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Announcement Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by McMeghan, Nov 20, 2013.

?

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?

Poll closed Nov 28, 2013.
  1. Yes

    49.5%
  2. No

    50.5%
Thread Status:
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  1. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

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    I agree with ginga: Kyogre has hard counters (Shedinja, Gastrodon), while stuff like Hydreigon does not. I'm pretty sure we know which one of the former two is inherently broken.

    Mega Gengar has plenty of checks, yes (Goodra, very strong priority), but the fact that he can switch out of those checks while the opponent can't switch out of him is why it is broken, not because it has no counters.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2013
    Dakar likes this.
  2. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 401 - 471 (94.1 - 110.7%)

    Kyogre's counters are only as hard as its dedication to conventional sets. Kyogre could easily destroy Gastrodon and Shedinja; it's just better off running different moves.

    But more to the point, yes, the ability to counter a Pokemon is, on its own, not at all relevant to whether or not it deserves a ban; counters simply aren't much of a thing anymore. No team is expected to have a hard counter for every or even any threat they face; they're just expected to have some way of dealing with them.
  3. DaiGuren

    DaiGuren

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    I believe the right term for MegaGar is not "uncounterable" if we're going by the smogon definition but rather, there's no term for it since MegaGar abuses a game mechanic(switching) that is not covered by the term, but I believe the description would be, almost nothing can stop MegaGar from doing its job, which is sniping.
    Dakar likes this.
  4. superstar

    superstar

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    In theory, Mega-Gengar is Uber. In practice, it really isn't too scary to be honest. Yes I realize I'll get crucified for this, and yes I realize this is probably because I play offense, but it DOES have to spend a whole turn Mega-evolving and if you are constantly firing off powerful hits, it can only come in on the revenge. As Zracknel pointed out in his post ya'll need to read, Mega-Gengar is a really strong tool, but it still rewards good play on your part and punishes the opponent for their mistakes. As people have pointed out, its great with VoltTurn support, but now all of a sudden you are running support for a support mon, and you've got one specific team archetype that Gengar is best in (trapping offense?). Gengar is also best on offensive teams, which rely on precious momentum and really, really, really, do not like cedeing it to find an opportunity to Mega-Evolve, especially against opposing offense. There have been points against stall when I wished I had my MGar back, but against offense there were very few times when I missed it and almost always I was very happy to have Kanghaskhan instead. This brings up another point...

    I'd also like to hear some discussion on the Megas and MGar's opportunity cost.. Using Gengar is a very real cost in that you can't use other excellent mons such as Mega-Lucario and Khangaskhan (who would both love MGar support btw). That has to be considered when deciding on a ban. Overall, since Mega-stones are the new mechanic in XY, I'd argue that we should think really long and hard before banning them and really consider how they interplay

    I don't like Gengar because of how easily it dismantles defensive team archetypes, but I don't think that it is as obviously broken as the majority of people are making it out to be. So I'm gonna change my mind and say that we should do an actual suspect test on this guy instead of a quickban
    Darkerones and Shadowlucario64 like this.
  5. Nitemaredan

    Nitemaredan

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    Wanted to make a few points heard
    A) Mega evolving, though it occurs before attacks, does not affect attack order. This means that, for example, Starmie vs Gengar would still result in Starmie outspeeding even if Gengar went mega that turn.
    B) Mega Gengar with Toxic can automatically eliminate certain pokemon/pokemon sets. For example, Two Gengar walls, Chansy and Blissy. Mega Gengar can trap them, toxic them, and simply wait if they aren't running aromatherapy. Any pokemon with a choice item that fires off a fighting attack is another automatic win.
    C) Mega Gengar has no reliable recovery, will take all hazard damage on every switch, and has very poor bulk.

    With these points in mind I'd argue that Gengarite belongs in OU. The potential upside is very high, and I can see it being one of the top pokes of OU, but it has many checks that, when taken together, I believe cements Gengarite in OU. That being said, Shadow tag+perish song warrants some heavy testing.
  6. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    The term for it is "is an effective trapper". Like the ones before it, just better.

    So many people point out Mega Gengar's reliability as a sign that it's broken, yet being good at its job in contributing to the team is precisely what defines a good Pokemon.
  7. DaiGuren

    DaiGuren

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    Yet, he is not just good at its job, he's the best at his job, and imo the thing that made MegaGar deserve the banhammer is the fact that there's very little counterplay available against what MegaGar has(perish trapping + monstrous special sweeping stats)

    Also, if a pokemon gets too good at doing its job, it gets sent to ubers, amirite?
  8. MudcrabDL

    MudcrabDL

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    The first turn Gengar is out honestly seems like one of the most crucial turns there is, that switch can really help push the momentum in your favor. There are also a lot of mindgames you can play once you know Megengar is around: predicting his switch in is a very effective way to once again push things in your favor, bringing something like Megadactyl in as Gengar comes in can let you take the upper hand and hit something, if not Gengar, very hard with a big Stone Edge. It changes the battle, certainly, but I don't know if it will overcentralize the metagame, as even stall teams often have big hitters to clean up. This is all contingent on the Perish Song set though, that sounds like it definitely deserves a suspect test.
  9. Magnemite

    Magnemite arceus with wings
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Chansey can do absolutely nothing to Gengar. Seriously, it cannot harm it in any way. You don't need to run anything special to beat it with Mega Gengar, because nothing Chansey ever carries even affects Gengar at all. The best Blissey can do is this: 0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 54-64 (20.6 - 24.5%). If Mega Gengar switches in on either of these Pokemon (which couldn't be easier, really), they're as good as gone. Stall is able to function only because of synergy and the ability to counter almost every threat in the metagame. Stall teams need every member of their team to be able switch into another Pokemon on the team that walls the opponent in order to work properly. Any Pokemon that can guaranteed trap and take out most key members of stall teams so easily is unhealthy for the metagame. It is a complete liability to have certain defensive Pokemon, particularly Chansey and Blissey, when your opponent has a Mega Gengar. The "poor bulk" you speak of can be difficult for defensive teams to break through when the best Special walls can't touch it and everything else gets shred to pieces. Not only is Mega Gengar immune to Toxic, but it even absorbs Toxic Spikes, as if it didn't annihilate stall well enough already. A well played Mega Gengar can be almost an auto-win against most defensive teams. That just isn't right, no matter how you look at it.
    Exeggutive and Dakar like this.
  10. N1ght123

    N1ght123

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    I have done calcs on the top 50 most used pokemon from October. Using this thread as a source: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/official-smogon-university-gen-vi-simulator-statistics-—-october-2013.3491683/
    I have made this because of complaints about the accuracy of that other post that claimed Gengar 1 or 2hko'd most of the used pokemon.
    Gengar has 36 hp/252 sp atk/216 speed Timid Nature

    Calcs (open)
    -Aegislash: Shadow Sneak
    252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 194-230 (71.8 - 85.1%)
    252- Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 276-326 (102.2 - 120.7%)
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 336-396 (124.4 - 146.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 224-266 (69.1 - 82%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 554-654 (170.9 - 201.8%)

    -Greninja: Shadow Sneak/Water Shuriken
    252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 182-218 (67.4 - 80.7%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 35-43 (12.9 - 15.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 424-500 (148.7 - 175.4%)(If Dark)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 318-376 (111.5 - 131.9%)(If Water)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 424-500 (148.7 - 175.4%)(If Normal)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 422-500 (148 - 175.4%)(If Ghost)

    -Talonflame: All Flying Type attacks are Priority.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 246-290 (91.1 - 107.4%)
    252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 174-205 (64.4 - 75.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 326-384 (90.5 - 106.6%)

    -Gengar: Mirror?
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%)
    252- SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 248-294 (91.8 - 108.8%)

    -Ferrothorn: Gengar has the possibility of Sub-Disabling Ferro's only attacking move and ending off with an intact Substitute.
    0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 74-87 (27.4 - 32.2%)
    0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (126) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 154-183 (57 - 67.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 208-246 (59 - 69.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 105-124 (29.8 - 35.2%)

    -Tyranitar: Assault Vest, Mega
    252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 162-192 (60 - 71.1%)(Non switch)
    252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 320-380 (118.5 - 140.7%)(Switch)
    252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 320-380 (118.5 - 140.7%)
    252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 270-318 (100 - 117.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-244 (50.4 - 60.3%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%)

    -Scizor: Bullet Punch, Pursuit Trapping, U-Turn
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 174-206 (64.4 - 76.2%)
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 174-206 (64.4 - 76.2%)(Non Switch)
    252+ Atk Scizor Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 232-274 (85.9 - 101.4%)(Switch)
    252+ Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 38-45 (14 - 16.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%)

    -Klefki: Prankster, Foul Play
    252 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 104-124 (38.5 - 45.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 127-150 (39.6 - 46.8%)

    -Garchomp: Scarf/Yache Berry(?)
    252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 432-510 (160 - 188.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 368-436 (103 - 122.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 184-218 (51.5 - 61%)

    -Goodra: Assault Vest
    252 SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 198-234 (73.3 - 86.6%)
    252 SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 129-153 (47.7 - 56.6%)
    252- Atk Goodra Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 198-234 (73.3 - 86.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra: 87-103 (22.6 - 26.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 58-69 (15.1 - 17.9%)

    -Azumaril: Aquajet, Choice Band
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 96-114 (35.5 - 42.2%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-171 (53.3 - 63.3%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 458-540 (113.3 - 133.6%)

    -Rotom Wash: Volt Switch
    252 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 162-192 (60 - 71.1%)
    252 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 103-123 (38.1 - 45.5%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%)

    -Excadrill: Mold Breaker(nat a safe switch in for regular Gengar)
    252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 444-524 (164.4 - 194%)
    252+ Atk Excadrill Shadow Claw vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 208-246 (77 - 91.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 228-268 (53.7 - 63.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 454-536 (107 - 126.4%)

    -Noivern: Infiltrator, Choice Specs
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 298-352 (110.3 - 130.3%)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Noivern Dragon Pulse vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 195-231 (72.2 - 85.5%)
    252+ SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 199-235 (73.7 - 87%)
    252+ SpA Noivern Dragon Pulse vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 130-154 (48.1 - 57%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 193-228 (62 - 73.3%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 384-456 (123.4 - 146.6%)

    Alakazam: Mega, Focus Sash
    252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 348-410 (128.8 - 151.8%)
    252+ SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 356-420 (131.8 - 155.5%)
    252+ SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 206-244 (76.2 - 90.3%)
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 422-498 (156.2 - 184.4%)
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 434-512 (160.7 - 189.6%)
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 250-296 (92.5 - 109.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 336-396 (133.8 - 157.7%)

    -Dragonite: Multiscale
    252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 294-348 (108.8 - 128.8%)
    252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 265-313 (98.1 - 115.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 160-190 (41.4 - 49.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 320-380 (82.9 - 98.4%)

    -Gliscor: Some only run Earthquake as an attacking move, may lead to Sub-Disable and a free Sub for Gengar
    252+ Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 348-410 (128.8 - 151.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 204-240 (57.6 - 67.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 408-480 (115.2 - 135.5%)

    -Lucario: Mega, Bullet Punch, Swords Dance
    252+ Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 78-93 (28.8 - 34.4%)
    +2 252+ Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 154-183 (57 - 67.7%)
    252+ Atk Lucario Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 206-244 (76.2 - 90.3%)
    +2 252+ Atk Lucario Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 512-604 (189.6 - 223.7%)
    252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 126-150 (46.6 - 55.5%)
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 250-296 (92.5 - 109.6%)
    252+ Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 250-296 (92.5 - 109.6%)
    +2 252+ Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 498-588 (184.4 - 217.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 430-506 (153 - 180%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 214-253 (76.1 - 90%)

    -Kangaskhan: usually Mega, Scrappy, Sucker Punch, Sub-Disable vs. Sucker Punch may result in a free Sub for Gengar
    252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 178-210 (65.9 - 77.7%)
    252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 23-28 (8.5 - 10.3%)
    252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 282-332 (104.4 - 122.9%)
    +1 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 420-496 (155.5 - 183.7%)
    252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 226-266 (83.7 - 98.5%)
    +1 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 336-396 (124.4 - 146.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 320-378 (91.1 - 107.6%)

    -Charizard x
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 337-397 (124.8 - 147%)
    252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 288-340 (106.6 - 125.9%)
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 337-397 (124.8 - 147%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 184-217 (61.9 - 73%)

    -Charizard Y
    252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar in Sun: 360-424 (133.3 - 157%)
    252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 163-193 (60.3 - 71.4%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 142-168 (47.8 - 56.5%)

    -Trevenant: Can switch
    0 Atk Trevenant Shadow Claw vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 198-234 (73.3 - 86.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%)

    -Malamar
    252 Atk Malamar Night Slash vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 218-258 (80.7 - 95.5%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 139-165 (36.9 - 43.8%)

    -Smeargle: Focus Sash
    Not even going to bother with actual calcs. It will survive a hit but Gengar can set up a Sub for free if it doesn't have Whirlwind.

    -Sylveon:
    252+ SpA Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 180-212 (66.6 - 78.5%)
    252+ SpA Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 136-160 (50.3 - 59.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%)

    -Gyarados: Mega
    252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 153-181 (56.6 - 67%)
    252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 256-302 (94.8 - 111.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Gyarados: 440-520 (111.6 - 131.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Mega Gyarados: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%)

    -Galvantula: Focus Sash
    252+ SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 169-199 (62.5 - 73.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Galvantula: 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%)

    -Skarmory: Sturdy, Roar
    252 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 171-202 (63.3 - 74.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%)

    -Togekiss: Scarf, Thunder Wave
    252+ SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 133-157 (49.2 - 58.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 252-296 (67.3 - 79.1%)

    -Volcarona
    252+ SpA Volcarona Hurricane vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 141-167 (52.2 - 61.8%)
    252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 154-183 (57 - 67.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%)

    -Florges
    0+ SpA Florges Hidden Power Ground vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 110-130 (40.7 - 48.1%)
    0+ SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 64-76 (23.7 - 28.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Florges: 222-264 (61.6 - 73.3%)

    -Forretress: Sturdy, Volt Switch. Might only carry Gyro Ball to hit Gengar, may lead to Sub-Disable and an intact Sub for Gengar
    0 SpA Forretress Volt Switch vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 35-42 (12.9 - 15.5%)
    0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (125) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 148-175 (54.8 - 64.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 157-186 (44.3 - 52.5%)

    -Starmie
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 204-242 (75.5 - 89.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Starmie: 336-396 (128.7 - 151.7%)

    -Espeon
    252 SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 400-476 (148.1 - 176.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0+ SpD Espeon: 306-360 (112.9 - 132.8%)

    -Mawile: Sucker Punch
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 396-468 (146.6 - 173.3%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 386-456 (142.9 - 168.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%)

    -Breloom: If it doesn't run Rock Tomb or Stone Edge it is completely walled by Gengar with a Sub
    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (Move 1) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 169-199 (62.5 - 73.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 576-678 (177.7 - 209.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 243-286 (75 - 88.2%)

    -Tyrantrum
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Tyrantrum Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 328-388 (121.4 - 143.7%)
    252+ Atk Tyrantrum Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 274-324 (101.4 - 120%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 246-289 (66.8 - 78.5%)

    -Cloyster: Ice Shard, Multi Hit moves get around Subs, Focus Sash
    252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 43-52 (15.9 - 19.2%)
    252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 70-84 (25.9 - 31.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 300-354 (124.4 - 146.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 450-530 (186.7 - 219.9%)

    -Mamoswine: Ice Shard, Focus Sash
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 562-663 (208.1 - 245.5%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 113-134 (41.8 - 49.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 243-286 (67.3 - 79.2%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 484-570 (134 - 157.8%)

    -Venusaur: Mega
    252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 276-325 (102.2 - 120.3%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 45-53 (16.6 - 19.6%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 77-90 (28.5 - 33.3%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Venusaur Power Whip vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 123-146 (45.5 - 54%)

    -Zygarde
    252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 468-554 (173.3 - 205.1%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 281-331 (104 - 122.5%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde: 132-156 (31.4 - 37.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde: 264-312 (62.8 - 74.2%)

    -Tentacruel
    252 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 100-118 (37 - 43.7%)
    252- Atk Tentacruel Knock Off vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 102-122 (37.7 - 45.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%)

    -Heliolisk
    252+ SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 195-230 (72.2 - 85.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 338-398 (103 - 121.3%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 201-237 (61.2 - 72.2%)

    -Jolteon
    252+ SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 196-231 (72.5 - 85.5%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Jolteon Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 234-276 (86.6 - 102.2%)

    -Clawitzer
    252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 367-434 (135.9 - 160.7%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 208-246 (77 - 91.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clawitzer: 177-208 (51.1 - 60.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clawitzer: 266-314 (76.8 - 90.7%)

    -Diggersby: If it only runs Ground and Normal attacks it is walled by regular Gengar. In addition it is also vulnerable to Sub-Disable
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 663-780 (245.5 - 288.8%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Rock Slide vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 166-196 (61.4 - 72.5%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 199-234 (73.7 - 86.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 396-468 (105.8 - 125.1%)

    -Delphox: Possible Scarf
    252+ SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 243-289 (90 - 107%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Delphox Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 237-281 (87.7 - 104%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 413-486 (152.9 - 180%)
    252+ SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 187-222 (69.2 - 82.2%)
    252+ SpA Delphox Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 182-216 (67.4 - 80%)
    252+ SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 318-374 (117.7 - 138.5%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 320-380 (109.9 - 130.5%)

    -Blissey: Needs Taunt to beat. If Blissey only runs Seismic Toss as its attacking move it is walled and gives Gengar a free Sub. Furthermore if it only runs one attacking move it will be shut down by Disable.
    0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 54-64 (20 - 23.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 188-222 (28.8 - 34.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 111-132 (17 - 20.2%)

    -Barbaracle
    252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 169-201 (62.5 - 74.4%)
    252 Atk Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 127-151 (47 - 55.9%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Barbaracle: 139-165 (48.7 - 57.8%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Barbaracle: 280-330 (98.2 - 115.7%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Barbaracle: 210-248 (73.6 - 87%)

    -Gardevoir
    252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 240-284 (88.8 - 105.1%)
    252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 106-126 (39.2 - 46.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 204-242 (60 - 71.1%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 242-288 (71.1 - 84.7%)

    -Vaporeon: Roar
    252 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 121-144 (44.8 - 53.3%)
    252 SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 91-108 (33.7 - 40%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 168-198 (36.2 - 42.6%)
    252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 250-296 (53.8 - 63.7%)
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2013
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  11. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I'm not seeing anything gamebreaking from Mega Gengar right now. The average team is too offensive for it to try and trap anything without having it Volt Switch or U-turn out, much less tossing around a weak Shadow Ball and expecting to rack up some KOs. Offensive LO Gengar isn't even powerful enough for my liking, so I'm troubled to think of anything Mega Gengar would threaten at a reasonable amount of health without it putting up a fight in return. Do people think the meta is still Gliscor/Ferro/Skarmory or something?
    Thorhammer likes this.
  12. BuddhaSmite

    BuddhaSmite

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    I personally voted no. My reasoning:

    Yes, this thing is an absolute beast, and one of the strongest mons in the current metagame. A good player that plays intelligently will absolutely wreck a lot of playstyles. The Perish trapper set straight up removes a TON of threats in itself, and the speed and special attack combination of mega Gengar hits almost everything except for the most dedicated special walls extremely hard.

    Reading that above short paragraph, many might think I was in favor of a ban. I haven't made up my mind on the subject of "whether it should be banned or not"......

    because this isn't what this discussion is about, and I think too many people here have forgotten that. This thread is to offer opinions on whether M-Gengar should be QUICK BANNED.

    Since there is clearly a case to be made for both sides, I think a standard suspect test is what is needed here.
    ZenBanana and Dakar like this.
  13. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    Smogon has generally preferred focusing on the "stronger argument", rather than poll numbers. No doubt, I would hope that Smogon continues its tradition. Smogon has always been called "elitist" for what it does, but IMO its the best way forward.

    I'm frankly glad that they have a less noisy channel where they are discussing this, because this topic has been just too crazy in general.
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  14. X5Dragon

    X5Dragon

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    Thanks for posting this. I don't think most us doubt the offensive prowress of MGengar and his ability to land OHKOs and 2HKOs but the point about him not being able to switch into most pokemons (attacks, boosts and status) and has to wait for the revenge kill or that a lot of pokemon need to be damaged previously or otherwise his 2HKO might cost him his own life is very misunderstood. This is the support the anti-ban side is talking about.

    For example (I'm not mentioning the encounters where it is an obvious MGengar win or pokemon MGengar needs 3HKOs to win again):

    Aegislash: If SR is on MGengars field then he is dead via Shadow Sneak. If Aegislash keeps his Shield on and attacks with Shadow Claw with enough health, MGengar is dead.

    Talonflame: Guranteed OHKO with SR using BB and a boosting item. If Talonflame loses this match up then it is most probably MGengar will very little HP left to survive another match up.

    Ferrothorn: If it has T-wave then it is safe to assume that opponent might use it if he predicts a switch of anything from MGengar to a set up sweeper. MGengar is able to 2HKO it but it will lose half of it's health if it doesn't run disable or disables the wrong move.

    Tyranitar: MGengar's hits are a guranteed 2HKO, but it can't take any of it's attacks in return and will die.

    Scizor: SR + BP will put it in the Red zone.

    Klefki: Has taunt but the more popular parafusion set has T-wave and Foul play, suffice to say MGengar will also lose at least half of his health to win this encounter or get statused otherwise.

    Garchomp: Depends on item used. Lead Garchomps use Focus Sash, offensive ones tend to use Yache and revenge killers use Scarf, none of them are good for MGengar who needs his teammates to previously damage it before it can revenge kill it safely.

    Azumarill: MGengar cannot switch in. If it wants to revenge kill it must take into consideration the (53.3 - 63.3%) damage from CB Aqua Jet and possible SR.

    Rotom-W: Most sets run defense as a counter to Talonflame among others, but MGengar cannot switch in and will take damage if it aims for a kill on semi healthy Rotom. Again, not an ideal situation and probably not MGengars priority for sniping.

    Noivern: MGengar needs Noivern to take SR damage or similar loss of health in order to OHKO it without HP Ice and cannot take any of its choiced attacks in return.

    Alakzam: Needs to have it's focus sash broken.

    Dragonite: Needs to have it's MS broken.

    Gliscor: MGengar needs HP Ice or Disable.

    MLucario: If SR has been set up on MGengars side then it will be brought down to the brink of death with a BP and cannot switch in again.

    MKangaskhan: Must be wary of using PP and Scrappy to get at least +1 boost. Lots of prediction can go on here, Sucker Punch, Sub Disabling, predicting that and using EQ. MGengar prefers to enter this fight with a sub on to reliably dispatch this threat.

    CharX: Can set up on MGengar if it has full to near full health, generally not advised if the opponent has neutral priority though. Needs to be previously damaged.

    Trevenant: Needs to be previously damaged.

    Skarmory: Needs have its Sturdy broken or MGengar can be looking at (63.3 - 74.8%) without SR.

    Togekiss: Thunderwave can cripple MGengar and Togekiss can go on to parahax it to death. Needs to be previously damaged to get OHKO'd by Sludge Wave.

    Volcarona: Bulky versions can set up on MegaGengar and kill it.

    Mawile: Sucker punch is an issue, but even after a disable, if Mawile isnt sufficiently damaged, MGengar will suffer to it's other attacks.

    Clawitzer: Needs to be previously damaged.

    Delphox: Loses to scarfed versions.

    Gardevoir: Needs to be previously damaged.

    Other pokemon not mentioned like Hippodon and Blastoise have similar comments.

    Edit: Confusion between Char Mega forms, ugh.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  15. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    I'm pretty disappointed that currently, the replays are down. I just had a nice winstreak on the ladder in light of this thread with a mega gengar team. PErsonally I had not used it much, and, I had little trouble fighting it due to the play styles I usually use. I'd love to show some of the doubters just how much the metagame would be shifted by mega gengar once it really picks up steam among average players who dont use retarded sets or misplay it.

    After playing with it, I am more convinced it is exceedingly strong, although not as convinced as the members of this thread. Being able to eliminate pokemon such as gliscor, landorus therian, skarmory, hippowdon, togekiss, ferrothorn, and other pokemon with trapping is such a fantastic luxury, and it opened up a dragonite sweep that was very challenging to stop. With lum berry, extremespeed, good defog support, healing wish support, fantastic offensive rock setters, prankster thunderwave, and other techniques I found opposing offensive teams struggled greatly to break me, and defensive teams got thier best checks picked off by mega gengar. Now, despite this gengar wasnt an unstoppable beast, it still got burned by clever playing with u-turn, pursuit, priority, and other adversaries. I struggle with being completely adamant about wanting to ban mega gengar, because often it simply has to make trades with somnething it wants to kill, which still, being able to eliminate a single opposing pokemon does not guarantee a sweep or completely annihilate stall like everyone agrees, but it is indeed right on the very edge of uber and OU worthy.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  16. MoosyDoosy

    MoosyDoosy

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    Okay well, I'll just have my Lucario switch in and threaten you so that you're forced to switch in skarm / hippowdon. Oh wait, I can then trap with mega Gengar! Hey, look! Now your skarm / hippowdon is gone and my DDnite in the wings is still there to beat you!
  17. 56k

    56k

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    Gengar's niche is "I can trap any one pokemon that is giving my team problems." I think this is a necessary evil of Gen VI OU because of the sheer power levels out there, both on the offensive end, the stalling end, and the annoying end. Gengar is a lazy way to patch up your team against the threats you know you are weak against. You will be rewarded when you encounter those pokemon, and punished when the opponent has a bunch of pursuiters and bulky pokemon. Gen VI is more dependent on team-match-up than ever before, and therefore matches are more dependent on trickery, creativity, prediction, and yomi layers than ever before.

    Gengar's presence adds a significant amount of depth to the game. It makes going for the KO questionable. Maybe something like substitute or switching would be a better idea than just KOing your opponent. Then again, overprediction is always a problem, and KOing your opponent then being revenged by gengar might be the conservative, but overall best choice. There's also shed shell, which was a gimmick item in genV but not so uncommon in genIV. Maybe it has a place in genVI.

    Lastly, at the moment the game is pretty "arcade-y" meaning fast paced and offensive. GF gave the players what they wanted at launch. Charizard is better. Blaziken got another option. Aggron has always been a fan favorite. Lucario got stronger. Greninja, zam, gengar, blaziken, scolipede, talonflame, and aerodactyl have given us some pretty crazy speed tiers.

    But GF reserves the right to introduce new megas at any time, and there might be things out there in the future that would kind of require gengar's presence. Kangaskhan might be only the first wave of extremely strong normal type evolutions. In the future we might have something like a mega snorlax or mega blissey that becomes a ridiculous tank or wall, but can't use shed shell.

    Guaranteed revenge killing things is very very good, but doesn't warrant a ban, because it's just standard power level in Gen VI. Khan doesn't have guaranteed revenge killing but it does have choice band on every move. Greninja doesn't have guaranteed revenge killing but it has STAB on every move. Talonflame doesn't have guaranteed reveng killing but it has 110/120 BP STAB priority. Gengar does have guaranteed revenge killing, but it's actually not that strong, and doesn't have priority. So whatever, that's the standard power level here.
    Sazoon and Aldaron like this.
  18. MasterRyuga

    MasterRyuga

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    So far when ive faced a mega gengar i had little trouble of getting rid of it but i must say that after gengar has mega evolved and is used to its strengths its been very dominant when having the correct support and can be devastating in just a trapping team where mega gengar can 2hko or ohko a good amount of pokemon that cant ohko it and outspeed in return. i dont think its generally an uber pokemon but its very fast and high sp atk good coverage and you cant escape if it decides to switch in on you (basically guaranteeing that you will be able to ohko the mon you switched in on all together) i feel like its too early to tell with mega gengar so far but hopefully there will be a suspect test for this pokemon but it is a little too strong for now in my opinion.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2013
  19. TheMohZone

    TheMohZone

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    I haven't really had too much trouble with MegaGar. Its good, its really good and if it got higher BP moves i think there would be an issue. Its the Best Revenge killer in the game, bar none ubers or no, but its not Ban Worthy.
  20. RowDog

    RowDog

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    I personally cannot see the Gengarite being quite Uber worthy.

    I'm not here to say that it is not a good Pokemon, and is definitely one of the bigger threats, but I still feel there are somethings holding it back:
    1. The first time it comes in whatever it is up against has the chance to escape Shadow Tag, and this delay is very significant. A good Shadow Tag would want to immediately have what it wants trapped and then to dispose of it or greatly cripple it. Mega-Gengar doesn't have this luxury, and the opponent can switch into a counter to M-Geng forcing it out. It will then have the ability to trap whatever it pleases on the next switch in but this will come with drawbacks. This renders his Shadow Tag ability not as good as it what it probably could be, and if this did immediately trap in the turn of Mega-evolving I think this would mean completely different things for it.
    2. Although the it may force a switch on the first switch as said above, the main problem is that M-Geng isn't able to utilise it that well. This I believe is due to the lack of any good setup for it. If M-Geng had Nasty Plot or Calm Mind then we would have a major problem on our hands. But unforunately for it it doesn't have such boosting moves to properly wreck. This combined with an movepool with great coverage but lackluster power, M-Geng surprisingly has a hard time to OHKO quite a few Pokemon, even with 170 base SpA.
    3. So with a movepool that does very respectable damage, but still has access to a nice support movepall. Disable, Destiny Bond, Hypnosis are all nice support options that Gengar has and used in previous. Shadow Tag and Perish Song is now available, which has to be a very scary prospect. The problem with M-Geng is it has no reliable recovery (with its only options being Dream Eater and Rest) without access to Leftovers or Black Sludge, meaning he can't use Substitute over and over unlike in his SubDisable build, or use it to stall out for a Perish Song, although you still are most likely going to take out a Pokemon for some health in most cases.
    4. Priority and faster Pokemon are a living nightmare for it. Granted M-Geng is already very fast but a Scarfed, boosted Pokemon, if M-Geng isn't running a positive speed nature, on the turn which it mega-evolves using its base 110 speed or just some ridiculously fast Pokemon (Mega-Alakazam) can deal quite a blow to M-Geng as his defensives are nothing to be proud of, and with weaknesses to Ghost, Dark, Psychic and added Ground weaknesses with the loss of Levitate, it can take heavy hits easily or OHKOs. Priority is also a nightmare for it. Unless it is running a good status move, Sucker Punch on most things will OHKO it. And even then, Shadow Sneak deals heavy damage. Talonflame priority Brave Bird and Scizor Bullet Punches will also cause trouble for it.
    5. And lastly with these bad defences, it finds a lot of trouble switching in to trap something in the chance that your opponent predicts the switch in and then you can say goodbye to your M-Geng. But it is still one of the best ever revenge killers in the game nonetheless and probably how it should be played.
    M-Geng can do a couple of roles very well, but nothing too great other than an effective revenge killer. Therefore I think it to be a top tier Pokemon in OU, but not quite Uber material.
  21. fleurdyleurse

    fleurdyleurse still walking
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    What ginga said:
    Show Hide
    2. Mega Gengar is frail, loses to Priority and Scarfers: Mega Gengar is frail, this is a fact. Sure, its not as frail as people make out, but its still frail. Despite this, "being frail" is still no reason for something to be kept out of Ubers. Nor is being weak to certain forms of priority enough, on its own, to support Gengar staying in OU. The Deoxys-A + N formes are some of the most frailest mons in Ubers, both of them lose to Priority, and, as already stated, both are uber. Being OHKOed by CB Scizor after SR (or whatever the amount of residual damage required is) isn't an end all argument for keeping Mega Gengar OU, so don't treat it as such. I recently read a post claiming that Mega Gengar should stay OU because it lost to Talonflame and CB Azumarill as his main argument, but then went on to cite a Blaziken quickban was ok despite being weak to both those same pokemon. Bottom line, don't use being weak to priority as the basis for your entire argument, it just doesn't fly.
    Also, a good MGengar user won't switch in when conditions are unfavorable. Counters like Ttar amd Psychic-types to a certain extent will most certaintly be taken care of.
  22. Ajwf

    Ajwf

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    I'm only addressing 1 and 2 because 3-5 was a rehash of "Too frail" argument that not only did I state page 22 as irrelevant to Gengar's role, but has been accepted and stated that it isn't a factor in this conversation.

    1. Every mega evolution in the game has to deal with mega evolving. Yes, for gar his ability won't kick in that turn, but that really is irrelevant. He needs one turn to get the ability up and can threaten/protect during that turn, and most likely switch out, making it a non-factor. If scizor/ttar is around to come in, I'd argue that was a bad time to mega evolve that any player worth his salt wouldn't have done.

    2. You need to get someone to teach you the definition of the word 'lackluster'. A pokemon with 170 SpA and a large attack move pool to utalize that doesn't fall under that definition. Nor does it matter if he ohkos or not! We aren't talking about a sweeper here. Please read the thread before saying this, the definition of an uber support never mentioned needing to OHKO 'quite a few pokemon' (in future arguments, crucial specifics hold more water. Here, however, that wouldn't change the irrelevance).

    Yes, he could revenge kill, but his role is to set up a sweep for another pokemon. Again, this has been stated multiple times and once you stop treating him as a sweeper, you'll realize just how impossible he is.
    fleurdyleurse likes this.
  23. RowDog

    RowDog

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    Did I use that as the main centre piece of argument?

    Basically I am saying he has a few flaws. I'm not saying that that is the main reason as to what is pulling him back from Ubers, but I'd still consider it one of them. Personally I find Mega-Kang to be a bigger threat with his boosts, good sweeping potential and bulk, but I don't want to stray off topic here.

    And likewise, you say "Counters like Ttar amd Psychic-types to a certain extent will most certaintly be taken care of" but not everything goes a person's way in a Pokemon battle, especially if you are versing someone just as good or better. They are obviously going to want to keep them around etc. blah blah blah

    I am sorry that I realised this late, but I am not about to go over 23 pages of posts, although I have gone over quite a few and read many of the different arguments floating around. And in the end a lot of this is based on what people have personally witnessed etc. Some people are going to see at as a bigger threat than others, I don't see at as too big a threat worthy of Ubers in the end, you might. I have reasons, you have reasons, and we might both look at them in different ways, I don't find that either points are illogical. There are always going to be debate etc.

    And on the topic of debate. The response you made to my first point that the Mega-evolving turn is irrelevant I would have to disagree with. It is like Prankster Mega-Banette, and it does affect the effectiveness of it. "He needs one turn to get the ability up and can threaten/protect during that turn, and most likely switch out, making it a non-factor" I don't quite understand what you meant by that by threaten or protect or the switching out part and so am going to respond as how I read it. The point of a switch will generally be on what you predict your opponent to do, and as quite a few Pokemon can switch in on Mega-Geng without taking over 50% health as long as it was predicted right or is tanky enough to just tank it without much risk, hence I don't feel that it strongly "threatens". I'm not sure what you are meaning by "Protect" that turn, as the only real things he can do to protect would be to Substitute on that turn, granted it is running it, and would be good for it. The switching out part is where you confuse me the most as I read that as switching out on the turn which it Mega-evolves which isn't possible. So I assume you'd be saying the next turn, and that is what I tried to cover. Your opponent may get a free turn if it is forced out for whatever reason, which there are a few because his counters aren't limited, and then can get a free move of setup, whereas Mega-Geng doesn't really have any setup outside of Substitute, which may aid it a lot in the next battle but if the Geng user doesn't setup a sub, there could be problems. In the meantime any counter measure has the ability to setup with entry hazards or a boosting move or whatever, as Mega-Geng isn't a good setup. This in the long run could result in the opponent's advantage.

    In your response to my second point. I am by know means saying that his SpA isn't BAD, but it there is still BETTER out there. For those who are using it for SpA sweeping which I have seen the majority using it for, that may not be the best way to go but these are based off of my observations of the sets which I have previously experienced. In the terms of the sweeping spectrum (regardless of whether you don't think that is his best role it is definitely one that he can fulfil well and will be seen around I'd assume) I experienced a Mega-Gengar which switched in on my specially defensive Vaporeon (which was fully invested in SpD so not to Gengar's discredit). I am not sure of what the EV or nature spread of this guys Gengar was but his Thunderbolt did not do more than 50% of Vaporeon's health, whereas a Scald did over 50% of Mega-Gengs health and he was forced out. This may not be the best example, but it shows how even walls and somethings which Mega-Geng can be around to try and be rid of can deal a significant amount of retaliation to it in certain cases. This is an example of a wall which is Mega-Geng's job to get rid of which he isn't up the task for, somewhat showing that he is somewhat drawn back from the role of taking out walls in order to let other Pokemon sweep without perhaps sacrificing himself with Destiny Bond. I just can't see what he shines at so much because of this. I have never really felt overly threatened by Mega-Geng.

    And I like how people say "a good Mega-Gengar player should not do this or this" as if the game of Pokemon is just as easy like that. With Pokemon being such a diverse game filled with chance and millions of possible situations, it is hard for you to pinpoint what a user of a particular Pokemon should and should not do. Granted there are some obvious scenarios where it is very unfavourable for you to do something, but it is a lot about prediction and chance as well. You cannot have a perfect Mega-Geng player so please don't make comments like "I would have always gotten rid of so and so first" and that everything will go your way because it doesn't. You can't ignore a Pokemons counters because you have another Pokemon which makes up for it, because it doesn't always match up enough like that.

    But basically what I am saying as an end result is that Mega-Geng's counters are not limited unlike for example the 2 pokes who were just banned, Blaziken and Deoxys-N. Those 2 were very hard to stop and got away with too much, Mega-Gengar doesn't do this to the same extent. A good player should be able to take out at least 1 or 2 of his/her's opponents pokemon, but it generally doesn't get too much better for Mega-Geng, and a lot of other OU Pokemon have similar capabilities. A good player should also be able to deal with a Mega-Geng effectively as well. In the end I consider Mega-Geng to be OU material and thing like Blaziken and Deoxys-N to be bigger threats and more ban worthy, out of personal opinion.
  24. BROloom

    BROloom

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Reading through this thread so far, the one phase I really hate seeing is "most teams are too offensive at the moment for M-Gengar" or something along those lines.

    The problem with that, is you're essentially making everyone pigeon holed into that style. Normally a pokemon that goes uber is on the basis that you have to have a pokemon to counter it, and the centralizes the pokemon in the metagame. With M-Gengar and saying offence beats it, it's not just centralizing the metagame to use certain pokemon, it's centralizing it to use a certain STYLE.

    If you ask me, that's far worse, stopping a style massively limits the amount of pokemon that can compete in the highest level, as normally, certain pokemon could be great on defensive teams, but be useless on offensive teams. If offensive is the only thing being ran, then all those pokemon suited to defensive teams... just aren't viable, because the playstyle is not. So at the end of it, everyone is only using offensive styled teams, meaning that's all you have to prepare for, meaning that all the options are what can fit on offensive teams.

    A pokemon being uber isn't about how easily he can sweep, how easily much he is used, how powerful his attacks hit, it's about what his effect is on the metagame, and if that effect is flat out stopping certain styles, if that effect is making it so a pokemon can't even be put in a team, because gengar can come in on it and KO it (can't switch to safety), then that is a massive effect on the metagame. Normally, if a pokemon can't beat a pokemon, you have a switch ready that is a flat out counter to that pokemon. If that pokemon can't beat mega gengar... then too bad, you can't have that pokemon to switch to that completely counters gengar because... you can't switch. Instead of being a useful pokemon that struggles to get past certain pokemon, it becomes a useless pokemon because it can't get past one.

    There are some arguments for keeping M-Gengar around, and I'll think about those in more detail, and might post about reasons he shouldn't be banned later, but above are reasons why he should be banned, and I think they're pretty strong reasons at the moment, because while he's not completely tearing apart the metagame at the moement, he is forcing what can be used, and what can't be used, and that is a bigger deal.
  25. Ajwf

    Ajwf

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Messages:
    883
    RowDog

    By protect, I was referring to the move 'protect', which sub/perish sets can run. But it is an option to basically get the mega scot free. The objective the first time in is not to trap, per say, but rather to get shadow tag working for the next time. Yes, this provides a chink in Mega gengar's effectiveness but only so long as a pursuit trapper exists on the other team, and one at that who can come in safely. When I referred to a player worth his salt not doing so, I was saying that the player hopefully would be able to recognize a pursuit trap scenerio and avoid it, thus avoiding in our conversation and discussion of it because however relevant in theory, it is generally irrelevant in practice. Not every team has a pursuit trapper that can safely deal with mega gengar.

    For base special attack in tier, there is actually no better option besides items. His SpA edges out Aegislash, Mega kazam and thundrus-t, the three next closest. Sure, it is not boosted, but 170 is not hindering him from trapping/killing threats he is able to take out. Saying that not being able to boost and sweep can be viewed as a fine argument if he was a sweeper, but the issue is the only arguments relevant are the ones pertaining to his role as a support pokemon. That's all that's relevant because this is what the judgement will be based on. If you read my post last page, I explained/compared mega gengar as uber support and it really should show the difference between him and 'blaziken, deoxys-n'. Gengar does not care about counters. He is not ending the game himself. He is only removing counters for another sweeper. This difference is crucial when discussing him.
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