Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[reyscarface]

Something I want you people to understand, since you clearly dont play the same game as I do, is that if you think Scarfers will be a force with Mega Gengar in OU, youre dead wrong. All those mons in that list I posted are mons that, without speed boosts from any side, will lose to Mega Gengar, or win vs Mega Gengar, in common scenarios. The scarfer in your team is NOT RESERVED TO BEATING MEGA GENGAR. You do not save your Scarfer for the Gengar because, chances are, you need it for something else. Thats where Mega Gengar shines, as well. Oh and if you do save it, Mega Gengar switches out and what now.

Please try to fucking understand, its not hard if you use your brain like youre supposed to. Wobbuffet was banned in DPP not only for the ability to trap defensive mons, but because it removed most team's safety Pokemon, the one that let you survive a sweep from x booster, AKA your Scarfed mon. If any of you played Gen 4 Ubers you would have noticed the lack of Scarved mons on the tier. Kyogre could afford it, and so did Palkia due to the sheer amount of utility it had, it could revenge like anything. Dialga was used less but lets take him too. Kyogre could afford it because he had a chance of beating Wobbuffet. Palkia and Dialga were used in order to survive +2 Rayquaza and boosted Darkrais. Wobbuffet comes in, traps your Scarfer, kills it, and now Rayquaza sweeps. Or Darkrai, whatever. This was more or less balanced by the fact that the power creep in ubers is sky high.

Lets go back to Mega Gengar. If you ever need to use whatever scarved mon you have in your team for ANYTHING else other than Mega Gengar, and you had to use a move than cant OHKO it, youre fucked. That Scarved mon is gone. You kill something with that weird ass Scarf Delphox set and locked yourself on Fire Blast? Dead. You needed to bring Heatran to stop Lucario from shitting on you and locked yourself in Flamethrower? Dead. You locked your Landorus on anything that isnt Earthquake? Dead. Jirachi on anything not called Iron Head? Dead. Hydreigon on anything that isnt Dark Pulse? Dead.

So please cut it with retarded shit like Scarved mons being gods against Mega Gengar, when in reality, Mega Gengars existance alone makes you RELUCTANT to use choiced mons.

Also theres a shitton of even more stupid shit being said lately: "Gengar doesnt OHKO everything so its bad LOL", but I aint even gonna bother with that shit.

 

[MagicMissingno]

How do we define certain playstyles as being supposed to be usable? If stall isn't effective in the current meta, it isn't effective and people should avoid it and can't complain when it loses.

Except it is effective in most situations. Usually when I find an offense team and I loose it's because I made a bad play due to inexperience and not knowing what every Pokemon can do, one example being a near loss resulting from not knowing Tentacruel is outsped by Mamoswine.

 

[dende5416]

I'm a 1600s player, and I have trouble using Tyranitar in my teams. Therefore, I think he sucks and he's not OU material, but UU. Now, will my experiences hold any water against theorymoning Tyranitar?

Imo if we're taking experiences into consideration, then we should only take an expert's. However, there is no way to handle this without causing drama and going offtopic, so imo we should just count out personal playing experience unless its from someone that everybody else respects and has already proven something.

The difference between OU and UU, though, is usage, and not power. Whatever ends up in UU, RU and NU are just what is used less then whatever borderline the usage percent is drawn at. Something moves from UU to OU just if enough players find it useable. Pokemon only get banned from OU to Ubers if a pokemon is considered to break the metagame it is in. In fact, some pokemon too powerful for UU that fall to UU could, theoretically, be banned from UU if it broke the UU metagame.

 

[Zukai]

Is MGengars performance against Stall specifically and his ability to take care of defensive cores in general enough to warrant a quick ban even though the large majority of teams are offensive in nature?

It really doesn't matter that teams are offensive, Mgengar will only come in against things it can trap and kill. what the fuck is so hard to get about this, Mgengar won't be sweeping through entire teams (good ones at least) but sniping threats. Jesus man, you and your side are recycling the same flawed arguments over and over again without any evidence to back it up. I've seen you say "Azumarill: MGengar cannot switch in. If it wants to revenge kill it must take into consideration the (53.3 - 63.3%) damage from CB Aqua Jet and possible SR." who cares if it takes aqua jet damage, if azumarill is dead how the fuck do you plan to stop i don't know RP gene or a RP terrakion. So i take damage on my gengar but now my sweeper has free reign over your offensive team. you really should stop with your bad arguments, your just embarrassing yourself.

 

[Rechi]

I don't buy the argument that Gengar shouldn't be banned because the metagame leans towards offense. Yes, offense is the dominant playstyle but that doesn't mean a defensive/stall team can't be viable. If a stall player does poorly in the current meta it should be for reasons like they made a bad team or got outplayed by their opponent NOT because one pokemon alone makes their choice of playstyle borderline unusable.

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

I really wish people would quit replying to the dense arguments against the ban, as I've read 9 pages of people repeating themselves (and others) because a certain few can't understand the points being made over and over.

Mega Gengar is too powerful.

 

[X5Dragon]

It really doesn't matter that teams are offensive, Mgengar will only come in against things it can trap and kill. what the fuck is so hard to get about this, Mgengar won't be sweeping through entire teams (good ones at least) but sniping threats. Jesus man, you and your side are recycling the same flawed arguments over and over again without any evidence to back it up. I've seen you say "Azumarill: MGengar cannot switch in. If it wants to revenge kill it must take into consideration the (53.3 - 63.3%) damage from CB Aqua Jet and possible SR." who cares if it takes aqua jet damage, if azumarill is dead how the fuck do you plan to stop i don't know RP gene or a RP terrakion. So i take damage on my gengar but now my sweeper has free reign over your offensive team. you really should stop with your bad arguments, your just embarrassing yourself.

You know what, I've never been a fan of the word fuck and embarrassing yourself and all that jazz in arguments because it shows loss of control and a little loss of confidence, unless this is an argument made between sheets then feel free to scold that underperforming *******.

Azumarill will switch into something it can set upon or immediately kill/threaten, for example the RP terrakion you mentioned. In order for MGengar to trap Azumarill, it has either wait for Azumarill to kill something, or switch into something that can tank Azumarills hit and then switch into MGengar hoping that it stays in regardless or MGengar switches in predicting a choice band on a resisted move (which is gonna be hard seeing how the only move that threatens and kills both of these pokemon is Aquajet). That or you predict an Azumarill switch in the first place and you switch to MGengar. It's not a simple case of X vs. Y.

 

[Windsong]

You know what, I've never been a fan of the word fuck and embarrassing yourself and all that jazz in arguments because it shows loss of control and a little loss of confidence, unless this is an argument made between sheets then feel free to scold that underperforming *******.

Azumarill will switch into something it can set upon or immediately kill/threaten, for example the RP terrakion you mentioned. In order for MGengar to trap Azumarill, it has either wait for Azumarill to kill something, or switch into something that can tank Azumarills hit and then switch into MGengar hoping that it stays in regardless or MGengar switches in predicting a choice band on a resisted move (which is gonna be hard seeing how the only move that threatens and kills both of these pokemon is Aquajet). That or you predict an Azumarill switch in the first place and you switch to MGengar. It's not a simple case of X vs. Y.

I'm just going to throw it out here that if you make a deliberate choice to not read and acknowledge Rey's (and others') excellent posts because of the tad bit of excessive ad hominem and obscenity present in them, then you're just depriving yourself of actual knowledge and you're being deliberately ignorant.

On your point, it is a very simple case of X vs Y. In your example right there, the Gengar player gets to choose what Azumarril kills before Azumarril dies. The Azumarril will always die and the Azumarril player won't have a choice in that respect. So the Azumarril player literally cannot afford to keep their Azumarril in a single turn or else they flat out will lose their RP Terrak check and lose to the RP Terrak. All your argument does with the example you gave is completely prove the main arguments towards banning MGar.

You've actually stated in previous pages that you're unwilling to acknowledge several posters who've made extremely solid arguments towards banning MGar (far more solid than the joke of an argument you've been trying to make against banning it) simply because their posts used slight ad hominem and obscenity, and if you really aren't going to acknowledge those posts, then you just end up looking kinda silly tbh.

 

[Halcyon.]

You know what, I've never been a fan of the word fuck and embarrassing yourself and all that jazz in arguments because it shows loss of control and a little loss of confidence, unless this is an argument made between sheets then feel free to scold that underperforming *******.

Azumarill will switch into something it can set upon or immediately kill/threaten, for example the RP terrakion you mentioned. In order for MGengar to trap Azumarill, it has either wait for Azumarill to kill something, or switch into something that can tank Azumarills hit and then switch into MGengar hoping that it stays in regardless or MGengar switches in predicting a choice band on a resisted move (which is gonna be hard seeing how the only move that threatens and kills both of these pokemon is Aquajet). That or you predict an Azumarill switch in the first place and you switch to MGengar. It's not a simple case of X vs. Y.

As an offensive player, surely you understand the idea of sacrificing a Pokemon to grab momentum. In this situation, a weakened Pokemon can be foddered off to Aqua Jet (or another move, you could lure the Play Rough or something, but that isn't important. best case scenario for Azumarill is AJ, so we'll assume it uses that). After that, you are free to bring in Mega Gengar and trap it. You KNOW that this is a common strategy for offensive teams. You posted similar arguments in the Keldeo suspect thread. The difference here is that normally this is an effectiuve strategy to gain momentum. But here, it is a strategy that is impossible for the Azumarill user to avoid, and opens up a sweep for RP Terrakion (wut?) or more likely Volcarona or something.

 

[Zukai]

You know what, I've never been a fan of the word fuck and embarrassing yourself and all that jazz in arguments because it shows loss of control and a little loss of confidence, unless this is an argument made between sheets then feel free to scold that underperforming *******.

Azumarill will switch into something it can set upon or immediately kill/threaten, for example the RP terrakion you mentioned. In order for MGengar to trap Azumarill, it has either wait for Azumarill to kill something, or switch into something that can tank Azumarills hit and then switch into MGengar hoping that it stays in regardless or MGengar switches in predicting a choice band on a resisted move (which is gonna be hard seeing how the only move that threatens and kills both of these pokemon is Aquajet). That or you predict an Azumarill switch in the first place and you switch to MGengar. It's not a simple case of X vs. Y.

If i have a poke weak to azumarill and the field, will i stay in? No. i would switch to Mgengar as i predict you to switch to azumarill, then your azumarill is dead and there is hole in your team and good player could exploit.
Anyhow, no use dwelling on azumarill vs Mgengar when as shown, it can trap and beat a huge proportion of the metagame offensive and defensive. I trap a talonflame, now keldeo is suddenly a lot harder to deal with. Or, i kill a lucario ,oh dear, you just lost a huge threat now my team is safer.

The anti-ban side are saying "it's not broken priority and scarfers can deal with it" well great, but, what if the Mgengar user i don't know switches out. My opponent doesn't have that option if Mgengar is on the field. Switching is one of the corner stones of competitive pokemon and if you take that away, well, the game becomes less competitive and more about "hmm okay, i send out Mengar vs X, and now Y can sweep" this is made even easier by gengars huge movepool. You can tailor make the perfect set for your team, to support your sweeper and there's bugger all the opponent can do because they're trapped and can't switch. The fact that Mgengar prevents one of the most important things in the game we play makes it inherently un-competitive. Don't even say "well why aren't other trappers banned", duggy is weak, gothitelle is weak and slow and wobb needs to be brought in at the perfect time and it has no movepool. Mgengar has none of the issues previous trappers had, it's fast, strong and has a great movepool. that is why Mgengar needs to go.

 

[Selena Gomaz]

If an overwhelming majority of the council thinks the Gengarite is broken, please save us the pointless arguments and ban the item. Gengarite does more harm than good. His sheer versatility allows him to be tailored to your teams needs and thus giving a team a reliable consistent trapper and killer. It isn't about which set is most broken. It isn't about his inability to OHKO anything and everything in the tier. Its about him being undetectable in terms of versatility and you won't know what to do to counter it until its too late and he's trapped and killed your mon.

 

[Rugi]

Is it possible to change my vote? my opinion has changed. After much consideration reading the facts and participating in a few more battles I can second the fact the mega-gengar should be moved to ubers.

 

[X5Dragon]

As an offensive player, surely you understand the idea of sacrificing a Pokemon to grab momentum. In this situation, a weakened Pokemon can be foddered off to Aqua Jet (or another move, you could lure the Play Rough or something, but that isn't important. best case scenario for Azumarill is AJ, so we'll assume it uses that). After that, you are free to bring in Mega Gengar and trap it. You KNOW that this is a common strategy for offensive teams. You posted similar arguments in the Keldeo suspect thread. The difference here is that normally this is an effectiuve strategy to gain momentum. But here, it is a strategy that is impossible for the Azumarill user to avoid, and opens up a sweep for RP Terrakion (wut?) or more likely Volcarona or something.

I'm pretty sure that the player will not switch Azumarill into a weakened pokemon that isn't his primary target (anything other than the Terrakion in the example) if it didn't carry a set up move upon seeing Gengar in the preview. After all, that is what offensive teams do, create pressure until they find weak things they can boost upon. But let's assume my Azumarill is CB or something similar, then you either have to catch me on a double switch or literally force my hand so as the saying goes, choose my poison and decide Azumarill has to go instead of something else. I would like to remind you that is very rare for an offensive team to carry only one set up sweeper, for example it can have a DD Nite (physical), QD Volca (special) and something else like a Mega or otherwise. I can also take advantage and set up on MGengar after it's kill, as hard as it may sound.

Again, the whole pro-ban discussing is leaning on what MGengar does to defensive teams and cores so I'm not sure arguing about offense will mend anyone's opinion though it was a nice opportunity to go into detail.

 

[Windsong]

I'm pretty sure that the player will not switch Azumarill into a weakened pokemon that isn't his primary target (anything other than the Terrakion in the example) if it didn't carry a set up move upon seeing Gengar in the preview. After all, that is what offensive teams do, create pressure until they find weak things they can boost upon. But let's assume my Azumarill is CB or something similar, then you either have to catch me on a double switch or literally force my hand so as the saying goes, choose my poison and decide Azumarill has to go instead of something else. I would like to remind you that is very rare for an offensive team to carry only one set up sweeper, for example it can have a DD Nite (physical), QD Volca (special) and something else like a Mega or otherwise. I can also take advantage and set up on MGengar after it's kill, as hard as it may sound.

Again, the whole pro-ban discussing is leaning on what MGengar does to defensive teams and cores so I'm not sure arguing about offense will mend anyone's opinion though it was a nice opportunity to go into detail.

Now you've switched from ignoring posts with ad hominem to just ignoring the posts that explain why your arguments are flat out wrong.

Actually read the previous posts. I already stated why your Azumarril example is pointless less than half a dozen posts up. The vast majority of the good pro-ban discussion really doesn't give a damn about what MGar does to defensive teams and cores. Actually take the time to read the good pro-ban arguments if you want to make vaguely intelligent sounding posts. Please. Ginga even linked them in his post a few pages ago, so you don't have to trawl through most of the junk in this thread to find them.

 

[ll wrath ll]

So I'm going to stop lurking and give my two cents on this argument, after reading the entire thread; all its contents (and a strikingly similar Chandelure OU DW thread). Honestly I've completely stayed away from OU and pokebank OU until this mess from megas gets sorted out, talked with enough good players on the simulator to satisfy my decision. That being said....


I voted that Gengarite should be banned. After giving all of the posts a read or two, I really find myself agreeing that Gengar fits the Uber support mon' definition. Depending on what your team is, and what it's weak too, Gengar can patch that role; it can trap and kill whatever you want it to, all while playing mind games with your opponent. Honestly, I just feel i'm parroting what everyone else has already stated: that it is too good at what it does and takes away from what the metagame can be. I'm not usually a fan of games that have one designated meta over another, but showdown is what a real metagame SHOULD be. Diverse. There are no cheap shots and specific instawin cards, at least until mega Gengar was born.


I see it like this: Your in a chess match, but your opponent has a free move and/or chess piece that he can just do whatever the hell he wants with it, and gain an easy advantage, with minimal skill involved. Honestly, that's just a hallmark of what Pokemon shouldn't be. Giving bad players an easy advantage, and cheap shot versus skilled players who know what they are doing. While the ranking system helps alleviate this somewhat, it doesn't take away from my argument in the slightest. It is true that the BEST players can play around mega Gengar, but the cost to benefit ratio is just far too low for Mega Gengar to remain in OU.


I'm not sure if I read it somewhere in this thread, or by an admin in PS, but wasn't this thread brought up partially because the OU council thought that if given a suspect mega Gengar will receive the ban hammer? If that's where it is inevitably going to lead, then aren't we really just prolonging the inevitable and wasting resources on a potential suspect in the future? I get that this thread was opened for the purpose of discussion, and it's good we are discussing... but at the end of the day I just haven't seen enough good arguments for why he shouldn't be banned, versus why he should. It should also be noted that the vote somewhat inversely parallels the good to bad argument ratio, which speaks a lot to what I was saying earlier. If the poll is leaning in favor of NOT banning, yet by anyone's objective analysis, the quantity to quality ratio is HEAVILY leaning in favor of banning him, doesn't that speak wonders about what's really going on here?

My two cents on the situation anyway.

 

[Garris]

For all the people shouting from the rooftops that Mega Gengar has no counters, I've beaten it before and I'm pretty new to the competitive scene!

Just speaking from my very little experience, I think there is one very large elephant in the room for why I think Mega Gengar might have ultimately been fine for OU.

Aegislash. Mega Gengar is completely stopped by Aegislash. I've killed a decent amount of Mega Gengars with it. in Shield Forme it has the bulk to survive Shadow Ball, and then it has the priority through Shadow Sneak to secure a KO or, at the bare minimum, force a switch.

Sure Mega Gengar is a powerful Special Attacker, but on the bulk side, isn't it a bit of a glass cannon? It can be killed from what I've seen. You just need to have something with the special bulk and an appropriate super-effective move to clean up. Aegislash isn't the only one, come Pokebank maybe even Jellicent will be quite nice as a Mega Gengar check if it can carry a super-effective Ghost move.

Keep in mind that maybe the battles where I faced Mega Gengar were not the best, so maybe I'm missing something? like more bulky sets of Pain Split/Destiny Bond shenanigans?

If it does end up getting banned from OU, I guess I'll shed no tears, and the OU council likely knows better than me, it just kinda sucks that if Mega Gengar is banned from OU.... Aegislash might dominate OU as the go-to ghost-type even more than it already is.

 

[reyscarface]

so maybe I'm missing something?

Yes, youre missing reading every single good pro-ban post in this thread because you clearly have no idea what youre talking about, ffs.

 

[Garris]

Yes, youre missing reading every single good pro-ban post in this thread because you clearly have no idea what youre talking about, ffs.

But none of those arguments seem to deal with the fact that Aegislash so easily kills Mega Gengar. As I could imagine would any specially bulky wall that can hit it super-effectively.

Aegislash is just the most notable one because of priority w/ Shadow Sneak. I just don't see what's so unstoppable about it because my Aegislash has done such a good job in dealing with them? Just seems silly to me to ban something that's countered by something that's super popular right now.

 

[reyscarface]

But none of those arguments seem to deal with the fact that Aegislash so easily kills Mega Gengar. As I could imagine would any specially bulky wall that can hit it super-effectively.

Aegislash is just the most notable one because of priority w/ Shadow Sneak. I just don't see what's so unstoppable about it because my Aegislash has done such a good job in dealing with them? Just seems silly to me to ban something that's countered by something that's super popular right now.

Gengar kills something that cant switch out due to shadow tag.

Aegislash comes in.

Gengar switches out.

3 turns later:

Gengar kills something that cant switch out due to shadow tag.

Aegislash comes in.

Gengar switches out.



Do you want me to use colors and drawings so you can get it better or is this fine.

 

[Fafnir]

The thing is, what self respecting player would ever switch Mega Gengar in onto something that could kill it?

 

[Rosstein]

The thing about any type of Banded Pursuit is that Gengar can Protect before switching out. This is generally the smartest thing to do anyway since noone in their right minds will try to actually set up on it. It is also the best thing to do if you smell a Scarf, as you will know EXACTLY what to switch into.

If the Gengar user spots a Pursuit, they can either Disable, forcing you to Struggle to death, or attack and potentially score a KO.

The only thing that can reliably stop the above scenario is a Choice Scarf Pursuit. And come on, seriously?

 

[farranpoison]

What kind of damage does Choice Band Aegislash Pursuit do to Mega-Gengar? Not enough to really justify the moveslot, I imagine, but...

252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%)

If switching out:

252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 384-454 (118.5 - 140.1%)

IMO if you're forced to run CB Pursuit on Aegislash of all things to handle MGengar, then that's saying something.

 

[The Deceiver]

Well, my opinion is very simple. Mega Gengar is not best used as a special sweeper, but most likely a revenger killer, and makes a great revenger killer in OU, teams just be prepared to face a threat like mega gengar, but I don't see the meaning of banning gengarite. Loses immunity to ground types, the stats are not very different of a life orb gengar, and the ability itself only important in revenge killing. Gets a little bulkier, but seeing the all picture, I desagree with gengarite' banning.

 

[Rosstein]

Well, my opinion is very simple. Mega Gengar is not best used as a special sweeper, but most likely a revenger killer, and makes a great revenger killer in OU, teams just be prepared to face a threat like mega gengar, but I don't see the meaning of banning gengarite. Loses immunity to ground types, the stats are not very different of a life orb gengar, and the ability itself only important in revenge killing. Gets a little bulkier, but seeing the all picture, I desagree with gengarite' banning.

It's players that use Gengar like that that makes others think he's not banworthy. You don't use Gengar as Sweeper and you don't use it as Revenge Killer (well kinda, but not to the core of the defenition). You use Gengar to take out whatever you don't like to see on your opponent's team. And this is extremely easy to decide thanks to Team Preview.

Say you have a set-up sweeper Terrakion on your team, but you spot your opponent has Gliscor. So what do you do? Simple, you lure the Gliscor, kill it with Gengar and sweep with Terrakion.

Gengar isn't going to sweep teams. But he ensures victory for any other Sweeper you have. THAT is why he is a problem.

 

[MagicMissingno]

Well, my opinion is very simple. Mega Gengar is not best used as a special sweeper, but most likely a revenger killer, and makes a great revenger killer in OU, teams just be prepared to face a threat like mega gengar, but I don't see the meaning of banning gengarite. Loses immunity to ground types, the stats are not very different of a life orb gengar, and the ability itself only important in revenge killing. Gets a little bulkier, but seeing the all picture, I desagree with gengarite' banning.

How do we prepare to deal with it?