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Gengar (ProtectGar) [QC: 1/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Trinitrotoluene, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    You should mention Lucario as a great partner to take Bullet punches coming your way and getting rid of Blissey. Also, if you flee from a Ttar's Crunch you can take advantage of the Justified boost. I'd also recommend just calling the set Protect. It's a good set for the current meta and I hope it gets through. It plays a lot differently than the Sub+Misc sets.
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I played with this set, but Protect Gar plays too similarly to the Sub + 3 Atks to warrant its own analysis. Protect and Sub both have its perks, and arguably Sub is more useful than Protect outside of beating CB Scizor. Even more, I find HP Fire to be the biggest selling point than Sub / Protect, being able to nail Steel-types without resorting to Focus Blast's atrocious accuracy.

    Protect will probably be slashed with Substitute in the analysis on-site, but there's little justification to do more.

    QC Rejected
  3. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    I... sorry but I completely fail to see how this is any different from the Substitute set on site. I'mnot saying Protect doesn't have its merrits; I'm sure it does. I just don't see why it doesn't get a slash on the current 3 attacks set and a quick mention and call it a day.

    It has the same moves bar Protect, the same play style as Sub (more or less), the same EVs and items... there's no need for a separate analysis. Hell, checking right now PROTECT IS ALREADY MENTIONED IN THE 3 ATTACK ANALYSIS. This set is COMPLETELY pointless.

    Sorry, no support from me here.
  4. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Current on-site analysis:


    This set is similar to the previous two, except gaining one coverage move to specifically hit its counters who take neutral damage from Focus Blast. Due to the popularity of the previous two sets, Hidden Power Fire is sometimes neglected as a possible third move that can unexpectedly smash Scizor and Ferrothorn for the OHKO. Hidden Power Fire also hits Skarmory, Bronzong, and Jirachi for super effective damage, possibly 2HKOing Jirachi with Spikes on the field. Since Focus Blast's inability to hit consistently is such a letdown, Hidden Power Fire makes a great option over Thunderbolt for hitting Steel-types. However, Thunderbolt is still a useful alternative if bulky Water-types such as Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon prove to be a nuisance to the team. As usual, Substitute is an absolute requirement for this set to act as a safety blanket against Pursuit users and status inducers. The item selection for this set is a toss-up; Leftovers allows for more survivability, while Life Orb increases damage output needed for OHKOs and 2HKOs on defensive threats such as Ferrothorn and Jirachi.

    Maximum Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature provides the most sweeping potency. Even with the Speed drop from Hidden Power Fire, Gengar is still a speed point ahead of the musketeers, and outpaces anything below them. However, it is recommended to have a sturdy Latios and Latias counter now that Gengar's Speed is a point lower than them.

    Protect was a lot more effective back in DPP due to the prevalence of Choice Pursuit users, namely Scizor and Tyranitar. However, they are no longer as popular as they were, making Protect a barely adequate option to use over Substitute. It can still be used to conserve HP and scout for the occasional Choice trapper, however.

    Offensive Dragon-types, such as Haxorus, Dragonite, and Salamence, make excellent choices for partners thanks to Gengar's ability to draw in either Steel-types or bulky Water-types and weaken them with highly damaging attacks. Fighting-types, especially Terrakion and Lucario, make perfectly good partners should Gengar be KOed by a Choice-locked Pursuit user. The free turn allows them to set up their respective stat-up moves and possibly sweep.




    Maybe just take out the bold paragraph, put a few lines in the first one detailing Protect's advantages? I like Protect a lot, it's tons better for scouting. It really helps against Volt-Turn too, letting you ease your own buffer into it. But Jimera has points, as they do play quite alike. I don't want Protect go to waist at all, and it needs some better mentions than "it's inferior to Substitute", because it's not, they just do different things depending on the situation.
  5. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Yeah I'm good with that. Protect certainly deserves a mention and some credit, but these two... they're the same damn set with one move swapped out! A simple paragraph stating how protect can help scout and how when combined with HP Fire it wrecks Volt Turn would be sufficient.
  6. Doughboy

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    I personally would slash Thunderbolt in the third spot since when using HP Fire you lose out on tieing in the critical 110 speed tier (aka Latios, Latias, Espeon) all things Gengar can hit super-effectively. However if it is to beat Volt-Turn (have fun switching in :l ) then I guess HP Fire should be there alone.
  7. Woodchuck

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    Thunderbolt in the third slot would kind of completely defeat the purpose of the set. With Protect, Gengar becomes an excellent lure/scout, especially when used with Magnezone. It actually plays quite differently than with Substitute; Gengar seems to have a greater support role with Protect in my experience.

    So are the rest of the Gengar sets, lol.
  8. Trinitrotoluene

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    WIP post for Deep Sea of Mare.

    Show Hide
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    PLEASE NOTE THAT THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT I'VE OBSERVED IN THE OU METAGAME. The new Therian formes and Keldeo have certainly made an impact on the landscape of OU. Rain teams are more rampant, and with the release of new Dream World abilities, Pokemon such as Mamoswine, Amoonguss, and Sandslash are starting to emerge from their holes and storm through OU. Several highly noted threats from BW1, such as Scizor [use this bro, you won't be disappointed], Heatran, and Terrakion have tumbled down the usage stats a bit, due to the metagame being more hostile to them, but still lurk the corners, just as powerful as ever. This cluster of offense also leaves a bit of room for stall to shine, due to the release of defensive threats such as Regenerator Amoonguss. The new move tutors haven't proved to be a disappointment, as seen with Salamence, who can now run Moxie, Dragon Dance, and Outrage without any legality issues, Ferrothorn, who can now use the holy trifecta of Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Leech Seed also without any legality issues, and Mamoswine, who now has a reason to run its excellent hidden ability, Thick Fat. Meanwhile, some Pokemon, such as Starmie, Blissey [and by extension Chansey], and Skarmory, while not being affected too much by the move tutors or the newly released abilities, still maintain their respectable usage by an enduring niche.

    The name for this RMT comes from the name of the background music heard in Episode 8 (The Red Coin Fish) of the Noki Bay area in Super Mario Sunshine. The name seemed fitting for a rain team, due to the fact that the music played in an underwater level. It's strangely beautiful and calming, which helps provide a stark contrast to the blitzkrieg-esque offense that this team utilizes. Haha. With that said, enjoy reading the rest of this RMT.

    [HIDEa=np: Deep Sea of Mare][youtube]8sMy1PZpRcY[/youtube][/HInDE]

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    When I started building this team, the concept that I wanted to use was priority abuse. Since most of the current B2W2 OU metagame revolves around outspeeding the relevant threats while trying to avoid being outsped yourself, I reasoned that priority would be a way to stay ahead of the curve. I went with my usual trio of Breloom, Dragonite, and Mamoswine as a base, since they all have access to powerful priority, and then I added Azumarill so I could gain insurance against opposing Mamoswine and Fire-types, such as Victini and Volcarona.

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    Since I was using Azumarill, I decided to use Politoed, due to its access to Drizzle. Drizzle reduces the intensity of Breloom's Fire weakness, grants Mamoswine a pseudo-resistance to Fire-type attacks (when paired with Thick Fat), bestows upon Dragonite the ability to blaze past physical walls, and bolsters the power of Azumarill's STAB moves. Politoed itself also provides the team revenge-killing services for threats such as Weavile and Chlorophyll sweepers.

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    I found a small weakness to Conkeldurr when running through the team, so I decided to add Latios to the team. It also provided another resistance to Ground-, Water-, and Fighting-type moves, something which the team needed. Latios also gave the team a means of crippling at least one member of stall, and if need be, a status absorber. With that, I thought the team was completed.

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    Upon playtesting this team, I noticed that Latios was more dead weight than anything else on the team. It also didn't solve a problem that was created by entry hazards, such as Stealth Rock, which ruined Dragonite's life on the field. While it did keep Keldeo in check (very effectively, I must add), it just wasn't doing enough to justify its spot on the team. Enter Starmie. It's just a little weaker than Latios, but its increased Speed helps against plenty of threats. It also checks Keldeo, while boasting the ability to keep hazards off the field.

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    PHP:
    Politoed (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs
    4 HP 252 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature 
    (+Spd, -Atk)
    Hydro Pump
    Ice Beam
    Focus Blast
    Surf

    Azumarill 
    (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Huge Power
    EVs
    212 HP 252 Atk 44 Spd
    Adamant Nature 
    (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Aqua Jet
    Waterfall
    Superpower
    Ice Punch

    Dragonite 
    (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs
    252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature 
    (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Dragon Dance
    Outrage
    Waterfall
    ExtremeSpeed

    Breloom 
    (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs
    252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature 
    (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Spore
    Swords Dance
    Bullet Seed
    Mach Punch

    Mamoswine 
    (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs
    4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature 
    (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Ice Shard
    Icicle Crash
    Earthquake
    Stealth Rock

    Starmie 
    Choice Specs
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs
    4 HP 252 SAtk 252 Spd
    Timid Nature 
    (+Spd, -Atk)
    Hydro Pump
    Psyshock
    Trick
    Rapid Spin
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    [BOX]Politoed probably is the weakest out of every member in this team, but it plays an irreplacable role by providing the Drizzle support that the team needs. While I've used the Specs, 3 Attacks, and defensive versions in the past, the Scarfed variant seems to be the most effective variant in this Speed-oriented metagame, due to its ability to catch weather-dependent sweepers, such as Venusaur and Stoutland, off-guard. Hydro Pump is Politoed's most powerful STAB-boosted move available, and it allows Politoed to assume a role similar to that of Scarf Kyogre in the Ubers realm. Ice Beam works wonders against dragons, Therians, and Chlorophyll sweepers, due to their weakness against it. Focus Blast lets Politoed catch Tyranitar, Abomasnow, and Ferrothorn off-guard. While it won't kill them off just yet, it can deal a hefty amount of damage to each of them. Surf is Politoed's other STAB, and is useful when Politoed cannot afford to miss with Hydro Pump. The EVs give Politoed the ability to outspeed Tornadus-T, +1 Adamant Dragonite, and every Chlorophyll sweeper, and the IVs minimize confusion and Foul Play damage.

    Having Politoed in the lead position in Team Preview can force the hand of opposing weather teams by goading them into leading with their weather abuser just so they can get the perceived "advantage" against this team. This can be exploited by the rest of the team, which has weapons that can be used against every other weather starter out there. Due to its access to Choice Scarf, Politoed can act as a great revenge killer against weather-dependent sweepers and the inducers themselves. Once opposing weather sweepers and inducers are down and out for the count, Politoed can be used as death fodder so a teammate can get a free switch-in. All in all, Politoed is a weak member of the team, but it's also simultaneously the most and least important member of the team.[/BOX]
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    [BOX]Azumarill is the first priority abuser the team has. Due to Drizzle being nearly everywhere, Azumarill gets a great boost to its STAB Aqua Jet and Waterfall, all at no cost to itself. Also, due to the frailty of many threats that are established in OU, such as Thundurus-T, Gengar, and Lucario, Azumarill and its powerful Aqua Jet really gets its chance to shine in this metagame. While its counters are numerous, they're rather obvious, and are extremely easy to outmaneuver. Aqua Jet is Azumarill's best move, due to its ability to snipe powerful threats, even after a speed boost, such as Volcarona, Terrakion, and Espeon. Waterfall helps Azumarill demolish stall teams by breaking past physical walls, such as Skarmory, Deoxys-D, and Forretress, who don't resist it. In the rain, the amount of damage Azumarill's Waterfall can do is comparable to the giants of OU such as Dragonite and Haxorus spamming Outrage. Superpower helps Azumarill cripple Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, and Gastrodon looking for a free switch-in, often leaving them with barely enough HP to continue being problems for the rest of the team. Ice Punch rips through Multiscale Dragonite, Amoonguss, and Toxicroak, leaving them open against the rest of the team. The EVs maximize the damage that Azumarill can create, while granting it a respectable amount of bulk. The Speed EVs grant Azumarill the ability to outspeed minimum Speed Blissey [Chansey] and demolish it with Waterfall / Superpower.

    Azumarill is this team's strongest member, and due to that strength, is one of my main weapons used against stall teams. Not many physical walls can eat an unresisted Waterfall and walk off with over half of their HP left, and most that can are often weak to Fighting- or Ice-type moves. The only Pokemon that can switch in with relative impunity is Jellicent, which is prime set-up fodder for Dragonite and Breloom. Azumarill is also why I don't worry if an opposing Volcarona or Terrakion somehow manages to get more than one boost under its belt. This team needs Azumarill alive if it wants to have a chance against Pokemon such as Mamoswine, who would otherwise have a field day with the team, and Heatran, who can give Dragonite and Breloom some issues. To cap all of this praise for Azumarill off, it's one of the most important members of this team, and one that I am reluctant to change.[/BOX]
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    [BOX]Dragonite is one of two set-up sweepers present on this team, and the second of four priority abusers found on the team. Multiscale, in conjunction with the Lum Berry it's holding, makes obtaining one Dragon Dance a non-issue. After obtaining one Dragon Dance, it can muscle its way past most of an opponent's team almost effortlessly. With the three attacking moves this Dragonite is using, it gets neutral coverage on every Pokemon in the game except for Ferrothorn, Empoleon, and Shedinja. Dragon Dance is the obligatory set-up move that helps make up for the lack of a Choice item to boost Dragonite's power. Outrage is Dragonite's best STAB move, and oftentimes is the main move Dragonite spams, until the confusion sets in. Waterfall lets Dragonite muscle past Gliscor and Heatran, some of its usual "counters." ExtremeSpeed is Dragonite's priority move, and allows Dragonite to surprise a Mamoswine or Weavile looking to get a free KO on it with Ice Shard. It also alleviates mindgames encountered when facing down Pokemon such as Venusaur and Toxicroak by assuring that Dragonite will always get the first strike in. The EVs maximize Dragonite's Speed and power, while Multiscale buffers Dragonite's impressive bulk. The Lum Berry allows Dragonite to either obtain 4-6 Outrages or a free Dragon Dance / Outrage on a status shooter.

    Due to Multiscale, Dragonite is often played a bit more recklessly than the other team members. When facing a sun team down, Dragonite often takes the lead position, being able to set up a Dragon Dance on Ninetales (unless it has Roar) or the appropriate sweeper / support member and sweep from there. It can rip apart opposing sun and rain teams if they lack the necessary preparations to deal with it, and it can give stall teams a bad time if they lack the necessary preparations to deal with it. Also, due to its access and use of Waterfall, it can even torment sand teams that lack Ferrothorn. To wrap things up smoothly, Dragonite definitely deserves the title of "Best Dragon in OU," and definitely is the most important team member when facing down opposing weather teams.[/BOX]
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    [BOX]Breloom is the third priority abuser the team has, the second team member to possess a set-up move, and the only one with a status-inducing move. However, unlike Dragonite, the other set-up sweeper present on this team, Breloom can incapacitate at least one member of the opponent's team almost permanently thanks to its access to the nearly exclusive move Spore, the only sleep move with perfect accuracy. As mentioned earlier, Spore is Breloom's ace in the hole, being able to incapacitate one member of the opponent's team, which gives Breloom the opportunity to set itself up. Swords Dance is Breloom's set-up move, and is the only one it'll need to hunt down the OU metagame. Bullet Seed is Breloom's best STAB move, due to the release of Technician. Due to its ability to hit multiple times, Bullet Seed is a great answer to Pokemon that abuse Focus Sash and / or Sturdy, such as Dugtrio and Donphan. Mach Punch is Breloom's priority move of choice, being able to demolish Terrakion, Lucario, and Cloyster. The EVs are the standard 252 / 252, which maximize power and speed.

    Breloom is a problem Pokemon for most teams due to its access to Spore. This can most readily be seen when facing stall teams. Due to the lack of power behind a stall team's moves, Breloom can force multiple set-up opportunities against such teams due to its speed and the threat of an impending Spore. Once it's boosted up, Breloom's sheer force is often too much for opposing stall teams to deal with, and most tend to crumble. Those stall teams that have focused themselves around the core of Jellicent, Heatran, and Ferrothorn are especially hurt by this Breloom. Offensive teams that give Breloom even one chance to set up will also fall into this situation. Overall, Breloom is deserving of its place on this team, and will not be changed anytime soon.[/BOX]
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    [BOX]Mamoswine is the fourth priority abuser this team has. It's the only member with an entry hazard, and the only one with an immunity to Electric-type moves, making it a major team member. Mamoswine's STAB moves allow it to act as a reliable Stealth Rock layer and mid-game wallbreaker without too many issues. Thanks to Thick Fat and Drizzle, it obtains a pseudo-resistance to Fire-type moves, giving it the ability to switch in on moves such as Salamence's Fire Blast or Jolteon's Hidden Power Ice. Ice Shard is Mamoswine's obligatory priority move, and the reason the team doesn't care about Chlorophyll sweepers or if DD MoxieMence has somehow managed to get itself to +6. Icicle Crash gives the team a more reliable answer when facing down Amoonguss and Celebi. Earthquake is Mamoswine's other STAB move, and the most reliable move to use when facing down several components of rain stall, such as Tentacruel and Slowbro. Stealth Rock is the obligatory entry hazard that EVERY team needs if they want to have an easier time living. The EVs maximize power and speed, while the Adamant nature further powers Mamoswine up.

    Mamoswine is played carefully due to the utilitarian nature of its Ice Shard, which can properly eliminate many threats present in OU, such as the Therians, dragons, and Chlorophyll sweepers, and its auspicious resistances to Ice- and Electric-type moves, which give the team an easier time moving around. Every one of its weaknesses can be exploited by the rest of the team, and Mamoswine in return can work with some of their weaknesses. Also, due to its speed, Mamoswine can act as a powerful revenge killer against opposing Techniloom, which would otherwise pose a problem for the team. All in all, Mamoswine's multiple roles solidify its position as a member of this team.[/BOX]
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    [BOX]Despite Starmie being the most recent member of this team, it has yet to disappoint. Its speed and power on the special end of the spectrum are a wonder to behold. The lack of an Electric-type move is justified, considering that Thundurus-T got Volt Absorb, which would otherwise make Starmie set-up fodder for it, and Keldeo isn't KOed by a Specs Thunder at +1. Hydro Pump is Starmie's most powerful STAB move, being able to OHKO threats such as Conkeldurr and CM Reuniclus in the rain. Psyshock is for beating down Keldeo, Toxicroak, and Virizion. Trick gives Starmie the ability to ruin the walling potential of at least one stall member, and Rapid Spin keeps the team healthy, which is important, considering that none of the team members have reliable recovery. The EVs maximize speed and power (yet again), and the IVs minimize confusion and Foul Play damage. Choice Specs were used over another item due to their power boost and potential to ruin stall teams when Tricked over to them.

    Starmie is usually brought out to face down Pokemon such as Keldeo and Conkeldurr. Its speed and power usually are enough to see it through such battle situations without sustaining too much harm. However, Starmie's biggest contributions are seen when facing against stall teams, where it can fire off powerful STAB attacks (before using Trick) and cripple key members, such as Blissey and Ferrothorn, with Trick. Also, due to Starmie's typing, it can act as Pursuit bait for any Tyranitar brave enough to switch into a Hydro Pump or Trick. It's these contributions which have solidified Starmie's place over Latios on this team, and shaped it to be a great replacement.[/BOX]
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    Well, writing my first B2W2 RMT was a blast. Messing around with Photoshop to create the various banners was also fun. I'd like to give a special mention for my two [unofficial] tutees Harsha and Expert Physics for being great, respectable guys and a pleasure to work with and tutor. Another mention goes to Motagua, who revolutionized team building with his B2W2 team, Sacred Rain. Well, now that that's over with, I hope you, the reader, enjoyed going through this RMT. If you like the team, give it a Luvdisc, and if you have a comment, then post it. /me should stop watching LPs by Chuggaaconroy and get back to work.
  9. Black Rain

    Black Rain

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    Protect would give Gengar a really nice edge over a large portion of the metagame, namely, as others above me have stated, Scizor, Tyranitar, and volt-turn based teams. In my opinion, it's a pretty forgotten set and not many people use it anymore.

    @STEELDRAGON: I don't think the Defense EV's will be necessary. The idea is to use Protect to scout whether Scizor uses Bullet Punch or Pursuits. If Scizor pursuits, Scizor will be OHKO'd by HP Fire, and if Bullet Punch, Gengar will switch into a resist.
  10. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    I'm sorry but I don't like this set. It's too situational and you're usually better with Sub + 3 Attacks.

    QC REJECTED 2/3

    However, I do agree that Protect deserves a mention and the one currently on-site isn't the most flattering, so if this gets a third rejection, I'll edit it.
  11. Bloo

    Bloo
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    Giving this its third rejection. The reasons for the rejections have been explained already, so I won't say anything.

    Moving to L&O. Feel free to mention this on-site when you can, zdrup!

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