1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

General Updates for Existing Uber Analyses

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Fireburn, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    The purpose of this thread is to list the Preexisting analyses that need small updates or changes. We'd rather not have people make entire threads for just one or two fixes so we'd like to ask that they'd be recorded here. Please post in this thread if you have anymore changes to suggest or would like to discuss the proposed fixes. If you've tested any of the questionable sets please post your results/LOGS in this thread.

    PM ME, BOJANGLES, JIBAKU, GREAT SAGE, OR THEORYMON BEFORE MAKING A NEW THREAD.
    _______________________________


    Arceus
    -This is being worked on by the community.

    Deoxys
    -No changes needed.

    Deoxys-A
    -Needs an update ~Iconic

    Deoxys-D

    -This analysis is outdated and needs a revamp ~firecape

    Deoxys-S
    -Theorymon is going to get this done. Eventually.

    Dialga
    -Colonel_M is working on this.

    Garchomp
    -Needs to be updated with format changes.
    -Toxic needs to be deslashed on Scarf set.

    Groudon
    -Needs format changes ~Iconic
    -SubSalac Set needs to be retested. ~Iconic
    -Support/Paradancer/CB suffer from Speed Creep. ~Iconic

    Giratina
    -No changes needed.

    Giratina-O
    -Format Changes needed. ~shrang
    -Needs to be concised a lot. ~shrang
    -Sleeping Beauty set has Speed Creep. ~shrang

    Ho-Oh

    -Toxic Stall set could stand to be retested.
    -Speed creep on first set. ~Rising_Dusk

    Kyogre
    -Needs format updates. ~Rising_Dusk
    -I think a defensive/support set should be added. I'd like to hear opinions on this. ~Rising_Dusk
    -Defensive sets have Speed Creep (also no one runs Max Speed Adamant Tar) ~Rising_Dusk

    Latias
    -Needs format changes.
    -A Dual Screen set should be tested. Something like Reflect/LS/Healing Wish/Dragon Pulse @ Light Clay or something.
    -Wish Support set has some slashitis.

    Latios
    -This is good.

    Lugia
    -Trick set needs to be retested

    Manaphy
    -Defensive set needs retesting.

    Mew
    -Transform and Double Status sets could use retesting.
    -Needs format changes.

    Mewtwo
    -This is good.

    Palkia
    -Retest SubSalac ~calze6

    Rayquaza
    -Mixquaza should probably become the first set. ~General consensus that no change required

    Salamence
    -
    "Salamence's Quirks in Ubers" can probably be removed as that info is covered in the set comments. ~firecape

    Shaymin-S

    -This needs to be concised. A lot. ~capefeather
  2. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    I think that fire blast would be an option on garchomp as it takes down chomp's most threatening counters i.e. scizor and forretress.
  3. tripe

    tripe

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    672
    What exactly can Forretress do to Garchomp? Forry is merely set up bait for almost anything not weak to Payback. Scizor is actually more specially bulky than physically in ubers, due to that 252 SpD investment for the standard CB Scizor. Remember that Garchomp has piss poor SpA due to jolly and that 80 base SpA. SD sets can walk all over Forretress, and scarf sets shouldn't lock themselves into outrage anyways.
  4. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Forretress can set up toxic spikes and spikes before Garchomp comes in. Groudon only needs 36 evs nowadays just to outspeed Ho-oh, so the Paradancer set shouldn't run 88 evs in speed. Deoxys-D should invest enough defense to avoid a 2hko from Rock polish Groudon
  5. tripe

    tripe

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    672
    The ability to set up spikes is more of a team support option, rather than a direct counter. A direct counter is something that can actually hurt directly. Scizor is a more of a direct counter, due to bullet punch. Forretress is mostly set up fodder, barring the extremely rare explosion. The Ho-Oh spread should be changed to outpace Jolly Tyranitar anyways, because no one in their right minds would run max speed adamant. Either support Groudon will outspeed with no speed, or trail behind.
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Well , I didnt say Forretress counters Garchomp. It cant. Payback will do laughable damage to Garchomp but the spikes it set up will greatly hinder Garchomp coming in repeatly. Groudon and Lugia always accompany Forretress though. Both can counter Garchomp rather well. Jolly Tyranitar without scarf is rare in Ubers. Most are usually specially bulky or scarf to take on Lati@s or use more bulk for dealing with Aura Sphere Mewtwo. Mew shouldn't exactly use double status as Giratina who is way bulkier can do the same with thunder wave and will-o-wisp to cripple his common switch-ins such as Darkrai.
  7. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    Does anyone here like getting toxic spikes + spikes getting set up on their side of the field? Fire blast will probs or nearly OHKO both which no other move can do.
  8. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    No one likes the annoying and dangerous spikes. I agree with calze about the fire blasts too. As it easily 2hkoes both Scizor and Forretress at worst. While Choice band Earthquake will hurt both, Fire blasts still does more to Forretress especially in the sun.
  9. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,464
    Fire Blast should OC at best, IMO. If you're using a ScarfChomp, you should be weary of Forretress and Scizor switching in anyway. If it's raining (Which is very common), you might as well use Earthquake. There's also the issue of should you change your nature just so you can use the move, cutting into Garchomp's decent bulk.

    EDIT: Can we actually get a Garchomp update going so we can actually bicker over there?? Thanks.
  10. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Earthquake does 34.5% - 40.7% to standard Uber Forretress while Fire blasts does 36.2% - 42.9% in the rain even when using a Jolly nature. So, Fire blasts can still be an option and in the sun it OHkoes Forretress, removing this annoying shell can be the key to win stall.
  11. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,392
    Okay time to settle this.

    There is no reason to use Fire Blast. You don't really want to cut into Garchomp's excellent bulk (it has better defenses than Swampert!) as that hinder the ability to set up. In addition, FIre Blast doesn't even OHKO Forretress unless sunlight is up. Scizor and Forry both aren't going to like switching into STAB EQs and neither of them can touch Chomp. (Scizor's Bullet Punch doesn't do THAT much, Forry has to Explode.)

    If you're THAT concerned about killing Forretress just use Fire Fang. You don't need to switch natures and it still 2HKOes the standard Ubers Forretress in neutral weather, 3HKOes Forry after SR, and OHKOes Forry after SR in sunlight, all without a boost. Fire Blast isn't that much stronger than Fire Fang due to Garchomp's mediocre Special Attack.

    All Garchomp needs is format changes and a move deslashed. That's not enough stuff to change to make a whole thread.
  12. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    I'd like to try my hand in concising Shaymin-S.
  13. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Wait jolly Garchomp Fire blasts still does more to Forretress than Earthquake can even in the rain. With jolly ,Garchomp doesn't need to reduce his decent defenses. I am not saying it is a good choice but it can work sometimes and it does more to Skarmory that sometimes appear. Scizor can sometimes survive boosted Earthquake though. A defensive Kyogre set should definitely be added as it is one of the best Kyogre sets to counter some Groudons and Rayquazas, especially for rain-based teams.
  14. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,572
    Whilst I am doing it, I won't be finishing it for a while due to time constraints IRL (and I haven't done so for a long time). If you do want to finish concising it, start from here instead of starting from scratch: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67389 Consider this passing my reservation to you.

    It could also do with some updating, seeing as Ubers has changed a lot since this was last updated. Popularity of certain sets has changed, Gira-O has Shadow Sneak etc.
  15. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    I also asked for a reservation of shaymin-s.
  16. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,572
    Just read this now:
    Show Hide


    Yeah, you already have official permission to go ahead with this, before capefeather asked for it.
  17. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    So I can take over or are you still doing it?
  18. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,464
    Alright, since I'm done with Giratina-O (Only needs QC approvals and GP checking), I'd like to just run a quick format update on Garchomp.
  19. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    I've got this (already posted and passed through QC).
    Shrang has got this as well I think, he PMed me in regards to one of the sets anyways. (If I'm wrong please post/PM to correct me shrang)
    Rising_Dusk has this
    calze6 has posted this, and while it doesn't need a full revamp, may as well discuss it in that thread.
    Capefeather has this.

    -------------

    Stuff that needs to be done still:

    Ho-Oh
    -ToxicStall set could stand to be retested.
    -Speed creep on first set.

    Latias
    -Needs format changes.
    -A Dual Screen set should be tested. Something like Reflect/LS/Healing Wish/Dragon Pulse @ Light Clay or something.
    -Wish Support set has some slashitis.

    Mew
    -Transform and Double Status sets could use retesting.
    -Needs format changes.

    Lugia
    -Trick set needs to be retested

    Manaphy
    -Defensive set needs retesting.

    Rayquaza
    -Mixquaza should probably become the first set.


    It was determined on IRC "it doesn't really matter". The usage stats are so close, and the change so insignificant, why bother?

    Salamence
    -"Salamence's Quirks in Ubers" can probably be removed as that info is covered in the set comments.

    No one has posted any opinions on this, if you are against it I would suggest you post.

    Wobbuffet
    -Custap Berry slash/set/mention once SB2 is finalized. (DON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS YET)

    Attn:Shoddy Battle 2 is now out, and it has Custap Berry correctly implemented. This means that somebody can write this, but remember, ask before posting it. (we're not exactly sure if it's going to get a full set yet...)
  20. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,806
    Updated the OP with firecape's adjustments.
  21. calze6

    calze6

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    552
    I could swear that I reserved concising shaymin-s first. Will I be still doing it?
  22. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,806
    Yes, it appears that you did reserve it first, however you already have Uber Jirachi in the QC stages. Because we are unfamiliar with your work, we're not going to let you double reserve stuff, so Shaymin-S will go to capefeather. In the future when you've done more work and we readily recognize your work's quality, you can reserve multiple things at once. Sorry for any confusion!
  23. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    Somehow I'd completely forgotten that I'd reserved Shaymin-S O_O Will get to it as soon as I can.
  24. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    ~ Wish
    ~ Protect / Recover
    ~ Dragon Pulse
    ~ Toxic / Grass Knot / Thunder / Calm Mind

    Is the current moveset for Wish Latias, for reference.
    I'm thinking of a deslashing on Calm Mind and Toxic, but I'm honestly not sure as I don't have much experience with it.

    I also deslashed Roost on Latias's Calm Mind set, as there is no reason for both to have a slash as they are identical with no bonuses for one over the other. (Ps: Roost DOES NOT negate Levitate)
  25. Vergil624

    Vergil624

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Giratina-O (Mixed Attacker) recommendation

    I've been wondering, if HP Fire is quite difficult to come across, (without the means of RNG and/or various other mechanics) wouldn't Earth Power/Aura Sphere be able to cover the usual Steel-type stall/wall/tank's? I mean, considering that there are barely any number Steel/Bug Ubers, Scizor and Forretress, avaliable. And they both can be taken down by Earth Power and even Aura Sphere. OHKO, if not, 2HKO. (Yes, I've considered the fact that they are physically bulk.)

    AS and EP provides great coverages too.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)