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Gengar (Icy Wind Lead)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ShinyAzelf, Sep 6, 2010.

  1. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
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    [SET]
    name: Icy Wind
    move 1: Icy Wind
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Counter
    move 4: Focus Blast / Taunt
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Mild / Hasty
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 0 Def
    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>Gengar is a great unexpected lead who can stop a large portion of the common leads in the metagame. For instance, Azelf and Aerodactyl must choose between setting up Stealth Rock and or attacking Gengar since Icy Wind + Shadow Ball is a certain 2HKO on both. Additionally, Gengar can take out the opponent's lead almost all the time, sometimes even keeping its Focus Sash intact.</p>
    <p>Icy Wind and Shadow Ball are the bread and butter of this set. Icy Wind breaks the opposing lead's Focus Sash and lowers its Speed, allowing Gengar to outspeed and take it out with Shadow Ball it the next turn and take it out with Shadow Ball. Common suicide leads, such as Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Infernape, either get up their Stealth Rock or bring Gengar down to its Focus Sash. If they set up Stealth Rock, Gengar remains at full health with its Focus Sash still unactivated. However, if they attack, then you Gengar can take out the opposing lead while keeping Stealth Rock off the field.</p>

    <p>The rest of the moves enable allow Gengar to eliminate physical threats and leads that who resist both Icy Wind and Shadow Ball. Counter is a great move for taking out common physical threats like such as Machamp and Metagross, reflecting their attacks for double the damage. The last move should probably be Focus Blast, which allows Gengar to deal with Heatran and Tyranitar, two Pokemon who cannot be taken out otherwise. With a Mild nature, Gengar will 2HKO max HP Heatran with a Focus Blast followed by a Shadow Ball, while surviving with its Focus Sash. Gengar also has a high chance of OHKOing max HP Tyranitar with Focus Blast if a Mild nature is used.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between the natures is difficult. A Mild nature allows Gengar to take out Heatran and Tyranitar most of the time (bar Focus Blast misses and low damage rolls), which is the main reason to run Focus Blast. A Hasty nature may can be used to outspeed Infernape and 2HKO it with Shadow Ball, ensuring that it can only either set up Stealth Rock or bring Gengar down to its Focus Sash. Alternatively, Taunt also helps against slower Stealth Rock leads. Generally, a Mild nature should be used if you opt for Focus Blast, while a Hasty nature is the preferred option if you choose Taunt.</p>

    <p>Gengar does not need much team support, as it can deal with most leads that who it comes across with. The biggest lead that who gives Gengar trouble is Scarf Jirachi. Iron Head's high flinch rate means that Gengar can only Counter 40% of the time, rendering it useless for the remaining 60% of the time. Therefore, a good teammate for Gengar is Magnezone. Magnezone traps Jirachi with Magnet Pull, and can set up a Substitute before taking it out. Magnezone It can also trap Skarmory and Forretress, two leads who set up in on Gengar's face if it does not run Taunt. Other than that, Gengar fares well on its own, often preventing Stealth Rock through Taunt or sheer force.</p>
  2. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    It seems like, for the most part, Frosslass would be able to pull off the Icy Wind + Shadow Ball better, with the added advantage of being able to set Spikes in addition to just serving as a pure anti lead.

    However, if you intend for this set to work well, I highly suggest that you put Counter and possibly Taunt into the last two slots, which lets you prevent slower leads from setting Rocks, and lets you beat Machamp and Metagross.

    Seems like a cool idea overall though.
  3. Venser

    Venser

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    Vs. Heatran, you should Icy Wind then Focus Blast, to give you a better chance of KOing. Besides that, it's pretty cool. I would mention Thunderbolt/Counter/Taunt in AC, but that's about it.

    @ Above poster: Froslass lacks sheer offensive power. Pair this with a Forretress or Skarmory if you really want spikes. They also cover gengar's weaknesses outside of Gravity.
  4. Korpandor

    Korpandor

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    I'd also add in Thunderbolt as a option there. Maybe a comment on the nature choice would be cool?
  5. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    I'd remove protect. What priority moves from leads hit Gengar?

    Empoleon, which always has Aqua Jet and you 2HKO with Focus Blast+Shadow Ball, so you lose anyway barring Hpump misses. Metagross, which beats you with MM+BP, always. (Does Bullet Punch 2HKO?) Machamp, Payback+Bullet Punch>Gengar.

    Imo, the third slot should be Taunt/Focus Blast/Energy Ball, since Swampert is covered to an extent with Taunt.

    And Protect should not be in the last slot for reasons listed.

    Btw, don't add Thunderbolt. It doesn't actually kill anything out of the top ten leads you don't already cover.
  6. Korpandor

    Korpandor

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    I'm actually gonna go in and change my opinion to what Darkamber said... Thunderbolt would just be inferior to Energy ball.
  7. boredomisbliss

    boredomisbliss

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    I do like the concept, but it doesn't really serve the purpose of an antilead, unless as other people are saying, you give it TAUNT.
    Anyways, im not completely sold on Icy Wind. Gengar is faster than most things in the lead position, bar Azelf and Aerodactyl, ScarfChi, and Starmie I guess. Gengar doesn't really prevent them from setting up rocks, which is their purposes mostly. Also note that Modest Icy Wind does 83% - 97.8% to antileadNite, 0% of OHKO, a sign of its weakness. Although your sash does save you from the OHKO by Meteor.
    IMO taunt should go over Icy Wind, Taunt + Destiny Bond is just too great, and Sucker Punch should be considered IMO on the third slot. I think that once Azelf/Starmie and co get Icy Winded, I can imagine them switching out, but Sucker Punch allows you to beat them with Shadow Ball + Sucker Punch. You do lose coverage against Swampert and Heatran, but Destiny Bond should be fine as long as they're taunted, securing the KO and preventing rocks.
    Either way you're not beating Machamp :/ or Metagross with Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch.
  8. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Actually, boredoomisbliss, you can beat Machamp by Destiny Bonding on the first turn, so when it Bullet Punches, it dies.
  9. boredomisbliss

    boredomisbliss

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    Well actually Destiny Bond works this way:

    You sent out Gengar
    He sent out Machamp
    Gengar used Destiny Bond
    Machamp used Payback, 100%, Sash
    EDIT
    Machamp Switched out, gengar has 1 hp left
  10. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Simper Fi

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    It doesn't look that bad, as far as QC standards go. Protect is dumb. Focus Blast should be main slash; it's a lot easier to deal with Swampert than Heatran.

    You need Timid for Infernape, though, really.

    EDIT: Boredom, DBond lasts until your next move.
  11. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Really, Gengar needs the speed, but the main option should be Modest if this is a one-time deal. If this Gengar serves a purpose mid game, Tmid should be utilized just for the sheer purpose of outspeeding things. Of course, base 100's like Jirachi manage pretty well, so it's not a total loss if Gengar does use Modest.

    Overall, this seems to be a pretty cool idea. I have to think, though. There are alot of Pokemon that can use Icy Wind and hit for the KO.
  12. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    It's a great theory set, I've used it before (it's not an original idea). However, what frequently happens is this:

    Azelf used stealth rock
    Gengar used icy wind, azelf took ~20%
    Azelf switched out
    Shadow Ball resist switched in.

    The fact that there isn't anything forcing them to stay in and die means an intelligent opponent will save their lead to do something later. I think that a shadow ball/focus blast/sucker punch/filler makes for a better anti-lead, as it gives the opponent the illusion of security. However, that's another subject entirely...
  13. eXeggutoraped

    eXeggutoraped

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    No taunt and destiny bond scream set up bait on the switch.
    And why use icy wind on something so fast and fragile? There are probably half a dozen better uses of icy wind but it's pretty useless in general.

    Slower leads set up SR and wear you down.
    Suicide leads set up SR and die, which is their goal.
  14. sharkz

    sharkz

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    Icy wind is used so that you break their sash and the next turn you can outspeed and KO the lead. Slower leads also get taunted, so you've at least stopped them from setting up SR.
  15. Thorns

    Thorns

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    my only gripe is that focus blast has 70 accuracy but i guess this is gengar. sounds interesting, i'll try it out
  16. doomvendingmachine

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    I used this lead a long time ago, but with lo instead of focus sash for some reason i cant remember. Leadchamp forced it into retirement, but foucs sash gives it a new lease on life.
  17. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    I was actually pretty skeptical when I read the thread title, but this set actually does seem really interesting. Gengar boasts quite a few things other Icy Wind lead proposals did not (namely, Ghost typing and Counter). The way I see it, suicide leads like Azelf can set up SR and die, or set up SR and switch out, but if they switch out, something coming in is taking at least two, if not three hard hits from Gengar thanks to Focus Sash. I'll test this out and get back to you on what I decide.
  18. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    I've been testing this, I can attest to how well this works. It's a nice lead :]

    EDit: lil' bit of a scarf rachi lead issue, maybe mention a SR/Shuca Heatran as a partner
  19. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    you should list Magnezone as a teammate becuase it traps both Scizor and Jirachi, both of which can easily switch in. ScarfRachi also leaves your Gengar with just a 40% chance of even using destiny bond.
  20. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    Running Counter, scizor is no longer an issue as long as the sash is still active.
  21. Joel

    Joel

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    I see where this guy is going with this, and I'll test it out, however, I agree with NailsOU, an opponent is probably going to switch out to something else that resists Shadow Ball. Maybe a mention of Sludge Bomb for it's STAB attack should be a mention in slot one? Aside from Scizor and Forrey, all of the likely switch in's are going to take neutral damage anyways. I'd rather a chance at Poisoning something than a chance at a Defence drop, since the Defence drop goes away if they switch out.
  22. Korpandor

    Korpandor

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    After playtesting i realized what a great lead this was. I would definetly recommend this to anyone who is unsure to use it ore not. I don't have any logs though.
  23. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Gengar used Focus Blast! It miraculously didn't miss! Shadow Ball resist lost >50% of it's health.
    Switchin did something! Gengar survived with its Focus Sash!
    Gengar used Focus Blast! It miraculously didn't miss! Shadow Ball resist lost >50% of it's health. Shadow Ball resist died!

    ...Unless it was a Blissey. Then just Taunt.

    So yeah.
  24. eXeggutoraped

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    joke thread? Not sure if serious.

    gengar, like all pokemon, has 4 moveslots, not 8.

    icy wind + attacking move kills suicide leads, gratz, they set up sr, what did you do besides waste a team slot on a gimmick lead.

    Metagross has access to explosion, Sr and Stab bullet punch with the 2nd highest attack stat in OU.

    Machamp has some bulk, dynamic punch to stop switch in's which this set is weak against, type coverage and also bullet punch.

    Frosslass has taunt, destiny bond and spikes.

    Regardless of above rant, it's impossible to rate while it has 8 moves and 2 natures.

    - Shadow Ball
    - explosion / energy ball / Sucker Punch
    - Counter
    - Taunt

    Personaly i'd go with a hasty nature and 4 attack ev with explosion,
    taunt and counter go well together.
    shadow ball is your bread and butter.

    If this set ever became popular it would be easy to deal with once you know how it works, it just seems to un-reaible with way too much prediction. Trick scarf leads would make gengar effectively set up bait for the entire match, with no rocks up they just switch out and bring in a counter.
  25. Veedrock

    Veedrock

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    An intelligent opponent doesn't stop you from having full health and a Focus Sash (and possibly a Special Defense drop).

    The story doesn't stop after the suicide lead dies. You still have Focus Sash intact, and can do a lot more damage from there.

    Why in the world are you comparing this to Machamp and Metagross? Because it's not a Stealth Rock lead?

    Very few leads are not screwed over by Trick, including Metagross and Machamp. And if they're switching out second turn...why don't you? Then you have a fast revenge killer and if nothing else Gengar can take an eye for an eye thanks to Destiny Bond.

    I will agree that you have way too many slashes. You need to narrow it down to what's most effective, not all possibilities. Extras can get mention in AC.

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