and you'll see the first two seasons are the only times the anime gets anywhere close to decent in regards to characterization and character development (because, let's face it, the plot is shit no matter which season).
But hey, at least people got their flashy fights, right?
The point is that they do NOTHING interesting with the character anymore (besides perhaps his rivalry with Paul in DP). He learns NOTHING from his losses. What did these last few league losses teach him? Nothing. Even his Pokemon seem to have no personality anymore, besides Hawlucha. Where's the bonding phase that Ash had to go through with some Pokemon? Now they love him out of the get-go.
Why do people keep saying that XY is the best season yet? In my honest opinion it's not. It's very predictable and repetitive, and it really doesn't have the excuse that the first two seasons have. Also his original outfit is still the best. And no, I'm not nostalgiafaggotring. Look at it from an objective viewpoint and you'll see the first two seasons are the only times the anime gets anywhere close to decent in regards to characterization and character development (because, let's face it, the plot is shit no matter which season).
But hey, at least people got their flashy fights, right?
Last edited:
I agree - the original episodes are theoretically as bad as the new ones, except the tropes in the original series weren't done to death when it aired. The league losses in Kanto & Johto actually made sense in the narrative, as I explained earlier: In Kanto, it was a genuine twist (and the protag losing in an important tournament/trial isn't common in shonen series, but it does happen) and in Johto, it was to do a showcase of the next generation (the Johto previews were more than mediocre, plus, the new 100 were mostly overshadowed in-game). All the other times, it was just followed through without any reason to do so.
There's also the argument brought up of Ash being more of a compassionate rather than competitive trainer - guess what, they'll slice out all in-game plots where they could explore it (Marowak ghost, the Dragon's Den trial, Silver (although they did a variant on this with Paul, he's basically Silver with none of his character development), Wally, N...).
Also, I disagree on the first seasons being good at characterization - while there is some character development involving Ash in particular, the worst out-of-character moments are all in the original season: Erika, Sabrina, Lorelei and Agatha are all prime examples of it. And not introducing LANCE THE DRAGON MASTER until Johto (where his importance is undermined) was a mistake. Lastly, while the anime's Team Rocket is nothing I mind having around, they still didn't have to sacrifice the bigger TR arcs from the story. There are indeed a few good story moments and some other character add-ons that don't really clash with the 'core' character (such as Oak being a poet), for the most part, Season 1 is as true to the source material as My Immortal.
From before the finale with Ash-Greninja and Mega Charizard X, people were complaining the fights were lazy and rushed (which is all battles Ash-Greninja isn't involved in) - not to mention that the battle choreography doesn't hold a candle to The Strongest Mega Evolution or even Pokémon Origins.
Battle choreography in origins?
A bunch of slideshows and a jolteon getting Koed by thunder bolt? Sorry dude but many of origins choreography relied on cut out scenes, if you mean schyter vs onyx in the last slide show before the main slide show we might have an issue here.
Want good choreography out of pokemon? Vs Drake in Orange, vs Vito in johto, vs Harrison Johto, vs Katie in Hoenn, vs Conway in Sinnoh(yes this one is better than vs Paul as it doesn't have 4 fallguys with two from the other side) and vs Shota for leagues.
I'm sorry but Paul fight is a choreographic catastrophe that people put high for the emotional value and type wild playing at a literal bashing fight that stopped having coherence even before it's climax.
A bunch of slideshows and a jolteon getting Koed by thunder bolt? Sorry dude but many of origins choreography relied on cut out scenes, if you mean schyter vs onyx in the last slide show before the main slide show we might have an issue here.
Want good choreography out of pokemon? Vs Drake in Orange, vs Vito in johto, vs Harrison Johto, vs Katie in Hoenn, vs Conway in Sinnoh(yes this one is better than vs Paul as it doesn't have 4 fallguys with two from the other side) and vs Shota for leagues.
I'm sorry but Paul fight is a choreographic catastrophe that people put high for the emotional value and type wild playing at a literal bashing fight that stopped having coherence even before it's climax.
Yeah, it was more about story than battles, plus being constrained into only 4 episodes. The only decently long battle was vs. Mewtwo - still, those would be considered among the better ones compared to the anime (especially the first season, where many 'fights' are completely foregone in favor of slapstick humor).
Some of the criticism here is absurd. How lofty can your expectations be for an anime that is very clearly targeted towards children? It's like when people criticize the games for not doing certain things. Like, no matter how old you are they are still targeted towards kids.
Not only that, but this is serialized programming with no definite end in sight. Nearly every character in serialized fiction undergoes changes and then the slate is wiped clean again because their stories do not end. Comic book fans complain about this all the time as well but there is nothing to complain about. Just really understand what media you're getting into.
Ash & Pikachu are like Mickey Mouse, Spider-man, Tom and Jerry, Scooby-Doo, Batman, etc. You might grow up and still be interested in these characters, but they're never going to grow up with you.
Anyway, there's an interesting theory that Alain's Charizard-X has become unnaturally powerful because of the collected mega evolution energy that's become stored in his keystone, leaving Lysandre to take it from him to power up his Mega Gyarados the same way. Alain would feel crushed that Charizard X's strength wasn't his own and probably give up his trophy to Ash.
I thought this was an interesting and plausible theory but I really hope it isn't, because Alain & his Charizard really did train hard.
Not only that, but this is serialized programming with no definite end in sight. Nearly every character in serialized fiction undergoes changes and then the slate is wiped clean again because their stories do not end. Comic book fans complain about this all the time as well but there is nothing to complain about. Just really understand what media you're getting into.
Ash & Pikachu are like Mickey Mouse, Spider-man, Tom and Jerry, Scooby-Doo, Batman, etc. You might grow up and still be interested in these characters, but they're never going to grow up with you.
Anyway, there's an interesting theory that Alain's Charizard-X has become unnaturally powerful because of the collected mega evolution energy that's become stored in his keystone, leaving Lysandre to take it from him to power up his Mega Gyarados the same way. Alain would feel crushed that Charizard X's strength wasn't his own and probably give up his trophy to Ash.
I thought this was an interesting and plausible theory but I really hope it isn't, because Alain & his Charizard really did train hard.
Anime garnered toward children can't gave good animation? Excuse me! Have you ever watched PreCure?
The old animators of DB doing their best on this franchise and even though we have a slight case of stock footage abuse in this series they always find ways to avert it, heck cure peace had 6 different transformation sequences thanks to her gimmick something unheard of in magical girls, DoReMi is known for its animation jumps and bouncyness through all of its seasons.
Quality is a thing dude, sadly you weren't exposed to it or choose to overlook it, even then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on children shows, even on cash cow marketing franchises such as PreCure.
Also Tom and Jerry? The kings of slapstick animation, dude I don't know what have you watched of them but outside of reused footages during chases each frame was animated individually to showcase impact, there is very few instances of lazy animation here.
Heck even the Chuck Jones Era that had minimalistic animation gave us gems like "The bear that wasn't" in wich the industrialist take and music don't make us notice the reused footage.
Do you realize that the Arcs of killer Croc, Clayface and Dr Freeze are Batman the animated series original? Even on baby doll, the creeper and penguin goes good we actually have continuity nods aimed to its peripheral demographic? The show actually grew with us during this continuity of the DC universe.
Quality exists in both formats of animation.
Spiderman did do a by the books adaptation without a single fist fight, fuck the censors, and Scooby-Doo is lazy as fuck outside of the movies I can't agree more here.
I stripped myself down from my nostalgia and on technical level most shows aren't lazy, heck I'll always praise Wander over Yonder for giving me bits of animation reminiscent of the Steven Spielberg animation Era with the twist and turn techniques.
Last edited:
I thought the fight against Drake in Orange was by far the best 6 on 6 fight if not the best fight. I didn't feel any Pokemon that got defeated was worthless besides maybe Bulbasaur.
What I can't stand about Pokemon since DPP was probably that characters move around each other with "insane speed" and unnecassy unnatural scenes.
From Hoenn the best example would be Mai's Blaziken vs Ash's Sceptile when the battle begins and they do an unnessecary flip and the example for "flying around each other", the entire fight against Skyla.
The flip the fully evolte starters did make sense in context of what kind of battle they are in, but the way it was animated felt cheap like an episode of DBS.
As for the Skyla fight, the flying types were flying around aimlessly not even trying to dodge or catch an opponent (besides the climax of the battle with Swanna and Gen 5 fully evolved bird).
But overall, I did enjoy quite a few battles of Sinnoh and Karlos...and Hoenn during Battle Frontier.
What I can't stand about Pokemon since DPP was probably that characters move around each other with "insane speed" and unnecassy unnatural scenes.
From Hoenn the best example would be Mai's Blaziken vs Ash's Sceptile when the battle begins and they do an unnessecary flip and the example for "flying around each other", the entire fight against Skyla.
The flip the fully evolte starters did make sense in context of what kind of battle they are in, but the way it was animated felt cheap like an episode of DBS.
As for the Skyla fight, the flying types were flying around aimlessly not even trying to dodge or catch an opponent (besides the climax of the battle with Swanna and Gen 5 fully evolved bird).
But overall, I did enjoy quite a few battles of Sinnoh and Karlos...and Hoenn during Battle Frontier.
I haven't heard of PreCure, but I did love and watch every animated thing Bruce Timm has done including BTAS. The difference with that show is firstly it is episodic -- there's no long term goal even comparable to Ash's. Bruce just wants to fight crime and the bad guys want to end him. Rinse and repeat. The dialogue and writing is ace on that show but that was more because of Paul Dini than anything DC mandated.
Also LOL @ the idea of continuity in the DCU.
I'll write an FAQ-ish section to answer any generic attack on legit criticism towards the anime:
1. It's for kids, it doesn't have to be good
There is plenty of amazing animation, both in the 3D animatronic and the 2D drawing section, which is outstanding in graphical quality, character immersion, storytelling or multiple of these. Not having any standards with Kid's shows inevitably makes people not demand standards from other shows, which will degrade the quality of the medium as a whole. The lack of quality caused even kids to dislike the show (like me, though I was mainly hating on the main characters/antagonists instead all the other things like I do now) since even they want something good.
2. You're just not the right audience
It's actually much more of a problem than you think - The problem with low-quality writing and cheap animation without any meaningful narrative is that it doesn't appeal to children more, it alienates and frustrates all audiences except children (as mentioned above, even they drop off sometimes). So the show is actually going out of its way to make the older demographic dislike it more.
3. It's necessary to maintain status quo to extend the show
Was Simpsons ruined by the fact that Maude Flanders died? That Selma adopted a child? Or by Barney getting a license to fly a helicopter? As we see in The Simpsons, there is room to develop characters, introduce new staples or even kill off cast members and still keep running (There's still the non-aging characters, but that's fine imo). Even if you think that a developed Ash means you have little room for growth, you could just put some focus on new trainers and their struggles while still having Ash around, sometimes as mentor, as a friend, partner, rival...
Addendum: The reason Comic Books pull reboots is mainly because they're done with a different writer who prefers not running with the current baggage of development or because a series has gone down the gutter and needs a fresh start.
4. The show can't do that, it has to advertise the games and show off the basics
First off all, it fails at doing either - the show puts too little focus on Pokémon team synergy, mechanics such as held items, TMs&HMs, breeding or even battling for it to really show off what you can do and when it comes to basics like type advantage, the show flat out lies about such things (no, you can't circumvent type immunities/weaknesses like that, switch to something with a type advantage for that). I could easily trim a bunch of filler off of the show (regardless of season) and replace it with things that actually exist in-game.
1. It's for kids, it doesn't have to be good
There is plenty of amazing animation, both in the 3D animatronic and the 2D drawing section, which is outstanding in graphical quality, character immersion, storytelling or multiple of these. Not having any standards with Kid's shows inevitably makes people not demand standards from other shows, which will degrade the quality of the medium as a whole. The lack of quality caused even kids to dislike the show (like me, though I was mainly hating on the main characters/antagonists instead all the other things like I do now) since even they want something good.
2. You're just not the right audience
It's actually much more of a problem than you think - The problem with low-quality writing and cheap animation without any meaningful narrative is that it doesn't appeal to children more, it alienates and frustrates all audiences except children (as mentioned above, even they drop off sometimes). So the show is actually going out of its way to make the older demographic dislike it more.
3. It's necessary to maintain status quo to extend the show
Was Simpsons ruined by the fact that Maude Flanders died? That Selma adopted a child? Or by Barney getting a license to fly a helicopter? As we see in The Simpsons, there is room to develop characters, introduce new staples or even kill off cast members and still keep running (There's still the non-aging characters, but that's fine imo). Even if you think that a developed Ash means you have little room for growth, you could just put some focus on new trainers and their struggles while still having Ash around, sometimes as mentor, as a friend, partner, rival...
Addendum: The reason Comic Books pull reboots is mainly because they're done with a different writer who prefers not running with the current baggage of development or because a series has gone down the gutter and needs a fresh start.
4. The show can't do that, it has to advertise the games and show off the basics
First off all, it fails at doing either - the show puts too little focus on Pokémon team synergy, mechanics such as held items, TMs&HMs, breeding or even battling for it to really show off what you can do and when it comes to basics like type advantage, the show flat out lies about such things (no, you can't circumvent type immunities/weaknesses like that, switch to something with a type advantage for that). I could easily trim a bunch of filler off of the show (regardless of season) and replace it with things that actually exist in-game.
This continuity actually lasted for some time, mostly showcased through Batman though.
But yes never forget how many owlman we have had so far.
Try watching Miraculous ladybug if you can, it's a Co work of Japanese and French Animation and it's honestly among the best episodic animation I have seen with CGI involved, heck just like GI Joe I dare to call it true Anime given the staff involved even if it pisses of some purists.
Anime is a marketing tool, and it has been like this since the mid 80s,there is no way around it.
Western animation is more free on what it can portray excluding the censorship barrier and executive meddling, but by nature western animation is actually allowed to be free outside of source material or branding like Anime does.
To keep things straight, it's hard to call pokemon a SoL or a shounen. I mean I would appreciate full SoL moments without TR intrusion just to showcase a Pokémon of the day in their habitat or how it's habits influence people(CotD focus) but honestly that's far from becoming a reality since the writers tend to use TR as comedy relief/drama to create conflict, I can't blame them since Japan adores TR and even Mexico loves JAMEMEMEMES before the mouth gag they put on ad lib, and they are very effective at it, but giving them some rest would be for the better in some episodes where they actually ruin the pace.
Last edited:
The Simpsons is a horrible example. Unlike the Simpsons, the Pokemon anime exists to sell games and merchandise. The Simpsons can be artistic and is mostly it intended to satirize things.
I think you guys are grasping on to things I haven't actually said but you're inferring. There are good animated shows out there with kids as a target audience. But without any actual petition or dialogue towards the TPCI nothing will change because for a lot of kids out there, it's enough. A lot of my friend's kids absolutely love the current show and they've never watched anything like the Kanto series or even Hoenn.
If I learned anything from the last few posts, it's that the Pokemon anime rivals paper and hay as one of the most flammable things in the universe.
The anime sucks, always have, always will. Ash is pretty much destined to lose every league challenge until the end of the franchise for the sake of an easy cop-out to continue the show to the next generation. Just accept that the anime's primary purpose is a marketing tool towards kids and move on.
The anime sucks, always have, always will. Ash is pretty much destined to lose every league challenge until the end of the franchise for the sake of an easy cop-out to continue the show to the next generation. Just accept that the anime's primary purpose is a marketing tool towards kids and move on.
I can accept that nothing good comes out of the show, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out the narrative flaws in the Pokémon Anime as well as the reasons why it fails to actually market the games in any way beyond using the Pokémon brand name. As stated several times before, all the animé does is clinging to a popular brand to stay relevant, it has no merit on its own.