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Gengar (Choice Scarf) [QC 3/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Tomahawk, May 9, 2012.

  1. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Thunderbolt
    move 4: Trick / Thunderbolt
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    - Gengar has several cool features which allows it to function well as a revenge killer; 110 base Speed lets it outspeed more stuff, mainly other Scarfers such as Terrakion, Latios (with HP Fire), +2 Gyarados (which Terrakion/Infernape can't), Modest Venusaur, and +2 Jolly/Naive Cloyster. Gengar is also immune to ExtremeSpeed (and Mach Punch) which lets it revenge kill Lucario unlike other Scarfers, and Trick is always cool.
    - Shadow Ball is a reliable STAB move which lets it revenge kill threats such as Starmie and Alakazam.
    - Focus Blast provides good coverage, and hits Tyranitar and Heatran hard.
    - Hidden Power Ice lets Gengar revenge kill Dragonite and Salamence reliably, which is cool considering Gengar outspeeds them both at +1 and is immune to ExtremeSpeed.
    - Trick in the last slot lets Gengar cripple bulkier Pokemon such as Blissey and Jirachi, and also lets Gengar avoid Sucker Punch.
    - Thunderbolt on the other hand provides more coverage against the likes of Skarmory and also lets Gengar revenge kill Gyarados reliably.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    - Destiny Bond lets Gengar take down anything if it threatens to be KOed, and works great along with Scarf boosting its Speed.
    - Hypnosis lets Gengar sleep something (60% of the time) which can stop something if Gengar can't KO it.
    - PURSUIT. Tyranitar and Scizor are this set's worst opponents, if you see them on the opposing team be very careful. Carry a good counter for them always, Terrakion is good for Tyranitar, Magnezone is also a really cool teammate as it can use Scizor's Pursuit to get to +6. Something that can lure in and KO Tyranitar and Scizor is also appreciated, Reuniclus/Tornadus can lure in Tyranitar and Jirachi can lure in Scizor. Lucario also makes a good partner as it can setup on (choiced) Pursuit.
    - This set can be easily walled by the likes of Jirachi, Blissey and Dragonite, though they need to beware of Trick and Hidden Power Ice for the latter. A partner that can deal with special walls is recommended, and Terrakion or Mamoswine are good options for that. Terrakion also counters Tyranitar.
  2. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent ium and me <3
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    I love Scarf Gengar, I've used it extensively so I can vouch for it. I think that Destiny Bond and Sludge Bomb deserve AC mentions, as the former practically guarantees a KO on stuff like Pursuit users, or simply really bulky/powerful stuff that Gengar can't outright KO. Sludge Bomb deserves a mention because it's Gengar's most powerful special move, and can nab kills on stuff like Breloom. Shadow Ball's better super effective coverage does obviously make it a better STAB move most of the time.
  3. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Sludge Wave, not Bomb. Sludge Bomb is physical.

    EDIT: Don't listen to me, I'm retarded. 'Twas thinking Poison Jab/Seed Bomb.
  4. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Thanks a lot for the suggestions Cherub Agent, I've implemented them!

    @Lord of Bays: no, you're wrong. Sludge Bomb is special.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Scarf Gengar is annoying... it catches my Starmie by surprise :(

    Gengar outruns Modest Chloro Venusaur and +2 Jolly / Naive Cloyster, which are important to note.

    Personally, I think HP Ice > Thunderbolt, since otherwise Gengar cannot OHKO Dragonite and Salamence, which are more prevalent threats to check than Gyarados.

    HP Ice / Thunderbolt
    Trick / Thunderbolt

    imo
  6. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Thanks for the advice Pocket, I've implemented those changes!
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I don't like Sludge Bomb on this set - Gengar just doesn't have the spare moveslot to fit it in ever, and Sludge Bomb doesn't help kill anything notable (well Breloom and Virizion I guess). It doesn't help that most of Gengar's counters (Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Tentacruel) all resist its Poison STAB. I'll remove it from AC. Hypnosis may be a better AC option to put a Gengar counter / check to sleep.

    Otherwise, this analysis looks good to me.

    QC Approved (1/3)
  8. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    I think HP Ice should be the first slash and not TBolt, sure revenge killing Gyara at +2 is cool, but being able to reliably revenge kill DDNite as well as DD/Scarf Mence and Scarf Landy seems much more important to me. The 65% chance to OHKO Skarmory after SR is cool, but Focus Blast is also a solid 2HKO and most of the time Skarmory will simply switch out when it sees Gengar

    Edit: Ninja'd by Pocket
  9. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Thanks for the approval Pocket! I've removed Sludge Bomb and added Hypnosis as well.
  10. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    I think psychic should e mentioned in the additional comments, since it gives you a much more solid hit on most fighting types. For example, you don't have to rely on focus blast to take out terrakion. As an aside it also does more damage to venusaur (afaik).
  11. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
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    Yeah, I've played with this set a lot in 4th gen. Its pretty solid in 5th.

    Here are my notes:

    Psychic probably does not deserve an Oo mention primarily because it leaves you extremely vulnerable to Tyranitar, whi will just screw you with Pursuit. Focus Blast hits Terrakion as well as rocking Ttar and doing a decent amount of damage to Scizor.

    Terrakion + Magnezone make fantastic partners for this set. The former demolishes special walls that annoy gengar, while the latter shit stomps on Scizor / Ferrothorn who begin to eat you up once realizing that you are choiced.
  12. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Wait a second, there isn't a choice scarf set on site already? Damn, you'd think this would be a no brainer. Guess it just goes to show we still have work to do eh?

    Anyway, just want to quickly point out Hypnosis has 60% accuracy, not 55% (nitpicking but we don't want bad info going on site right?). I also really don't like the idea of getting locked into Destiny Bond or Hypnosis, as they give the opponent opportunities to set up but they certainly can have use. Destiny Bond in particular catches my fancy, as it's not something people see coming and can easily remove a key member from their team... assuming your prediction skills are sharp of course.

    Also I'm so happy someone other than me mentioned Mamoswine as a partner, everyone seems to forget about him for some reason despite the fact he kicks major ass. Get's owned by Scizor and has difficulty switching in, true, but still. ASS.

    Speaking of Scizor, I have a bit of an issue with this point here:
    The issue I have with this isn't that those Pokemon don't counter those two (they do) it's that the don't solve the issue. It doesn't matter if you can switch out to them from Gengar and counter the pursuiter, Gengar still dies. And if you bring those in against the pursuiter in question earlier in the match, they'll just switch out and come back to haunt Gengar later (haunting the ghost, damn they're good!). I mean, no one in their right mind is going to keep Tyranitar in on Terrakion or Scizor in on Gyarados. No, what you need are LURES, and thankfully both of those Pokemon have convenient 4x weaknesses to capitalize on. Expert Belt Jirachi makes a good lure for Scizor, and Tornadus is spectacular at luring in and KOing Ttar with Brick Break (best used in rain otherwise experience players will expect it). Celebi is a decent Scizor lure against inexperienced players, but HP Fire is common enough more experienced players will know better. There are probably better lures than this available but again, I'm too tired to think straight. I just know that Gyarados and Terrakion aren't going to be stopping Gengar from getting pursuit trapped any time soon.
  13. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Perhaps you could also AC mention hidden power fire as an option to help deal with this scizor problem. Hidden power Ice is generally better, but with the scarf gengar could actually lure scizor in and ko it quickly.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    To continue on the point Jimera started, maybe mention pokes that can set-up on the CB locked Pursuit of Scizor, and on the choice locked or not of Ttar, such as Terrakion, Lucario and Conkeldurr.
  15. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Magnezone is also worth a mention for setting up to +6 on Choice-locked Scizor and trapping it and killing it, as well as trapping and killing other steel-types that would easily switch into Gengar's STAB.
  16. zdrup15

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    I agree with the mention of lure Jirachi for the 2 Pursuitters and also talk a bit about Woodchuck's suggestion (Scizor either BPs or Pursuits this set so Zone can set up freely and do ridiculous damage if played right).

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  17. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Thanks for the approval zdrup and thanks for the suggestions everyone! I've implemented most suggestions.
  18. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
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    Life was alot easier before you posted this, I've been screwed over by it three times today :P Anyway it's a great set and I've no idea why it wasn't on site already.
  19. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Bump for final QC check.

    edit:
    17:09 Tomahawk earthworm|afk can you qc check scarf gar now?
    17:10 Earthworm|AFK just say i approved it
    17:13 Tomahawk okay
  20. Gone to the beach

    Gone to the beach

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    I think you should make a note in IVs if your using HP ice. You want 31/30/30/31/31/31 instead of the 31/31/31/31/31/30 so you can outspeed hp fire latios/latias.
  21. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    One thing before I write this up: thoughts on an AC mention of Icy Wind. It's basically Hidden Power Ice with less power and accuracy, but has an advantage of lowering Speed. Is this worth an AC mention? It's worth noting that it doesn't always KO bulky DD Dragonite after Stealth Rock, nor offensive Dragonite if its Multiscale has been broken by something other than Stealth Rock.
  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    For the reasons you stated (not to mention that Gengar is already swimming in a imaginary pool of speed), NO.
  23. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Fuck you, pay me
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    Thanks. I'll start writing this now.
  24. dice

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    Icy Wind could be used if you want HP Grass to hit Gastrodon... lol..
  25. Garganator

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    Actually in Gen 4 Ubers Choice Scarf Gengar used to run Icy Wind AND Hidden Power Fire to make sure he can check/revenge kill both steels and dragons and actually in Gen 5 OU it may work as well taking into account how many of them are x4 weak to Fire and Ice. Although not sure if Icy Wind is strong enough to KO Dragonite (against Salamence it's strong enough). IMO I would mention a possibility of using Icy Wind and HP Fire in OO at least.

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