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Ubers Gengar

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Blue Jay, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Overview
    ########

    This generation bestowed unto Gengar a Mega Evolution and, with it, one of the most powerful abilities in the game, Shadow Tag. In a metagame focused around strategic switching and synergistic teambuilding in order to handle as many threats as possible, the ability to trap and eliminate one or more opposing Pokemon is devastating, often creating an exploitable weakness for a teammate to take advantage of. Boasting an enormous base 170 Special Attack and excellent base 130 Speed, as well as gems such as Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Perish Song in its movepool, Mega Gengar is more than capable of removing most Pokemon in the metagame from an opposing team. Although its awful bulk, combined with its inability to OHKO most Pokemon in the tier without a super effective coverage move, often forces it to sacrifice itself to eliminate a threat, the advantage that removing a crucial opposing Pokemon can bring can often decide battles.


    It's A Trap! (Offensive Mega Gengar)
    ########
    name: It's A Trap! (Offensive Mega Gengar)
    move 1: Taunt
    move 2: Destiny Bond
    move 3: Sludge Wave
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Gengarite
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    With the combination of Taunt, Destiny Bond, and two attacking moves, Mega Gengar achieves optimal versatility in the number of threats it can remove. Taunt cripples defensive Pokemon, leaving them unable to heal, inflict crippling status, use support moves, or phaze Mega Gengar without Dragon Tail. Combined with Destiny Bond, it also helps Mega Gengar sacrifice itself to eliminate numerous Pokemon that it otherwise could not, as bulky attackers often threaten it more than it can threaten them. Its attacking moves allow it to annihilate many Pokemon that they hit super effectively and overpower defensive Pokemon that cannot threaten it. Sludge Wave is its most powerful STAB move and engulfs Fairy- and Grass-types. It can be used interchangeably with Sludge Bomb, which is slightly weaker but more likely to poison, which can occasionally be advantageous. Focus Blast is powerful and has good coverage alongside Poison, obliterating many Steel-, Rock-, Normal-, and Dark-types despite its unreliable accuracy.

    Mega Gengar also has many other options for attacking moves, which can be adapted to the needs of a team. Shadow Ball can also be used in place of either attacking move for STAB with good neutral coverage. However, Shadow Ball lacks important targets as defensive Psychic-types typically lose against Taunt and Sludge Wave, whereas offensive Psychic-types often threaten to outspeed and OHKO, and Ghost-types are able to switch out of Shadow Tag freely. It is also no more powerful than Focus Blast if both hit neutrally. Hidden Power Fire can be used to incinerate Scizor, which otherwise threatens Mega Gengar with Bullet Punch and Pursuit. It can also damage other Steel-types, especially in sun, although it is powerless in rain. Thunder can be used for coverage against Water- and Flying-types, but has poor accuracy in the absence of rain. Energy Ball can be used to KO weakened Ground-, Rock-, and Water-types. Hidden Power Rock 2HKOes Ho-Oh, allowing it to be destroyed on a predicted switch in as Gengar Mega Evolves or after switching into Stealth Rock. It has little utility otherwise, however. Icy Wind allows Gengar to anti-lead Deoxys-S and OHKO Landorus-T, Rayquaza, Gliscor, and Garchomp, but it is weaker than a STAB move against almost all other Pokemon.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs and nature capitalize on Mega Gengar's best stats, allowing it to outspeed the vast majority of the unboosted metagame and be as destructive as possible. Due to its highly specialized stats, alternative spreads are barely viable.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Gengar must Mega Evolve relatively unharmed before it can trap an opposing Pokemon, which can be a challenge due to its abysmal bulk. It can, however, use its immunities to Normal-, Fighting-, and Ground-type moves (prior to Mega Evolution) as well as Toxic to switch in unharmed, while its four resistances can also allow it to switch in quite safely. It should be switched into Pokemon it can force out in order to allow it to Mega Evolve unharmed.

    It can be important to investigate the set of a potential target for Gengar, especially against more versatile threats such as Kyogre and Xerneas. Mega Gengar is usually too frail to afford mistakes and can only handle Choice Scarf users locked into resisted or weak moves. Once it has trapped an opposing Pokemon, it should proceed to eliminate the threat in the most reliable manner possible; walls and support Pokemon should typically be Taunted and then worn down with attacks, as they pose little threat, whereas against offensive Pokemon, Destiny Bond, sometimes alongside Taunt, will often be needed. Of course, whenever it can OHKO with one of its attacks, it should.

    Team Options
    ========

    As Mega Gengar excels at removing various Pokemon, especially defensive ones, its best teammates are sweepers which can exploit the weakness created in an opposing team. Powerful setup sweepers such as Xerneas, Arceus, and Electric Arceus, as well as powerful Choice Scarf users such as Kyogre and Zekrom can overwhelm teams once their checks have been removed. Teammates such as Xerneas and Arceus also help to protect Mega Gengar from an opposing Scizor's Pursuit, as an opponent might rely on Scizor to check them. It should be noted however that as Mega Gengar cannot trap Ghost-types; sweepers checked by Aegislash, Ghost Arceus, or Giratina formes will require additional support in order to sweep successfully. Teammates with Volt Switch or U-turn, such as Zekrom and Scizor, can help Mega Gengar switch in safely, which it often struggles to do otherwise.


    Perish Trapper
    ########
    name: Perish Trapper
    move 1: Perish Song
    move 2: Taunt
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Disable / Substitute
    item: Gengarite
    evs: 248 HP / 84 SpD / 176 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    Mega Gengar can also opt for a less offensive set that excels at removing Defog users for teams that rely significantly on entry hazards and can also remove Choice Band and Choice Specs Pokemon more effectively, while maintaining the ability to eliminate some defensive Pokemon. Perish Song combined with Shadow Tag allows Mega Gengar to force an opposing Pokemon to faint by trapping it on the field until the final Perish Song turn, at which point Mega Gengar can switch out to safety, while the opposing Pokemon is forced to remain on the field. In order to do so, however, Mega Gengar must survive several turns successfully.

    Protect is effective in preventing damage every other turn, as well as allowing Mega Gengar to Mega Evolve safely. Combined with Disable, it can prevent an opponent from using one of its moves against Gengar. As many support Pokemon and walls only have one attacking move, or only one attacking move which can hurt Mega Gengar significantly thanks to its resistances and immunities, this can prevent damage quite effectively. It also forces Choice-locked Pokemon to Struggle, as they are only able to use one move. Substitute can be used instead to mitigate the damage Mega Gengar takes, as well as preventing opposing Pokemon crippling it with status. Disable is more effective against Choice-locked Pokemon and support Pokemon, while Substitute is more effective against Pokemon with multiple moves which can hurt Mega Gengar. Taunt in the final moveslot prevents phazing with any move other than Dragon Tail, which otherwise neuters the set by allowing Pokemon to escape Mega Gengar and Perish Song. Hypnosis can also be used to help to prevent damage, but it has unreliable accuracy, lasts for an unpredictable number of sleep turns, and is difficult to fit.

    Set Details
    ========

    The Speed investment allows Mega Gengar to outspeed Arceus, as other threats it could outspeed with more investment are too threatening to handle with this set. The remaining EVs maximize Mega Gengar's special bulk, as it has no attacking moves and most attacks in the tier are specially based. 248 HP EVs give Gengar an odd HP number, allowing it to use Substitute four times.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    In order to use the Shadow Tag ability, Gengar must Mega Evolve first. With Protect, it can do so unhampered against any Pokemon. Once it traps a Pokemon, it should first incapacitate it as much as possible before using Perish Song and stalling it out with Protect. Against walls that rarely carry any attacking moves that hurt Gengar, such as Lugia, Chansey and RestTalk Xerneas, Taunt should be used first to prevent phazing or crippling status, as well as support moves such as Aromatherapy. Against Pokemon which only have one attacking move, such as most support Arceus and RestTalk Xerneas, Taunt should be followed up by Protect and Disable, preventing their attacking move with Disable and other moves with Taunt. Against Choice Specs or Band Choiced Pokemon, Disable can be used as soon as they are locked into a move, forcing them to Struggle. Once an opposing Pokemon has been neutered effectively, Perish Song should be used and its turns stalled with Protect, as well as Taunt where necessary. On the final Perish Song turn, Mega Gengar should be switched out to a Pokemon that is least likely to be harmed by the opposing Pokemon, as it would faint alongside the opposing Pokemon otherwise.

    The main niche of this set is to remove Defog users without sacrificing Mega Gengar in the process for teams that rely heavily on their entry hazards, such as Sticky Web teams and teams with Spikes or Toxic Spikes users. It must be noted that in the absence of Sticky Web to reduce the Speed of opposing Arceus, Gengar must have Mega Evolved in order to outspeed and Taunt them before they Defog.

    Team Options
    ========

    As the main advantage of Perish trapper Gengar is the ability to eliminate most Defog users without sacrificing itself, it should be paired with users of powerful entry hazards in addition to Stealth Rock. Smeargle and Shuckle have access to Sticky Web, giving teammates a devastating Speed advantage against grounded opponents. The Deoxys formes, Klefki, and Ferrothorn are effective Spikes users, while Scolipede and Forretress are effective users of both Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

    Other Options
    ########

    As Mega Gengar's primary role is to trap and eliminate Pokemon, its other options are quite limited. It can use Will-O-Wisp in order to cripple physical attackers, but it usually struggles to fit the move into its sets and will still take significant damage with no effective way to heal it from powerful physical attackers. It also has access to Pain Split, which allows it to heal, somewhat, but due to its poor bulk, this is rarely a worthwhile option. Dazzling Gleam has good coverage, but fails to OHKO even most super effective targets due to its low Base Power and is not much stronger than Sludge Wave against most its targets. Knock Off can be used to hamper opposing Pokemon by removing their items, but this is usually not helpful as Gengar is most effective at trapping and eliminating threats rather than weakening them.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    Mega Gengar is difficult to check in the traditional sense, as it can usually choose its matchups favorably with Shadow Tag.

    **Pursuit**: Pursuit users can trap Gengar themselves on the turn it Mega Evolves, thereby preventing it from removing a Pokemon of its choice. However, Mega Gengar can still eliminate the Pursuit user itself with Destiny Bond, and Dark-type Pursuit users are commonly OHKOed by Focus Blast, while Scizor is OHKOed by Hidden Power Fire.

    **Ghost-types**: Ghost-type Pokemon are unaffected by Shadow Tag, allowing them to switch out freely against it. Many can also threaten Gengar with STAB Shadow Sneak, and Giratina-O and Aegislash have enough special bulk to survive a Shadow Ball from Mega Gengar and OHKO in return.

    **Priority**: Super effective priority moves, such as Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, usually OHKO Mega Gengar before it can move. However, Sucker Punch fails if Mega Gengar does not attack and can still be exploited with Destiny Bond. When Mega Gengar is weakened, other priority moves can also pick it off.

    **Choice Scarf**: Choice Scarf users can typically outspeed and OHKO Mega Gengar, allowing them to revenge kill it or force it out on a double switch.

    **Shed Shell**: This held item allows a Pokemon to escape Shadow Tag freely but has no other utility, which severely limits its holder.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  2. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Minor nitpick but put the STABs as Move 3 and the coverage moves as Move 4.

    Mention in set details that Taunt/DBond means you only get two attacks to work with, so pick the ones that fit your team's needs the best. Also mention that HP Fire is weak as balls in rain.

    Running both STABs is also viable imo.
  3. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Perish song prolly deserves a set. Commenting more when I'm sober
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  4. Piexplode

    Piexplode

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    Pursuit can be split into basically tyranitar + scizor, since noone uses the dog, Ttar is weak to focus blast, (Mega-)Scizor to HP Fire, and whatever set you run you can only handle one.
  5. orch

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    Sludge Wave should be main, not Sludge Bomb. You're using Gengar as a revenge killer, so you might need that extra 3% damage to ensure a kill. If you're trying to fish poison chance because your gengar will die or something, just use destiny bond.
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  6. Furai

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    PerishTrap is a set. Sludge Wave > Sludge Bomb as orch said. Will-O-Wisp allows you to flee from Pursuiters which can be cool. Knock Off is also a great move on this but I'm not sure if it's worthy of a slash, so AC both.

    Make sure you put a space before and after a slash

    Running both STABs is indeed viable, Fireburn, but Focus Blast and Sludge Wave already cover all you need. Shadow Ball is the same as Focus Blast, and Ghosts can escape from you anyway.
  7. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Sludge Bomb is worth it IMO since >3% damage usually isn't worth it over a 20% better chance to Poison. That's just me though.
  8. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    A poison isn't going to help a paper-fragile mon like Gengar 9.9

    Get the kill, don't rely on hax. Only use it if desperate o_o
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  9. Unowninator

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    I really think it should be mentioned in the overview that, unlike Wobbuffet & Gothitelle, Gengar can't trap anything until after it Mega-evolves.

    I also feel that the loss of Levitate makes it vulnerable to Earthquake & Sticky Web.
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  10. Fireburn

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    Without Shadow Ball you get walled by Landorus-T and stonewalled by Aegislash which is worth mentioning IMO, I was thinking just a set details mention for running dual STAB regardless.
  11. Sweep

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    1. Slash Sludge Wave either before or after Sludge Bomb, though I don't care which. They're about equally good and there are situations where Bomb will outperform Wave (like on a Pokemon that cannot be 2HKOd by either move but can be 2HKOd by Sludge Bomb+poison). 3% isn't a big difference IMO.

    2. IMO Hidden Power Fire is really situational and not worth the slash. Focus Blast hits Ferrothorn as hard as HP Fire, so the only real target is Mega Scizor (albeit an important one, but Focus Blast is definitely more consistent overall). I'd move it to Set Comments. Agree/disagree other QC?

    3. Energy Ball to Other Options. What are you trying to hit, Somalia?

    4. Protect can get a mention on the offensive set, maybe in OO to help scout/give it a turn to mega evolve. Rarely worth it though.

    5. Perish Song definitely deserves a set. What a frustrating Pokemon!
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  12. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Sludge Bomb is better initially, to hit whatever switches into Gengar before it Mega Evolves and hopefully poison it. Unless someone can provide relevant calcs for Sludge Wave > Sludge Bomb, I think a minuscule difference in damage is not worth a solid chance to poison. Gengar isn't always in OHKO or be OHKO'd situations either.

    The slashes are as Melee Mewtwo suggested them, but I do believe they should be Focus Blast/Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball.

    Is PerishTrap really ever justifiable? I mean, it's much better against Choice Band/Specs mons and still good against some defensive things, but does it actually remove any relevant check to some sweeper better than the main set does? If not it's just an inferior set with occasional advantages, which I don't see as being worth advocating for anyone to use. But since 3 QC members are for it I'll put it in, at least for now.

    I agree with HP Fire not being slashed, it was originally after a discussion with Melee Mewtwo but we decided it wasn't worthy. I just didn't change it yet and this is WIP as hell.

    Energy Ball was also put there by Melee Mewtwo.

    Protect is OO at best.

    This is a rough skeleton I threw together in a few minutes, can we please wait until it at least makes it to QC? There are analyses in need of stamps with less responses.
  13. Unowninator

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    Wouldn't Giga Drain be the superior Grass attack? If not, why not?
  14. orch

    orch

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    Vs Scarf/LO/Ebelt/Geoxern (Physically defensive) Xern

    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 368-434 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 390-458 (98.9 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    31.2% extra chance of ohko is significant in this case, especially facing a geoxern with psyshock.

    There's also few other oddball stuff like CM Fairyceus and Abomasnow getting extra chance of OHKO, especially after SR. This applies for 2hkos on a bunch of other mons too. I can provide calc if you want em. Higher chance of killing something is always better than being hit with godawful defense that Gengar has. :|
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  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Eball hits Groudon which may seem small but it's huge with Zekrom being good. Gengar is something you build based on the team's needs so I figured all those niche coverage moves can just get moves section mentions.

    Bomb = Wave , it's completely player preference and super niche scenarios where one ends up better than the other. I dunno what to do in a situation like this, guess flip a coin and then give the other option second slash.

    Re Shadow Ball: Trying to hit Aegis is useless because you can't trap it. You miss out on Lando-T but that's the only mon, I guess it's good enough to slash though.
  16. Melee Mewtwo

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    Looks good, just to nitpick something, I like the sludge wave moveslot to be 3 instead of 4 just cause picking off fairies and STAB should have more priority than Focus Blast. (not saying change slashes, just the moveset order)
    QC Approves 1/3
    [​IMG]
  17. Hack

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    Taunt looks good, Energy Ball is kinda shit imo, mention HP Rock while you are at it with HP Fire. Icy Wind somewhere in OO to anti lead Deoxys-S?

    On Psong, 176 speed to outspeed Arceus is better unless you really wanna outspeed Darkrai, speed tie with Mewtwo for whatever reason. The leftover evs can go into sdef to cushion hits from support arc better (usually what you wanna trap with that set among things). Hypnosis in set details- can sometimes turn a match around and help you vs a 2 atks mon that you normally should be able to beat.

    QC approved 2/3
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  18. Blue Jay

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    I am amateur how to calc even
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2014
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  19. Hack

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    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 224-264 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Don't forget mega tho :)
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  20. Unowninator

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    Say, how about using a Modest nature? I did some research & these are the Pokemon that it loses the Speed "race" to:
    -Mewtwo* (speed tie)
    -Shaymin's Sky Form
    -Darkrai
    -Timid/Jolly Arceus
    -Tornadus's Therain Forrm

    Those seem to be the only Pokemon you lose out on, in exchange for the power. Is it worth it?
  21. Fireburn

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    Not being able to outspeed support Arceus and DBond it is bad. You also lose to Palkia before mega evolving which can be important. Keep Timid imo.

    One more comment:

    You can potentially mess with Sucker Punch users by going for Destiny Bond and then letting them kill you, since that takes out the SP user if I'm not mistaken.
  22. Unowninator

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    I'm not saying you should only use Modest; just mention it/slash it for preference. Edit: I mean, surely the extra power would result in some other OHKO's/2HKO's, right?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2014
  23. Melee Mewtwo

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    Timid is miles better, no reason to use modest ever. A fair few of those mons you listed are important and Fireburn mentioned some others.
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  24. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I dun wrote this up.
  25. polop

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    QC: 3/3

    There's nothing really wrong with this. A simple analysis for a simple mon IMO.

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