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SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Jellicent, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. NikBrusk

    NikBrusk

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    Pretty accurate. People are still mad about Brock and Misty not being there despite the fact that it's the movie's a retelling of the first episode and that they are already coming back in Sun and Moon.
  2. Karxrida

    Karxrida Sorcerous Prince
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    It's not a retelling of the first episode lol.

    Like that's definitely a part of the movie, but it's not the plot at all.
    Mova likes this.
  3. AnimeEdy

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    I think following just the main trainer around wouldn't be awful. I understand they would need friends to talk to to understand thoughts/feelings/reasoning, as well as moral guidance. But honestly the side characters have been a bit weak.
    Wouldn't you like to see Ash just focus on his actual Pokemon? Maybe seeing him take them out more and talking to them, even watching how he trains them. He could encounter interesting stories along the roads with various people, and maybe extend those arcs.
    I think he is a weak lead character anyway tbh. I would love to see him really try to be the best trainer he can be and focus entirely on that.
    NikBrusk and Pikachu315111 like this.
  4. precita

    precita

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    Dude, it's a kids show. Had Ash been traveling alone his character and his pokemon would have been handled exactly the same. This is not real life, characters don't magically change outside the writers whims. Ash has traveling companions for the same reason every popular kids show has friends/companions outside whoever the main hero is. The anime has been running for 20 years, I find it bizarre we're discussing this in 2017.

    Anyhoo, Misty/Brock are clearly only appearing now for the 20th anniversary. The writers had no problem allowing Misty to fade into oblivion for 12 years since her last cameo back in Hoenn since 2005, so had it not been the 20th anniversary this year most likely she would continue to not appear at all. Same for Brock, and it's why they're in their Kanto outfits. This is nothing more than a 2-ep nostalgia fest for a bunch of 25-30 year old adults who grew up with Kanto two decades ago.

    Now if the writers continue to bring back more old characters after this then maybe it'll be a different story, but I don't think it will happen. Whenever nostalgia-fests happen it's always focused on Kanto for some reason, rather than all the other gens which are now decade old themselves. It's actually hard to believe even the DP series began over 10 years ago in 2006, and even Dawn is now an over decade old character now. Fun fact: Dawn is as old now as Misty was when DP started.
    ZettaiRyouiki likes this.
  5. Frozocrone

    Frozocrone

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    So that's an episode I'll be watching again.
  6. mertyville

    mertyville

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    This episode was really fun to watch. Kinda weird that Misty is still scared of Gyarados even though by now she had trained one herself. Guess not having a year passed prevents her development too.
    Now I am not sure if the Marowak belongs to Brock since they showed off some of Oak's Pokemon like Executtor and Alolan Geodude. But he did spend some time with the other pokemon dinning so who knows.

    Also the animation is so fluent, I can't stop thinking about it. Also I like how Jigglypuff and Bewear arrived at Kanto.

    Looking forward to next episode to see how much both Brock and Misty have improved. Both use Pokemon that have type disadvantage though Steelix should have Ground and Rock Type moves against Turtonator.
    Prof. Almeida, OM! and Mova like this.
  7. OM!

    OM!

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    I'm slightly surprised that after watching the episode, I realized there is no Tracey. Wow, and just when you thought Iris was ignored. Tracey literally lives without professor Oak, and technically he is still generation 1.
    Sure, he has Marill, but that's like saying Misty had Togepi.

    Anyways, I hope Misty is showcased more, Misty should sort of be a role model to the girls, rather than be impressed by the Piplup trainer, hopefully next episode she will show she is truly a gym leader.
    Speaking of, looks like Brock and Misty have since taken back their gyms from their family.

    Kinda disappointing Brock doesn't have more than 2 Rock types: Geodude and Sudowoodo.
    Like seriously, https://www.serebii.net/anime/characters/brock.shtml

    Also, interestingly enough the first Pokémon Contest was in Gen 2, sorry May, Dawn, and Serena. Brock got to participate: https://www.serebii.net/anime/epiguide/johto/171.shtml
  8. Prof. Almeida

    Prof. Almeida

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    I loved the episode and I honestly would like if they had trips to other regions as well. That would be part of "learning" experience, and could have Ash introducing his old pals to the new ones. So much nostalgia, so much fun and that ending... oh!
  9. precita

    precita

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    It's funny how Misty without a baby pokemon in her arms makes her so lively and energetic again like she was in early/mid Kanto. A real shame Misty's personality was so dulled down after she got Togepi and especially after we got into Johto. I sometimes forget how "fun" Misty can be without a baby pokemon in her arms.

    It's almost as if the writers have used all of Misty's post-OS specials and cameos to fix all the mistakes they made with her when she was on the cast. Misty really should have been an active battler and experienced water pokemon trainer in her run, but we virtually never saw that when she was a main character. I honestly think all of Misty's best moments in the anime have happened after she left the cast. During the Johto saga you would forget Misty even had pokemon.
    Prof. Almeida and mertyville like this.
  10. OM!

    OM!

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    One highlight: The whirl cup! She not only defeated ash, (revenge for ash beating her and winning Tododile), but really put Corsola on par with her Staryu in terms of usage and wins. I agree, both Misty and Brock started off better than ash but simply let him surpass them. I'm hoping Misty and Brock actually win their battles next episode. Never thought I would be saying that about 2 characters on such a long hiatus.

    Since it is early in Ash's journey for this region, and since Brock and Misty have seemingly been training as gym leaders, the writers have every incentive for Brock and Misty to win their respective battles and not diminish ash too much. After all, it's not XYZ where Ash-Greninja would be on type and par with Misty's Mega Gyarados.
    Prof. Almeida likes this.
  11. Pikachu315111

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    Ah, but you forgot about one thing: Z-Moves.

    Misty and Brock Mega Evolve their Gyarados and Steelix, respectively.
    Ash and Kiawe use Gigavolt Havok & Inferno Overdrive, respectively.
    Z-Moves OHKO Mega Pokemon.

    OH MEE GURD! LOOK HOW POWERFUL Z-MOVES ARE! THEY OHKOED MEGA POKEMON! Obviously this means Z-Moves are way better than Mega Evolutions and, oh look, Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are releasing more Z-Moves! Buy them now and experience the Mega curb stomping power of Z-Moves!

    But in reality... yeah, Misty and Brock probably should win. :P
  12. precita

    precita

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    I think Ash will beat Misty, but Kiawe will beat Brock. I don't think they'd have both Misty/Brock win, likewise they wouldn't have both Ash/Kiawe lose either to make it seem like Z-moves do nothing. Most likely one or the other would win.

    Makes sense for Ash to beat Misty properly in a "real" battle without any handicaps, no Psyduck getting a headache, no Team Rocket interupting, but between two of their strongest pokemon (Gyarados and Pikachu). Ash has beaten Misty before (he was on the verge of winning the Cerulean Gym as Starmie nearly fainted before TR showed up, Bulbasaur tickled Psyduck and beat her in the match for Togepi, I think Ash partly won the match for Totodile although I've forgotten how it went, etc). Only real time Misty won was the Whirl Cup because of Psyduck, which as said shouldn't count as a real battle because Psyduck is just a DEM machine that wins out of nowhere.

    Granted, this is the writers who also have Ash lose constantly even when he shouldn't (every league despite build-up, etc), so they could just make him lose out of spite because apparently Ash winning is a bad thing.
  13. Pikachu315111

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    I'm disappointed to see that, once again, they decided to not feature that many of Ash's Pokemon. According to Bulbapedia its just Bulbasaur, Squirtle (what in the world is the Squirtle Squad doing in Professor Oak's lab? Was it decided to keep them at Oak's Lab and transport them to wherever there's a fire?), Muk, and Tauros. Also Totodile and Corphish make a small cameo appearance when Misty and Lana go swimming. Actually, that's alright, they don't have to make major appearances, they could appear in quick cameos interacting with the companions as they're looking around the lab.

    Misty & Lana: To extend on Totodile and Corphish they could has also included Kingler, Buizel, Oshawott, and Palpitoad.
    Mallow: Have here and Steenee meet Bayleef, Sceptile, and Snivy. As a joke they can have Steenee get excited and release its sweet aroma which don't do anything to Bayleef and Snivy but has Sceptile fall in love with it (only for it to be smacked away when it invades its space).
    Kiawe: ... Kiawe has a Charizard... Ash has a Charizard... WHY DIDN'T WE SEE CHARIZARD VS CHARIZARD?! GAH! No, instead Kiawe gets a scene were he rides a Rapidash and it's his Alolan Marowak that gets into a rivalry with a Kantonian Marowak that Brock seemingly owns. Thinking about it, we don't really know much about Kiawe's Charizard's personality, this would have been a nice chance to see how it's like. Would it be as prideful as Ash's Charizard, both engaging in a roaring match upon seeing each other? Would it be laid back and reject a roaring challenge from Ash's Charizard? Meanwhile they could also have Pignite and Quilava appear, or just Pignite while cameoing Quilava in a scene interacting with Litten.
    Lillie: She's in a place full of Pokemon and they didn't have one moment of her panicking because a Pokemon touched her? Sure, the scene with Kantonian Ninetales licking Snowy was cute but that's really all Lillie did. How about her meeting Gliscor, Gible, and/or Scraggy, Pokemon that like to make physical contact, maybe ending with them encounter Leavanny who calms the situation down. Snowy could also meet Glalie, have a joke where Glalie breathed cold air on Snowy who than uses Powder Snow to freeze it to Glalie's surprise.
    Misty Bug Freak Out: Instead of a Caterpie how about Heracross.
    Rowlet: Have Ash's flying types race by (Noctowl, Swellow, Staraptor, Unfezant, Talonflame, & Noivern) and have Ash try introducing Rowlet to them... only for Rowlet to be asleep in Ash's backpack. As a joke Ash could try waking it up to join the race but it freaks out and flies into what it thinks is a tree, only for the screen to pull back to reveal its Torterra.
    Lycanroc: Have it make friends with Donphan, Boldore, and Torkoal. A joke could be that Donphan and Boldore don't mind being rubbed by its rock collar but when it does it to Torkoal it begins crying.
    Team Rocket Attack: There's no reason all of Ash's Pokemon didn't show up to start beating up on Team Rocket's mecha. This is where they could have Infernape, Krookodile, and Hawlucha come in for their cameo.
    Snack Time: Maybe instead of eating in the lab they eat outside which is where Snorlax shows up and starts chowing down.

    There, I just made a cameo moment for EVERY ONE of Ash's Pokemon at Oak's lab.
    Codraroll and Mova like this.
  14. precita

    precita

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    Yeah. The writers also couldn't even be bothered to show Tracey despite the fact that he actually works at Oak's lab, and he's not in next weeks ep either. The last time they even put Tracey in an episode was the very last AG episode before Ash headed off to Sinnoh. Tracey refereed the Ash/Gary battle where Gary beat him. That episode aired back in 2006...and we're now in 2017. Tracey hasn't appeared in an episode in 11 years...lol.
    Prof. Almeida, OM! and Pikachu315111 like this.
  15. Pikachu315111

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    Actually Tracey appeared in the background of a video of Professor Oak giving a lecture about Starters in the Unova saga, BW116 "The Fires of a Red-Hot Reunion". They also had some flashbacks of him in in the last episode of Unova, BW142 "The Dream Continues" and in the latest movie appearing with all of Ash's other companions.

    Strange they forgot him... no, not really. They're really pushing HARD on the nostalgia and Tracey is generally considered not an interesting character. It's also why Misty & Brock are back in their Gen I clothes for no reason and Misty isn't carrying around Azurill. Also could explain the lack of Ash's Pokemon. Heck, Totodile and Corphish lucky they got a cameo at least to provide a reminder "oh yeah, Ash has been to other regions besides Kanto and Alola".

    Of course, this is nostalgia is the loosest and weakest sense of the word. It's "REMEMBER THIS!" nostalgia instead of anything meaningful. Like my above post may be a cameo palooza, though at least is shows all of Ash's Pokemon and some of their personalities off. Indeed, where is Tracey and Misty's Azurill? They may not be liked but they're part of the show and, hey writers, YOU'RE THE WRITER! WRITE THEM LIKABLE! With how Tracey likes to draw Pokemon and Rotom Dex liking to take pictures of Pokemon, and both being assistant to a Professor of Oak, have them form a heated rivalry about which way is it better to catch Pokemon: with drawing or photography (would be a more interesting rivalry than the Marowak's). If they want to show some develop reveal that Azurill evolved into a Marill and have Misty send it out to swim with her and Lana (or since they're going to Cerulean Gym next episode have it appear there). When Ash is remembering his adventures with Misty & Brock also have a quick image shots of Ash's other companions, maybe also a shot of the group pictures Ash has in his room. While we're at it, since on reason for this trip is about Gym battles have Ash show off his Badge collection, including the Orange Island League Badges, Battle Frontier Symbols, and all the trophies and other memorabilia he has (Misty's lure, his half of the old Poke Ball he and Gary fished up, the Cherish Bells he and Paul won, etc.). How about instead of nostalgia just for season 1 why not nostalgia which has shown all the adventures Ash (and thus the audience who has stuck around since season 1) has gone through and how Ash has grown as a character (heck, be daring and maybe have Ash reflect on how much he also hasn't changed). Good nostalgia should add to the character and compare how they've changed and even improved since then; bad nostalgia just shoves old memories in your face without much thought to why they're doing it accept it was something from the past so its fanservice.

    That all said, they did remember and even improved on Misty and Brock's character. They remembered Brock moved on to being a Pokemon doctor and both can use Mega Pokemon. Also apparently the Japanese commercial puzzle segment mentioned Misty's Sisters and Forrest so they're not forgotten though probably won't be seen. But hey, it's more than what Tracey got.
    Mova likes this.
  16. mertyville

    mertyville

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    Didn't Lillie run away from the Gyarados?
  17. Pikachu315111

    Pikachu315111
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    I'm talking about scenes dedicated to a character or two. That scene more had to do with Misty and Lana, Lillie was just there. But you're right, she did get scared and maybe they could have that go into a scene of her getting scared by other Pokemon (when running you're not really paying attention so it would be easy for her to run into another Pokemon).
  18. precita

    precita

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    Well Misty is getting a bit more to do than her last Pallet town visit at the end of Hoenn. In fact that ep was very similar to this one, with Ash showing off his old pokemon to May and Max, while Misty hung on the sidelines with Tracey and then TR attacked and they blew them up. Only back then they showed ALL of Ash's older pokemon at the time, and Tracey existed. Only difference is back then they were setting up the Battle Frontier arc with May getting her Squirtle from Oak, Ash talking about the Frontier Brains, etc. Then the next episode Misty/Max fall off a cliff together and bond, and then that was the last time Misty appeared in a regular episode bar flashbacks for 12 years till now.

    LOL, I still remember when people thought Misty would appear in the DP series or meet Dawn and she never did. I thought it was especially notable the writers ignored Misty that entire arc, especially since they brought back both May and Gary for a few episodes, and some other old characters like Butch/Cassidy, Brandon of the Pyramid King, the Pokemon Ranger, etc. That was around the time people began to realize the anime was just going to move on with new characters every gen, so once Misty didn't get a cameo in DP I think most realized she was done for good. Of course she was done for a good 12 years given nobody expected to see her again, and the 20th anniversary is really the only reason her and Brock are even getting a cameo.

    Of course back when DP was airing the show still had a bit stronger continuity then it does now. Both AG and DP were billed as direct sequels to the original series....nowadays from BW onward each saga is treated more standalone with some minor references here and there. It's kind of why back then people saw Kanto/Johto, AG and DP as one long continuous series....but now you can't really say it for the anime overall anymore.
    Pikachu315111 likes this.
  19. Karxrida

    Karxrida Sorcerous Prince
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    Haven't seen any of the episodes, but Corphish's cameo makes it clear that ADV probably still happened, and that's the series where Ash nearly became a Frontier Brain.

    So why the actually fuck does Ash need to go to a Pokémon school, again?!?
  20. Pikachu315111

    Pikachu315111
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    Because even with 5 Leagues worth of experience and a super unique Pokemon with power equaling or greater than a Mega Evolution that has an ultimate attack he still lost the Kalos League. :P
  21. precita

    precita

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    Also Misty's Gyarados and Brock's Steelix are from the AG era, not the original series. For some bizarre reason Brock's Onix didn't evolve back in Johto despite Steelix being a new pokemon at the time (but that's Johto for you), and of course Misty didn't get Gyarados till she left the show and returned to her Gym.

    Brock also said he's in training to be a doctor, the goal he left to do at the end of DP. Nothing's been retconned, it's just that Misty/Brock in their Kanto clothes again seems odd.
    Pikachu315111 likes this.
  22. OM!

    OM!

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    Misty didn't lose because she didn't lose Staryu:
    According to Bulbapedia-
    https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP007

    "Ash sends out Butterfree to battle Misty's Staryu. After a quick battle, Butterfree gets knocked into the water, causing him to lose the battle. After that, Misty sends out Starmie and Ash sends out Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto uses Whirlwind on Starmie, but it jumps into the water and attacks Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto uses Gust, causing Starmie to hit the wall. Just as Ash is about to win the battle, Team Rocket interrupts..."

    When it says win or lose, it is referring the round, as technically it says Ash lost the battle when Butterfree got knocked into the water by Staryu, but clearly the actual battle just moves into round 2 with both trainers recalling their Pokémon and moving on to Starmie and Pidgeotto.

    This means Misty has Staryu, Ash has Pidgeotto and we never know who would have won. One could also argue that Ash still had Butterfree since the only thing it suffered was the water, so when he recalled it back he may have been able to use it again now that it wasn't in water. Either way, both of a Trainer's Pokémon have to faint, and that simply did not happen.
    ---
    As for Tododile she lost because Bulbasaur used Solar Beam on her newly evolved Poliwhirl, and won. So Ash totally beat her.

    I wouldn't call Psyduck's victory "not a real battle", if anything it was a tournament, and Ash, being her travel companion since she even had a companion was well aware of Psyduck's weaknesses, and it was his fault for not being smart. Plus, what can a Kingler, etc. do to a Staryu or Starmie that can float in the air and shoot Water Guns, and Bubbles while Kingler is stranded in the water unable to attack back?
    If Psyduck hadn't popped out of its Pokeball, she may have still won without its help.
    ----
    Screw Tracey, the saddest forgotten thing, which we are constantly reminded when ash visits his Pokémon, is that Brock caught a Taurus too! Unfortunately it is never shown in even the Serebii Brock bio, but if you check the pictures or video If that episode it shows Brock caught 1 Tauros while Ash caught 30. And just when you thought the writers forgot about Ash's Seaking from the Seaking fishing contest...

    Why did they not mention brock's if they mention ash's? its like mentioning Latios without mentioning Latias.
    Edit: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Brock_(anime)
    Brock caught it with Ash's Safari ball, but still he walked away with it.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017 at 5:46 AM
  23. Pikachu315111

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    Obviously "Brock's" Tauros is part of Ash's herd of them and maybe decided he doesn't want to split the herd so let it stay with Ash's. If he ever wants it for some reason he could just call Professor Oak and ask for it... if he even know which one it is.
  24. precita

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    You know I just realized this is like the first time in the series Misty/Brock are being portrayed as competent Gym leaders like they are in the games. In the anime they were both de-aged (obviously), and Misty became a rookie of 4 sisters rather than an experienced Gym leader like the games. Misty was shown to be barely above the level of rookie Kanto Ash, as Ash pretty much trashed her two strongest pokemon only 7 eps into the anime without even using Pikachu, and after that Misty just rarely battled or had Psyduck popping out all the time. Brock also quickly gave up being a battler to become a breeder and he barely battled in the show at all.

    Then of course came the Johto fillers where Misty/Brock barely did anything but stand in the background for literally hundreds of eps, so they didn't get to do much there either outside the ocassional episode the writers gave to them.

    Seeing how they're portrayed in the next ep, it really does make you realize what a missed opportunity the anime had to make Misty/Brock look like these consistently strong battlers for Ash to play off and train with. It never happened like that in the show though. Prior to Serena, Misty did the least amount of battling of all the main girls in the series too, so there are hardly any Misty battles to even go back and rewatch in the first place.

    I honestly think Misty getting saddled with both Togepi and Psyduck for the majority of her run stunted all her potential growth as a trainer. She got stuck holding a baby and a duck who constantly got a headache, so the rest of her pokemon barely got to do anything.
    Prof. Almeida likes this.
  25. OM!

    OM!

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    It's actually not "obvious" because it was a banned episode and never mentioned again. Also, the fact that the writers let Brock catch it directly and separately in the first place suggests they specifically wanted him to have it. Eh?
    Bringing up my own point in response to my own point doesn't make you look "clever".
    But Misty didn't lose to Ash, she basically won against Butterfree, he won against Starmie and it was 1-1, like I explained. I agree on the other points, that basically she was Ash's baby sitter, and when that got old she was Psyducks angry mom, and Togepi's loving mother.
    Brock was so irrelevant even in dialogue, at least Misty had lines in arguments with Ash, why did they limit Brock to being as silent as a... well.. Rock

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  1. Mova