OU Gengar

[magic9mushroom]

Split from Most Dominant Pokemon in History II.

that wasn't me. in any case, the opposite of that is true also. rhydon/golem deals insane amounts of damage to all special attackers bar egg. 3hko vs lax/tauros, which is pretty much the same as the hardest hitting special attackers.

Comparing KOs without crits and secondary effects significantly overrates Rhydon and Golem since they have neither. The special attackers all have high chances to 2HKO Tauros once those are factored in (41% for Starmie Psychic, 59% for Zam Psychic, something over 40% for Lapras Blizzard, 36% for Zapdos Thunderbolt, 85% for Articuno Blizzard) while Rhydon only has 15% and Golem has something similar.

Golem usually doesn't 3HKO Lax (25%). Zam/Pras/Zap usually do.

Rocks do a lot more to Chansey, yes, but they also are 2HKOed by it, which none of the specials are (well, Starmie occasionally is).

what about gengar? isn't that gengar's number 1 complaint? that it's wholly mediocre offensively (and by mediocre, that's euphemism for sucks major cockballs). even his explosion blows asshole.

Sure, though it does significant damage to everything besides Chansey with just 1 move. Night Shades add up.

Also sleep leading is a thing and Gengar does that thing fairly well. Alakazam/Psychic Starmie leads exist because Gengar does.

defensively, it's pretty meh too all things considered. if you don't factor in absorbing explosions which clearly it does better than everything, it does what else defensively? take se attacks from everything in the game [besides chansey] basically.

Only reliable Dragonite counter in the game. Great Cloyster counter since it isn't scared of Explosion. Helps vs. Lapras/Slowbro(/Articuno) with Tbolt + fuckoff hueg Special bulk. Forces out Starmie that don't run Psychic (which is still a lot of them). Pivot vs. Lax/Tauros if your prediction skills are sufficiently rad (or just laugh if Lax doesn't have Earthquake - note that half the reason Lax usually runs EQ > Surf is specifically TO hit Gengar).

gengar's shit.

Gengar's a crucial part of the meta, defining the lead metagame and the sets of many of the top Pokemon.

 

[Borat]

i'm not following the whole "quote one thing at time" method of responding. what are you trying to say here exactly? that gengar's just as good as goldon?

Comparing KOs without crits and secondary effects significantly overrates Rhydon and Golem since they have neither. The special attackers all have high chances to 2HKO Tauros once those are factored in (41% for Starmie Psychic, 59% for Zam Psychic, something over 40% for Lapras Blizzard, 36% for Zapdos Thunderbolt, 85% for Articuno Blizzard) while Rhydon only has 15% and Golem has something similar.

what exactly are you trying to say here? what's the main argument? i'm clearly not getting it. that zam can ko tauros more easily? ok.

Rocks do a lot more to Chansey, yes, but they also are 2HKOed by it, which none of the specials are (well, Starmie occasionally is).

again, ok, but what about gengar? thats the topic title.

Alakazam/Psychic Starmie leads exist because Gengar does.

i'm not a big believer in lead metas or whatever, but other common sleep leads would be egg, jynx, maybe hypno. you'd still run starmie/zam lead against those. and what about against other starmie/zam? same shit. gengar hardly shapes the lead meta, sorry. that is, unless you mean gengar leads are at a SEVERE disadvantage vs starmie/zam leads to the point where it's pretty stupid to run gengar lead, alright.

gengar's definitely crucial in the meta, he's the reason why lax runs eq over surf (that and counter zam/chansey). part of why counter zam/chansey is gimmicky IS because lax runs eq, gengar's a driving force behind that, but this is all circular logic/catch-22 and impossible to theorize what has the bigger impact. gengar has a role to play, alright, he keeps shit in check by existing. this is the exact same as a gsc starmie, he exists simply to check spikers, but using starmie is actually a hindrance to most teams imo. i'll admit gengar has a crucial role to play in the BIGGER picture (i.e. meta), but i wouldn't want to be the one running him as he's definitely an inferior option.

still not 100% sure what your argument is after all's said and done. to make things more concrete, i think gengar is a deserving OU pokemon who's impact on the metagame is far higher than his game-to-game impact. his consistency is low, contribution is a total wild card, and say what you will but gengar 9/10 games will be inferior to goldon. goldon takes 30% from explosion, and just as much from most exploder's other attacks, but gengar's taking like 85% or whatever if he predicts wrong from egg/lax/golem (ohko). i guess gengar can reliably switch into... gengar? and cloyster, but stop bringing up cloyster as if he's some rby staple. cloyster is another BARELY ou pokemon.

gengar's shit in the sense that this topic branched off from one titled "the most dominant pokemon in history", and i think rby gengar is a farcry from that. in fact, golem/rhydon are both far cries from that. i don't see how there's even an argument, just lots of nitpicking. ultimately, gengar is BARELY top 10 in rby, if that. he's only "solidly top 15", that's "squeaking by out" to me considering there's like 15 ou pokemon altogether. "starmie has a 25% higher chance to 2hko factoring in ches vs tauros", okay dude. i'll come back if you're willing to make a more challenging claim as a whole.

 

[Bedschibaer]

So what exactly is the argument here, i couldn't really figure from that thread. Is it wether gengar is/should be OU or not or how well it places in OU rankings?

 

[Borat]

precisely what i don't understand. it seems like magic9mushroom is correcting me, but at the same time not disputing any argument on a whole? rephrasing if you will. a lot of "sure, buts" make for a very hard to follow argument.

 

[magic9mushroom]

i'm not following the whole "quote one thing at time" method of responding. what are you trying to say here exactly? that gengar's just as good as goldon?

I'm trying to say that you're saying a bunch of stupid and wrong shit which needs to be corrected lest it mislead people.

what exactly are you trying to say here? what's the main argument? i'm clearly not getting it. that zam can ko tauros more easily? ok.

3hko vs lax/tauros, which is pretty much the same as the hardest hitting special attackers.

You say wrong things -> I tell you that these things are wrong. This is not a complex idea. You don't like me telling you that you're wrong? Don't be wrong.

again, ok, but what about gengar? thats the topic title.

Your claim is that GolDon are way better than Gengar because reasons. I am point-by-point refuting those reasons.

i'm not a big believer in lead metas or whatever, but other common sleep leads would be egg, jynx, maybe hypno. you'd still run starmie/zam lead against those. and what about against other starmie/zam? same shit. gengar hardly shapes the lead meta, sorry. that is, unless you mean gengar leads are at a SEVERE disadvantage vs starmie/zam leads to the point where it's pretty stupid to run gengar lead, alright.

...What?! No, that's not how leads work at all. If you know your opponent is leading Jynx, you don't run Starmie or Alakazam lead (since they just get slept for minor damage), you lead either something that outspeeds and threatens massive damage on Jynx (Tauros, Dodrio, Ninetales, etc) or something that outspeeds and sleeps it (Gengar). Starmie is decent vs. Egg lead (though Jynx is way better and Gengar's somewhat better) but Zam is again total shit.

Alakazam and Psychic Starmie leads are used specifically because they are likely (>50%) to KO Gengar before it can land Hypnosis on them and at the very least deal massive damage to it for the privilege; they are anti-leads to Gengar (but suck as leads vs. Jynx). Take out Gengar and they disappear.

gengar's definitely crucial in the meta, he's the reason why lax runs eq over surf (that and counter zam/chansey). part of why counter zam/chansey is gimmicky IS because lax runs eq, gengar's a driving force behind that, but this is all circular logic/catch-22 and impossible to theorize what has the bigger impact. gengar has a role to play, alright, he keeps shit in check by existing. this is the exact same as a gsc starmie, he exists simply to check spikers, but using starmie is actually a hindrance to most teams imo. i'll admit gengar has a crucial role to play in the BIGGER picture (i.e. meta), but i wouldn't want to be the one running him as he's definitely an inferior option.

Call me back when GSC Starmie affects GSC Raikou's set. Or GSC Exeggutor's set. Or anything's set not named Forretress.

goldon takes 30% from explosion, and just as much from most exploder's other attacks, but gengar's taking like 85% or whatever if he predicts wrong from egg/lax/golem (ohko).

Kindly actually run your numbers. Egg Psychic doesn't do that much more to Gengar than GolDon (max 53% vs. 69%). Gengar has 358 Special in RBY, remember? It's bulkier than Alakazam vs. non-Psychic special attacks.

Also, yes, Gengar takes more damage than GolDon from Exploder sets designed to preferentially hit Gengar. Lax Surf vs. Rocks does like 90%. Egg Mega Drain vs. Rocks is similar.

Not to mention that if Gengar does switch into something it doesn't like, it's fast enough to use its own boom and rescue the situation, whereas Golem/Rhydon typically can't because they're slow as fuck.

i guess gengar can reliably switch into... gengar? and cloyster, but stop bringing up cloyster as if he's some rby staple. cloyster is another BARELY ou pokemon.

STAB Surf with a 75% flinch rate and optional free switchout is no joke. I have NFC why Cloy's not used more, it controls games like nobody's business.

i don't see how there's even an argument, just lots of nitpicking.

> Borat makes an argument based on details
> Borat's details are wrong
-> GEE I WONDER WHAT THAT SAYS ABOUT BORAT'S ARGUMENT

I don't need to make a full counteressay because your argument is based on false statements and is thus garbage.

ultimately, gengar is BARELY top 10 in rby, if that. he's only "solidly top 15", that's "squeaking by out" to me considering there's like 15 ou pokemon altogether. "starmie has a 25% higher chance to 2hko factoring in ches vs tauros", okay dude. i'll come back if you're willing to make a more challenging claim as a whole.

Are Jynx and Zapdos also "barely squeaking into OU" by your measure? IMO Gengar's pretty clearly better than those and competitive for a teamslot with the Rocks depending on what else is on the team.

 

[Longfellow]

I'm interested in hearing this subject discussed without the bickering.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I too would like to jump in and discuss Gengar without the bickering and with a clearer idea of the thread's purpose/main question. Gengar is a crucial player on one of my most common teams so I definitely have thoughts.

 

[Jorgen]

You use a lot of Cray Gengar, no? Mostly over Hypnosis iirc. It cheeses Egg matchups, which can be pretty nice if you want to get a Rhydon going quickly, or to remove a Psychic resist for Reflect Zam, or to just get Egg out of the way or at least severely crippled for its own sake.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I do use Cray Gengar; and more controversially I tend not to run Explosion on him. Gengar has a major selling point that hasn't been listed anywhere else in discussions about Gengar - everyone talks about how he's the fastest sleeper, his normal immunity, his ability to shut down wrap, and his ability to boom, but from my experience one of the most valuable things he does is take sleep.

There are lots of discussions about the 'best' choice to take your sleep, and they usually amount to whether the Pokemon you let sleep 1) already did its job [such as putting something else to sleep] and therefore can take the sleep to activate the clause and get out of the way, or 2) has the highest likelihood of being able to wake up later. But let's look at Gengar in those two points: 1) Gengar is the *only* Pokemon that can still do his job - at least one of his vital jobs - even while asleep: he can still absorb explosions, you can still pivot-switch him into body-slams/h-beams/booms, and he can still block Wrap. 2) If you put him in the front of the right Pokemon he can still wake up and wreak havoc - continue to switch him in on Wraps and the Wrapper will keep wrapping and you'll likely wake up right there by the time the wrap cycle ends, or the Wrapper will switch out, in which case no harm no foul - there's no risk of eating an attack because the opponent is forced to Wrap or switch. You can also plant a sleeping Gengar in front of a Persian, a Razer Leafer, a non-S-Toss Chansey, and more and have good odds of waking up. I tried running Explosion on Gengar for a while but as has already been mentioned, Gengar's boom is so weak that using boom almost feels like the gimmick to me, and I'd much rather get him asleep than lose him entirely.

Even still, Gengar does require a huge amount of prediction to play right - anything that would sleep it would also just Psychic it to near-death, so you have to switch it INTO a predicted sleep in order to take it. But having an active Gengar is a real wild card and forces people to change up their play-style and if you play it right you can use it to your advantage. If people think your Gengar is going to boom at any moment, they play defensively, and you can capitalize on that. If people know you've got a Gengar in the wings they'll use earthquakes more than body slams, hyper beams, or explosions for fear you'll switch into them.

Of course, the prediction element is the more gimmicky element of using Gengar - I could write a whole post about the match-ups and how you can use the fact that you simply HAVE a Gengar to your advantage, but I understand that's more subjective and luck-based. But I definitely stand by using Gengar as a sleep-absorber instead of a boomer because the fact is that unlike anything else he can still serve a vital team function while asleep, and even can have a good chance of waking back up.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah I never really liked sleeping Gengar, nor using it as an Explosion absorber. If you guess wrong, every Exploder in the game can mess you up (outside of crap like Muk of course) and you lose loads of momentum in doing so.

Plus, sleeping Gengar means you miss out on Gengar's ability to support Chansey against Lapras, which is kind of a big deal. Lapras is scary. It's frankly the main reason why I'm always wary of running non-Chansey teams. Sleeping Gengar also means Tauros and Snorlax aren't inclined to toss out random EQs to catch it in the mid-game, which is one of the bigger perks you brought up. If it's sleeping, there's no risk to just spamming Body Slam, and Hyper Beam doesn't lock you in if it does no damage, so there's little risk to using it if Gengar is how you deal with it.

That being said, when Wrappers come into play, Gengar is a fantastic sleep absorber, as it then is super-likely to wake up when you want it to. It's also way more important in general for dealing with them. But we all already know how much better Gengar gets when Wrap is prevalent.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

I definitely agree that with a sleeping Gengar, Lapras is far more threatening. Using Gengar at all, if your opponent didn't have Wrap, is a huge trade-off and risk, I definitely won't argue that Gengar deserves a higher place in OU. But if you're using him anyway, why boom? If you had boomed already, Lapras is just as threatening (and awake against Lapras, you wouldn't boom anyway, you would use tbolt).

And your point that Snorlax/Tauros could toss body slams/h beams out there with impunity if your Gengar is asleep can still be beneficial to you - you can use that to your advantage. Let's say you switch sleeping Gengar into a Tauros Body Slam. You wanted to switch ANYWAY because you didn't want whatever was in to take the slam - let's say you wanted to bring in a Slowbro, or an Eggy, or a Snorlax or something else with good bulk and an offensive presence to take on the Tauros. Your Gengar is unfazed, of course, because the slam has no effect, but you still have no offensive presence. Tauros knows that, so you stay in, and Tauros body slams again, and you've just ticked one off of the sleep counter (this happens a LOT for exactly the reason you brought up - people don't "fear" slamming and don't see it as a risk/trade-off). But let's say you switch right out to whatever you wanted to switch for anyway. If Tauros earthquaked (which is even more likely if you predicted that second slam described earlier), you're better off because his quake does less damage to Lax, Eggy, Bro, etc. If Tauros body slammed ANYWAY, well, you were GOING to switch anyway, so it's a wash.

Highly circumstantial, I will not contest that, but still more valuable than a boomed Gengar.

 

[Borat]

But having an active Gengar is a real wild card and forces people to change up their play-style and if you play it right you can use it to your advantage. If people think your Gengar is going to boom at any moment, they play defensively, and you can capitalize on that. If people know you've got a Gengar in the wings they'll use earthquakes more than body slams, hyper beams, or explosions for fear you'll switch into them.

i disagree with this whole assessment. I've always found active gengars one of the least threatening things in ou, up there with active chanseys. there's no sleep to worry about (after the initial exchange), theres no paralysis, no stab attacks, probably no se attacks, even explosion is sorta meh. on the flip side, every thing bar persian or something equally crappy can hit gengar pretty hard. moreover, because he's not all that threatening of an active, then there's actually very little to be gained using "predicted" eqs. it's, as you call it, a pivot switch. it's to mitigate the bs/hb or whatever then switch to something else taking the eq. however, i actually think gengar used in this way is super predictable (since that's all he really does). a snorlax having just body slammed a gengar switching in, assuming sleep clause is active, has very little risk to just body slam again because gengar is severely outmatched in this case. sure you could stick around and tbolt/nshade for "free" 20%, but if YOU guess wrong you're taking 80%. facing opposing gengar is best described as a nuisance, rather than a threat.

I could write a whole post about the match-ups and how you can use the fact that you simply HAVE a Gengar to your advantage

you have to. and it has to matter enough to outweigh the fact that you don't have a real offensive threat like rhydon/golem. moreover, maintaining a healthy gengar (at with with regards to paralysis) is a high maintenance thing. gengar relies on his speed to be effective, to threaten tauros, yadda yadda. so apart from switching into explosions, or in your case, a predicted sleep, the only other times it shows up is on the aforementioned pivot bs/hb switch. again, it's really inconsequential for the lax to just bs again, because gengar is running the majority of the time in that matchup. the risk-reward of poking snorlax with a tbolt is not worth it the majority of the time. so against the average team, gengar has to think twice about switching into snorlax, tauros, chansey, jynx, starmie, slowbro, zapdos. he has no business at all going into golem, egg, zam unless it's a desperation move. hm i think that's everyone in ou. well alright then.

gengar's alright, but unless you're saying he's better than rhydon/golem, i don't see the point of this thread. that's my only argument, that it's inferior to both ground/rocks. whatever numbers m9m may cite is highly inconsequential without first making this claim. in any case, im not sure why pokemon like ninetails, dodrio, and megadrain egg are even brought up. i'm comfortable with comparing gengar to zapdos/jynx, but i dont think that helps your case with the whole rhydon/golem superiority thing.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

My earlier response covers this with a basic example:

And your point that Snorlax/Tauros could toss body slams/h beams out there with impunity if your Gengar is asleep can still be beneficial to you - you can use that to your advantage. Let's say you switch sleeping Gengar into a Tauros Body Slam. You wanted to switch ANYWAY because you didn't want whatever was in to take the slam - let's say you wanted to bring in a Slowbro, or an Eggy, or a Snorlax or something else with good bulk and an offensive presence to take on the Tauros. Your Gengar is unfazed, of course, because the slam has no effect, but you still have no offensive presence. Tauros knows that, so you stay in, and Tauros body slams again, and you've just ticked one off of the sleep counter (this happens a LOT for exactly the reason you brought up - people don't "fear" slamming and don't see it as a risk/trade-off). But let's say you switch right out to whatever you wanted to switch for anyway. If Tauros earthquaked (which is even more likely if you predicted that second slam described earlier), you're better off because his quake does less damage [than a body slam would have] to Lax, Eggy, Bro, etc. If Tauros body slammed ANYWAY, well, you were GOING to switch anyway, so it's a wash.

But I want to say that I've never indicated Gengar is better than Rhydon/Golem. I would never say that. I personally use Gengar and Golem on the same team. In my play-style, they don't take up the same slot, they serve different functions. Again, I'll reiterate that I don't think Gengar is a huge OU threat, I acknowledge he's definitely lower OU and gimmicky, and that even in expert hands a Gengar isn't going to shape the metagame in any huge fashion. BUT the point I want to make is that I use Gengar quite a bit, and I use him successfully in a way that runs counter to how most people might use the Gengar (the biggest being that I don't run Explosion, something most people consider a no-brainer staple on his moveset), and so I have thoughts on interesting ways to play him that I think were worth talking about :)

ETA: If this thread was specifically created to compare Gengar to Rhydon/Golem, then I apologize for taking this in a tangent direction. The original argument of the post wasn't very clear and I just ... wanted to talk about Gengar and this kind of seemed like the spot for it?

 

[magic9mushroom]

But let's look at Gengar in those two points: 1) Gengar is the *only* Pokemon that can still do his job - at least one of his vital jobs - even while asleep: he can still absorb explosions, you can still pivot-switch him into body-slams/h-beams/booms, and he can still block Wrap. 2) If you put him in the front of the right Pokemon he can still wake up and wreak havoc - continue to switch him in on Wraps and the Wrapper will keep wrapping and you'll likely wake up right there by the time the wrap cycle ends, or the Wrapper will switch out, in which case no harm no foul - there's no risk of eating an attack because the opponent is forced to Wrap or switch.

100% agreed, with the exception that Rhydon/Golem can eat booms while asleep as well (and wake up on Zapdos; Jolt's a bit more iffy tho because of Double Kick and that stupid crit rate). Of course, they can't throw sleep AND then absorb it.

(Secret shroomy technique: when leading Starm vs. Jynx, Thunder Wave, and then if they fped or missed, switch to Rhydon turn 2. They'll either sleep Rhydon/Golem - leaving your Jynx counter unslept and a reasonable mon asleep on your side - or fp/miss again, forcing Jynx out with Rock Slide's OHKO.)

so against the average team, gengar has to think twice about switching into snorlax, tauros, chansey, jynx, starmie, slowbro, zapdos. he has no business at all going into golem, egg, zam unless it's a desperation move. hm i think that's everyone in ou. well alright then.

Lapras, Cloyster, leaving aside the shit four that you claim aren't OU (they are considered OU on PO and 2K10, and Persian's considered OU even here). Also, forcing out Slowbro or killing it is usually worth the risk of para - Slowbro typically dies the second time it comes in barring exceptional play or unusual circumstances. Negating their attempt to directly win AND turning one of their Pokemon into dead weight is worth the risk of turning one of your own Pokemon into dead weight (and it is only a risk, not a certainty; Gengar can OHKO Slowbro with a crit Thunderbolt).

Also, I think Golem probably edges in front but not by a huge amount. Rhydon I'm not sold on.

 

[Jorgen]

Oh god please don't let your Rocks take sleep. I do not agree with that at all. That's a ton of attacking power and Snorlax-checking down the toilet all just because they might be able to take an Explosion if you predict just right (and if you're wrong, you're boned).

 

[Isa]

I agree completely with Jorgen. Rocks being a good sleep absorber is a myth. It's a waste of potential.

 

[Borat]

lapras, cloyster, and persian. alright. what about the other 85% of [better] OU? you could just outplay them using "skill and prediction" in which case ninetails is pretty good, probably why you brought him up -- or you could just admit gengar's pretty lackluster.

also in your slowbro scenario, what the hell's going on there? slowbro either twaves off the switch, then gets away scott free because gengar isn't threatening so now gengar's paralyzed. alternatively slowbro amnesias off the switch and ohkos with psychic or 2hko with surf, the latter less likely to happen without psychic and/or paralysis on gengar before hand.

what you're assuming is slowbro uses surf on the switch, then willingly take a full damage tbolt to trade for twave? yeah no sorry. that's not Secret shroomy technique status.

this thread blows ass. everyone knows how gengar functions, how gengar's played -- it's no mystery. everyone's fully aware of gengar's strengths and weaknesses, and willingly admits that his fault really lies in his numerous weaknesses, literally. it's cumbersome to keep a healthy gengar when every team averages 5.9/6 threats, either direct or indirect. he has pretty big potential upsides, primarily taking 0 from explosion. that's pretty much gengar in a nutshell, there's literally no new information because he's been a staple of RBY OU since before christ. we're regurgitating shit over and over because there's nothing else to say. perhaps the only notable takeaway from this thread is "don't get your golem slept, that's fucking stupid".

if you seriously think gengar's better than rhydon, that's your deal. you're allowed to believe that. this thread wasn't made for the purpose of convincing the other anyhting, since we're both too ignorant/arrogant to change our views. just like mr.e believes zam has a place in gsc to this day. they're your believies. and they're wrong.

 

[Omanyte]

perhaps the only notable takeaway from this thread is "don't get your golem slept, that's fucking stupid".

Meh, gotta have something slept, why not Golem?
Yeah, Gengar's main strength is his ability to absorb an Explosion. He generally takes more damage than he gives and he loses to a lot of stuff, although the fast sleep can also prove useful at time. If you get a boom prediction right then Gengar is an amazing pokemon. If not then it's a lot harder to justify him.

 

[Crystal_]

I'm with Borat mostly. Gengar is a mediocre pokemon but plays a bigger role when teambuilding/metagaming. BS/Surf/HB/SD Snorlax is the prime example. It should probably be the go-to snorlax set tbqh, with gengar being the metagame shift that happens to neuter that snorlax set, rather than a staple to begin with. It's not just this particular snorlax set, there's also Dragonite and Victreebel in the same boat. And wrappers aside, Persian. Also, Gengar leads are the reason why Jynx leads won't always have the chance to both land and take sleep. This becomes quite an annoyance when Jynx is the only sleeper in the team. Combine two of these three things for a team and Gengar will be one of the most effective performers against that particular team. But my point is that without Gengars showing up as answers to (some of) these potential metagame causalities, I don't see how an usage of above 20% (being quite reasonable) would be justified.

I personally think the so called explosion absorber role is overrated. From my experience there's generally a useless pokemon you can use for that. Be it the typical <30% paralyzed pokemon, or the sleeping mon when you no longer need sleep clause active because all your shit is paralyzed. Or heck, your frozen whatever. There's basically one move that prevents Gengar from being just dead weight, and that's explosion. You should be taking Zam/Chansey/Egg with you more often than not, and since gengar doubles as a sleeper, you can free egg/jynx's slot in your team as well (but youll be using egg is most teams regardless, and if you are not me, probably in all of them). That's basically what gengar does in a nutshell, really.

 

[Ortheore]

Meh, gotta have something slept, why not Golem?

Oh god please don't let your Rocks take sleep. I do not agree with that at all. That's a ton of attacking power and Snorlax-checking down the toilet all just because they might be able to take an Explosion if you predict just right (and if you're wrong, you're boned).

Also wanna add that sleeping GolDon neuters their ability to mess with things that might want to use HBeam (mostly Tauros), since they can switch in on HBeam and what? Burn a sleep turn? Big deal. A minor point, but I thought it worth mentioning

Also wanna agree with Crystal about "explosion absorber" being overrated for the reasons he said. But then again, the way I usually play Gengar it doesn't last long enough to have any kind of defensive utility, since as soon as I've slept something I'm usually looking to blow up on something useful, since Gengar struggles to accomplish anything offensively that isn't sleep/boom (So I play it opposite to the way Golden Gyarados does). If I can sleep something turn 1 then NS+Boom on the inevitable Egg switch in then I've incapacitated 2 pokemon at the expense of something that otherwise wouldn't have been that useful. Heck, in that scenario it doesn't take much to deny my opponent the chance to sleep something of mine altogether, since if I've slept something turn 1 it's Gengar or Jynx and NS+boom leaves Egg as Tauros fodder

 

[magic9mushroom]

Also wanna add that sleeping GolDon neuters their ability to mess with things that might want to use HBeam (mostly Tauros), since they can switch in on HBeam and what? Burn a sleep turn? Big deal. A minor point, but I thought it worth mentioning

Usually GolDon are not looking to switch into Tauros' Hyper Beam and then attack it; they're looking to switch into its Hyper Beam and then switch out to something else on the recharge turn.

Also wanna agree with Crystal about "explosion absorber" being overrated for the reasons he said. But then again, the way I usually play Gengar it doesn't last long enough to have any kind of defensive utility, since as soon as I've slept something I'm usually looking to blow up on something useful, since Gengar struggles to accomplish anything offensively that isn't sleep/boom (So I play it opposite to the way Golden Gyarados does). If I can sleep something turn 1 then NS+Boom on the inevitable Egg switch in then I've incapacitated 2 pokemon at the expense of something that otherwise wouldn't have been that useful. Heck, in that scenario it doesn't take much to deny my opponent the chance to sleep something of mine altogether, since if I've slept something turn 1 it's Gengar or Jynx and NS+boom leaves Egg as Tauros fodder

Egg's super-valuable until it throws sleep; letting it get Exploded on is pretty bad play IMO. Almost any other answer would be better.

 

[Isa]

What Ortheore described is pretty much the metagame way of handling Gengar these days. Exeggutor at least survives Night Shade + Explosion with a decent margin (though it can only ever come in on resisted attacks afterwards), something like Chansey will be left at almost 0 HP if not outright killed, and sending in Starmie on Gengar is far too risky. Alakazam would be the best bet but not all teams carry that. Sending in Rhydon is somewhat pointless - you reveal your Rhydon very early and have to capitalize on your opponent's switch to a fresh full health Exeggutor afterwards. It _could_ work to get an Egg ditto in though, which would make sleeping fairly safe.

However, given the prevalence of Night Shade Gengar, which was not as common a few years back, I'd say that exploring other ways of dealing with Gengar T2 might be in order. Exeggutor still beats it cleanly but doesn't wall it.

 

[Crystal_]

I dont see too much of a problem sending Rhydon into Gengar though. In worst case scenario you are still doing more damage to eggy with rock slide than gengar is doing to you with ns. If sleep clause is already active, 30% damage is making more progress that anything exeggutor could accomplish against a recoverer/exeggutor/jynx(?) bar explosion, unless we account the impact of potential double switches. It's about mixing your plays against gengar imo. You could send your zam, your eggy, your chansey, your rock, etc. You're pretty much in control about which pokemon you put in risk against gengar unless your team is short of these kind of options. Granted, with rhydon you're going to reveal an important defensive coverage pokemon early (could ease opponent's snorlax prediction if that's what you mean, plus the zapdos/jolteon thing), but it's not that rhydon stays hidden until the last turn anyway.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I dont see too much of a problem sending Rhydon into Gengar though. In worst case scenario you are still doing more damage to eggy with rock slide than gengar is doing to you with ns. If sleep clause is already active, 30% damage is making more progress that anything exeggutor accomplish against a recoverer/exeggutor/jynx(?) bar explosion, unless we account the impact of potential double switches.

No, the worst case scenario is this.

JYNX enough! Come back!
Go! RHYDON!

Enemy GENGAR used MEGA DRAIN!
Critical hit!
It's super effective!
RHYDON fainted!

 

[Crystal_]

I mean, I assumed gengar didnt have mega drain, but night shade. That's what we were talking about anyway.