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Gengar [full revamp] (Stage 1)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by kd24, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    mcmeghan, cbb, dekzeh, sir, badass, marcelodk, and eventually floppy helped me perfect these sets and spreads.

    im sorry but i have to add this in as well: whoever wrote the last analysis did not do much research at all. whether it be inaccuracies about damage output (like explosion vs lax), no sense of what pokemon can do (im sorry but adamant dugtrio does not beat starmie) and just a sense of laziness this was really sloppy. i have removed inaccuracies, removed some of the pretentiousness and hopefully made this actually accurate

    I left perish trap alone because i see it a lot and i dunno what id fix


    [Overview]

    <p>Gengar is a very powerful threat due to its great stats and diversity, and its vast movepool is aided by its high Special Attack and Speed. Though held back by its awful defenses, Gengar will often have multiple opportunities to switch in safely thanks to immunities to Ground-, Fighting-, and Normal-type attacks. Because of its versatility and great coverage, Gengar is very difficult to properly counter once it is on the offensive. Gengar also has a wide variety of support moves at its disposal, ranging from status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis, to Destiny Bond and Perish Song. Gengar can easily clean up late-game when teams have been weakened and opposing Pokemon are in KO range of its potent attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Taunt / Hypnosis / Fire Punch
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 24 SpA / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set combines Gengar's great coverage with a variety of support moves to cripple Pokemon that normally switch into it. Thunderbolt and Ice Punch create a pseudo-BoltBeam combination, which hits all but dedicated special walls for huge damage. Will-O-Wisp puts a lot of pressure on the opponent right from the start, threatening Metagross, Snorlax, and other Pokemon who would normally try to harm Gengar.</p>

    <p>A ton of choices are available in the last slot. Taunt stops Blissey, non-Psychic Celebi, and allows Gengar to take down more defensive teams by himself. Hypnosis allows Gengar to put one Pokemon to sleep and essentially render it useless; its terrible accuracy is its main drawback though. Fire Punch can take on opposing Forretress and allows Gengar to actually beat Magneton. It can also be used vs threats like Metagross and Jirachi in a pinch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>188 Speed EVs and a Timid nature let Gengar outrun the likes of Timid Celebi, Jolly Flygon, and +1 Tyranitar, while HP EVs allow it to survive a +1 Hidden Power Flying from Salamence. The remaining EVs are invested in Special Attack to pump up Gengar's damage output.</p>

    <p>Blissey takes pathetic damage from Gengar's attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave, as well as heal burned or sleeping teammates with Aromatherapy. Celebi is 3HKOed by Ice Punch, but can Recover off damage, set up with Calm Mind, and OHKO Gengar with Psychic; to top it all off, neither of these Pokemon are crippled by status due to Natural Cure. Starmie and Raikou can easily switch in on Ice Punch and Thunderbolt respectively, then outspeed and KO Gengar. Dugtrio can trap and kill some of these threats.</p>

    <p>Taunt can turn the tables on some of Gengar's most common counters, such as Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Gengar should attempt to burn these Pokemon as they switch in, then when they attempt to use a recovery or status move, Taunt them to prevent it, and switch to an appropriate counter or attempt to finish them off. The effectiveness of this strategy is a lot greater if you have Spikes support and sandstorm to wear down the aforementioned Pokemon's HP. Destiny Bond can also be used in conjunction with Taunt to force the opponent to use an attacking move, thus taking the foe down when Gengar is KOed.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Giga Drain / Hypnosis / Explosion
    move 4: Fire Punch / Hypnosis / Explosion
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>High Speed and Special Attack stats as well as a great movepool make Gengar an excellent all-out attacker. This set sacrifices support moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis to gain the widest possible coverage against common Pokemon. With perfect neutral coverage, this is an anti-metagame set that is effective against teams that play off resistances. Thunderbolt hits Skarmory and bulky Water-types such as Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon, whereas Ice Punch nails Zapdos and Celebi for around 40%, and OHKOes the common Dragon-types. Giga Drain nails Swampert, who shrugs off Gengar's other attacks and 2HKOes it with Hydro Pump. As Swampert is a sometimes a reliable check to Gengar, you can finish off unprepared teams who don't expect it. Fire Punch, Gengar's last move, allows it to OHKO some Forretress, and 2HKO some Magneton and Metagross. Hypnosis can eliminate a threat if it hits which makes it a great move for a Gengar focused on sweeping. Finally, Explosion could be used in one of the final slots as a way to deal with Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Use a Hasty or Naive nature and 36 Attack EVs with Explosion to make sure Dugtrio is guaranteed to finish off Blissey and Snorlax afterwards.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is very straightforward: 216 Speed EVs beat Adamant Dugtrio while 40 HP helps vs Aerodactyl and other random attacks. Maximize Gengar's Special Attack to ensure a high damage output. A Timid nature is advised to make Gengar as fast as possible, but a Modest nature can be used to increase Gengar's power even further, if you don't mind losing to opposing Gengar. If using Modest, just use max Special Attack and Speed for Houndoom.</p>

    <p>As Gengar lacks Will-O-Wisp, Tyranitar can be a problem, as it doesn't take much from Gengar's attacks. Starmie can switch in on a predicted Ice Punch or Fire Punch, then outspeed and KO Gengar with Psychic. Gengar is not OHKOed by any of its other attacks though, and can finish it off with Thunderbolt if it doesn't carry Psychic. Raikou is also problematic as it outspeeds Gengar and has access to Calm Mind. As such, Dugtrio makes a reliable teammate, because it can eliminate Raikou and +1 Tyranitar. Defensive variants of Zapdos and Celebi cause further problems for Gengar, taking about 40% from super effective moves while doing serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt and Psychic, respectively. Tyranitar can be used to assist Gengar's team against Zapdos, while Dugtrio can switch in on a Recovering Celebi and 2HKO with Hidden Power Bug.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Perish Trapper
    move 1: Mean Look
    move 2: Perish Song
    move 3: Substitute / Taunt
    move 4: Destiny Bond / Protect / Hypnosis
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 80 SpD / 80 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Perish Trapping Gengar is often unexpected and can turn the tables on typical Gengar counters. The idea of the set is to use Mean Look as a Gengar counter such as Blissey or Snorlax switches in and trap it, then use Perish Song to KO it. Substitute effectively provides free turns at the cost of a quarter of Gengar's HP. After two turns, Gengar switches to an appropriate switch-in, scoring a free KO on the trapped opponent. Destiny Bond is used in the final moveslot to let Gengar take out another Pokemon after successfully Perish Trapping something. It should only be used as a last resort, such as when Gengar has lost most of its HP from making Substitutes. Taunt can be used instead of Substitute to stop attempts at crippling Gengar with status moves or phazing it, but Protect must then be used in the final moveslot as Gengar needs free turns to pull off the strategy. Hypnosis is an alternative to put the trapped Pokemon to sleep, rendering it useless as Perish Song takes effect. However, its low accuracy makes it a risky option.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This bulky EV spread allows Gengar to survive dangerous moves such as Celebi's Psychic and Choice Band Salamence's Hidden Power Flying, as Gengar is vulnerable while it sets up Perish Song. With 80 Speed EVs and a Timid nature, Gengar has over 300 Speed, allowing it to outspeed a vast number of Pokemon and use Substitute to provide free turns for itself. Its Speed stat should not be maximized though, because bulk is this set's main priority.</p>

    <p>For the purposes of trapping, Dugtrio makes an excellent teammate because of its Arena Trap ability. Dugtrio can reliably trap and KO Pokemon with Perish Song if Gengar is KOed before Perish Song has fully taken effect. However, Dugtrio will need the otherwise slightly gimmicky Substitute or Protect in its movepool. Dugtrio can also assist against Starmie, Raikou, and Dragon Dance Tyranitar, all of which are problematic for Gengar.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Choice Band Gengar is a gimmicky option, but an option nonetheless, as it has two strong physical STAB attacks in Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball. This set can do serious damage to Pokemon that normally counter Gengar, as Blissey and Snorlax are nailed by Focus Punch, and Celebi by Sludge Bomb. Once the opponent discovers the set, however, Gengar can be easily countered and will often end up resorting to Explosion quite quickly. Shadow Ball used to be a common move for dispatching of Celebi and other Gengar. Sludge Bomb is the only other physical move worth using on Gengar, as it dents Blissey for about 25-30% and has a chance to poison. This will force Blissey to resort to using Softboiled, which is when Gengar can hit her with Focus Punch for the 2HKO. Gengar can run a mixed set with both special and physical attacks, but this would be less effective overall due to the split EVs. Additionally, it would run into serious issues with Metagross and Jirachi, and is generally not effective in this metagame.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Blissey can come in on most Gengar sets with ease; special attacks do virtually nothing to it, and Natural Cure makes status moves ineffective. That said, it is usually wise to switch out to a sleep absorber on Hypnosis to activate Sleep Clause. Curse + Rest Snorlax can set up on Gengar without fear of Will-O-Wisp; the standard RestTalk Regice is a solid Gengar counter as well. Both should watch out for Taunt. RestTalk Magneton can handle Gengar that aren't using Fire Punch. Teams that use resistances to defend against strong special attackers will often have to figure out or guess Gengar's set first, as it is very versatile.</p>

    <p>With some careful playing, Calm Zapdos will usually be able to switch in; Ice Punch deals considerable damage, but Gengar will usually lose one-on-one. Celebi can take on Gengar well thanks to Recover and Calm Mind, as Gengar won't usually risk staying in and taking Psychic. Jirachi works in a similar way, except it takes less damage from Thunderbolt than Celebi takes from Ice Punch. With maximum HP and some Special Defense investment, Pokemon like Metagross and Tyranitar can reliably shut Gengar down. Tyranitar will also be able to trap and eliminate Gengar with Pursuit. However, both Metagross and Tyranitar have to watch be cautious of Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>Raikou is a good counter too, because it doesn't take much damage from Thunderbolt or Ice Punch, and can outspeed and do around serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt; it should be wary of an incoming Hypnosis or Will-O-Wisp though. Rest + Sleep Talk Raikou, though situational, is a hard counter to Gengar. Dusclops is in the same boat; Rest + Sleep Talk sets will easily switch in on Gengar, but the Pain Split variant should watch out for status.</p>
  2. dekzeh

    dekzeh The caretaker of sin
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    That looks weird, how Metagross is mentioned twice. Also mention on how, again, both dislike Will-o-Wisp (even special Tyranitar doesnt like it).
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    fixed and fixed
  4. adv

    adv

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    I wouldn't say that Swampert is such a common Gar switch-in due to the prevalence of Giga Drain and status. If Swampert is your best Gar counter, then your team has a Gar problem.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I'd give an OO mention of Thunder so Gengar can actually dent stuff like +1 Suicune, Metagross on the switch, etc.

    Also AC mention that Mean Look can be used on the Offensive set to trap a special sponge to Explode, etc.

    Concerning the same offensive set, you'd want to slash Timid / Hasty, since you don't want to nerf Explosion's power. You can mention Modest and Mild under AC. Possibly suggest a benchmark Atk EVs for Explosion, too.
  6. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i changed this to make it more accurate that pert could "check" some gengars and that an unprepared team would struggle

    pocket i mentioned hasty/naive in the offensive set. you dont want nature slashitis as modest is much better than those options first and foremost. i think thunder is actually very poor on gengar. ill mention mean look in OO as an option on offensive sets
  7. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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    Sub is pretty poor on the perish trapper from my experience. the most common perish trapper set is hypnosis + protect. torment + protect is also pretty good on perish trap and i think it deserves an ac mention, maybe.

    edit
    celebi doesnt ohko defensive gar. im not even sure if fully offensive celebi can ohko
  8. dekzeh

    dekzeh The caretaker of sin
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    If you pay attention he says Celebi can Calm Mind up and then OHKO Gengar, which is true.
  9. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i removed scizor's mention per request of sir as its never used

    lets talk about perish song soon because i literally have 0 experience with it and no one really wanted to talk about it today
  10. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    If you're going to mention Hasty / Mild in AC then you should move Explosion to AC. It's just common sense C&C protocol - if you slash a move that requires a corresponding Nature, then that corresponding Nature should be slashed. You can't slash Explosion and have its corresponding Nature not on the set.

    This is what I'm suggesting:

    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Giga Drain / Hypnosis / Explosion
    move 4: Fire Punch / Hypnosis / Explosion
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Hasty
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

    There's no slashitis, as seen above.

    AC mention: Modest / Mild - as you can see you have +Spe Natures indicated on the main set with the alternative +SpA Natures under AC.

    Also please be more specific about what Gengar survives with 40 HP EVs, because otherwise speed-tying with opposing Gengar would be more crucial. In fact, I found those 40 EVs more AC-worthy than as the main EV spread.
  11. cookie

    cookie Adominnustrata
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    RestTalk+Curse leaves no room for a move that can damage Gengar, which leaves it open to being stalled out.
  12. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    smh idk who wrote the old analysis but fixed now, thanks cookie
  13. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    in the words of mcmeghan, never assume everything is at 100% as it helps for taking any random hit better, so speed tying with gengar shouldn't be the priority, the only reason to run max speed. its hard to convey this in analysis and leads to pointless max max sets that we've been discussing over irc.

    i dunno if its against official c+c policy but i really dislike the corresponding nature slashes if one isn't ideal in the case of 3+ usable natures and so i dont believe in making that change. some users look at the analysis without reading set comments and in that case, id rather have the 2 best natures available to them. just from a common sense approach, you'd want to know it runs timid or modest primarily. the way natures are set up it makes it seem like "either one works". that isnt the case here with the primary moves of gengar - instead, naive or hasty ONLY go with explosion which is all the way back as a third slash. it's much easier to explain in set comments that hasty or naive go with explosion rather than deny users the privilege of knowing that modest is usable as well. 3-4 slashes is just sloppy as well.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    In a sense, McMeghan's words support my point - Gengar needs to be at full-health to survive CB HP Bird from Aerodactyl. If Gengar's not at max health, then the extra bulk wont help it check Aerodactyl locked into HP Fly.

    I guess it's a question of which you value more: The ability to survive Aerodactyl's STAB Hidden Power at full-health or the reliance in outrunning most Gengar (or speed tie at worst)? IMO, Gengar shouldn't be risking tanking any hits from Aerodactyl anyways, especially since its strongest move Rock Slide has a chance to kill it despite the extra HP reinforcement. Also, I find Gengar vs Gengar scenarios to play out frequently, and I have lost handful of them because of being slower than the opposing Gengar.

    Leave tanking hits to the bulky set, and go max / max on Gengar, imo. We don't arbitrarily slap HP EVs on sweepers to survive Surfs at 57% rather than 56%, and I don't find the specific Aerodactyl's case to be relevant enough for Gengar to underspeed opposing Gengar, a much more prevalent and dangerous threat than Aerodactyl, you have to admit.

    This is exactly why we need to either slash Hasty or Naive (and drop Modest to prevent slashitis) or drop Explosion to AC. Otherwise, people who do not bother reading the set comments would think that Explosion would be okay with -Atk Nature, which is NOT the message that we want send.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Well kd24, apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that the slashed natures should be Timid / Naive with Modest / Mild mentioned in AC. Here are the convos with 3 other people in our group that agree with my stance.

    I assumed you were so adamant because it was an unanimous decision, but apparently it isn't; please re-consider your choice of natures for offensive Gengar.
  16. Ojama

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    To be honest, I'm agreeing with Pocket on this point. Explosion is probably much more important than hypnosis on this set so it seems normal to have Hasty slashed. In addition, people are sometimes too lazy to read the analysis and only check the evs spread + nature so I would slash Hasty to be honest.
  17. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
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  18. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Where is the Sub/Focus Punch/Ice Punch/Thunderbolt set? I have seen this way more than the perish trapper (and used to a better extent as well).
  19. Jukain

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    diff (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Gengar is a very powerful threat due to its great stats (most notably Special Attack and Speed), (AC) diversity, and its vast movepool is aided by its high Special Attack and Speed.. [redundant, moved] Though held back by its awful defenses, Gengar will often have multiple opportunities to switch in safely thanks to immunities to Ground-, Fighting-, and Normal-type attacks. Because of its versatility and great coverage, Gengar is very difficult to properly counter once it is on the offensive. Gengar also has a wide variety of support moves at its disposal, ranging from status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis, to Destiny Bond and Perish Song. Gengar can easily clean up late-game when teams have been weakened and opposing Pokemon are in KO range of its potent attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Taunt / Hypnosis / Fire Punch
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 24 SpA / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set combines Gengar's great coverage with a variety of support moves to cripple Pokemon that normally switch into it. [might be just me, but this is a weird thing to mention on the first ("standard") set] Thunderbolt and Ice Punch create a pseudo-BoltBeam combination, which hits all but dedicated special walls for huge damage. Will-O-Wisp puts a lot of pressure on the opponent right from the start, threatening Metagross, Snorlax, and other Pokemon whothat [Metagross is genderless] would normally try to harm Gengar.</p>

    <p>A ton of choices are available in the last slot. Taunt stops Blissey, non-Psychic Celebi, and allows Gengar to take down more defensive teams by himself. Hypnosis allows Gengar to put one Pokemon to sleep and essentially render it useless; its terrible accuracy is its main drawback though. Fire Punch callows Gengar to take on opposing Forretress and allows Gengar to actually beat Magneton. It can also be used versus threats likesuch as Metagross and Jirachi in a pinch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>188 Speed EVs and a Timid nature let Gengar outrun the likes of Timid Celebi, Jolly Flygon, and +1 Tyranitar, while the HP EVs allow it to survive a +1 Hidden Power Flying from Salamence. The remaining EVs are invested in Special Attack to pump up Gengar's damage output.</p>

    <p>Blissey takes pathetic damage from Gengar's attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave, as well as heal burned orand sleeping teammates with Aromatherapy. Celebi is 3HKOed by Ice Punch,(RC) but can Recover off damage, set up with Calm Mind, and OHKO Gengar with Psychic; to top it all off, neither of these Pokemon are crippled by status due to Natural Cure. Starmie and Raikou can easily switch in on Ice Punch and Thunderbolt respectively, and then outspeed and KO Gengar. Dugtrio can trap and kill some of these threats.</p>

    <p>Taunt can turn the tables on some of Gengar's most common counters, such as Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Gengar should attempt to burn these Pokemon as they switch in, then when they attempt to and use Taunt to prevent them from useing a recovery or status move, Taunt them to prevent it, and; (semi) you should then switch to an appropriate counter or attempt to finish them off. [badly worded] The effectiveness of this strategy is a lot greater if you have Spikes support and sandstorm to wear down the aforementioned Pokemon's HP. Destiny Bond can also be used in conjunction with Taunt to force the opponent to use an attacking move, thus taking the foe down when Gengar is KOed.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Giga Drain / Hypnosis / Explosion
    move 4: Fire Punch / Hypnosis / Explosion
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>High Speed and Special Attack stats as well as a great movepool make Gengar an excellent all-out attacker. This set sacrifices support moves, (AC) such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis, (AC) to gain the widest possible coverage against common Pokemon. With perfect neutral coverage, this is an anti-metagame set that is effective against teams that play off resistances. Thunderbolt hits Skarmory and bulky Water-types, (AC) such as Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon, whereas Ice Punch nails Zapdos and Celebi for around 40%, and OHKOes the common Dragon-types. Giga Drain nails Swampert, who shrugs off Gengar's other attacks and 2HKOes it with Hydro Pump. As Swampert is a sometimesgenerally a reliable check to Gengar, you can finish off unprepared teams whothat don't expect itSwampert to falter. Fire Punch, Gengar's last move, allows it to OHKO some Forretress,(RC) and 2HKO some Magneton and Metagross. Hypnosis can eliminate a threat if it hits which, (AC) makesing it a great move for a Gengar focused on sweeping. Finally, Explosion could be used in one of the final slots as a way to deal with Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Use a Hasty or Naive nature and 36 Attack EVs with Explosion to make sure Dugtrio is guaranteed to finish off Blissey and Snorlax afterwards.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is very straightforward:; (semi) 216 Speed EVs beatallow Gengar to outrun Adamant Dugtrio, (AC) while 40 HP EVs helps vs against Aerodactyl and otherin taking random attacks. Maximize Gengar's Special Attack is maximized to ensure a high damage output. A Timid nature is advised to make Gengar as fast as possible, but a Modest nature can be used to increase Gengar's power even further,(RC) if you don't mind losing to opposing Gengar. If using Modest, just use max Special Attack and Speed, (AC) the latter of which is for Houndoom.</p>

    <p>As Gengar lacks Will-O-Wisp, Tyranitar can be a problem, as it doesn't take much from Gengar's attacks. Starmie can switch in on a predicted Ice Punch or Fire Punch, thenproceeding to outspeed and KO Gengar with Psychic. Gengar is not OHKOed by any of its other attacks though,(RC) and can finish itStarmie off with Thunderbolt if it doesn't carry Psychic. Raikou is also problematic, (AC) as it outspeeds Gengar and has access to Calm Mind. As such, Dugtrio makes a reliablegood teammate, becau; (semi) it can eliminate Raikou and +1 Tyranitar. Defensive variants of Zapdos and Celebi cause further problems for Gengar, taking about 40% from super effective moves while doing serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt and Psychic, respectively. Tyranitar can be used to assist Gengar's team against Zapdos, while Dugtrio can switch in on a Recovering Celebi and 2HKO with Hidden Power Bug.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Perish Trapper
    move 1: Mean Look
    move 2: Perish Song
    move 3: Substitute / Taunt
    move 4: Destiny Bond / Protect / Hypnosis
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 80 SpD / 80 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Perish Trapping Gengar is often unexpected and can turn the tables on Gengar's typical Gengar counters. The idea of the set is to use Mean Look as a Gengar counter, (AC) such as Blissey or Snorlax, (AC) switches in and trap it, then use and stall it out with Perish Song for tohe KO it.. [wording is misleading] Substitute effectively provides free turns at the cost of a quarter of Gengar's HP. After two turns, Gengar switches to an appropriate switch-in to the opposing Pokemon, scoring a free KO on the trapped opponent. Destiny Bond is used in the final moveslot to let Gengar take out another Pokemon after successfully Perish Trapping something. It should only be used as a last resort, such as when Gengar has lost most of its HP from making Substitutes. Taunt can be used instead of Substitute to stop attempts at crippling Gengar with status moves or phazing it, but Protect must then be used in the final moveslot, (AC) as Gengar needs free turns to pull off the strategy. Hypnosis is an alternative to put the trapped Pokemon to sleep, rendering it useless as Perish Song takes effect. However, its low accuracy makes it a risky option.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This bulky EV spread allows Gengar to survive dangerous moves, (AC) such as Celebi's Psychic and Choice Band Salamence's Hidden Power Flying, which is needed because Gengar is vulnerable while it usets up Perish Song. With 80 Speed EVs and a Timid nature, Gengar has over 300 Speed, allowing it to outspeed a vast number of Pokemon and use Substitute to provide free turns for itself. Its Speed stat should not be maximized though,(RC) because bulk is this set's main priority.</p>

    <p>For the purposes of trapping, Dugtrio makes an excellent teammate because of its Arena Trap ability. Dugtrio can reliably trap and KO Pokemon with Perish Song if Gengar is KOed before Perish Song has fully taken effect. However, Dugtrio will need to carry the otherwise slightly gimmicky Substitute or Protect in its movepoolto succeed. Dugtrio can also assist against Starmie, Raikou, and Dragon Dance Tyranitar, all of which are problematic for Gengar.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Choice Band Gengar is a gimmicky option,(RC) but an option nonetheless, as itGengar has access to two strong physical STAB attacks in Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball. This set can do serious damage to Pokemon that normally counter Gengar, as Blissey and Snorlax are nailed by Focus Punch,(RC) and Celebi by Sludge Bomb. Once the opponent discovers the set, however, Gengar can be easily countered and will often end up resorting to Explosion quite quickly. Shadow Ball used to be a common move for dispatching of Celebi and other Gengar. Sludge Bomb is the only other physical move worth using on Gengar, as it dentshits [weird word here] Blissey for about 25-30% and has a chance to poison the foe. This will force Blissey to resort to using Softboiled, which is when Gengar can hit her with Focus Punch for the 2HKO. Gengar can run a mixed set with both special and physical attacks, but this would be less effective overall due to the split EVs. Additionally, it would run into serious issues with Metagross and Jirachi, and overall is generally not effective in this metagame.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Blissey can come in on most Gengar sets with ease; special attacks do virtually nothing to it, and Natural Cure makes status moves ineffective. That said, it is usually wise to switch out to a sleep absorber on Hypnosis to activate Sleep Clause. Curse + Rest Snorlax can set up on Gengar without fear of Will-O-Wisp; the standard RestTalk Regice is a solid Gengar counter as well. Both should watch out for Taunt, (AC) however. RestTalk Magneton can handle Gengar that aren't using Fire Punch. Teams that use resistances to defend against strong special attackers will often have to figure out or guess Gengar's set first, as it is very versatile.</p>

    <p>With some careful playing, Calm Zapdos will usually be able to switch into Gengar; Ice Punch deals considerable damage, but Gengar will usually lose one-on-one. Celebi can take on Gengar well thanks to Recover and Calm Mind, as Gengar won't usually risk staying in and taking Psychic. Jirachi works in a similar way, except it takes less damage from Thunderbolt than Celebi takes from Ice Punch. With maximum HP and some Special Defense investment, Pokemon likesuch as Metagross and Tyranitar can reliably shut Gengar down. Tyranitar will also be able t can also trap and eliminate Gengar with Pursuit. However, both Metagross and Tyranitar have to watch be cautious of Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>Raikou is a good counter too, because it doesn't take much damage from Thunderbolt or Ice Punch, and can outspeed and do around serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt; it should be wary of an incoming Hypnosis or Will-O-Wisp though. Rest + Sleep Talk Raikou, though situational, is a hard counter to Gengar. Dusclops is in the same boat; Rest + Sleep Talk sets willcan easily switch in on Gengar, but the Pain Split variant should watch out for status.</p>

    c/p (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Gengar is a very powerful threat due to its great stats (most notably Special Attack and Speed), diversity, and vast movepool. Though held back by its awful defenses, Gengar will often have multiple opportunities to switch in safely thanks to immunities to Ground-, Fighting-, and Normal-type attacks. Because of its versatility and great coverage, Gengar is very difficult to properly counter once it is on the offensive. Gengar also has a wide variety of support moves at its disposal, ranging from status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis, to Destiny Bond and Perish Song. Gengar can easily clean up late-game when teams have been weakened and opposing Pokemon are in KO range of its potent attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Will-O-Wisp
    move 4: Taunt / Hypnosis / Fire Punch
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 24 SpA / 188 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set combines Gengar's great coverage with a variety of support moves to cripple Pokemon that normally switch into it. Thunderbolt and Ice Punch create a pseudo-BoltBeam combination, which hits all but dedicated special walls for huge damage. Will-O-Wisp puts a lot of pressure on the opponent right from the start, threatening Metagross, Snorlax, and other Pokemon that would normally try to harm Gengar.</p>

    <p>A ton of choices are available in the last slot. Taunt stops Blissey, non-Psychic Celebi, and allows Gengar to take down more defensive teams by himself. Hypnosis allows Gengar to put one Pokemon to sleep and essentially render it useless; its terrible accuracy is its main drawback. Fire Punch allows Gengar to take on opposing Forretress and Magneton. It can also be used versus threats such as Metagross and Jirachi in a pinch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>188 Speed EVs and a Timid nature let Gengar outrun the likes of Timid Celebi, Jolly Flygon, and +1 Tyranitar, while the HP EVs allow it to survive a +1 Hidden Power Flying from Salamence. The remaining EVs are invested in Special Attack to pump up Gengar's damage output.</p>

    <p>Blissey takes pathetic damage from Gengar's attacks and can cripple it with Thunder Wave, as well as heal burned and sleeping teammates with Aromatherapy. Celebi is 3HKOed by Ice Punch but can Recover off damage, set up with Calm Mind, and OHKO Gengar with Psychic; to top it all off, neither of these Pokemon are crippled by status due to Natural Cure. Starmie and Raikou can easily switch in on Ice Punch and Thunderbolt respectively and then outspeed and KO Gengar. Dugtrio can trap and kill some of these threats.</p>

    <p>Taunt can turn the tables on some of Gengar's most common counters, such as Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Gengar should attempt to burn these Pokemon as they switch in and use Taunt to prevent them from using a recovery or status move; you should then switch to an appropriate counter or attempt to finish them off. The effectiveness of this strategy is a lot greater if you have Spikes support and sandstorm to wear down the aforementioned Pokemon's HP. Destiny Bond can also be used in conjunction with Taunt to force the opponent to use an attacking move, thus taking the foe down when Gengar is KOed.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: Giga Drain / Hypnosis / Explosion
    move 4: Fire Punch / Hypnosis / Explosion
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>High Speed and Special Attack stats as well as a great movepool make Gengar an excellent all-out attacker. This set sacrifices support moves, such as Will-O-Wisp and Hypnosis, to gain the widest possible coverage against common Pokemon. With perfect neutral coverage, this is an anti-metagame set that is effective against teams that play off resistances. Thunderbolt hits Skarmory and bulky Water-types, such as Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon, whereas Ice Punch nails Zapdos and Celebi for around 40% and OHKOes the common Dragon-types. Giga Drain nails Swampert, who shrugs off Gengar's other attacks and 2HKOes it with Hydro Pump. As Swampert is generally a reliable check to Gengar, you can finish off unprepared teams that don't expect Swampert to falter. Fire Punch, Gengar's last move, allows it to OHKO some Forretress and 2HKO some Magneton and Metagross. Hypnosis can eliminate a threat if it hits, making it a great move for a Gengar focused on sweeping. Finally, Explosion could be used in one of the final slots as a way to deal with Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice. Use a Hasty or Naive nature and 36 Attack EVs with Explosion to make sure Dugtrio is guaranteed to finish off Blissey and Snorlax afterwards.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread is very straightforward; 216 Speed EVs allow Gengar to outrun Adamant Dugtrio, while 40 HP EVs help against Aerodactyl and in taking random attacks. Gengar's Special Attack is maximized to ensure a high damage output. A Timid nature is advised to make Gengar as fast as possible, but a Modest nature can be used to increase Gengar's power even further if you don't mind losing to opposing Gengar. If using Modest, just use max Special Attack and Speed, the latter of which is for Houndoom.</p>

    <p>As Gengar lacks Will-O-Wisp, Tyranitar can be a problem, as it doesn't take much from Gengar's attacks. Starmie can switch in on a predicted Ice Punch or Fire Punch, proceeding to outspeed and KO Gengar with Psychic. Gengar is not OHKOed by any of its other attacks though and can finish Starmie off with Thunderbolt if it doesn't carry Psychic. Raikou is also problematic, as it outspeeds Gengar and has access to Calm Mind. As such, Dugtrio makes a good teammate; it can eliminate Raikou and +1 Tyranitar. Defensive variants of Zapdos and Celebi cause further problems for Gengar, taking about 40% from super effective moves while doing serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt and Psychic, respectively. Tyranitar can be used to assist Gengar's team against Zapdos, while Dugtrio can switch in on a Recovering Celebi and 2HKO with Hidden Power Bug.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Perish Trapper
    move 1: Mean Look
    move 2: Perish Song
    move 3: Substitute / Taunt
    move 4: Destiny Bond / Protect / Hypnosis
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 80 SpD / 80 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Perish Trapping Gengar is often unexpected and can turn the tables on Gengar's typical counters. The idea of the set is to use Mean Look as a Gengar counter, such as Blissey or Snorlax, switches in and trap it and stall it out with Perish Song for the KO. Substitute provides free turns at the cost of a quarter of Gengar's HP. After two turns, Gengar switches to an appropriate switch-in to the opposing Pokemon, scoring a free KO on the trapped opponent. Destiny Bond is used in the final moveslot to let Gengar take out another Pokemon after successfully Perish Trapping something. It should only be used as a last resort, such as when Gengar has lost most of its HP from making Substitutes. Taunt can be used instead of Substitute to stop attempts at crippling Gengar with status moves or phazing it, but Protect must then be used in the final moveslot, as Gengar needs free turns to pull off the strategy. Hypnosis is an alternative to put the trapped Pokemon to sleep, rendering it useless as Perish Song takes effect. However, its low accuracy makes it a risky option.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This bulky EV spread allows Gengar to survive dangerous moves, such as Celebi's Psychic and Choice Band Salamence's Hidden Power Flying, which is needed because Gengar is vulnerable while it uses Perish Song. With 80 Speed EVs and a Timid nature, Gengar has over 300 Speed, allowing it to outspeed a vast number of Pokemon and use Substitute to provide free turns for itself. Its Speed stat should not be maximized though because bulk is this set's main priority.</p>

    <p>For the purposes of trapping, Dugtrio makes an excellent teammate because of its Arena Trap ability. Dugtrio can reliably trap and KO Pokemon with Perish Song if Gengar is KOed before Perish Song has fully taken effect. However, Dugtrio will need to carry the otherwise slightly gimmicky Substitute or Protect to succeed. Dugtrio can also assist against Starmie, Raikou, and Dragon Dance Tyranitar, all of which are problematic for Gengar.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Choice Band is a gimmicky option but an option nonetheless, as Gengar has access to two strong physical STAB attacks in Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball. This set can do serious damage to Pokemon that normally counter Gengar, as Blissey and Snorlax are nailed by Focus Punch and Celebi by Sludge Bomb. Once the opponent discovers the set, however, Gengar can be easily countered and will often end up resorting to Explosion quite quickly. Shadow Ball used to be a common move for dispatching of Celebi and other Gengar. Sludge Bomb is the only other physical move worth using on Gengar, as it hits Blissey for about 25-30% and has a chance to poison the foe. This will force Blissey to resort to using Softboiled, which is when Gengar can hit her with Focus Punch for the 2HKO. Gengar can run a mixed set with both special and physical attacks, but this would be less effective overall due to the split EVs. Additionally, it would run into serious issues with Metagross and Jirachi and overall is generally not effective in this metagame.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Blissey can come in on most Gengar sets with ease; special attacks do virtually nothing to it, and Natural Cure makes status moves ineffective. That said, it is usually wise to switch out to a sleep absorber on Hypnosis to activate Sleep Clause. Curse + Rest Snorlax can set up on Gengar without fear of Will-O-Wisp; the standard RestTalk Regice is a solid Gengar counter as well. Both should watch out for Taunt, however. RestTalk Magneton can handle Gengar that aren't using Fire Punch. Teams that use resistances to defend against strong special attackers will often have to figure out or guess Gengar's set first, as it is very versatile.</p>

    <p>With some careful playing, Calm Zapdos will usually be able to switch into Gengar; Ice Punch deals considerable damage, but Gengar will usually lose one-on-one. Celebi can take on Gengar well thanks to Recover and Calm Mind, as Gengar won't usually risk staying in and taking Psychic. Jirachi works in a similar way, except it takes less damage from Thunderbolt than Celebi takes from Ice Punch. With maximum HP and some Special Defense investment, Pokemon such as Metagross and Tyranitar can reliably shut Gengar down. Tyranitar can also trap and eliminate Gengar with Pursuit. However, both Metagross and Tyranitar have to watch be cautious of Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>Raikou is a good counter too because it doesn't take much damage from Thunderbolt or Ice Punch, and can outspeed and do around serious damage to Gengar with Thunderbolt; it should be wary of an incoming Hypnosis or Will-O-Wisp though. Rest + Sleep Talk Raikou, though situational, is a hard counter to Gengar. Dusclops is in the same boat; Rest + Sleep Talk sets can easily switch in on Gengar, but the Pain Split variant should watch out for status.</p>

    Don't use "then" right after a comma; otherwise, good job.

    EDIT: @Pocket - It's been 11 days so I figured it was okay -- sorry if it's an inconvenience.
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    how can this enter GP phase, when adv players apparently are still arguing over the content?

    (this is why the traditional QC process works -_-)
  21. EnvoyOfTheEnd

    EnvoyOfTheEnd

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    45
    Hello all. I have a couple questions about gengar. I have been using the old EV spreads for a while now, before you guys started rewriting everything, and I wanted to know why they were not effective. Id also like to know why you guys build gengar bulky: I feel like being naturally frail and fast, one should use him in as much of an offensive role as possible, rather than EV'ing him to survive certain hits from threats after they have been burned or whatnot. Will-o-wisp is incredibly useful, but its nto a guaranteed hit, so I wouldnt build an ev spread basically banking on that move hitting its target and gengar surviving it, because what if you dont burn what you need to? Better yet, what is you burn something and give it a guts boost? Then those extra EV's you have dont do very much for you at all. Then again this is all pretty situational. Any answers or feedback would be welcome.
  22. Awoken

    Awoken

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    Gengar is predominantly used as a spinblocker so you need it to stay alive and keep spikes up. Being bulky lets you switch in more easily, and even without many EVs its Special Attack and Speed are sufficient for all intents and purposes.

    About Will-o-wisp, you typically use it on something you can force out to burn the switch-in. No one is going to switch Heracross or Machamp in against Gengar anyway.
  23. EnvoyOfTheEnd

    EnvoyOfTheEnd

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    45
    If using Gengar as a spinblocker, why wouldnt one chose to use a bulkier ghost type such as dusclops, so gengar could make full use of his offensive prowess?
  24. Awoken

    Awoken

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    Because Dusclops is vulnerable to spikes, set-up fodder, and one-dimensional. Gengar is always a threat.
  25. EnvoyOfTheEnd

    EnvoyOfTheEnd

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    45
    Well that is a pretty clear cut answer. Thank you very much.

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