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Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Monte Cristo, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Alright, I'll bite. *blows dust off DPP knowledge*

    Gyarados: Definitely A Rank. It doesn't have a ton of versatility when it comes to the sets it can run. Bulky/Offensive Dragon Dance, Rest + Sleep Talk, Choice Band are the most common and you can usually narrow down what type of set Gyarados might be based on the other members of the opposing team (you can do this for other pokés too, though). But, the Dragon Dance sets that run Taunt are so dangerous for their ability to just flat out sweep the entire metagame at +2 and most of it even at +1. Once Rotom-A and/or their scarfer is gone (sometimes just Rotom-A), Gyarados runs through any stall team.

    Dragonite: If this thing isn't S Rank, it is DEFINITELY A Rank. This is just due to sheer unpredictability. There isn't a whole lot in the metagame that can safely come into Dragonite initially. It could be Dragon Dance(Bulky or Offensive), Mixed, Choice Band or even DD + Heal Bell or Agility. The Mixed Dragonite is arguably the most dangerous. The only safe switch is something absurdly bulky on both ends, like Suicune or Specially Defensive Hippowdon. Having reliable recovery in Roost only makes the problem that is Dragonite even bigger; mitigating it's Stealth Rock weakness and becoming a more effective stallbreaker.

    Gliscor: A solid B Rank pick, IMO. Offensively, it has trouble sweeping the metagame with it's Swords Dance variants, but where it really shines is in support. The "Britscor" set is a very popular pick on both offense and stall as a solid stallbreaker. Gliscor has the right amount of speed to outrun all the common walls that stall teams employ to prevent things like status, healing, and hazards with Taunt and has the right amount of physical bulk to switch into things like Close Combat. It's typing is amazing, giving it Electric and Ground immunity as well as being immune to (Toxic)Spikes. Roost allows Gliscor to stick around all game, especially with a lack of SR weakness. Earthquake is standard STAB and U-turn allows even stall teams to maintain momentum. Toxic still gets use to cripple the many Water-types that come in to force Gliscor out. Gliscor is also a solid Baton Passer fwiw. And, no matter what set you use, Sand Veil is the most annoying thing ever for anyone facing Gliscor in the sand since, unlike Gen 5, Sand Veil is not banned.

    I question Infernape as an A Rank threat a little bit. I just have trouble seeing Infernape as just as much of a threat as Starmie, who is faster, has a better typing, is just as much if not even more of a threat when holding Life Orb, and has a bit more utility. With Tyranitar and Hippowdon being S Rank threats(which I whole-heartedly agree with), sandstorm is a common condition. Infernape with Life Orb, the most dangerous set IMO, is worn down very quickly and Waters like Starmie, Gyarados and Tentacruel are solid answers to it. Even Vaporeon can check it. Infernape requires prediction to do real damage to a team on it's own. It is definitely a solid B Rank pick (and probably at the top of the list as far as B Rank goes). I just have trouble justifying the standard Infernape as A Rank.
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  2. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    I definitely agree with this post, the main thing is, sand stall and sand offense are where gliscor shines the brightest , due to it's annoyance with sand veil, support that it provides to sand teams and reliable recovery, it's really a bitch to face in sand, here's a match I had with The Reptile last night:
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen4oubeta-53565702

    this match really shows the annoyance that gliscor can be on teams like sand stall (I really was using quite the odd team, I didn't even have swampy, and that's my main man for sand stall) I lost, but mainly because Rep made a lot better plays and I had no SR on my team which was kinda stupid since I missed the kill on rachi by 8%.

    Other than that I 100% agree with this post, but I'll wait if anybody else has some words (will def add gyara for now)
  3. Vileman

    Vileman

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    Ill give it a try to add something to this list:
    Aerodactyl should be added to the list, and its B rank imo. It works well as a suicide lead due to his speed, and has a punch with stonequake. The fact that it has taunt also means that nothing is setting up on him, and can easily set up rocks.
    Suicune should also be added, he could run various sets like the common crocune, the purely offensive calm mind or a defensive set. His lack of reliable recovery and not so good movepool kinda holds him back tho, so i would give to it B rank.
    Machamp might as well be added, it is annoying to face due to his power and bulk, it was a great anti-lead poke with a good coverage and dynamicpunch itself was annoying due to the confusion it provided. A or B rank
    Zapdos was a good pokemon in the meta,could run different sets like the subroost toxic stall, a defensive set with roar and twave, an offensive set, it could even run scarf or specs to good use with his somewhat good movepool of tbolt, heat wave, hidden power and u-turn. His biggest problem was being useless against blissey, a common special wall who could wall it to death and didnt cared about toxic due to natural cure. I see it in B rank.
    Weavile is a poke that was kind of mediocre in this metagame; it had plenty of pokes that gave him trouble running around (most notably scizor and skarmory) and the dragons that he used to counter, are gone to ubers (latias, salamence, chomp a lot of time ago) so its not that good. possibly C rank.
    I hope this are someone accurrate views of the pokes, and i'd like to see more comments on this :]
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  4. BKC

    BKC
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    As much as I love Hippowdon, I wouldn't say it's S rank. It is an amazing wall, but there are certain teams it can't stand up to very well, and there are just a lot of attackers that give it trouble on its own (namely Breloom and Suicune). A is fine for it.

    I would move Starmie up to S, it is an absolute terror offensively as well as being amazing glue with the defensive set, since it checks a lot of shit and rapid spin is huge.

    Zapdos is also S rank in my opinion, it has amazing utility and can run a lot of sets that are all really good; 3 atks + roost, specs, subroost, agility, phys/spdef... hell, it can even baton pass shit.

    Infernape seems fine in A to me. Sure it's revenged easily but it's got a lot of power, still has a nice speed tier, can run a good variety of sets, and rips a lot of teams apart.

    I would say Celebi and Scizor are B rank, they certainly are good but I don't think they're up there with the other dudes in A rank.

    Since there are a lot of pkmn missing in general, I think these lists are a good place to start, and people can discuss from there.
    A rank pkmn (open)
    Breloom
    Gengar
    Suicune
    Lucario
    Shaymin
    Jolteon
    Kingdra
    Dragonite
    Blissey
    Metagross

    B rank pkmn (open)
    Gliscor
    Togekiss
    Bronzong
    Aerodactyl
    Machamp
    Empoleon
    Abomasnow
    Milotic
    Venusaur
    Mamoswine
    Snorlax
    Roserade
    Vaporeon
    Raikou
    Weavile
    Crobat
    Nidoqueen

    C rank pkmn (open)
    Spiritomb
    Magnezone
    Dugtrio
    Honchkrow
    Tentacruel
    Yanmega
    Froslass
    Cradily
    Gallade
    Heracross
    Staraptor
    Hitmontop
    Uxie
    Hariyama
    Moltres
    Lanturn
    Rhyperior
    Torterra

    D rank pkmn (open)
    Dusknoir
    Electivire
    Cresselia
    Porygon-Z
    Ninjask
    Umbreon
    Ambipom
    Smeargle


    Thanks for making this thread, hope some good discussion comes out of it :toast:
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
    Asuya, Deluks917, Magcargo and 5 others like this.
  5. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
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    I think that bkc's list is pretty good, starmie is pretty much the definition of an s rank in dpp.

    also, I think dragonite should be s as it's ridiculously dangerous, especially the mixed set. there's very little defensive teams can do to wall it, and it gets cool options like dd and choice band too. it's good against all playstyles

    I really think hippowdon is far from s rank as sand stream is much less big of a thing than it is in bw. there's nothing to abuse really and since tyranitar is everywhere sand is gonna be there very often. It's a pretty good wall but it's not really a huge metagame threat
  6. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    BKC makes a good point about Hippowdon. Hippowdon's biggest issue is against other stall teams as it's setup bait for Skarmory and even Forretress (especially if Hippowdon is burned). I still think it is definitely A rank though. The Specially Defensive set's ability to shut down offensive teams can't be ignored. As I said above, it's one of the few pokes that switches into MixNite safely. The more traditional Physically Defensive set isn't OHKO'd by Close Combat from +2 Lucario, arguably the most dangerous sweeper in DPP OU.

    Moving Starmie to S Rank solves my beef with Infernape having the same ranking as it. Starmie has the advantage of being a spinner as well (to be fair, both have access to reliable recovery). Everything else is fine, but I think you can make a case for Celebi being A Rank. When you think about it, Celebi is a LOT like Jirachi: it is extremely versatile, moreso than Shaymin IMO, but with a worse typing. Shaymin is A Rank as well, but for other reasons. Celebi is most known for it's role as a defensive mon, but it's also a great pivot, a good Scarfer (Jirachi and Shaymin are better, though), and a great setup sweeper. CM and NP are niches for Celebi as an OU Grass type, but they do end up sweeping a good portion of the metagame if allowed to set up. Instant recovery helps this as well. If Blissey doesn't have Toxic, like you find on some more balanced teams, she's not winning vs. CM/NP Celebi.

    Since we are including lower tiered mons that are viable in OU (or at least we should IMO), I'll add something else to the list:

    Quagsire: C Rank all the way. Biggest reason why is because Quagsire fits right in with all the other C Rankers on BKC's list that I deem a "metagame call": the ones that fulfill a specific niche. Quagsire's is the ability to shut down all common offensive Water types through it's Water/Ground typing and Water Absorb. Starmie and Offensive Suicune can't do anything to it as everything is a 3HKO at best. All mono-attacking Waters can't KO it either, though they can Toxic or Roar (e.g.: Vaporeon, Gyarados). Setup sweepers have to be very careful since they can get locked into their boosting move via Encore. It can even take on Metagross if needed, but shouldn't be your first answer if you have a better one. Quagsire's biggest issue is stall teams. Things like Gliscor, Skarmory and Forretress absolutely laugh at it as Quag is just setup bait for hazards or Taunt. Grass types also laugh at the standard OU set, but they can catch a Toxic (except Breloom :] ).
  7. BKC

    BKC
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    If Celebi's physically defensive leech seed set was still as good as it was before offensive Suicune was popular, I'd probably agree that it deserves A rank. Now, though, I'm not sure, since its walling capabilities have been greatly diminished (Infernape/Zapdos more common without Latias around, the aforementioned offensive Cune, the newly popular CB Flygon). It's a decent sweeper, but the weaknesses to pursuit / especially u-turn really hold it back. Shaymin's lack of a pursuit weak and only a 2x u-turn weak, which can usually be shrugged off with relative ease, are what I think it makes it usually better, as well as seed flare, although it does lose out on that sweet fighting resist. Celebi can certainly do cool stuff with its movepool such as baton passing its boosts but that's way easier said than done. It can twave shit too although with all the cb flygons running around that's not always the safest move. It can psong last pkmn setup sweepers, which plague most common stall teams if played well, but, again, its defensive sets just have a hard time keeping up against a lot of teams. I think nowadays Cele functions best as this sort of bulky attacker with leaf storm/hp fire/u-turn/recover. Definitely a good pkmn, just not as consistently effective as Shaymin in my opinion.

    I agree on Quagsire, it's decent.
  8. Vileman

    Vileman

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    Well, altho my ranking werent as good as BKC's at least it gave to this threat life :] gj on the list and posts BKC and jackiechuun!
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  9. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Wow, did not expect this much discussion this early and so fast too, thanks so much guys, sorry I wasn't here for a while but work takes time and stuff lol , now onto things and replies n' such:
    I highly agree with this post, except for the second to last one, Dos was honestly one of the most dangerous pokemon to face in gen IV/4, because it's LO roost sets and choice specs sets just hit so hard and could pressure all archetypes due to their power combined with zapdos's relatively good bulk, healing in the form of roost and typing making it enabled to handle many revenge killers alike while still being able to offensively mess with them, I really do miss the ebelt/LO RD set that would always catch people off guard, man that thing's thunder hit like a truck. the scarf sets and the agility sets were a true roadblock for offense because it could just score vital KOs and not be KOd back by much, letting agilidos set up and scarf does revenge properly, though the rpesance of ttar, blissey and SR does hurt it, zapdos is still a very good pokemon in todays metagame of DPPt, between A and S imo.
    other than that, these changes will be added soon, though I'd like to see some more food for thought on weavile, as it was one of the best checks to flygon, zapdos and dnite.

    Thanks for this post bkc, glad to see more dppt players contributing to this :toast:

    I really cannot argue with this at all, this is just a really fucking good post mate, changes will be up after this post, nice job.

    also: blaziken should be C or B imo, just because it causes so much problems for stall due to it's high power and dangerous SD set, while offense trips up while handeling the agillity set, though agiliblaze struggles with finding a good fighting STAB due to superpowers attack drop not being able to be restored to +0 or +1 due to no SD and low kick varying so much depending on the pokemon, still whacks the fuck out of heatran and ttar tho. saying this because I saw that mega blaziken avatar of yours rofl

    yeah, not much to say here other than I agree lol, the main thing with nite is dealing with stupid random HP ices making it annoying to pivot into some things you thought you could deal with, that and ttar is a huge dick, still S worthy tho, just more food 4 thought.

    srsly people make posts that I can at least debate, these posts are too good :C, Quag is def C yeah, S star has been said as a S and yeah hippo is moving down, poor guy didn't have a long stay up there in S,



    Anyway, that about wraps it up for this reply to the current rank change proposals, now I'm going go update the OP and the log of rank changes, this has been fun, lets keep this goin guys

    ~~ Oia [​IMG]
  10. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    BKC : you have spoken :P. Weaknesses against common attacking types that powerful Scarfers carry(Pursuit, U-turn) don't help it's cause either. Also, any fast U-turner can force Celebi out.

    On Weavile: It's stronger and faster than almost all of DPP OU, but Weavile's biggest issue is it's typing. It really comes into play against any team that uses hazards. LO Weavile dies even faster than LO Infernape thanks to the SR weak and has no recovery whatsoever. It's dangerous if it can get a SD, but things like Gyarados, Skarmory, and any Mach Puncher outside of Breloom (read: Infernape, hell even Hitmontop) put a stop to it. It's C Rank and no better, IMO.
  11. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx

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    For S Rank, I would have Starmie, Tyranitar + 3 of Heatran, Rotom-H, Zapdos and Jirachi.

    LO Starmie Hydro pump is ridiculous, far and away the best spinner in the tier.
    Tyranitar, especially the scarf variant is a great answer to many threats who are generally a major pain in the ass like Starmie, Gengar, Adamant DD Dragonite/Gyrados and sometimes Celebi and Zapdos.

    Not too sure about the others, I always thought Dragonite was behind Flygon as the number 1 Dragon.
  12. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    lol Starmie at both A and S.
  13. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    Does anyone else seriously not see the problem with Jolteon being A-rank while Scizor being B-rank?

    I mean honestly it's cool and all if you think Scizor is overrated and overused or some shit but c'mon Scizor is still amazing.

    edit: Zapdos for S-rank is also laughable

    lol.
  14. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Yeah I'm no DP whiz and I personally don't like using it when I do try DPP, but it seems weird that the Pokemon that was once #1 in overall usage in the ol' Latias/Mence days, the one thing Smogon ninjas were breaking into people's houses to force them to use, is now B rank in a viability ranking list.
  15. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    LOL SO MUCH FOR EDITING AT LIKE 10:30 PM
  16. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
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    Scizor is not B rank. Come on, Scizor is pretty incredible. The Banded set scouts for physical walls really nicely, while the Swords Dance set is a pretty great sweeper. Scizor is the one of the main reasons why Heatran, Rotom-H, and Zapdos are S rank (because they counter Scizor nicely).

    I dunno if I like the idea of Zapdos and Hippowdon being S rank. Zapdos is SR weak and is countered pretty nicely by Heatran, Hippowdon, Rotom-H, and Tyranitar. It just seems like it can't switch into as many threats as it likes, mainly because of the SR weakness ruining it's good bulk. Hippowdon is amazing no doubt, but S rank? Eh, I don't really see it. It provides SR for the team and phazes, while countering some of the top physical sweepers. However, it's pretty easily forced out by special sweepers like Starmie and Suicune, and it just isn't a Pokemon that seems S rank to me.

    Milotic should be C rank. It's severely outclassed by Vaporeon, and there's little reason to use it when there's Suicune, Vaporeon, and Starmie.

    Magnezone should be B rank. Being able to trap Skarmory, Forretress, Jirachi, and Scizor is a huge niche, as it easily opens up holes for a physical sweeper. It can also potentially get past Blissey with Explosion, and has really nice typing.

    By the way, who decides this list?
  17. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Rotom-H isn't a thing, It's just overheat rotom-a dude lol, sorry for pestering you about that, it happens to me too.

    Scizor's checks are all amazing pokemon in this meta, heatran, rotom-a, zapdos and gyara and more, while it does get roadblock by some really good pokemon, and the metagame is pretty adapt to dealing with it, I could see myself moving it to A rank after this post.

    Zapdos is versatile and is a blanket switch in into many special attackers (like the aforementioned rotom-a as long as you avoid trick iirc) with it's sdef set, can offensively pressure much teams and in general is a fucking threat, but I could see it moving down because it has problems switching into some of the most well known physical attackers like ttar and CB gon, rotom-a exists as the premier electric type and rotom-a is well, rotom-a, and it struggles to find free turns to roost in most scenarios that and it's blissey fodder.

    Hippo was meant to be moved down, but I forgot last night, thanks for reminding me though lol

    Milotic will be added yeah, never really remembered it even existing in OU till this moment, good nomination


    Magnezone is possibly a B, the main thing is that the metagame is very well adapt to it, things like shed shell forre have "spiked up" in viability just to avoid the trap from magne making magne be iffy as a steel trapper, but it still has a very big shot at B, since it can remove things like non shed shell skarm, forre and scizor (rachi runs uturn and sdef sets avoid the 2HKO from HP fire)

    Also, the person who decides this like is just like "the person who decides the BW Viability Rankings", because well, it's more of a community decision than anything, hence why I am being so lenient on accept proposals for rank changes.

    THough I'd really like to see more talk on these except for A rank Zapdos and Scizor, those will be added soon enough

    ~~ [​IMG]
  18. BKC

    BKC
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    Jolteon is great, it's dangerous as hell to switch into for offensive/balance teams, and can do other shit like Wish and SubPass. I haven't used Fake Tears but it's probably pretty good against defensive teams especially because it's faster than Scarftar and the occasional Dugtrio. I was probably too hard on Scizor though.
    Not having to use two moveslots for recovery is pretty big. It's not nearly so outclassed that it should be in C.

    Yeah, I suppose.

    damn guess that settles it
  19. ShootingStarmie

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    I just really don't see much reason to use it in OU when you have Starmie, Vappy, Suicune, etc. What does it bring to OU that these Pokemon can't do better?
  20. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Gargantuate special defense, reliable recovery (starmies the only one to have that, vappy has to waste a turn and a moveslot to make wish "reliable"), and not bad offensive presence tbh, still has enough niche altogether to pull off B rank, not sure though, haven't used it much recently, so there will need to be more input on this before a change is made
  21. PDC

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    Milotic brings reliable Recovery, pretty great bulk, a rather unique ability which can be very clutch, and overall just being useful. Not much to say, but Milotic is probably one of the best bulky water checks to things like MixNite / Flygon out there.
  22. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Magnezone is fine where it's at. It's largely useless if your opponent doesn't have a steel type that Magnezone can safely trap, which happens a bit more often in DPP OU. It's too slow. It doesn't always OHKO Careful Skarmory with Thunderbolt if it's Timid. It needs HP Fire to guarantee the OHKO on Careful Forretress. It can't really trap Heatran or Lucario. Scizor and Jirachi can beat it with prediction using Superpower and Fire Punch respectively. Starmie STILL outspeeds a Choice Scarf Magnezone....yeah, I think it's fine where it's at. It fits the description of a C Rank Pokemon.

    Zapdos is S-Rank because of it's versatility alone. It destroys common FWG cores. It has Roost to mitigate the SR weak. SubRoost is still amazing. Agility LO Dos sweeps most of the metagame. Choice Specs hits extremely hard; SpD Heatran gets 2HKO'd with enough prior damage. Defensive sets are almost a no-brainer switch-in for the once beloved Scizor as well as Grass types and any defensive Water. Hippowdon isn't totally safe due to Toxic unless it's backed by a cleric (it isn't always).

    I don't think we were that harsh on Scizor lol. Maybe if it was 2010 again, I woulda said otherwise, but Scizor hasn't been number #1 for a LONG time. CB is pretty underwhelming IMO. You can find enough stuff in OU that can switch in on it (like defensive Zapdos). A good amount of the current A Rank pokes have some way of beating it or they just straight up wall it. SD is honestly it's best set now and is (or should be) the only reason there is any case for Scizor being an A Rank poke, but again, there are too many A/S Rank pokes that either wall it and phaze it out or can take a resisted Bullet Punch and hit it back hard or OHKO it. It doesn't sweep a significant portion of the meta from what I'm seeing.
  23. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    Jolteon is essentially the definition of a B-tier Pokemon. It has its niche, which is its insane speed which allows it to do stuff like check Gyarados and ensure it gets hits off, but that niche doesn't overcome the fact that it had pitiful bulk and doesn't have enough power to offset that bulk. A Pokemon like Infernape can be A-tier despite its bulk because it has the power to sweep teams with amazing coverage and unpredictability. On the other hand, Jolteon has fairly poor coverage and isn't an overwhelming Pokemon to handle. Not to mention the fact that the Specs set becomes something of a liability once you face anyone with a Hippodown or Blissey, and the Expert Belt set is weaker than Eo's dick. It can do other shit like Wish and SubPass?? Umm ok, but more likely than not it's not going to be running Wish because honestly it doesn't have the time for Wish. SubPass is a pretty decent set, but again, not A-tier material.

    Having Roost to mitigate a SR weakness does not mean the SR weakness isn't there. Zapdos is a very good Pokemon, but once again, not S-tier. I'm comparing this list to the BW OU viability list and a major concern is that this list seems too willing to rank anything good as S-rank. If the BW list was using the same criteria as this list Latias would be S-rank in that one. "Latias is S-Rank because of it's versatility. It destroys the sun and rain. LO attacker is a force and CM Sub can sweep. It can also support its team with Wish, etc etc." Let's be real here, Choice Specs Zapdos is only used as a lead, and I think the metagame has adjusted for it to the point where it isn't as strong as it once was, like what happened to lead Machamp. Agility LO Zapdos is good, but I wouldn't exactly say it sweeps a majority of the metagame considering the fact that Tyranitar hard stops it, while Rotom and Heatran beat it with SR + LO recoil. Agility Zapdos doesn't have the same payoff that other SR weak Pokemon like Salamence or Dragonite did to make it worth while 90% of the time (which is what I think a S-rank Pokemon should do.) SubRoost Zapdos takes some of the most team support in the game which is does not describe a S-rank Pokemon.

    I don't know where to get usage stats, but I'm pretty sure Scizor is still top 5 because you're making it out to be like it fell off the face of the planet. CB Scizor will never be underwhelming as long as it has Bullet Punch and U-turn because of how useful the moves are. Even if you do find enough stuff to switch into it (which you don't), it just uses U-turn which stacks up a ton of damage. Not to mention the fact that high-powered priority is always useful, and the fact that Scizor has such a great typing also adds to that. It is also very good at Pursuit trapping stuff life Gengar and Starmie. If you can honestly justify Jolteon being a higher rank than Scizor then I straight up just question your way of thinking.
  24. BKC

    BKC
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    Nah I don't like specs. I think life orb is better 99% of the time, but I think we disagree on how threatening it is, I find it to be absolutely terrifying against some teams and that's partly what makes me think it's worthy of A rank. It actually makes very good use of wish / subpass, but I digress. I think it's good enough for A however I suppose it wouldn't kill anyone to drop it to B.

    The max satk tbolt / heat wave / hp ice / roost @ lefties set is the best one right now imo, it's what really pushes it up there for me.

    I know this has nothing to do with how good scizor is but if I had to guess the most common pkmn right now, the top 5 would probably be heatran / ttar / jirachi / starmie / rotom. Anyways there was a point where bulky sd sciz was really good at sweeping shit but it isn't as efficient anymore, I think scarf is probably its best set atm and while it's killer at times it just completely falters against some teams. CB isn't bad I guess but I just don't like it too much. It's a toss up for me, I think sciz is B material but wouldn't mind it in A too much.
  25. Mulligan

    Mulligan

    Joined:
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    I wouldn't exactly say Heatran and Rotom-A beat it since any LO Zapdos worth it's salt should carry Roost whether they have Agility or not. If anything, SpD Heatran is at a stalemate unless it Roars and straight up loses if Zapdos is the last mon. Rotom-A eventually loses 1 on 1 whether by damage or Pressure unless it's ResTalk. Mence shouldn't even be mentioned considering it's banned, but that's a nitpick as you were just making a point. SubRoost Zapdos works "better" with support, but it doesn't exactly demand it IMO.

    Everything being said, though, I wouldn't actually be mad if Zapdos drops to A Rank. As good as it is, it's still one-dimensional when you talk about it offensively. It will never beat Blissey, Tyranitar, or even Snorlax.


    CB Scizor has always been a swiss army knife. It's a good utility Pokemon and a good pivot. CB U-turn really isn't doing that much though when the switch-in is any of Skarmory, Gyarados, Heatran(requires prediction on Scizor's end), Zapdos, Gliscor, or bulky Rotom-A. Hell even bulky Crobat, Nidoqueen, and Moltres switch into it pretty convincingly. And often times I find CB Scizor users can't abuse the momentum they get off of U-turn to take advantage of those switch-ins I mentioned. At best, they force me out for 1 turn. As far as trapping Gengar and Starmie, CB Scizor doesn't even do this well. Gengar will just Sub or force Scizor to Bullet Punch, which just turns Scizor into setup fodder after the KO. LO Starmie actually OHKOs Scizor with Hydro Pump if it happened to come in once before and took SR damage. You do trap and KO the standard spinner if they decide to switch, but they probably know that, so you'll end up taking some Surfs/Hydro Pumps before you KO them at best. Bullet Punch is it's safest move overall and it just leaves Scizor open to too many setup opportunities unless it's really late in the game. I still think SD is it's best set, but for everything Agility Zapdos can't sweep through, there are just as many things that SD Scizor can't ever hope to beat. I even think Scarf Scizor is better, but that is debatable because of less power. CB Scizor is just...too slow :/ .

    If we want to keep Scizor at A Rank, that's fine I guess. I just think it's terrible as an A Rank Pokemon overall.

    I will say this about Jolteon, though. I used to think the same thing about Wish Jolteon, that "it doesn't have time to Wish". Then I tried it. People really need to try out Wish Jolteon. It's a lot better than people give it credit for. Running Sub or Protect with it just creates more mindgames for your opponent.
    Monte Cristo likes this.
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