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Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Monte Cristo, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Ok guys, sorry for the death of this project. I admit watching for XY news & stuff pretty much killed any motivation to do any past gen stuff for a while., but Iam back into it, and once people are ready to start arguing, I'll start revamping most of the list and adding + and some -s ranks, I might also add a UU sub-section to the viability rankings cause les be honest, who doesn't love DPPt UU? so here's what I need/want so far:

    [​IMG] Venusaur for B/A- rank(OU) [​IMG]
    So, this may sound weird. First of all, many players consider this thing as an inferior roserade or celebi-it's not. This thing's acess to sleep + leaf storm at the same time, more bulk, usable atk and access to a movepool full of moves like earthquake and power whip make it actually quite good and unique. It's 80/83/100 bulk and an almost unique rass/Poison Type are great, making it so that it's bulk higher than roserade on both spectrums(roserade has like 20 less HP and defense separately jesus that's frail) meaning it doesn't diue to any physical hit ever unlike rosy, while it does lose out to celeb in the bulk department, it has quite an arguably better typing to make up for that. Grass/Poison isn't even weak to u turn or scizor meaning it takes u turns better than any of the other 2 competition: 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery, 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Roserade: 217-256 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, and 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 556-660 (137.6 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. And that's standard CB bulky scizor (adamant) uturn, imagine all the other physical attacks celebi's psychic typing makes it weak to like ttars crunch (252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery vs 252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Venusaur: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery & 252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery)--- looking at that damage right there, this means that against some of the metagame's top threats like chopple/lefties/scarf tar, venusaur can run 4/0 and still take less/about the same/only a tiny bit more damage than celebi's 252/220+ spread. While I'm not saying celebi is bad at all (heck that's why it's a B+/A-, the thing's great dude), I'm saying venusaur has enough combo of movepool, bulk and typing to give it an extremely good niche in this metagame and should be treated as such.

    [​IMG] Blaziken for B or B+ Rank (OU) [​IMG]
    Again, another UU mon proposal, but again, trust me on this one. Blaziken is single handedly one of the best and most versatile wallbreakers out here, the only reason it's not dnite level tier is that it gets no perfectly decent fighting STAB to compliment it's great typing other than superpower(and flare blitz recoil is never nice but it's very much so relatable to dnites' outrage's secondary effect), that and defensively, it can take a hit in a pinch, but it's no dnite. But enough about it's flaws, lets get into why I think it's so damn good: Those stats- look at them. It's in the same speed tier in dnite so it's not that bad, but, those offenses are fucking insane coupled with what we know as it's movepool and type- 120/110. Now the reason why Blaziken is so good is, well, look at it, it's a slower infernape on roids. Which by the way, please don't try to compare those 2, infernape will never be as good of a wall breaker and blaziken will never be as good as a speedy scout/revenge killer/SR lead/whatever the fuck nape even does-I don't even know anymore. But back on track: SD blaziken with stone edge I'm pretty sure at worst 2HKOs the entire meta:
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP)/ Superpower / Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Hippowdon: 364-430 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 612-722 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it can kill up to a worth of 2 dnites after rocks, that's hilarious man)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 267-315 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Vaporeon: 534-628 (115.3 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 532-628 (160.7 - 189.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (offensive DD)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 370-436 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (resttalk)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 96 Def Gyarados: 478-564 (129.1 - 152.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (bulky dd)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) / Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1004-1184 (260.7 - 307.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (up to a worth of 3 heatrans! holy fuck!)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 459-541 (136.6 - 161%) -- guaranteed OHKO (mainly the bulkiest set it tends to run)
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 459-541 (157.1 - 185.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 201-237 (77 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 336-396 (128.7 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 302-356 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Zapdos: 480-566 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Zapdos: 432-508 (112.7 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 390-459 (114.3 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 345-406 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 325-384 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    etc.
    You get my point by now, it's strong. Not to mention that but, it's very versatile too, it's mixed sets can even surprise the biggest of walls (fire blast pops hippo: 184+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hippowdon: 271-319 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery or 184+ SpA Life Orb Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) and is mostly only tooken on by things like suicune. Overall, it's so good in the amount of sets it can run (agillity, SD, fully specially based, banded, scarf, mixed LO/mixscarf, LO 4 physical attacks, and agilli/SD pass just to name a few) and how good those sets are.

    UU ranks and +s/-s and other edits coming soon

    edit: for all of you wondering how effective these 2 are in play, here's the peak I got with a chopple ttar(lead)/sd blaziken/sdef saur/CB scizor/phys def rotom-a(overheat)/hippowdon semi sand team:
    [​IMG]
    (I'm the Oiawesome at the bottom)
  2. kill yourself

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    yeah i agree, venusaur is pretty awesome.

    even though blaziken is my favorite pokemon, this ranking is far too kind to it. the only reason you should ever use it over infernape is if you want to use an agility set or something...

    this is just wrong. access to u-turn and grass knot sets it apart, as well as the blazing speed that lets it beat things like gliscor/shaymin.

    be thankful you didn't face any gliscor. starmie somewhere (probably over rotom) would help against it and spinning away hazards lets you stay alive against stall long enough to give blaziken an opportunity to sd up, especially if you have ttar (who would probably do better with a scarf set) pursuit things like rotom/starmie.
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  3. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Defensive shaymin can never OHKO blaziken unless it gives up too much of it's investment so it's more of a non issue most defensive gliscors (i.e. not stall breaker/brit scor) actually don't run enough speed for blaziken, so again, non issue. grass knot really only grabs 2HKOs on stuff like crocune that mixed blaziken can't do, things like hippo are a non issue, because again, POPPED BY A FIRE BLAST :]. U-turn is a huge gain, but again I am talking about wallbreaker not in general, infernape is very good, but I'd prefer blaziken due to it actually being able to OHKO and 2HKO walls after an SD or on a mixed set.

    And, I did face gliscor, and you know what? Gliscor did some stuff before dying to saur 1v1 in a long stall battle but it wasn't too much of an issue, I am thankful I didn't face more tho. Thanks for the commentary on the team.

    Now time to get changing the OP.
  4. kill yourself

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    the overlying problems with blaziken as a setup mon (this applies to infernape as well but its speed can sometimes make up for it) ar its typing and frailty that don't really give it much room to set up safely, and even if they do get a boost they don't always bust through shit as well as you'd like because of how easily they're revenge killed and generally worn down from hazards/sand or the occasional hail/chip damage. anyway...

    it lives if you can keep it at practically maximum health, yes, but it'll die to flare blitz recoil anyway. plus it can sub once or twice so you wear yourself down a bit more.

    actually britscor is the standard defensive set... very rarely is the bw set (impish with tons of defense) used in dpp because terrakion doesn't exist and it can safely beat lucario anyway. on the off chance you do face one, you're probably not going to be able to kill it. you'll outspeed the occasional sdef variant but that's about it.

    don't forget swampert and hippowdon, whose both shrug off mixken (if hippo is sdef as it should be and usually is)but have to be more wary of special mixape

    u-turn is part of how ape wallbreaks with physmix/cb... scout the counter and get sr + a light hit on it while switching in something to immediately force it out.

    infernape can do this too

    i can't see how a decent gliscor player would have trouble wearing down venusaur with sr + sand + an earthquake or two + taunt to stop sleep/leech tbh
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  5. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    I know my previous remarks may have not hinted at this; but I know what you mean with infernape, nape is a solid B+ pokemon in itself so to have a pokemon in a worse speed tier with worse physical STABs than it just to gain some (large) raw power is a bit unreasonable, due to this I am going to propose C+ or B- I hope we can at least agree on those.

    And sorry for the no update guys but, I was really close (had everything done, +s/-s separated and sorted, added up to C for UU, was about to do D rank, put new XY icon sprites in etc.) then my computer froze, I am really sorry about this, I hope you guys can be a bit more patient with my stupid computer :X
  6. Heist

    Heist
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    you need to move starmie up to S immediately. undoubtedly a top three pokemon and its usage reflects this

    personally i think blissey is a more useful pokemon overall than hippowdon although whether that validates blissey moving up or hippowdon moving down i am unsure. kingdra i would move down to a- because it is never quite strong enough to do a job on its own. skarmory is unquestionably a better pokemon than forretress so maybe forretress down to a- too? scizor i think is borderline a material. i reckon celebi is overall much better a pokemon than the other grassers in a- and venusaur is rarely a better choice than shaymin.

    i would move emp up and move blaziken down given that the latter is almost entirely outclassed.
  7. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    no offense but 90% of these are not being implemented because: 1) your reasons are too blunt and just not "strong enough" 2) some of these are just plain wrong and assumptive more than anything:
    blaziken is a perfect bill for B imo: almost entirely eclipsed by A rank or higher mons but otherwise extremely dangerous to deal with, which blaziken is, but for the sensitive people I compromised it and I see no desc. of why it should be lower than C+

    venusaur is a very solid pokemon and LOTS of reasons over the other 2: not weak to uturn, better movepool (well, worse grass STAB than shaymin but still), better type overall, etc.

    celebi is weak to a lot of the metagame moves like ttar's crunch, scizor's u-turn, rotom-a shadow ball etc, so basically it's ass typing keeps it out of solid A, A+ or even S

    and I could do the same for the rest of this but, stuff and things have to be done
    Danilo, dice, PttP and 4 others like this.
  8. kill yourself

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    i would hardly call them assumptive. opinions based off high-level tournament experience might be more accurate.

    starmie is easily top 3 in dpp, it is just so efficient at doing what it does...

    even though it's amazing i'd move hippo down since i agree having it higher than bliss is a bit off.

    i agree with moving kingdra down, sometimes it blows things open with rain dance but eh. honestly i'd make it B+ since i think A- is a little too kind.

    skarm/forretress thing is pretty spot on. forret is obviously very good but skarm has a slight edge over it.

    i mentioned my thoughts on scizor on the first page i think.

    it's quite good yes but you're overselling it just a tad. it has moments where it absolutely destroys but it also has games where it's decidedly mediocre, shaymin rarely has those and is much more consistent.

    heatran is weak to a lot of common metagame moves like earthquake, hydro pump, close combat, and so on. doesn't stop it from being a top 3 (5 if you want to be harsh) mon though. celebi is definitely A material with all the options it's got.
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  9. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    Just saying but 6 battles isn't the strongest justification in the world...a bigger sample size over the years has pretty much proven that Blaziken isn't a B-tier Pokemon.

    I wouldn't even say C since Infernape does most things better than it but you guys already laid out your arguments for that so...
  10. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
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    Tentacruel should be up to B. Though it doesn't have recovery of Starmie, bulk of Forretress but kind of in between, it's still pretty reliable at what it does: setting up Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spinning. I like spamming Surf against Ghosts and gradually wear them down lol. Also doesn't fear Pursuit that much though it should watch out for that when at low HP. While ttar can trap Starmie and zone can trap forry, Tenta doesn't have much of those problems. idk if anyone uses the offensive tenta set lol. Seems cool without being Pursuit bait but 80 SpA doesn't really cut it beyond killing 4/0 Ghosts. Starmie's LO Hydro Pump is way more spammable though tenta's would dent stuff but not KO them. Swords Dance is ballsy but I've never seen anyone nor used it myself o.o

    Cradily, Lanturn and Cress could go for a B- maybe. Cradily is so niche but it's really fun to use and can sweep stuff with SD / Curse. Lanturn can sweep many teams alone with SubCharge though starting it is hard but it's really worth it and dent stuff mid-game or just go for the sweep late game. It has the coverage of Starmie too! And also sets up on Starmie :p as long as it doesn't have lol Psychic / Grass Knot. GK hits for 40 BP too so you can even set up on weak GK sometimes. Cress is ridiculously bulky that you can use as a p cool utility counter. Any form of set up with Cress is slow (except dual screens) and takes a ton of set up before it can dish decent damage lol. Moonlight is meh with ttar everywhere but ChestoRest is usable as long as stuff like ttar are gone.

    Clefable could be B or C too. LO Clefable is scary o_o support clefable works too. Magic Guard can save you sometimes and basically lol at leech seed unless Seed Flare SpD drops or facing a Breloom. Ambipom shouldn't even be on the list :O! I've used it and it's fun killing random stuff but it doesn't do anything against good players. Donphan for B/C. It's a fun spinner and has Ice Shard *_* Assurance kills Ghosts (and lol Starmie if it switches in for idk what). You can slap Seed Bomb on it and kill Swampert at idk what health. It dies to like every special attack though and can't set spikes :(

    Registeel is another good mon missing from the list. It's bulky *_* Slowbro as well and a couple of mons but I shall stop here for now haha
    Monte Cristo and PttP like this.
  11. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    js I love all these suggestions and I will edit my replies in when I'm not on a shitty phone

    look out for more original post revamps since once I get on my comp I will be doin' em

    edit: Revamp 1 done! ^_^

    Ok lets recap with some replies first I guess

    Let me get this straight: this ladder rank isn't meant to be anything huge, it's to show that you can at least make these 2 pokemon usable at worst, taking them not of the D rank noms. list, but apparently you still want to make it D rank from your "wouldn't even say C" remark.

    Now you have to look at what the ranks mean before you actually make a remark like that :/,
    "B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks."

    Like it or not Blaziken fits B : it fits a niche that it's a harder hitting infernape ,without some of the tools that 'nape has, like speed, holding it back, that runs scarf and agility sets with a higher degree of success, however due to it's flaws it cannot sweep or wall significant portions of the meta. And blaziken is partially outclassed by infernape with all the tools it has, but without the power of blaziken, however blaziken is still very dangerous and can rip apart stall and balance into pieces if played right (I honestly have not seen much people even use this thing in DPPt OU besides the crazy old guy- me. so the whole remark of greater testing disproving this is kind of a weird remark, don't you say)

    But if I cannot sell you on that: it fits C even better- it is effective given the right support, but has crippling flaws like middling physical STABs that prevents it from being consistent and it is somewhat typically considered inferior to infernape

    ok let me say something first- I do not think venusaur is better than shaymin- I was simply challenging his doubting of it being worthy of A-

    Also- blissey being a good wall has nothing to do with hippos rank- Hippo is one of the best walls in DPPt, without hippo the metagame would be insane- nothing will ever touch hippos impact on the metagame defensively, it's sheer presence keeps things like dragonite from being broken, makes pokemon literally unviable or under the B neutral ranking and is in general one of the best walls in DPPt, case closed. A+ or higher until some absurd flood of anti hippo sets hit DPPt /that/ hard.

    Now blissey on the other hand, is fucking amazing and has changed the metagame for special attackers like no other, and henceforth has been changed to A+.

    More things about your post:
    - Forre is mainly a great bulky spinner, which is a niche skarm cannot touch, yes they are similar but I do not believe their sheer presence should affect each others rankings. they are both great pokemon and their slight gap in consistency in setting spikes is not large enough to justify an entire rank full
    - I'll wait on kingdra till I get more opinions on it
    - celeb is now solid A rank, the other bulky grasses will remain untouched until more people speak on it

    I had no real objections with sandshrewz's post so it's implemented-or should be-

    more revamps like an addition of a dppt UU viability rank coming soon

    edit 2 for stuff I forgot to say cuz dumb:OH! IMPORTANT UPDATE!

    As you may have noticed from heatran on the ranks (no bias towards tran but it's the first mon ranked so I just did it first) there are these things called write ups I took from the (OMs) Gen 5 PU viability ranks & (gen5) Ubers rankings called
    Write Ups! Write ups are basically explanations of the pokemons viability and ranking in the rankings, kind of like a mini analysis, use heatran as an example. I will be accepting user submissions for write ups and will be working on them yourself, if you want to post your own just please post your rough draft, feel free to QC any off ones in the Original Post so far!
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  12. i excel

    i excel Banned deucer.

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    Kingdra is a decent mon, but it's often underwhelming. Great typing, but has mediocre stats. Hard to find time to set up. A- seems like a good fit.

    I don't like Swampert in A. It's basically free spikes. Used to be able to check a lot more of the metagame before fwg became as common. Fire resist doesn't make up for the lack of recovery Hippowdon gets. If you're team really hates sand or something, Tyranitar and Hippo are on so many teams anyway, that Swamperts lack of isn't too big of a thing. A B mon in my eyes, A- wouldn't be too bad I suppose.

    Infernape in B doesn't make much sense to me, particularly with Lucario in A. Infernape is still a top tier wallbreaker and sweeper. U-turn, physical and special setup, insane coverage with solid speed hardly seems to fit the criteria for B rank. Solid A Rank Pokemon.

    Skarmory is A+ I would say. Able to set up spikes on a large portion of the metagame with Taunt giving it free turns against slower/defensive teams. Sets up on/walls unboosted Grass types, bulky Water, Tar, Scizor, Metagross, Flygon, Hippo and many other defensive mons that can show up in OU such as Clefable and Nidoqueen.

    Empoleon can still run SubPetaya and Agility Life Orb sets to good effect, while also providing occasional defensive support with Stealth Rock and Roar. I think this makes it worthy of B+ at least, if not A-.

    The S tier looks good. Jirachi is the only one arguable.
  13. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    I do not agree with some of these Pokemon in C+/C/C- rank: Magnezone is way better than C+, it is great at trapping Steels allowing other Pokemon to sweep and it also just is very powerful on its own with some nice resistances. Staraptor also should be some sort of B rank imo, it can be very powerful, Flying is a great STAB, one of the best and it also great coverage moves in Return and Close Combat. Yes, it is countered by Rotom-A but other than that not a lot likes taking one of these moves. SubRoost Zapdos is OHKOed by CB Return after SR! Uxie is also a really good support mon imo, its TrickScarf lead set is really good. Cradily can be C+ or B- imo, its Curse set is really amazing if your team can support it well. Oh and these are personal preferences but Hitmontop should be B- at least and Froslass at least C+.

    Also, why the hell is Lanturn so high? What's so good about it?
  14. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
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    o I brought up Lanturn. I'm cool with discussing this. I personally only use the SubCharge set. Once it gets a couple of boosts it can easily sweep common team types thanks to perfect type coverage. Getting a couple of boosts isn't too hard either. Starmie is common so it's a free set up, though it should usually be preserved for mid/late-game so you don't waste HP early with wasted subs. Swampert is a hard wall unless Lanturn is like +2 or +3 to KO with Hydro Pump, but it can be worn down in 2/3 times with Ice Beam / Hydro Pump if you can keep getting a subcharge cycle up. It also has a chance to beat Blissey as well, though I'd rather not waste PP against Blissey *_* Lanturn is hard to build with though, but it's worth it.

    I also mentioned Cradily for B-, not sure why that wasn't added; probably oversight haha. Magnezone should be B/+ at least. And Froslass is annoying with Spikes and Destiny Bond e_e
  15. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    Oh yes, I guess SubCharge Lanturn can be decent sometimes, though I think there aren't really a lot of situations where it is better than Suicune etc except forcing a switch on Starmie. But I was kind of confused by the tierings, I was just really confused when it's higher than Magnezone, etc. and the other mons I mentioned, but looking at B- it's okay I guess since that's not really a great tier either. Though personally I would move it down to C+ still.

    Edit:

    Oh and why are Registeel and Clefable in the same tier as Machamp, Roserade, Bronzong, etc. They are pretty bad from my experience.
  16. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    I think Gyarados should be A+ rank. It has a couple of sets and all of them are great. Its pure offensive DD set is good for offensive teams, it can just find a setup opportunity so easily compared to other sweepers, and wearing down its counters is just so easy.

    The main reason though, why I think Gyarados should be A+ rank is its RestTalk set on stall teams. For me, my only staples for stall teams are Blissey and Gyarados. Intimidate is just such an amazing ability, and Gyarados can check so many physical sweepers. It is definitely on par with Hippowdon on usefulness in my opinion.
  17. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Seconding Tomahawk. RestTalk Gyarados is an absolute defensive monster on stall, cockblocking all the Fighters in OU unless they run obscure coverage to beat it. DD + Taunt is my personal favorite set because it rolls on Skarmory, but all DD variants are extremely powerful. I still maintain that Gyarados is the biggest reason Rotom-A gets the use it does in DPP OU(not saying it wouldn't get use if Gyara wasn't around).
  18. taxi driver

    taxi driver Legendary
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    why is smeargle D rank I've been using it on my HO team instead of azelf and it performs significantly has a hazard lead in this meta with a set of spore,spikes,sr, and u-turn and it surprises people every time for some reason. I find it hard to believe that a poke that was ou for the entire gen and the face of one of the best HO dpp teams (august and kg's) to be below the likes of Hariyama and Ambipom, its amazing how many hazards it can get up against stall teams the only thing stopping it from doing its job are lum berry leads which are becoming less and less popular. The only reason I can see it in D rank is because you just despise smeargle which is understandable he is a bitch.
    Shiruba and sandshrewz like this.
  19. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    OK, so I don't know why I've taken so long to give my own input on this thread, but here we go. Thread needs activity again anyway.

    When I really look at A+, I really wonder if the Pokemon there really need to be a tier higher than those in A. I would probably support Hippowdon being better than the other three (it can be debated on it actually being an S rank, it's such a good defensive Pokemon). I wont say Blissey is bad, it's not as good as it was in late 2010, and definitely not as good as before that period. It's still the Special wall, so it can hold its place. I really like Zapdos and Dragonite, but a couple of the A rank guys can match them in usefulness.

    The first glaring oddity that stands out is Venusaur. I can't give a solid opinion on it because I haven't used it in a long, long time. However, why would it be A- when Gliscor or Infernape is B+? Is it really all that better than Roserade? Roserade's Physical stats are absolutely pitiful, but it's good decent numbers everywhere else, plus any bulk you decide to throw on it goes a decent way in helping it survive. It's got a faster sleep and Leech Seed than Venusaur, while also bring entry hazards. Swords Dance on Venusaur looks cool, but you're not overly fast and get countered too easy by other Grass types and some flyers. Your health wears down fast too. I don't see any whenever I battle at all, so I think it should go no higher than B or B-.

    Shaymin should just be in A. Seed Flare and no Physic typing is a good trade-off for Recover. It brings much more immediate offensive pressure than Celebi. Both of them are great.

    I honestly think Suicune is probably an A rank. The offensive set should always be prepared for.

    Unless I'm blind, I don't see any discussion on how Milotic is in A. There's the case on it being B. I won't argue it being ranked as B or B-, but it probably belongs in a C rank. Recovery is great and either Recover or Rest goes well with Marvel Scale, but I'm not sure if the initial low Defense is worth it on most teams. You can simply run Suicune and just use a cleric to get rid of sleep. As for the others in A-, they can be moved to A in my opinion.

    Gliscor and especially Infernape are too good and common to be ranked as B+. They should go up to A or A- (if that rank stays). Machamp could possibly go up, it's never a bad choice really (No Guard Dynamicpunch is always a frustrating obstacle). Some stuff in B can drop (like Bronzong), but they're fine where they are really.

    Last thing at a B ranking, Cresselia. I need to try using it (haven't used it in a while), but I think it could still be a good Pokemon. Scizor isn't omnipresent anymore, and Tyranitar can be dealt with. Sandstorm is a big issue, though, so even Hippowdon is annoying. It's just a thought, but it's probably at a good ranking right now.

    On to the lower rankings. I don't think I'll argue for anything else going lower, but some stuff should definitely be ranked higher. Dugtrio has the crucial ability to snipe certain Pokemon instantly without them being able to do anything about it in some situations. It's got crappy stats, but the Speed is just high enough to make it a serious threat that can take out key Pokemon on a team. We all know about U-Turn into Dugtrio on Heatran or Tyranitar now, it's something that should be on the mind always. I say B or B-. You just need to make sure your team is built to utilize it properly.

    Staraptor is better than a C+ rank, regardless of Stealth Rocks and recoil. It's strong as hell and has light utility in U-Turn and Intimidate. It's an effective scout and good prediction just clears out opponents. I say a B or B-.

    I have been using Hitmontop a lot these past few months. I don't know if that rank is based off of the current set in OU, but its bulk and utility is massively underrated. First, don't use max Def Impish. It doesn't do anything for you if you're using Foresight. Go Careful with a ton of SpD. Pure Fighting and Intimidate is good enough on the Physical side. Now you can all of a sudden take Special hits nicely and have more chances to Rapid Spin. You can actually beat Gengar with Pursuit + Sucker Punch (a combo I use which is great) and some non-bulky Rotom-A (as long as they don't burn you). You can have the ability to check some others with the same moves. It's bulky, doesn't die right away, provides great support, checks/counters some top threats, and can form solid cores on a team. I can vouch for it being a B rank.

    I honestly don't see why Torterra is even listed.

    Dusknoir is definitely better than a D rank. I don't use it, but I see a decent amount of them and can see why it could be annoying. The main problem with it is it's pathetic HP. It's nowhere near Rotom-A as a spinblocker (or as a Pokemon in general). However, you need to always have a way to beat Dusknoir. It never kills anything, but players can sure make it hard for it to be killed. One good switch and it can get an opening for Pain Slit or Will-o-Wisp, get out, come back in and repeat the process. It should at least be in C, it isn't something you need to cater over half your team to fit it on.

    And Porygon-Z. One of my other old favorites to use. Again, I need to actually use it in today's game, but I've used it in the late 2010 era and it still did pretty decent. Back then, I hardly ever got less than two kills with it because it does so much damage. Run the Choice Specs with Download. You just need to not throw it out in any situation. Just make a couple good predictions or remove certain Pokemon. All that really troubles it is Tyranitar (unless you catch it on the switch with HP fighting, but I don't recommend that move at all) and Blissey. Obvious Ghosts can be caught with Dark Pulse, most Steels get hit hard with Thunderbolt. Everything else gets blasted by Tri-Attack (or Ice Beam, when needed), which should 2HKO almost anything that doesn't resist it. It should move up to C.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  20. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    Yeah I agree with lots of things you said, this thing is never update.

    Venusaur: Venusaur definitely has enough advantages over Roserade to warrant usage, being able to take a physical hit is pretty cool. I would say it should be lower than the other Grass-types, B+ or B seems fair for it. Edit: Roserade is ranked that much lower than Venusaur?? Okay that is weird

    Shaymin: Just as good as Celebi, agreed, A is good for it. Suicune: Eh, it's definitely a good mon but A- seems fine for it. You can not prepare for it and it's not that big of a deal. Milotic Not as good as Suicune indeed (in most cases), should be a rank lower imo.

    Gliscor/Infernape: Gliscor in B+ seems kinda fair tbh, A- can work as well. Infernape should def be A-.

    Cresselia: Eh, it's not that good imo, it can take a lot of hits but best it can do is Thunder Wave, and all of S rank it can do nothing against, which is kinda poor as a 'general' wall. Also poor recovery and set up fodder for anything with Taunt, Sub, Ground-type not weak to Ice Beam, etc.

    Dugtrio: Definitely B worthy, it can just win games. Lots of stuff it can trap, Ttar, Heatran, Jirachi, Blissey, and a welltimed U-turn and one of those is gone.

    Don't feel like typing more and I agree with the rest you mentioned (except PorygonZ)
  21. MoxieInfinite

    MoxieInfinite Banned deucer.

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    yea, ape needs to be a-
  22. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I agree partially when people say he's great but not top tier. The thing about him though is that he's perfectly built for what he does. Cool typing, support and utility, survivability, and offensive potential, all capped by a good Speed stat. On that note, he's a solid B+. However, while he's already good enough with that, I think the potential for Sand Veil dodges gives him the extra kick to be marked into A territory.

    Wouldn't disagree with any of this, which is why I didn't propose a shift. The mention of her not matching will against the top Pokemon (can wall Starmie though, but that's it) is a good point.

    I don't know why I really brought her up, but I suppose her current position could be defended. With the way things are, she can't function as a proper wall without several mons out of the picture. She'll be a supporter more often than not, albeit one that's significantly bulkier (so it's guaranteed to do do something helpful). She's still a pain if she gets Reflect up, and is not dead slow. I bet the dual screener can still do work, I should try it on a new team sometime.
  23. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
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    I don't really see how Cresselia can wall Starmie though, if it has just a bit of prior damage it is 2HKOed by LO Hydro Pump and if it has Recover you can't do anything since it has Natural Cure and resists Ice Beam / Psychic.
  24. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    That's true. I didn't even realize that even Calm takes up to over 40% unless significantly buffed in SpD. You can buy time with Thunder Wave I guess (but Starmie has Natural Cure). You need Sandstorm absent to be truly safe though.
  25. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    a to c range could use some cleaning up but just to chime in on cress, i think its c at best in this metagame. s tier shits on it, sand is everywhere, and as a "general wall" it lends itself more towards being setup fodder. ive only seen it used with ridic support, ie a cm rest set paired with dug + zone a la mariano dragon, and its still an incredibly meh win condition even in a situation that favorable due to its glacial pace, piss poor damage, and vulnerability while resting. set basically falls on its face if the opponent has any extra offense or trick. i remember simply 1v1ing it with dd gyara in a tour match and countersweeping after hed trapped and killed 2 guys early for free. however, it did go to work on me one time at the hands of stone cold when i was packin a helpless stallier squad that completely relied on ttar for it :/. i liked how someone touched on a screens pivot tho because i think utilizing that in tandem with its unique move lunar dance could provide a more relevant niche as seen here albeit dusty af https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue1/featured_rmt
    Hot N Cold and kill yourself like this.
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