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Genesect

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Furai, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]Genesect[​IMG]
    Download ability
    71 HP / 120 Atk / 95 Def / 120 SpA / 95 SpD / 99 Spe​

    Level-up Moves (open)
    Level 1 - Techno Blast
    Level 1 - Quick Attack
    Level 1 - Magnet Rise
    Level 1 - Metal Claw
    Level 1 - Screech
    Level 7 - Fury Cutter
    Level 11 - Lock-on
    Level 18 - Flame Charge
    Level 22 - Magnet Bomb
    Level 29 - Slash
    Level 33 - Metal Sound
    Level 40 - Signal Beam
    Level 44 - Tri Attack
    Level 51 - X-scissor
    Level 55 - Bug Buzz
    Level 62 - Simple Beam
    Level 66 - Zap Cannon
    Level 73 - Hyper Beam
    Level 77 - Selfdestruct

    TM & HM (open)
    TM01 - Hone Claws
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM13 - Ice Beam
    TM14 - Blizzard
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM16 - Light Screen
    TM17 - Protect
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM22 - Solarbeam
    TM24 - Thunderbolt
    TM25 - Thunder
    TM27 - Return
    TM29 - Psychic
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM33 - Reflect
    TM35 - Flamethrower
    TM40 - Aerial Ace
    TM42 - Facade
    TM43 - Flame Charge
    TM44 - Rest
    TM48 - Round
    TM53 - Energy Ball
    TM57 - Charge Beam
    TM64 - Explosion
    TM65 - Shadow Claw
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM69 - Rock Polish
    TM70 - Flash
    TM73 - Thunder Wave
    TM76 - Struggle Bug
    TM81 - X-Scissor
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM89 - U-turn
    TM91 - Flash Cannon
    HM02 - Fly

    Move Tutors (open)
    Bug Bite, Dark Pulse, Electroweb, Giga Drain, Gravity, Gunk Shot, Iron Defense, Iron Head, Last Resort, Magic Coat, Magnet Rise, Recycle, Signal Beam, Sleep Talk, Snore , Zen Headbutt


    The one and only, the last piece of the DW trio, after Keldeo and Meloetta, it's here! Genesect makes one of the best Choice Scarf users in the game, thanks to its huge movepool, consisting moves such as Thunderbolt, Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, and Fire Blast, and its STAB U-turn. Genesect does not stop there though; it can effectively run a Rock Polish set to become a fearsome sweeper that can demolish a lot of teams. Thanks to its high base 120 Attack and Special Attack, and good base 99 Speed makes it a big offensive threat in Ubers. It's bulk is mediocre at best and if it had one more point in Speed he would atleast tie with the common Choice Scarf users of Ubers, such as Salamence and Palkia. In Research Week #6 we researched the trio for the time that is now.
  2. Gates

    Gates

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    Since you brought it up in the OP, let's talk about his stats. I'm just going to run through some quick bullet points. Get ready to see variations on the phrase "outspeed Rayquaza" a lot.

    99 Speed forces him to run some weird EVs to have optimal sets.
    • On a non-Scarf, non-boosting, +Spe nature set, it needs to run 224 Spe EVs to outrun unboosted Jolly Rayquaza.
    • Similarly, a non-Scarf, non-boosting, neutral nature set should run 224 Spe EVs to outrun unboosted Adamant Rayquaza, although you can run 248 Spe if you want to outspeed Jolly CB Heracross.
    • On a Choice Scarf set with a +Spe nature, the best it can hope to do is run 248 Spe to outspeed Timid Scarf Hydregion, 228 Spe to outrun Adamant Agiligross and neutral nature Cloyster after a Shell Smash, or 224 Spe EVs to outrun +1 Jolly Rayquaza. Of the pokemon I mentioned, DDQuaza is the most common by far, so I recommend that set the most.
    • You probably think I'm going to suggest the same as above on a neutral nature Scarf set to outspeed +1 Adamant Rayquaza, but I'm not...I'm going to suggest 236 Spe EVs to outspeed +Spe Deoxys-A AND +1 Adamant Rayquaza. Hah!
    • On a RP set with a +Spe nature, it can run 244 EVs to outspeed +3 Adamant Blaziken or, more realistically, 184 EVs to outspeed Jolly RP/Double Dance Groudon. Most realistic though would probably be to just run 144 Spe EVs to outspeed Scarf Mewtwo (This is equivalent to Neutral Nature 248 Spe EVs). What's interesting to note is that the first two sets will outspeed any Excadrill in the sand and the third set will outspeed any Adamant Excadrill in the sand. After that, +1 Fire Blast will always have a chance to OHKO even the bulkiest Excadrill, and +1 Flamethrower will always OHKO aggressive Excadrills with no SpD or HP investment. Even an unboosted Fire Blast will have a very high chance to OHKO non-defensive builds. This makes RP Genesect a potential Excadril check imo, but it's worth noting that Earthquake does a very significant amount of damage even for relatively uninvested Excadrill. RP Genesect ain't shit compared to Jumpluff tho.
    • Flame Charge sets should follow the EVs for the Scarf sets since getting more than one boost is not guaranteed.

    A final thing to note is that with 71/90 special defenses, Genesect is more specially bulky than Forretress while still having Forry's amazing resistances (Ice, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, etc.). Because of both this and the fact that he gets many notable supporting moves like Toxic, Thunder Wave, Trick, Magic Coat, Snatch, Struggle Bug, and Stealth Rock, perhaps a defensive set is viable? Some quick calcs show that outside of the rain 24 HP/252 SpD Calm Genesect can take any attack Palkia throws at him (even Fire Blast) and even in the rain the only attack that is a guaranteed OHKO at full health is Specs Hydro Pump. EDIT: Okay, I was looking at the wrong list. He only Toxic, TWave, and Magic Coat, so a support set is pretty much out of the question. Bulky set may work though and the defense calcs are still accurate.

    "What's the point of this post?"
    So that we have some optimal speed EVs to point at when we explain to you why running max speed on this guy is practically pointless (barring speed creep).
  3. superbadd

    superbadd

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  4. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    No. You may bulkier but Forry does it better.
    If you're using a scarf set, you should be running max Speed because I'd rather tie with other 'Sect than get a little bit of stat points.

    Anyway, while Rock Polish sets might be cool, I think we're really going to see Genesect's viability of being an excellent Choice Scarf user, having a distinctive niché of being one of the few Scarfers who can abuse U-Turn in Ubers. 99 Speed is great in Ubers, and with Download he can get a mean hit on most things too.

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef) / Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
    - U-Turn
    - Ice Beam
    - Flamethrower
    - Bug Buzz / Thunderbolt (instead of Thunder for Ho-Oh)

    This is the best choice Scarfer set imo. Ice Beam and Flamethrower give you very good coverge in combination with Genesect's Bug STAB. I like Bug Buzz a lot because if you get a Sp. Atk boost it's great to spam, but Thunderbolt is also nice for nailing Ho-Oh and Kyogre harder than you do without. Since you'll be getting Attakc boosts most of the time, you can force a bit of a VoltTurn situation, and U-Turn is also cool because it OHKO's Mewtwo, Darkrai, and the new Lati@s.
  5. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Here. But apparently you say these are wrong, so I'll go edit it in right away!
  6. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    People please remember to run calcs before making claims!

    4 Atk U-turn vs 4/0 Mewtwo 59.9% - 71.2%
    4 Atk +1 U-turn vs 4/0 Mewtwo 90.4% - 106.8%
    4 Atk U-turn vs 64/0 Latias 66.9% - 79.5%
    4 Atk U-turn vs 4/0 Darkrai 75.2% - 89.4%
    4 Atk U-turn vs 4/0 Latios 78.1% - 92.1%

    Yeah you need some investment there. Given, versus Latias and Latios you are getting the attack boost so you can discount those. I honestly feel like Genesect is extremely underwhelming. Base 120 attacking stats are good in OU but they are just piss weak in Ubers where 105/90/90 defenses are considered frail. Genesect does have amazing coverage, but the words "Its super effective" does not equal a KO. Download is Genesect's saving grace, however, and the only reason why I'm not discounting it right away. Ubers craves a fast Steel-type that doesn't hand the momentum over to the opponent because on hyper offensive teams you often have to sacrifice something to faster dragons. Maybe Genesect will fill this void, but I have doubts. I expect there to be a lot of metagaming to force Genesect to get a certain boost. For reference equal SpD and Def = SpA boost, Higher def = SpA, and Higher SpD = Atk. With Mewtwo, I definitely want Genesect getting a SpA boost so it has to stay in and Bug Buzz. Sure it has more power, but then you have a choice-locked Bug attack to set up on with Ghost Arceus/Rayquaza/etc.
  7. mtr

    mtr

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    It won't be underwhelming on stall teams, since it's an all-in-one check against a litany of annoying threats that stall has been suffering against since BW. Sure, Ghostceus and Rayquaza are issues, but nobody uses Rayquaza anyways, and Mewtwo/Latios are way better at stallbreaking than Ghostceus. Especially now that we have Snatch implemented on Showdown.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Let's see some calcs about Rock Polish Genesect, against the top 20 more common pokes in Ubers. I will be using Bug Buzz + Thunder + Ice Beam as the 3 moves, as i believe that Flamethrower's use is very limited (you will see why), and all the other moves are essential for Genesect. All calcs are assuming a +1 SpA boost:

    RP Genesect vs Top 20 (open)
    1. Thunder vs 4 HP Kyogre: 115.2 - 135.67%
    Thunder vs 252 HP Kyogre: 97.52 - 114.85%

    2. Bug Buzz vs 88 HP Arceus: 63.27 - 74.44%

    3. Ice Beam vs 252 HP Groudon: 113.36 - 133.66%

    4. Bug Buzz vs 4 HP Mewtwo: 183.61 - 216.94%

    5. Bug Buzz vs 4 HP Darkrai: 230.49 - 272.34%

    6. Bug Buzz vs 0 HP Palkia: 79.43 - 93.45% (43.75% chance to OHKO after SR)

    7. Thunder vs 252 / 252 + Forretress: 73.44 - 86.44% (75% chance to OHKO after SR + Spikes)

    8. Thunder vs 252 / 80 Lugia: 82.21 - 97.11%

    9. Ice Beam vs 252 / 200 + Dialga: 42.57 - 50.49% (2HKO after SR + Spikes 96.09% of the time)

    10. Bug Buzz vs 0 HP Kyurem-W: 79.28 - 93.6%

    11. Ice Beam vs 4 HP Rayquaza: 260.22 - 306.81%

    12. Bug Buzz vs 252 / 208 + Ferrothorn: 56.53 - 66.76%

    13. Thunder vs 192 / 76 Ho-Oh: 85.28 - 100.74%

    14. Ice Beam vs 248 / 8 Giratina: 70.77 - 83.49% (OHKO after SR + Spikes 56.25% of the time)
    Ice Beam vs 252 / 252 + Giratina: 52.88 - 62.42%

    15. Thunder vs 4 HP Blaziken: 117.21 - 138.07%

    16. Ice Beam vs 252 HP Zekrom: 103.46 - 122.27%

    17. Ice Beam vs 4 HP Garchomp: 268.15 - 316.2%

    18. Ice Beam vs 0 / 0 - Giratina-0: 105.66 - 124.71%
    Ice Beam vs 212 HP Giratina-0: 84.61 - 100% (81.25% chance to OHKO after SR)

    19. Bug Buzz vs 0 HP Kyurem-B: 83.12 - 98.2%

    20. Bug Buzz vs 0 / 0 - Deoxys-A: 853.94 - 1005.8% (LOL :D)


    As you can see Genesect can OHKO pretty much everything after SR + Spikes, except from Ferrothorn, Arceus, Dialga and SpD Giratina-0, and 2hkoes the whole top 20. And out of the 4 pokes that Genesect can't ohko, only Arceus is likely to be at full health late game, as Dialga, Ferrothorn and Giratina are all easy to weaken, as they don't have reliable recovery, and are also used to check many other pokes. Also from the list you can see that a fire move has little use, as it is only useful to ohko Ferrothorn and Forretress in Sun, while both Thunder and Ice Beam are essential.

    So far, Genesect seems as a top-tier cleaner/sweeper, but we have one more thing to look at: how easy is it for Genesect to set-up and gain the SpA boost? I will leave this one for you guys to discuss...
  9. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    You have a very poor argument here. It's going to be OHKOing Lati@s and Darkrai with +1 U-Turn, and Stealth Rock/LO recoil ensures Mewtwo dies. If for some reason you get a SAtk boost, Bug Buzz OHKO's. You can't say that a U-Turn/Bug Buzz Gene can't OHKO any of those unless they're running Bulky Mewtwo.


    The reason I really like Genesect is because it can mess up many members of Offensive teams hard, for example the aforementioned Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Lati@s, and even more like Rayquaza and Deoxys. It can do what a lot of other Scarfers can do but Download, U-Turn, it's great typing and coverage are what set it apart mainly.
  10. mtr

    mtr

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    Bluff a Scarf and threaten an OHKO. They switch out to a non-Blissey Pokemon, you get to sweep unless they have a counter prepared.
  11. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    I've seen some people putting Explosion on Genesect, which, especially with an Attack boost via Download, could be useful in situations when one desperately needs to take down an opponent's bulky setup sweeper, most notably many Arceus Formes, as few people expect Genesect to run this move. It is also an easy way to lure and destroy the opponent's Ho-Oh on the switch, if one desperately needs the opponent's Ho-Oh down.
  12. Gates

    Gates

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    Fixed, thank you.

    Yeah, idk what I was thinking when I suggested a defensive set. I still think a bulky set could work though.

    When you can run a viable mixed set, that "little bit of stat points" does matter.

    Mewtwo and Darkrai? Yes.
    Latios? Likely but not guaranteed for neutral nature.
    Latias? No. As long as Latias has Soul Dew, +1 neutral nature Bug Buzz will never OHKO it (and +1 Modest only has a very low chance to OHKO after SR). To be fair though, Latias can only do HP Fire back to get any kind of response, and that is becoming less and less common. I guess Thunder could work against Genesect too if you get the parahax?

    I think you and a lot of other people are really making Genesect's boosts seem easier to get than they actually are. I guess this thread is almost entirely where you should assume ideal cases, but consider all the pokemon in Ubers that naturally have higher SpD than Def and all the pokemon who have relatively even defensive stats but run more SpD. Out of the top 30 pokemon in the tier, I can think of five who I know for sure would have more Def than SpD - Groudon, Forry, Dialga, Kyurem-B, and Zekrom. In any given battle, your opponent may have one pokemon who you can safely switch in on to get a SpA boost, but this isn't a guarantee. Looking at Genesect as a revenge killer (which is the main thing everyone seems to be doing), how effective is a revenge killer if it can't actually kill the target? If you don't get the right Download boosts, Genesect can vary wildly from still useful to dead weight depending on the situation. For the very short period of time I was using Genesect in DW, getting the wrong boost was a huge, consistent problem that always loomed over his head, and was probably the second biggest downfall of using Genesect in the tier (the biggest was Shadow Tag Chandelure, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there). I have yet to really see anyone address this issue in this thread and it really kind of concerns me.

    Get ready to see a lot of pokemon with even Def and SpD run 4 SpD JUST to mess with Genesect.

    This is not a bad idea, but it is extremely risky since it no longer cuts the opponent's defense and there are plenty of steel, ghost, and even rock types running around Ubers these days. I think ultimately it would be riskier than it's worth.
  13. Bossness

    Bossness

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    You are missing the point here. Genesect comes in to revenge Lati@s? It will always get an attack boost with which it can KO with U-turn. Darkrai is KOed either way. Mewtwo will be KOed by +1 U-turn if it has a calm mind.
    Why in the world would genesect get a Spatk boost against the latis? He meant that you can run both Bug Buzz and U-turn to secure a KO regardless of which boost you recieve.
  14. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    Yeah, but the point is that no one expects Explosion on Genesect. Unless the opponent's Calm Mind Arceus is weak to U-turn or something, they would never switch out to their Rock, Steel or Ghost-type Pokémon in the face of Genesect. They would most likely just anticipate a U-turn, and intend to set up a Substitute or Recover off the damage, and then continue to set up Calm Minds. Even I have been personally caught off-guard a number of times by Genesect's Explosion due to this move's rarity, meaning it shouldn't be difficult at all to hit the intended target with this move.
  15. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    When I used Explosion Genesect, I made it have a different ev spread with max attack and Life Orb. While you lose the OHKO on Groudon, Explosion was actually pretty powerful. With an Attack Boost, Explosion was doing stuff like over 50% to Dialga and 94% min to Arceus, which was pretty nice! The more powerful U-turn is also pretty handy.

    A Genesect set I tested in very early dream world was Dual Screen Genesect. It was sorta intresting because U-turn could actually hurt stuff unlike most dual screeners, though I was using a max attack and max HP since I didn't have Ice Beam (I used U-turn and Explosion). I want to test out this concept more with different ev spreads and movesets though, because being a dual screener that can actually do decent damage is an interesting niche that is only really shared with Soul Dew Memento Latios!

    EDIT: I forgot to mention, I also tested Rock Polish Genesect a while ago in DW Ubers. I was pretty underwhelmed because a lot of the time, it only got an Attack boost. I may retest it though...
  16. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Do you realize that Genesect will always get an Attack boost against Lati@s? What are you thinking? My point still stands that a U-turn/Bug Buzz Genesect can always OHKO Mewtwo / Darkrai / Lati@s.


    About Explosion.. I really don't see the need of using Explosion on a Choice Scarf set, it seems like such a waste of a moveslot IMO. A Life Orb Max Attack set seems rather gimmicky when you're taking damage from U-Turn and sacrificing Gene for an Explosion.
  17. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    You are missing the point. Mewtwo and Darkrai will always give Genesect a SpA boost unless for some reason they choose to give it an Atk boost (aka investing in SpD). Sure you can Bug Buzz for the KO on Mewtwo and Darkrai and successfully revenge kill them, but you are looking at this scenario in a vacuum. If Terrakion revenge kills these two Pokemon with Stone Edge/Close Combat, a lot less things have free reign to set up. Of course, with a Scarf Pokemon you will always have these risks. +1 Scarfed Bug Buzz just begs for tons of Pokemon to have their way (most notably Ghost Arceus, Rayquaza, sub Ho-Oh, etc) with Genesect. I'd honestly choose to U-turn even if it can't manage the OHKO Darkrai/Mewtwo if the opponent has something like the aforementioned sweepers.

    And yeah Genesect is 100% getting the attack boost vs Latios and Latias. Poor Latias first no Soul Dew then Ferrothorn then when she finally gets her Soul Dew Genesect is released short after ;_;.

    I can see myself using Explosion on something like ExtremeKiller trying to set up but other than that I'd probably prefer a coverage move.

    As a side note, I think a bulky Scarf set may be worth looking into. All you need 24 Speed EVs with a +Spe nature to outspeed Mewtwo, allowing for considerable investment in bulk (or Attack I guess?). It does suck that you are basically required to run a -Def or -SpD nature though. It may not have the best defensive stats, but this allows it to abuse the resistances granted by its Steel typing to the max. You do miss out on revenging Pokemon like DD Rayquaza though, so it may not be worth it if you need your revenge killer to do that.
  18. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    If your thinking that the majority of the metagame will put Def EVs just for Bug Buzz Genesect, you are dead wrong.

    I don't see you're argument at all. Every single Scarfed Pokemon has to deal with the fact that something can set-up on them later, and I don't see any reason to discount Genesect as being good just because a few Pokemon can set-up on his Bug Buzz. Yeah, sure you can bring Ghost Arceus in on Bug Buzz, but you could do the same thing with Choice Scarfed Reshiram on Calm Mind Kyogre for example. For any Choice Scarfer, I could sit here and list off what could set-up on it since it's locked.

    Also, you've already listed most of what can come-in and set-up if Gene Bug Buzzes; Ghost Arceus, Rayquaza (who easily dies to Gene's Ice Beam anyway) and Sub Ho-Oh; maybe the very rare Bulk Up Dialga? Honestly being locked in with a +1/+1 Genesect with Bug Buzz is not bad at all, and in most of my experience it's been nothing but a good thing (Never been set-up with being locked in either!) And I think you're also missing the point that Gene has a ton of other useful traits; being able to revenge a near-full Mewtwo at all is worth of notice because previously only a few Pokemon like Kyogre could do so.
  19. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    I think firecape just meant that people would be moving the 4 HP EVs that people usually put on Mewtwo and Darkrai to its Defense, just so Genesect always gets a Special Attack boost whenever switching in on them. The downside that comes with this is pretty much completely negligible as a single less point of HP hardly means anything anyway, but not allowing Genesect to freely come in and fire a powerful U-turn is very helpful (forcing it to use Bug Buzz is a far better deal as then it gets locked into the move).
  20. mtr

    mtr

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    Who needs to waste any EVs in a stat? Just decrease the IV to 30 rather than the default 31.
  21. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    FYI, When the stats are equal, Genesect will always get a Special Attack boost, so Darkrai and Mewtwo are unlikely to change their ev spreads.
  22. mtr

    mtr

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    True, but they might if their team is afraid of RP Genesect, who looks like he has some potential against offensive teams (or stall without Blissey).

    I know this is a bit of a bump, but I've been experimenting more with Genesect, and he's actually really good. If anyone remembers Palkia from Gen IV, he's got about THAT much power as a "glue" in Gen V.

    Stall in B2/W2 was looking pretty bad because of the new Kyurem Formes and Psyshock Lati Twins. But after Genesect, it seems that the playstyle will remain viable.
  23. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    GENESECT IS SO GOOD

    HE KILLS LATIAS AND LATIOS AND MEWTWO AND DARKRAI

    but the best part is that his +1 explosion is so amazingly sexy

    it's not really good as a sweeper and i don't think lo has any value, but scarf is so amazing (and will be even more so if st chandy is released)

    also scarf should always use

    u-turn
    ice beam
    explosion
    iron head

    there's really no other thing that you can use as all of his other moves (except for maybe flamethrower?) are piss weak. flamethrower also sucks with all the kyogres running around ):
  24. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Bumping for great justice.
    GF thought that Genesect wasn't already good enough, so the metallic bug is getting 3 new event moves:
    Source: http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml

    I'll just leave this here: +2 252 Atk Normal Gem Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 286-337 (80.79 - 95.19%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Thoughts?
  25. oasis

    oasis

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    First NP Deoxys and now this. Gamefreak just does not give a fuck.

    Say hello to Extreme Killer 2.0<img id="ums_img_tooltip" class="UMSRatingIcon">

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