Gen 4 Generation 4 Viability Ranking (OU)

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Jirachee

an insane thinker
is a Tournament Directoris a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Head TD
uh, where does the Zapdos change come from? we haven't discussed it at all in the previous page, while we have discussed empoleon and roserade a ton, yet these weren't changed... I really disagree in dropping Zapdos to A anyway. It's versatile enough to fit on most teams and nothing really likes to switch into it aside from a Blissey (many teams only carry Tyranitar as an immediate switch in for it and it surely doesn't like taking a tbolt for 35 or more if specs'd). Not only that, but it checks many things that are very hard to check, like Breloom, making it a very good addition to most teams. Being set up fodder for DDTar or SR weak are flaws but Zapdos's all around excellence and versatility makes it worthy of A+ imo
 
uh, where does the Zapdos change come from? we haven't discussed it at all in the previous page, while we have discussed empoleon and roserade a ton, yet these weren't changed... I really disagree in dropping Zapdos to A anyway. It's versatile enough to fit on most teams and nothing really likes to switch into it aside from a Blissey (many teams only carry Tyranitar as an immediate switch in for it and it surely doesn't like taking a tbolt for 35 or more if specs'd). Not only that, but it checks many things that are very hard to check, like Breloom, making it a very good addition to most teams. Being set up fodder for DDTar or SR weak are flaws but Zapdos's all around excellence and versatility makes it worthy of A+ imo
idk there's also things like sdef celebi, hippo and more, also tab kinda convinced me to re rank dos from scratch since its discussion was somewhat unfinished. also Rose and Emp still seem to be going so i'm waiting until sunday
 

BKC

sometimes I feel I gotta get away
is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion
--S Rank--

  • Tyranitar
  • Starmie
  • Heatran
  • Rotom-X
  • Jirachi
--A+ Rank--

  • Zapdos
  • Dragonite
  • Skarmory
  • Breloom
--A Rank--

  • Suicune
  • Gengar
  • Infernape
  • Gliscor
  • Gyarados
  • Flygon
  • Lucario
  • Hippowdon
  • Metagross
  • Shaymin
  • Celebi
  • Blissey
  • Scizor
  • Azelf
  • Forretress
  • Kingdra
--A- Rank--

  • Aerodactyl
  • Roserade
  • Empoleon
  • Swampert
  • Crobat
--B+ Rank--

  • Abomasnow
  • Nidoqueen
  • Bronzong
  • Mamoswine
  • Vaporeon
  • Jolteon
  • Machamp
--B Rank--
  • Dugtrio
  • Quagsire
  • Venusaur
  • Snorlax
  • Magnezone
  • Raikou
  • Clefable
  • Milotic
--B- Rank--

  • Weavile
  • Cradily
  • Togekiss
  • Spiritomb
  • Heracross
  • Tentacruel
--C+ Rank--

  • Froslass
  • Rhyperior
  • Cresselia
  • Staraptor
  • Donphan
  • Uxie
  • Hitmontop
  • Slowbro
--C Rank--

  • Moltres
  • Sceptile
  • Yanmega
  • Mesprit
  • Gallade
  • Medicham
  • Honchkrow
  • Registeel
  • Lanturn
  • Feraligatr
  • Torterra
  • Blaziken
  • Hariyama
--D Rank--

  • Smeargle
  • Dusknoir
  • Porygon-Z
  • Electivire
  • Umbreon
  • Ambipom
  • Ninjask
 
Love your guys' list but do you guys care about having sprites at all in the OP? cause they can be a bitch to image URL and repost at times but ifyou guys care I'd gladly add them

McM Edit: Yes, they make the whole thing cool to look at :toast:
 
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Is gengar a tad overrated?

The fact it can't survive a scarf tar/scizor pursuit if it stays in, it makes it so easy for your oponent to trap. To the point where, when I use Gengar, I'm scared to kill anything because then I'll loose my Gengar.

It's an extremely powerful pokemon and if unchecked will tear teams apart. Sup split, taunt wow, explosion Gengar and the counter lead are all very effective in their own right. But I just think it's overrated in the current metagame.

A-
 
Yeah......I'm not that active in DPP but I'm looking to pick it up so may as well comment here:
Gengar did lose a fair bit of it's power due to how easily it can be Pursuit Trapped by common Mons like T-Tar, but it's still extremely unpredictable and powerful....base 110 spd, 130 SpA wth Shadow Ball STAB, and a support movepool that includes stuff life Will-o-wisp, T-Wave, and even Destiny Bond (so it can at least drag down T-Tar at worst). Gengar is a great Poke and despite the pursuit weakness deserves it spot in A rank (Starmie and Celebi are also Pursuit weak and forced out by T-Tar and Scizor.....as far as I know at least)
 

Jirachee

an insane thinker
is a Tournament Directoris a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Head TD
--S Rank--

  • Tyranitar
  • Starmie
  • Heatran
  • Rotom-X
  • Jirachi
--A+ Rank--

  • Zapdos
  • Dragonite
  • Skarmory
  • Breloom
--A Rank--

  • Suicune
  • Gengar
  • Infernape
  • Gliscor
  • Gyarados
  • Flygon
  • Lucario
  • Hippowdon
  • Metagross
  • Shaymin
  • Celebi
  • Blissey
  • Scizor
  • Azelf
  • Forretress
  • Kingdra
--A- Rank--

  • Aerodactyl
  • Roserade
  • Empoleon
  • Swampert
  • Crobat
--B+ Rank--

  • Abomasnow
  • Nidoqueen
  • Bronzong
  • Mamoswine
  • Vaporeon
  • Jolteon
  • Machamp
--B Rank--
  • Dugtrio
  • Quagsire
  • Venusaur
  • Snorlax
  • Magnezone
  • Raikou
  • Clefable
  • Milotic
--B- Rank--

  • Weavile
  • Cradily
  • Togekiss
  • Spiritomb
  • Heracross
  • Tentacruel
--C+ Rank--

  • Froslass
  • Rhyperior
  • Cresselia
  • Staraptor
  • Donphan
  • Uxie
  • Hitmontop
  • Slowbro
--C Rank--

  • Moltres
  • Sceptile
  • Yanmega
  • Mesprit
  • Gallade
  • Medicham
  • Honchkrow
  • Registeel
  • Lanturn
  • Feraligatr
  • Torterra
  • Blaziken
  • Hariyama
--D Rank--

  • Smeargle
  • Dusknoir
  • Porygon-Z
  • Electivire
  • Umbreon
  • Ambipom
  • Ninjask
I agree with that list for the biggest part. Only thing I'd change would be Gyarados in A+ instead of A, because it's a very versatile Pokemon which is insanely good with all of its sets (and the DDers are very dangerous), and it's also easy to fit on teams. I'd also put Swampert in A instead of A- because shutting down Electrics with a mon that is not trappable by Dugtrio is just a godsend for so many teams, and it's hard for most teams to stop Pert from getting its rocks up because it does well against so many top tier mons. I guess giving free turns to Breloom sucks though.

Is gengar a tad overrated?

The fact it can't survive a scarf tar/scizor pursuit if it stays in, it makes it so easy for your oponent to trap. To the point where, when I use Gengar, I'm scared to kill anything because then I'll loose my Gengar.

It's an extremely powerful pokemon and if unchecked will tear teams apart. Sup split, taunt wow, explosion Gengar and the counter lead are all very effective in their own right. But I just think it's overrated in the current metagame.

A-
I certainly agree with that, but to me these flaws are what stops Gengar from being an A+ rank Pokemon. It's simply way too good against teams without a Pursuiter (and Tyranitar has to be extra careful against it) and also pretty versatile. I think A is fine.
 

Warped Worlds

formerly Lizardman
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Gengar lives a Pursuit if Gengar stays in on the Pursuit.

I don't agree with Breloom being at A+ 100%, but I consider this normal human variance in opinion. A preference. Venusaur should be B. It is better than Clefable, Quagsire, Snorlax, Jolteon, and Mamoswine. Its probably a little less good than Abomasnow, but it can fit on more teams than Abomasnow can.

I am prepared to defend my opinion if objections arise
 
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Looking at BKC's tier list, there's a few listings that I would argue.
Keep in mind this is 1. my first post (^w^) and that my competitive knowledge is somewhat small.

Recommended Adjustments:

Tentacruel: B- to C
I can't see the use of Tentacruel due to just being outclassed in most roles. As a specially defensive wall, I feel that Milotic does a better job, or Blissey as a non - Water type. I think the only uses it could possibly have is as a Toxic Spikes setter or as a specific counter (one of which I can't think of off the top of my head :P). Furthermore, its weakness to common types such as Psychic, Electric and especially Ground (being mostly physical as opposed to Psychic or Electric) leaves it even worse off.

Dusknoir: D to C- or C
The one thing I see that Dusknoir has that I could see as being competitively viable is as part of a core containing a Normal type wall (Chansey/Blissey, Snorlax, or even Wigglytuff). By having an immunity to Fighting types (which are supereffective against Normal types) and Normal types being immune to Ghost types (which destroy Dusknoir obviously), would work pretty well IMHO. It has access to Shadow Sneak, a decent Attack stat, and good defensive bulk in both Def and SpDef. However, the reason I recommend it to C is it's general outclassing. As a tank, you need max EVs in HP IN ANY MOVESET because of its terrible HP stat (for a tank). Also, Dusknoir's speed (barring Shadow Sneak) is also pretty low, leaving it outsped by pretty much everything else. Overall, Dusknoir is outclassed in many ways by other Pokemon, but has its niche role as part of a Ghost/Normal Tank/Wall core.

Metagross: A to A-
The main problem I have with Metagross is both good and bad. It's incredibly varible moveset makes it great as a counter to many common threats in DPP OU, but can only be a coutner to several at a time. The 4 Move Syndrome really bugs me; like Bullet Punch has priority, while Meteor Punch packs more power but could be KO'ed before being able to use it. Offensive Metagross can be outsped (even with Choice Scarf), while Defensive Metagross has weaknesses to common types (Fire & Ground). The fact that it can be a great counter DEPENDING ON THE ENEMY TEAM makes me want to lower its status slightly, as it doesn't have a specific role but still make it on a competitive team just as it's overall great niche filling to be whatever your team need. Don't get me wrong, I love Metagross. His great stats, awesome ability in Clear Body and versatility is really good, I just don't see him in the top Pokemon in the A tier.

Ninjask: D to C or C-
I have the same opinion on Ninjask as I did with Dusknoir; it has it's niche role in a team. As a very fast Baton Passer, Ninjask can be a good lead to pass it's stats along to a physical sweeper. Its passive Speed Boost gives it +1 to Speed every turn, and it has access to Swords Dance. A set with Roost, Substitute, Swords Dance, and Baton Pass has it's uses. However, Ninjask's 4x weakness to SR and terrible typing leave it only this niche role. It's also terribly fragile, so to run it as a lead you'd have to max HP EVs as well as either Attack, Speed, or Def/ SpDef. Despite this, Ninjask being able to pass Speed and Attack boosts while Roosting behind a Substitute can make it a great Baton Passer to a physical sweeper like Scizor, Lucario, Infernape, etc. is very good in the lower tiers of DPP OU.

EDIT: BKC, if you could elaborate on Empoleon's competitive viability it would be much appreciated. Empoloeon is arguably one of my favorite Pokemon in my favorite competitive game tier (DPP), so I'd love to see a couple movesets with EVs and items if you're willing.
 

BKC

sometimes I feel I gotta get away
is a Team Rater Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon championis the Smogon Tour Season 22 Champion
empoleon is either an sr lead or an agility sweeper, the 2 variants of which are 3 attacks (stab/ice beam/grass knot) @ shuca berry although i suppose life orb isnt a bad choice, or sub petaya which has to choose between ib and gk but has a ridiculously powerful surf since its putting itself in torrent range while also getting the petaya boost. sr leads are very good, the agility sets are terrifying.
 
Looking at BKC's tier list, there's a few listings that I would argue.
Keep in mind this is 1. my first post (^w^) and that my competitive knowledge is somewhat small.

Recommended Adjustments:

Tentacruel: B- to C
I can't see the use of Tentacruel due to just being outclassed in most roles. As a specially defensive wall, I feel that Milotic does a better job, or Blissey as a non - Water type. I think the only uses it could possibly have is as a Toxic Spikes setter or as a specific counter (one of which I can't think of off the top of my head :P). Furthermore, its weakness to common types such as Psychic, Electric and especially Ground (being mostly physical as opposed to Psychic or Electric) leaves it even worse off.

Dusknoir: D to C- or C
The one thing I see that Dusknoir has that I could see as being competitively viable is as part of a core containing a Normal type wall (Chansey/Blissey, Snorlax, or even Wigglytuff). By having an immunity to Fighting types (which are supereffective against Normal types) and Normal types being immune to Ghost types (which destroy Dusknoir obviously), would work pretty well IMHO. It has access to Shadow Sneak, a decent Attack stat, and good defensive bulk in both Def and SpDef. However, the reason I recommend it to C is it's general outclassing. As a tank, you need max EVs in HP IN ANY MOVESET because of its terrible HP stat (for a tank). Also, Dusknoir's speed (barring Shadow Sneak) is also pretty low, leaving it outsped by pretty much everything else. Overall, Dusknoir is outclassed in many ways by other Pokemon, but has its niche role as part of a Ghost/Normal Tank/Wall core.

Metagross: A to A-
The main problem I have with Metagross is both good and bad. It's incredibly varible moveset makes it great as a counter to many common threats in DPP OU, but can only be a coutner to several at a time. The 4 Move Syndrome really bugs me; like Bullet Punch has priority, while Meteor Punch packs more power but could be KO'ed before being able to use it. Offensive Metagross can be outsped (even with Choice Scarf), while Defensive Metagross has weaknesses to common types (Fire & Ground). The fact that it can be a great counter DEPENDING ON THE ENEMY TEAM makes me want to lower its status slightly, as it doesn't have a specific role but still make it on a competitive team just as it's overall great niche filling to be whatever your team need. Don't get me wrong, I love Metagross. His great stats, awesome ability in Clear Body and versatility is really good, I just don't see him in the top Pokemon in the A tier.

Ninjask: D to C or C-
I have the same opinion on Ninjask as I did with Dusknoir; it has it's niche role in a team. As a very fast Baton Passer, Ninjask can be a good lead to pass it's stats along to a physical sweeper. Its passive Speed Boost gives it +1 to Speed every turn, and it has access to Swords Dance. A set with Roost, Substitute, Swords Dance, and Baton Pass has it's uses. However, Ninjask's 4x weakness to SR and terrible typing leave it only this niche role. It's also terribly fragile, so to run it as a lead you'd have to max HP EVs as well as either Attack, Speed, or Def/ SpDef. Despite this, Ninjask being able to pass Speed and Attack boosts while Roosting behind a Substitute can make it a great Baton Passer to a physical sweeper like Scizor, Lucario, Infernape, etc. is very good in the lower tiers of DPP OU.

EDIT: BKC, if you could elaborate on Empoleon's competitive viability it would be much appreciated. Empoloeon is arguably one of my favorite Pokemon in my favorite competitive game tier (DPP), so I'd love to see a couple movesets with EVs and items if you're willing.
I think I can help.

Tentacruel's main competition is from Starmie. Their resitances help them check similar threats such as Infernape. Tentacruels main niche comes from it's ability to both absorb and set down toxic spikes. Toxic spikes very effective, especially against stall. Two of the ways that spike stacking teams handle Starmie are toxic spikes and pursuit. Tentacruel is susceptible to neither. Tentacruel also runs an effective offensive set with life orb, similar to offensive Starmie. But again not weak to pursuit or toxic spikes, the neutrality to grass types and surprise factor also help here.

Dusknoir seems good at first glance due to being the bulkiest ghost, but it really doesn't check a whole lot of threats. It can't run an effective Rest talk set due to coverage options and has to rely on pain split for recovery. It is the only spin blocker that can check Dragonite and the sub punch set is fun to use. But Dusknoir is generally a wasted pokemon slot.

Metagross is really good when used properly. As a lead it does everything you want it to and can either be an anti lead with 4 attacks or a stealth rock lead. It's also flexible with item usage and can use lum berry, occa berry and choice scarf effectively. The agility set is a very effective sweeper against both stall and offense especially with peoples preference of sp.def Hippowdon and Skarmory at the moment. Trick Iron ball is also a great set crippling many of it's common counters such as Rotom, Skarmory and Zapdos. To top it all off it has the most powerful explosion in OU that can OHKO a max defence Hippowdon even when unboosted.

Ninjask is useless against any team with roar or whirlwind (aka stall), it's just not worth having that kind of liability on your team and there are better ways of punishing offensive teams (e.g. t-wave teams).
 
Gonna put smeargle in C+ because if I remember correctly Jirachee had a really good argument nobody addressed a couple pages back.
also BKC sucks
no really fuck BKC, smeargle is better than D rank ;o; (originally I put it there cause everybody was telling me too then I realized it was simply wrong)

I'll update this over the next couple of days
 
Thanks for the feedback guys! I have to go play a concert really soon, but I'll respond with more thoughts I had later today or tomorrow. Just going to leave the thought that unless you're running Choice Scarf Roserade, why would you go with a Tentacruel over a Toxic Spikes Roserade? Roserade can also absorb enemy Toxic Spikes, has a better movepool, type coverage, and typing IMO.
 
Gallade is sitting at an incredibly poor place in the rankings. It is an effective anti-lead and a very viable Pokemon with a great movepool, decent sped with amazing attack and good offensive typing. This should be no less then B+. This is me being harsh on it (I would even dare say it deserves A-).

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
 
Gallade is a pretty good lead but it's not a really good offensive mon overall imo, he can be quite scary against offensive teams because he is quite powerful but he can't switch into shit, he's not very fast (shadow sneak is pretty bad, you don't kill anything besides offensive starmie and gengar, maybe Scarftom at +2) and he can't cut through stall. Maybe you can make it work but he's pretty hard to put in a team without needing something else.
 
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