Gengar [4N] - MYSTICgar

[Aldaron]

Gengar has 2 MAJOR issues to worry about in DPP...Pursuit Tar and Bullet Punch / Pursuit Choiced Scizor. This set, while similar to the ones on site, allows you to beat both these Pokes.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gengar

[SET]
name: MYSTICgar
move 1: Protect
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power Fire give Gengar great coverage, and Protect allows for general scouting. Life Orb is necessary, as many Choice Band Tyranitar run a lot of Special Defense, and without Life Orb the OHKO with Focus Blast is non-existent. The EVs maximize Speed so that Gengar can both outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Scizor and Infernape and have a 50% chance of outspeeding other Hidden Power Fire Gengar.</p>

<p>Protect allows Gengar to defeat most versions of the two Pokemon that give it the most difficulty in the Platinum metagame: Pursuit Tyranitar and Bullet Punch + Pursuit Scizor. After Gengar has switched in and Tyranitar or Scizor have then switched in as well, Gengar will first use Protect to see if Tyranitar or Scizor uses Pursuit. If either Pokemon uses Pursuit, Gengar will use the proper move to OHKO it. If neither Pokemon uses Pursuit, Gengar can safely switch out. Note that even with Protect, Gengar needs to remain wary of non-Choiced Scizor with Bullet Punch and Pursuit and Choice Scarf Tyranitar with Pursuit.</p>




Pretty basic. Very similar to the main offensive set, but this thing is so effective at beating its two main counters that are also two of the most used Pokemon in the game (scizor 1, tar 7; there is also a 41.2% chance that you will run into either Scizor or Tyranitar, which is pretty significant if you ask me. having close to a 40% chance that your poke is guaranteed to die is ~_~) that I think it is imperative it gets spot in the analysis.

Comments, concerns, criticisms expected as usual, unless your name is umbarsc.

EDIT: O obviously, before I forget, this set was pretty much all BK's idea.

I just used it and loved it ^_^

 

[Havak]

Why not Timid nature?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Wow, Aldaron. I like it...but why is it called MYSTICgar? just wondering...

This is the "Standard" Gengar set already on the analysis, except upgraded for Platinum's metagame. I agree that this is different enough to warrant a new set. I have a question though: is Life Orb required? This Gengar would lose a lot of health trying to beat TTar and Scizor in a sandstorm, although I guess that is always better than losing everything to BP/Pursuit.

Also, why is it Hasty? Wouldn't you want that defense? I would personally make this Timid. edit: and apparently Havak would too >_<

 

[Legacy Raider]

This looks like a good set Aldaron, and you've shown it to work. My only issue would be - for scouting and taking out its counters, wouldn't a substitute gengar with HP Fire work better? With Protect, you are pretty screwed if Tyranitar Dragon Dances or Scizor Swords Dances while you waste the turn. Substitute serves other purposes as well, namely allowing Gengar to not fear Thunder Wave from things like Celebi, and scouts your opponent's Gengar counters, whereas Protect really just gives the opponent a free turn. With Sub, you can still elude CB Tyranitar as well as this set can. The only real thing that Protect will help against is a CB Scizor that tries to revenge kill you, as if you can get a sub up as CB Scizor switches in, the sub set will take it out too.

Also, Scarf Scizor? I'd remove that, and maybe just mention that while this set will outrun Infernape, because of the HP Fire speed drop, you will generally lose out against opposing Gengar and Latias.

Looks good though, but you might want to expand on why this set should be run over a sub set.

EDIT: Oh crap, 999th post, now I have to actually do something for my 1000th >_<

 

[twash]

While this set is specifically to take Pursuit Tyranitar out, I would still write a sentence or two on how Dragon Dance Tyranitar may grab a boost on the Protect and thus cause problems.

/edit: Legacy Raider beat me to it.

 

[Fuzznip]

This is a very intersting set for Gengar. Does the Gengar still perform well even if Scizor and/or Tyranitar are not on the opponents team?

You could mention that in the comments if you want.

 

[Aldaron]

I accidently put Hasty and edited in Timid like 2 seconds after...you guys are fast lol

 

[Gouki]

Protect lets you scout CB Scizor Bullet Punch, while Sub has to guess when Scizor comes in to revenge kill.

Edit: apparently I missed LR's post lol

 

[mien]

I don't see why protect is usefull for scouting against Tyranitar. According to Doug's statistics only 5% of T-tar actually carry SpD ev's so unless it is the rare scarftar(which is now even more rare thanks to Scizor) you can simply kill it with Focus Blast. Rather then using Protect to give your enemy a free oppurtunity to switch to Scizor for example.

I think you might as well delete the Tyranitar out of the second paragraph, nobody is going to scout T-tar if you can just kill it and risk a free switchin or like LR mentioned chance to set up.

 

[Caelum]

MYSTICgar ... you are gonna have to explain that one.

Anyway, nitpick shit.

Life Orb is necessary, as many Choice Band Tyranitar run a lot of Special Defense, and without Life Orb the OHKO with Focus Blast is non-existent

Isn't that annoying as fuck 252 HP / 216 SpD Careful spread designed to survive a Timid LO Focus Blast? Maybe just a parenthetical note about that spread allow Tyranitar to survive.

The EVs maximize Speed so that Gengar can both outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Scizor and Infernape and have a 50% chance of outspeeding other Hidden Power Fire Gengar.

I'd honestly just drop this line completely, it's honestly a pretty obviously spread and every Gengar has it. If you want to keep it though I really think you should drop the line about Choice Scarf Scizor since it's virtually non-existent (I don't believe I've honestly run into a single one nor seen someone run into one).

<p>Protect allows Gengar to defeat most versions of the two Pokemon that give it the most difficulty in the Platinum metagame:

We generally don't refer to a Platinum metagame. It's just "the metagame" etc.

Well, I can already tell this set works so that's not an issue. This looks a lot like the standard Gengar with Protect > Thunderbolt. My personal preference would be to just slash it and explain it in set comments. Aldaron already made his case and it's a decent one. So, I'd like to hear opinions from others on that. Is it "different enough" with Protect to warrant it's own slot?

 

[Aldaron]

I'm cool with slashing it if necessary so long as the slash explanation is clear about the advantages of using protect, and so long as UNlike most other slashes it doesn't "seem" like just a superfluous choice.

 

[Fuzznip]

I would say it is different. This type of Gengar runs a whole different purpose then the standard Gengar. This is designed to take out two common Gengar counters, but the other version is designed to sweep.

 

[MetaNite]

I agree with Legacy Raider that it is better to use Substitute on the switch-in. Letting Scizor or Tyanitar have a free turn of set up may end any hope you have of winning, especially if said Gengar is your last "check" against them.

I really don't like the fact that I only have a 70% chance of killing Tyranitar, which is the main purpose of this set. Hidden Power Fighting is probably preferable here, as it 2HKOes even 252 HP / 216 SpD Tyranitar in Sandstorm. And if you have a Sub up, you should get those 2 hits in unless Tyranitar had a Choice Scarf. It also makes this set vary a bit from the standard, otherwise there is just one move change or it is just like the SubGar set.

EDIT: True Sage, but you won't always beat more defensive versions. And it is not like Focus Blast's accuracy increases every time you use it; it just becomes more likely. I'd still rather not risk it when you don't have to.

However, forget this whole post because I just realized it makes no sense when you are using Hidden Power Fire :x

 

[Great Sage]

You're using a double standard there. If Gengar gets a Substitute in on the switch, then it has two chances to use Focus Blast, instead of one, and there's a 91% chance that at least one of them will hit. If it doesn't get a Substitute on the switch, then it has a 70% chance to beat Tyranitar, whereas it is guaranteed to die if it has Hidden Power Fighting.

Also, "so it can be different" is a horrible reason to add a move to a set.

 

[Scofield]

I agree with the previous posters as to the efficiency of substitute gengar over protect gengar. I have absolutely been begging someone to include sub special gengar in the analysis during BOTH of the previous 2 revamps and both times it went unheeded (stellar was going to write it I think before giving up the edit to twash who didn't). I was so fed up I was about to write it myself. Anyways, sub with lefties imo is much better for beating ttar and scizor. While the LO boost is nice for one hit, I'd always prefer to get in 2 hits with the help of a sub. If the main option were HP Fire, the speed IV must be lowered by 1, meaning that max speed isn't really needed, right? Is it viable to just drop speed down to 331 (outspeeding the infernape in the infernape analysis by 1 point)?

 

[Havak]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the effiency of Expert Belt as an alternative item yet, since I think it could fill this niche rather well. Sure, you're not guarenteed the OHKO on the 252 / 216 Careful Tyranitar by any means (but apparently neither is the Life Orb version), but as soon as you see the Leftovers recovery you can be sure that it's not Choice Band Tyranitar and likely will not carry Pursuit (but you can Substitute or Protect to make sure anyway).

Just for reference:

Careful 252 HP 216 SpD Tyranitar - 83.17% average damage with Expert Belt.

Not brilliant, but as already brought up I don't think this Tyranitar is all that common, and, as I already said, if you see Leftovers recovery and have already utilized Substitute or Protect, you're most likely safe anyway.

Let's just say Scizor has 252 HP EVs, since I'd say that's fairly common on CB Scizor now, if not it'll have some Speed EVs.

359 Atk vs 196 Def & 344 HP (70 Base Power): 441 - 523 (128.20% - 152.03%)

Pointless calc I know, but it shows that you can easily OHKO 252 HP Scizor with Expert Belt. You're generally going to be trying to score super effective hits with this Gengar, so Expert Belt seems the most logical.

However, I'm starting to side with people saying that Substitute is just better. Scofield has been ignored before about the special Substitute set, so I think we should be agreeing with him (I've only just really got involved with Gengar's edit, sorry for being a bit ignorant and not having my say lol). Although, at the same time I really think Protect is a perfectly viable alternative as already agreed upon by a few members.

[SET]
name: Scouter
move 1: Substitute / Protect
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Expert Belt / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

This might be a more logical solution, since it's basically the special version of the Substitute set that Scofield has been trying to forward, while it can still make note of Protect as a useful alternative if you don't want to lose 25% HP everytime you try to scout.

 

[Blue Kirby]

I suppose now I have to explain myself. I started using this set when I was after a Scizor (and to a somewhat lesser degree, Tyranitar) lure. People put the main reason for Gengar's decrease in usage as a result of Scizor, as odds are it will end up either eating a Bullet Punch or Pursuit, therefore being largely useless. I had seen Gengar run Hidden Power Fire on certain occasions up until Platinum's release, so I figured now was the time to make it useful once again.

I did like at using Substitute over Protect, but the latter has a few notable advantages:

• You can scout faster Pokemon (mostly Choice Scarf) even after they switch in. No matter how good you are, you can't Substitute against a Choice Scarf user coming in to revenge. Yeah, you can switch, but I prefer to scout beforehand. Then you can make an informed switch. This gives you space to predict outside of this situation too - if you didn't manage to put up a Substitute as a threatening Pokemon comes in, you're toast. There are always going to be times when you think you've got your opponent down, and then they'll surprise you with a late switch as you were about to KO their Pokemon, or so you thought.
• Once Substitute is revealed, if Gengar cannot KO the Pokemon it is facing, often the opponent will simply attack repeatedly as you try to Substitute. Each mistake costs you a quarter of your HP. I don't know about you guys, but I don't always get it right. No point hurting myself further because of it.
• Additionally, Life Orb can be used since you're not losing 25% HP to Substitute. If you're really worried about Sandstorm and the like, by all means, use Expert Belt, but I appreciate the power boost of Life Orb for getting in powerful neutral hits with Shadow Ball. You shouldn't be focusing on Tyranitar and Scizor solely when looking at this - yes, you don't beat Careful Tyranitar regardless, but you do get a noticeable boost in other matchups. You'll notice that Life Orb Gengar is the first set in our current analysis - it is the one of Gengar's most widely used sets for a reason.

I don't find the drop in Speed to be too troublesome. Sure, you don't speed tie with other Gengar and Latias, but I'm not one to rely on speed ties regardless. Plenty of Pokemon use Hidden Power Fire to the same effect and still operate effectively. When I was running this particular set, I did drop my Speed to 341, but I don't really see the point in trying to be "smart" about where your Speed sits because Gengar doesn't really have any natural bulk going for it.

Substitute has its advantages, sure, but it doesn't operate in the same way in this set having used both in my opinion. I'd prefer that it wasn't just "lumped" in with this set because they look similar - you should do some testing of your own before you say otherwise.

Oh, and MYSTICgar. When I first told Aldaron about this set, someone in #warau piped in that it was mysterious, and then it was changed again to MYSTICgar. I expressed my initial annoyance at the name, but now it's sort of grown on me as everybody insists on using it. Whatever you choose to call it, I'm not fussed. KirbyGar has a good ring to it though ... (just kidding!)

 

[Scofield]

Okay, BK is right, I should've tested this before labeling it as an "inferior sub gar" as it does serve a different purpose. After some light testing (~15 battles) I've formed some thoughts on it.

This set is viable, but mainly for the purposes that protect is viable on just about anything that learns it, being the great move that it is. Gengar uses it well enough, better than some, but is far from the best user of the move. The reason protect isn't seen too often is that most pokemon have better options, and Gengar has plenty of other options.

It helps against scizor and ttar: Protect only helps against scizor if scizor chooses anything other than bullet punch. If bp is selected, you'll have to switch out and you wouldn't get your scizor kill. Protect is also risky against ttar. If it dragon dances you're in trouble. If it's the careful ttar with lefties, when you scout to check for lefties, ttar is regaining 6% of its health. That 6% that ttar is getting back when you scout hurts your chances to net that ohko. The only pokemon it really helps to scout is CBtar, whom, maybe due to my personal play style, I'd attack right off the bat anyways before even knowing what type of tar it is, as I hate living in fear of a 30% chance of missing.

Scouting faster (mostly choice scarf) pokemon is rather nice and is the main draw of the moveset. With sub, you can still scout slower pokemon. Yeah, a mistake is going to cost you 25% of your health, but I'd just rather be sitting behind a sub on a +1 ttar than protect while letting it set up. Most choice scarf users do have that "one" pokemon that walls it in every way, such as heatran to jirachi. Of course, if you want to make an informed switch (always better than an uninformed switch) I'd have to agree that protect is a great option for this, I just don't always care for knowing exactly what the opponent is going to do.

Life orb gengar does hit pretty fucking hard, and I do miss the power that it has over sub gengar. The reason I stopped using it is that an incorrect prediction costs you 10% of your health. Yeah, a substitute misprediction costs you 25% of your health, but you immediately gain back 6% of it, meaning you only lose 19%, but with LO mispredictions you never gain any of it back. I just hate losing 10% of my health to do 20% to heatran with shadow ball or whatever (but next turn you do get to scout for a choice move). And this is before I mention standstorm or switching in on something light like infernape's grass knot or stealth rocks. LO gengar isn't too easily stalled out but it is possible, especially on stall.

Speed wise, I've decided that it is important to outspeed max speed infernape for any swords dance versions and 9 hp points wouldn't help as much as speed tie-ing with hp fire gengars and latias.

If you want to give this its own set in the analysis, that's fine, but sub gengar better be in there too, even if I have to write it myself.