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Gengar (Ubers Analysis) [Skeleton] QC: 0/3

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Garganator, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Garganator

    Garganator

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    Smogon Gengar Page

    [Overview]

    • The strongest SpA based Ghost type in Ubers without set-up moves like Calm Mind/Nasty Plot, etc.
    • Pretty much the same when compared to Gen 4.
    • BW2 metagame is kind for our levitating poisonous ghost, as the only semi-popular Pursuit user in Ubers is Tyranitar, which Gengar can still beat 1on1 with Focus Blast. His worst nemezis, Scizor, dropped drastically in popularity when compared to Gen 4 Ubers metagame. In other words Gengar is much less vulnerable to Pursuit Trapping then in the past.
    • Good 130 base Special attack with GREAT STAB to have in Ubers hitting many popular Ubers Pokemon for SE damage (or at least neutral) and good special based movepool to give him overall great coverage in his attacks.
    • Good immunities (Normal, Ground, Fighting) and Resistances (Grass, Bug) allows him to switch more easily into field then his bad defences suggest
    • Still HORRIBLY frail by Ubers standards and most strong neutral attacks in Ubers rip him to shreds (and even some resisted ones may do the same)
    • Good base 110 Speed, which allows him to outspeed many crucial targets (like Palkia, Terrakion, most Lugias, Rayquaza, etc.)
    • Unfortunately his lack of set-up moves (absolutely NOTHING to boost his special attack) doesn't allow him to sweep on his own, unless opponents team is really weakened. In other words he's a bit weak against heavy stall based teams. Although as a late game cleaner/lure/revenge killer it doesn't dissapoint.
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Good 110 speed makes him one of the fastest Scarfers in this tier. The ability to outspeed targets like Scarf Terrakion, +1 DD Rayquaza, Darkrai, MewTwo and few other scary Pokemon makes him great revenge killer in Ubers.
    • Not that hard to switch in taking into account his great immunities and resistances, although in Ubers tier he may still struggle to find this free turn to get in.
    • Although really uncommon these days, Pursuit users are a massive problem for this set
    • This set is a bit of a liability against more defensive teams, as it's not powerful by any means and won't break through any bulky Pokemon, although Trick is always good against dedicated walls.
    • One of few Scarfers with ability to revenge kil BOTH DD and SD Rayquaza, something that not many of them can claim.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • HP Fire is an option to hit Forretress and Ferrothorn really hard (as long as it's not raining), although it's really inferior to HP Ice on this set and Icy Wind without any damage boost doesn't hit hard enough. Although HP Fire allows you to beat the most popular Rapid Spinner without taking a hit as long as his not at 100% health.
    • Thunder is another possible option as without Thunder you won't be able to hurt seriously some certain Pokemon in Ubers (Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Tentacruel and Manaphy are main targets for it)
    • It's a 'glue' Pokemon. In other words you don't build a team around Scarf Gengar, but to fix weaknesses which teams have.
    • Modest Nature is a possibility for additional power, but you loose the ability to outspeed some crucial targets, so it's not really recommended.
    • Good pick mostly for offensive teams, but his immunities/resistances are actually good for more defensive teams as well, as balanced/stall like teams in Ubers really appreciate Scarf support with many Uber Pokemon not having sure-fire counters (like MewTwo, Kyurem-W, Deoxys-A, etc.)
    • Really appreciates hazards supports, which make up for his missing power with Scarf.
    • As the main niche of this Gengar is revenge killing, it needs teammates which wall-break and/or straight out sweep. The best ones are those which resist his -Dark, -Ghost and -Psychic weaknesses (in other words mostly steel & dark types), so special mention goes mostly to Dialga (Gengar covers perfectly Dialgas Earth and Fighting weaknesses), Dark, Rock & Steel Arceus and Tyranitar. Offensively Terrakion is great teammates as well, as you cover his -Fighting and -Earth weaknesses. Also Gengar can't handle strong neutral hits like Water Spout or Fire Blast, so Grass Arceus, Lati@s, Ubers bulky waters are viable partners as well.
    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Shadow Ball
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Icy Wind
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Thunder / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Good base 110 Speed and 130 Special Attack with great STAB makes this set dangerous against weakened teams.
    • Really good bait/lure to targets, which love to switch into Scarf set. Tyranitar, Dialga, Forretress, Ferrothorn, bulky waters (Manaphy, Kyogre, Water Arceus) to name few, taking them out in one or two hits as long as at least SR is up.
    • Icy Wind is crucial against Rayquaza (and much less common Salamence), which otherwise survive every single hit even with SR up and easily OHKO you back. With Icy Wind (or HP Ice if you go with Thunder) you still keep your ability to check/revenge kill all variants of Rayquaza (and Mence) except Dragon Dance ones.
    • Focus Blast with Shadow Ball alone give you perfect neutral coverage in just two moves. And without Focus Blast Tyranitar would be 100% surefire counter to Gengar. But it's not.
    • Thunder is crucial to hit more defensive water types and Ho-Oh for SE damage, which otherwise could easily switch into Gengar and with Life Orb it's strong enough to work. Also you still 2HKO Forretress with Thunder and with Scizor being much less common HP Fire is not as necessary.
    • HP Fire although it's still good pick with Sun support, allowing you to beat Steel types, which otherwise wall you (like SpD Jirachi, Bronzong, etc.)
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Hazards are pretty much necessary to make this set work (Stealth Rock is absolute minimum).
    • Substitute and Protect are both possible options on this set, but scouting is not as important with team preview and Pursuit users being rare in Ubers.
    • It has a small niche of offensive spin blocking, although it's really frail, so it's necessary to be cautious with him in this role. Fortunately for him the most popular spinners Forretress and Tentacruel are slower then him and don't hit that hard at all, so he can still beat them in 1vs1 situations as long as it's played properly. Also zero self-sustain (unless you really want to run Pain Split) limits his spin blocking attempts to minimum.
    • Appreciates Wish support, as Life Orb takes out his life really quick and allows him to weaken opponents walls further, as weakening his targets and luring some of them is his main job (or late game cleaning with really weakened opponents). Also he has good synergy with pretty much all viable Wish users in Ubers, which is good bonus.
    • The same teammates mentioned on Scarf set work perfectly well here as well, although his ability to lure some strong Pokemon (like TTar, Steel types, Bulky waters) allow some sweepers/wallbreakers to truly shine. CM MewTwo, CM Lugia, Tail Glow Manaphy, CM Lati Twins, Extremekiller Arceus are good examples of offensive synergy with this Gengar.
    [Other Options]

    • Energy Ball (mostly for Groudon and Ground Arceus)
    • Sludge Bomb (only pretty much for Grass Arceus, although it's your strongest attack against neutral targets as well)
    • Destiny Bond to catch someone offguard, especially with good base speed which Gengar has
    • Hypnosis for sleep status, although ONLY with Substitute so it gives you another chance to use it in case it misses at first time
    • Pain Split for self-recovery, but Gengar is so frail that it won't have time to use it, as his main job should be attacking as much as possible. Possible with Substitute though.
    • Thunderbolt if you desperately need electric attack and don't want to rely on weather, although power drop in pretty much all cases is not worth it
    • Expert Belt to bluff Choice set(s). Especially when you hit good amount of targets for SE damage.
    • Choice Specs is somewhat viable and in some cases power increase does matter, especially now with only Tyranitar being somewhat the only common Pursuit user in Ubers. Testing it and looking forward to QC opinion on it (also checking if Sludge Bomb on it is strong enough against neutral targets where Shadow Ball is not strong enough). Although you loose the ability to revenge kill many crucial targets and in Ubers it has massive competition when it goes to Specs users, while with Scarf/Life Orb it's not outclassed by anything/can't be compared to anything. And in more stallish metagame this additional power and nasty Trick is another advantage over Life Orb.
    [Checks and Counters]

    • Chansey/Blissey are probably the best counters to Gengar as long as they are relatively healthy. Although both of them HATE Trick, so they must be cautious if they face Choice set(s).
    • Rock Arceus in Sand with additional special bulk is second best bet against Gengar taking all hits (even Focus Blast) and recovering them back, while his Stone Edge/Judgement hurts back hard. Dark Arceus is decent check, although it doesn't enjoy taking Focus Blast in the face, so as long as he doesn't switch in directly on it, he wins. It looks similar with Steel Arceus as well.
    • Really uncommon these days, but Scizor and Metagross (especially the second one) easily switch in and checkmate Gengar with Bullet Punch/Pursuit combination. Especially against Choice set(s). Scizor must watch out on HP Fire though.
    • Specially Defensive Jirachi can take all hits, use Thunder-Wave and Iron Head flinch hax it to death although it goes in two hits against Life Orb HP Fire in Sun and special defense drop from Shadow Ball may be fatal. But like Chansey/Blissey he hates being tricked with Choice item.
    • As long as he doesn't switch in/take Focus Blast, Tyranitar obliterates Gengar and Pursuit trap him (especially against Choice set).
  2. Dusknight

    Dusknight

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    In "More Options" you could mention a Substitute+Disable set. It can be pretty annoying to the most Choice Specs/Band users of the tier, because he outspeeds the majority of them. Most notably Kyogre, Dialga, Kyurem-W, Kyurem-B, Reshiram and Zekrom.

    Oh, and I don't know, in "Check and Counters" you mention Chansey and Blissey like his best counters, although they probably are, I would mention that they can outstall him, but they can't touch Gengar with her moves.
  3. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    OK a general note:

    You are going to need prior damage on something for Gengar to revenge kill it. That's needs to be emphasized, stated, and restated. Gengar's Special Attack, while not exactly low, is just not high enough gain many OHKOs, and its non-existent bulk means you will need prior damage to come out alive. Just some calcs to show what I'm talking about (all calcs assume 252 SpA EVs with a Timid nature and Choice Scarf):

    Shadow Ball vs 4/0 +0 Mewtwo 81.4% - 95.5%
    Shadow Ball vs 4/0 +1 Mewtwo 54.2% - 64.4%
    Focus Blast vs 4/0 Normal Arceus 58.8% - 69.3%
    Focus Blast vs 252/0 Normal Arceus 50.5% - 59.5%
    Hidden Power Ice vs 4/0 Rayquaza 95.7% - 112.8% (So you need SR, but that's fairly reliable)
    Shadow Ball vs 4/0 +0 Latios 53.8% - 63.8%
    Shadow Ball vs 4/0 +0 Latias 46.5% - 55.8%
    Focus Blast vs 4/0 Darkrai 101.1% - 119.6% (finally it got one!)
    Focus Blast vs 0/0 Kyurem-W 67% - 79.28% (~37% with SR)

    I mean, some of those calcs are just embarrassing :/. You're not really revenge killing Mewtwo as even with Stealth Rock and assuming it doesn't Calm Mind as you switch and you can bait an Aura Sphere or something, you're still not guaranteed an OHKO. A big draw would be the ability to use Gengar's handy immunity to ExtremeSpeed and Focus Blast Arceus, but the only way its killing Arceus is with a decent amount of prior damage; almost half of its health gone. I don't really feel like arguing over whether its worth an analysis or not, but if it does get one, the fact that it is fairly weak and doesn't have the bulk to be able to afford 2HKOs needs to be evident to the reader.
  4. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Slash Destiny Bond on Scarf Gengar, IMO, it really helps you take down problematic threats you can't actually kill. Yes, I do know aside from the surprise factor, it sucks, but it's still handy.

    I'd also consider a SubDisable set. It's one of those sets that can really punish slower ExtremeKiller Arceuses. Yes, I know they can use ExtremeSpeed to make you Disable that instead of Shadow Claw, but you can actually play around this. Basically:

    Turn 1:
    Gengar uses Substitute, Arceus uses Shadow Claw to break the Sub.

    Now turn 2 can actually get a bit interesting from here. Like people have said, Arceus can use ExtremeSpeed to make you Disable that instead, which is not a total loss at all. You just Disabled its most powerful attack. Still, you can just use Substitute again to scout what the Arceus user would do. If he tries to ExtremeSpeed, you just got yourself a free Substitute and you can Focus Blast the thing at your leisure. If it uses Shadow Claw, you're back to Shadow Claw / ExtremeSpeed mindgames, which you generally have >3 attempts to get right, which is pretty good.

    Obviously, this Gengar set will completely fail against Jolly Arceus, but if people are using LO or CB Terrakion as an Arceus check (which I know some people are), then Gengar should definitely be considered.

    Still, Gengar is a really iffy Pokemon in Ubers.
  5. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Scarf is fine. It's a bit weak and very frail but it checks quite a number of things that few others can boast about. Gengar can also spinblock to make up for its weak damages although it's obviously not going to be very reliable. However, with Forretresses sometimes going Toxic these days it might just work /shrug

    LO 4 attacks seems like a worse Ghost Arceus to me (don't even say that Gengar doesn't take an Arceus slot - at that point you usually have better options). Ghost Arceus is faster, can Fire Blast and Ice Beam instead of HP Fire and Icy Wind, respectively, and Judgment is more powerful than LO Shadow Ball. Oh and he's much bulkier and can use Recover. The only advantages Gengar have are Toxic and Ground immunities, which would mean a lot if he didn't get knocked out by a slight breeze trying to make use of them.

    Idk how I feel about Gengar since it seems mediocre at best but I guess it does have a few unique qualities that could be exploited. Still, his "okay" power combined with extreme squishiness will leave me some doubt.
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I used Gengar in Ubers earlier and got disappointed by it. Its attacks are piss weak, check out firecape's calculations and this:

    Scarf Gengar Shadow Ball vs max HP Lugia 43.8% - 51.9% ( This is not even a 2HKO at full health)

    It does not OHKO Mewtwo at +0, deals much less damage compared to any other Uber Scarf user ( Kyogre, Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyurem-W are a few examples ).

    Jibaku has a point about Gengar being immune to Toxic so it walls Toxic Forretress lol, but Forretress can set up on Gengar too if you lack Hidden Power Fire or the weather conditions are unfavorable. Tentacruel will beat Gengar easily and Excadrill can now OHKO you with Mold Breaker Earthquake.

    Gengar's most powerful attack is Shadow Ball ( outside of Sludge Bomb ), that's only the same strength as Garchomp's Dragon Claw. At least Hydreigon gets Draco Meteor to compensate for its average Special Attack.

    LO Gengar sucks in Ubers, too slow/frail ( Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A are all stronger (Seed Flare in Shaymin-S's case) with more powerful moves)

    Focus Blast vs 252/0 Normal Arceus 50.5% - 59.5% <-- This is embarrassing. I mean how can you revenge Normal Arceus when you can sometimes even fail to 2HKO it ( when it holds leftovers ) with a shaky move? Scarf Terrakion and Heatran ( Sun boosted Overheat! ) are much better checks to Arceus. Funny thing is Scarf Chandelure is a fantastic Arceus check even without Shadow Tag. Gengar unfortunately does not have any powerful STABs.

    Sorry, but I am leaning towards a rejection here.
  7. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I have run Scarf Gengar reasonably effectively on the team that I'm testing Beartic with, but I am very borderline on this. It's really iffy. I only used Gengar on that team because it was the only thing that could loosely check all of my weaknesses (I needed a revenge killer that could revenge kill all Rayquaza variants, check ExtremeKiller and provide a Ground resist/immune). Needless to say, this was quite specific and very situational. In general, I can't really see Gengar doing that well. 130 SpA is nice, but Shadow Ball isn't. 110 Speed is also nice, but isn't good enough for something so frail. I'd appreciate it if you provided with some logs of Gengar performing in non-situational places (I've had enough experience where Gengar works, but it's the only thing that could have come close to the job I needed done) so I can judge how it performs in general.
  8. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    I will approve scarf if only for its nifty speed and immunities.

    destiny bond definitely is AC material, i would argue it even deserves a slash next to trick

    i'm also not in favour of LO, too weak, too frail; why use it at all?
  9. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Oh my god I am so iffy on this. Life Orb is definitely out. I would honestly rather use Arceus, which is by far bulkier, faster, can set up, and has a recovery move. I am not so sure about the Scarf set either. Firstly, as many of the other QC membes said, Destiny Bond NEEDS a slash there, probably before Trick. The thing is, that that's where its niche ends. It can't even OHKO unboosted Mewtwo, how sad (81.92 - 96.61%), and these would usually grab a boost before you switch in. Choiced Destiny Bond or Shadow Ball is so easy to defeat, you are turned into set up bait within a blink of an eye. Switch out and then Destiny Bond? Sure, I'll just switch out. I too want to see some logs of this set in action.
  10. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    So, I'm rejected Life Orb off the bat here. Its weak, frail has nothing over Ghost Arceus, in short outclassed. Just remove it.

    Now onto Scarf, Scarf is just resting on the cusp of viability in Ubers tbh. I guess, your speed and immunities are helping to differentiate you from Ghostceus, but apart from that you correctly said, its one of those niche glue pokemon which are needed by certain teams. I'm still on the fence about this. I'll test it and get back to you.
  11. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Okay, I'm going to approve the Scarf set only. There's nothing particularly wrong with the LO set per se, it's just not good enough for Ubers. Gengar's excellent Speed with a Scarf makes it usable as a Pokemon that you can revenge kill a decent amount of threats with while having excellent immunities and Trick in the process.

    But damn this was hard to decide, though. I was this close to rejecting the entire thing, but Scarf is JUST usable. If you want to know how close the approval for Scarf was, just ask James Magnussen how much he lost the 100m freestyle by. =)

    QC APPROVED 1/3 - ONLY for the Scarf set!
  12. gookie

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    qc 2/3 for scarf
  13. barry4ever

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    [qc]3/3[/qc]

    for scarf set only mind you!
  14. pie cream

    pie cream

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    I don't know if this is important or not but he hasn't been on since july 17 :P
  15. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
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    ^ That. If you guys don't mind me doing it(already passed QC, and its only 1 set) I could get it up, though it'll take me a while with school and what not.
  16. Garganator

    Garganator

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    Sry, I was off for a long while, some personal issues. I'll write this as soon as possible (just 3-4 days max, maybe faster). Again, sry for this.
  17. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    I'm willing to write this up if possible, it's past QC and Garganator hasn't been on since the 8th.
  18. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Is this analysis still being worked on? Also please remove the Life Orb set. Life Orb Gengar sucks in Ubers because it is outclassed completely by many threats.

    This analysis needs to mention how weak Scarf Gengar is compared to things like Scarf Zekrom and Kyogre. It's only used for certain small niches such as revenge killing all variants of Rayquaza and picking off ExtremeKiller Arceus. Highest SpA of all Ghost-types is also pretty underwhelming in Ubers when your main STAB is only base 80 power.

    This analysis will be given to other people if the original poster does not respond. Ask Nexus for the reservation if anyone is interested to write this up.
  19. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    He hasn't been on since Aug 8, let pokemon0078 do it.
  20. TrollFreak

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  21. Nexus

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    Yeah, go ahead write it.
  22. TheStarRapper

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    I have pretty good experience using Scarf Gengar in ubers, and I would say that Perish Song is also incredible for removing any pressuring (and killing last mon) boosted CM Arceus form. Might be worth a slash somewhere. As a whole Gengar's support moves (DBond, Trick, Perish Song) tend to do better than his attacking moves. I'd rather use Trick than Shadow Ball against anything but a nearly dead Lugia, I'd rather use Trick against a Ferrothorn than Focus Blast. I have used him to great effect on high ranking teams, rest assured.
  23. trickroom

    trickroom
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    However, if you Tricked your Choice Scarf away, you can no longer revenge kill things you should be, such as +1 Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Darkrai, non Scarf Shaymin-S, weakened Ghost Arceus, Scarf Dialga and Jolly ExtremeKiller Arceus. That just makes Gengar lost its purpose as a revenge killer. Without Choice Scarf, Gengar isn't exactly fast enough to be a revenge killer as you get outsped by Mewtwo, Shaymin-S, Darkrai and every Scarf user / weather abuser.

    Mentioning Perish Song is fine by me but it should not be slashed. In fact I think Thunder should because it is your strongest option vs Kyogre and Ho-Oh, both who would otherwise wall you to death.
  24. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    TrollFreak, are you still doing this? Cos if so, Nexus just make him the original poster if you may!
  25. TrollFreak

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    I am, jeez Furry, just came home from a trip :x

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