Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[X5Dragon]

MGengar is great but he does face problems:

1) Priority and Multi Hit moves: The current meta lacks neither, and nearly all Gengar sets don't run bulk or enough of it to avoid death from things like Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, Talonflame Brave Bird, Azumarill's boosted AquaJet, etc. Multihit moves are found on many pokemon, for example MKangaskhan's EQ/Crunch.

2) Hazards: MGengar is susceptible to Hazards especially Stick Web which means you also need to support it.

3) Checks and Counters: Speciall Walls, Pranksters with status, Scarfers, bulky pokemon with STAB SE moves.

A lot has been said about the Perish Song trapping set, but you have to remember the following:

A) In order for it to work you need to Mega evolve first to activate the ability, which means the opponent can switch in to something that can handle it such as priority or counter. You can choose to stay and take out whatever he sends instead if you deem it worthy enough of sacrifice, but then you also have to outspeed it and use Perish Song on the switch. If you choose not to stay in, that means you have to build your team such that someone else can take the hit.

B) It is a sacrifice, the option to blow a hole or a chance to take down your sweepers main check/wall comes at a price, and even though does have Shadow Ball in it's set which is resisted only by Dark, in practice you will be pressured very quickly to use Perish song and stall immediately and end up taking only one pokemon most of the time.

Edit: Written by someone who actually runs Perish Song/Protect/Sub/Shadow Ball on his MegaGengar sets.

 

[TUO]

As of now, Gengarite doesn't appear to be broken. It needs a turn to Mega Evolve and a lot of other things prevent it from being the dominating force that you would expect it to be. However, Gengarite and Shadow Tag actually have a crazy amount of potential that hasn't been discovered yet imo. Examples can be: A. A core that revolves around Mega Gengar, that can potentially be as strong as things like KelTarLando in 5th Gen (not too alien to think of). B. A set that can basically wreck anything it lures in with Shadow Tag (Perish Song is one, but maybe a Taunt+Dbond set or something along those lines)

Those make me believe that Gengarite doesn;t sound so good now, but has a lot more potential to get better. This is definitely not worthy of a ban yet, but people need to stop calling Gengar an underwhelming mega

 

[AOPSUser]

So, let's all wait until Pokebank is available. At the moment, Mega-Gengar is easily checked/killed and his normal Gengar sets as LifeOrb/SubDisable are much better than what MegaGar can do at the moment. Smogon should never ban things that don't even exist, in my opinion.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Don't try to compare two sets with two completely different roles. Normal Gengar is just an all-out attacker, because other than Life Orb and Choice sets Mega Gengar does everything else it does way better. It's a revenge killer, and an amazing one at that, since the mon you trap is completely helpless as you slaughter it or (worse) get a free Substitute on it, allowing you to wreck the next mon that switches in (unless it is Scarf Noivern/Chandelure/Crobat) as well.

Also the power level doesn't make that much of a difference between LO Gar and Mega Gar. Both are guaranteed to OHKO 252/252 Careful Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand after SR with Focus Blast (with about a 10% power difference between the two), and Shadow Ball/Focus Blast is still unresisted, and Gengar gets Sludge Bomb and co. too. Disable gives it plenty of room to set up a Substitute which makes its life much easier. Taunt trolls stuff like Blissey.

Even without Perish Song there is only really one "counter" to Mega Gengar--Assault Vest Goodra.

 

[MagicMissingno]

So, let's all wait until Pokebank is available. At the moment, Mega-Gengar is easily checked/killed and his normal Gengar sets as LifeOrb/SubDisable are much better than what MegaGar can do at the moment. Smogon should never ban things that don't even exist, in my opinion.

Isn't Pokebank available on Showdown and other simulators?

 

[Mega_Lucario]

He has to wait a turn to become Mega and trap things, also he needs to wait a turn to get 130 Base Spe, it's a matter of logic if gengar uses destiny bond take it with you, it can be unorthodox but is the only thing you can do, otherwise it will kill you and live to kill another of your mons, i have use the perish song+sub+protect set and yes of course you will take one of the rival mon and the only problem with that set is that you have to resist with 26% of HP in order to do the sub, the disable set is the more apealing to me cuz he can resist other attacks and kill in response but gengar defense says OU to me.

 

[farranpoison]

Isn't Pokebank available on Showdown and other simulators?

Pokebank OU in PS is inherently flawed because we don't even have access to a number of mons in real life yet, and as such do not know if they received changes in abilities, stats, moves, typing, etc.

I will admit that I just realized PerishTrap isn't even legal until Pokebank comes out, and by then we might get some new mons that can deal with MGengar. Still, though, Shadow Tag. That ability alone is enough to warrant a hard look at MGengar. Because Shadow Tag sucks for reals.

 

[Aldrius]

Let's not act as if Mega Gengar is easy to wall. It can still 2HKO the majority of the metagame with Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb and whatever it can't, it can just kill off with Destiny Bond. So no, Perish Song is not even needed to make this thing absolutely broken.

I wasn't. My point was 170 is really high, but that's all it's going to be and other pokemon in the tier can hit that kind of power with items and other things. Versatility, speed, bulk and Shadow Tag are it's strengths more than overwhelming power.

Nice try, but Deoxys-N is already gone.

I don't disagree with that decision, but I find it equally premature.

Isn't Pokebank available on Showdown and other simulators?

It's flawed, it's not an accurate representation of what the game will be like when Pokebank is actually released.

 

[Edgar81539]

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Don't try to compare two sets with two completely different roles. Normal Gengar is just an all-out attacker, because other than Life Orb and Choice sets Mega Gengar does everything else it does way better. It's a revenge killer, and an amazing one at that, since the mon you trap is completely helpless as you slaughter it or (worse) get a free Substitute on it, allowing you to wreck the next mon that switches in (unless it is Scarf Noivern/Chandelure/Crobat) as well.

Also the power level doesn't make that much of a difference between LO Gar and Mega Gar. Both are guaranteed to OHKO 252/252 Careful Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand after SR with Focus Blast (with about a 10% power difference between the two), and Shadow Ball/Focus Blast is still unresisted, and Gengar gets Sludge Bomb and co. too. Disable gives it plenty of room to set up a Substitute which makes its life much easier. Taunt trolls stuff like Blissey.

Even without Perish Song there is only really one "counter" to Mega Gengar--Assault Vest Goodra.

That kind of role is weak for a Mega. There's no real reason to use it over normal Gengar outside of the fact that know you get to pick up which thing you're trying to going to kill, assuming you don't get killed by priority/a normal hit before you get things done, and even if you get to kill something, with an all-out offense set you're going to die fast and let's be honest, Substitute/Disable/Taunt on a pokemon designed to revenge kill is kind of lacking . MegaGengar without Perish Trapping is easily worked around by a lot of mons on this meta.

 

[Thorhammer]

Let's not act as if Mega Gengar is easy to wall. It can still 2HKO the majority of the metagame with Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Sludge Bomb and whatever it can't, it can just kill off with Destiny Bond. So no, Perish Song is not even needed to make this thing absolutely broken.

We have to remember that the question is a bit different from "is this Mega broken?"; it's "is this Mega broken to the point where we can confidently ban it without a suspect test and cannot wait for a suspect test?" A lot of Pokemon make for deadly attackers without being broken, and most broken Pokemon don't warrant quickbans.

Isn't Pokebank available on Showdown and other simulators?

Showdown is able to offer our best understanding of what a Pokebank metagame will look like based on certain assumptions, most of which are reasonable but none of which are guaranteed. It's hard to say what it'll really look like. We had a DW metagame for Gen 5 based on the way we thought we could assume the metagame would look eventually, and we never got a Gen 5 metagame looking anything like it.

 

[MagicMissingno]

Pokebank OU in PS is inherently flawed because we don't even have access to a number of mons in real life yet, and as such do not know if they received changes in abilities, stats, moves, typing, etc.

If that's the case then why not ban MGar for now and test him later when Pokebank is released? I'm not sure if people get this on this site but I believe that we can unban stuff.

 

[AOPSUser]

That kind of role is weak for a Mega. There's no real reason to use it over normal Gengar outside of the fact that know you get to pick up which thing you're trying to going to kill, assuming you don't get killed by priority/a normal hit before you get things done, and even if you get to kill something, with an all-out offense set you're going to die fast and let's be honest, Substitute/Disable/Taunt on a pokemon designed to revenge kill is kind of lacking . MegaGengar without Perish Trapping is easily worked around by a lot of mons on this meta.

Um...that's the whole point of Mega Gengar, and that's why it's so good. PerishTrapping is just another thing it can do, but it's best (imo) as the single best revenge killer in the entire OU tier. There is pretty much nothing better since nothing else has such offenses or can trap opponents at the same time. Going back to Gen IV, Wobbufett was Uber, simply because it could get so many guaranteed kills. Gengar does that job way better since it doesn't have to take damage to kill the other guy. Sure, it can't screw around with Encore, but Disable/Sub/TAUNT/D-Bond is plenty enough for Gengar.

Also Wynaut was Uber in Gen 4. Because of Shadow Tag. Don't try to underestimate Shadow Tag.

 

[Arcticblast]

C) The opponent will try to switch out on the last Perish song count, because if you do and you are probably the fastest pokemon, you will switch first then the opponent. You most likely would have to stay and die with it.

Technically Shadow Tag prevents you from choosing to switch, not from actually switching. So your opponent can't choose the option to switch out on the last turn as you switch out.

 

[Mega_Lucario]

So, let's all wait until Pokebank is available. At the moment, Mega-Gengar is easily checked/killed and his normal Gengar sets as LifeOrb/SubDisable are much better than what MegaGar can do at the moment. Smogon should never ban things that don't even exist, in my opinion.

Totally agree, except they are not baning him for perish song, they want to ban him cuz his hability and his movepool combined makes him very strong, and the best revenge killer in the metagame.

Just a question, i know that trick room teams are not a priority, but how do you see mega gengar facing a trick room team? of course he can trap an kill one of the trick room user easy but in the late game with a trick room in the field? or not? he takes a risk of being OHKO if he switch in on a bad prediction, or choke to a powerfull trick room sweeper.

 

[AOPSUser]

Totally agree, except they are not baning him for perish song, they want to ban him cuz his hability and his movepool combined makes him very strong, and the best revenge killer in the metagame.

Name a better revenge killer.

Just a question, i know that trick room teams are not a priority, but how do you see mega gengar facing a trick room team? of course he can trap an kill one of the trick room user easy but in the late game with a trick room in the field? or not? he takes a risk of being OHKO if he switch in on a bad prediction, or choke to a powerfull trick room sweeper.

It's like asking how Scarf Salamence does in that situation.

Of course it's pretty bad then. But Trick Room teams are very niche. As in, VERY niche. Even more so due to stuff like Azumarill and Talonflame running around.

 

[Epikhairz]

Assault Vest Goodra can Counter most sets besides the dumb destiny bond set.

Problem is, you can't switch Goodra in on Mega Gengar due to Shadow Tag so my point remains - zero counters

 

[Thorhammer]

If that's the case then why not ban MGar for now and test him later when Pokebank is released? I'm not sure if people get this on this site but I believe that we can unban stuff.

That is not what is currently being proposed. Stuff that's banned tends to not come back.

If we were discussing an explicitly temporary ban of Gengarite from the hypothetical Pokebank metagame only, with Gengarite remaining OU in the Kalos metagame now and staying OU when Pokebank becomes available, I believe it would go better. I can't give my own real judgment on the idea, as I haven't played the hypothetical Pokebank metagame and never will, but it strikes me as a lot more reasonable than this at least; I wouldn't object, personally.

 

[Mega_Lucario]

Name a better revenge killer.

You name it, i don't know, also you can do much better than "pretty bad", anyways...

I do agree in the fact that mega gengar don't have any counter, your only choice is go for prediction, but still looks OU for some users, me included.

 

[UR2L8]

Jibaku this thread is more or less so that people can give their two cents before the council takes its decision. It's more than likely that what will be said here will not be of any relevance to the members of the council.

Why have this thread at all then? If users want to have their 2 cents posted and ignored then I'm sure gamefaqs and /vp/ have threads up on the subject already. If the council is 'more than likely' going to ignore what's said here, then the discussion here shouldn't continue, because some users might believe if they bring up a strong and valid argument, they might have influence over what happens to the meta that they play. Which 'more than likely' won't happen.

 

[AOPSUser]

You name it, i don't know, also you can do much better than "pretty bad", anyways...

I do agree in the fact that mega gengar don't have any counter, your only choice is go for prediction, but still looks OU for some users, me included.

I cannot think of anything that even comes close. Gothitelle is just lol worthy, Wobbufett similarly, but those are the only other Shadow Taggers in the meta. Nothing else can be compared to Mega Gengar.

OK. Assault Vest Goodra counters me. I switch in my [insert powerful physical attacker here] to take a hit from Goodra, and retaliate. Then I come back later on something else, kill that, Goodra comes in, I switch, rinse and repeat.

And Gengar does learn Toxic (lol). But don't actually use that.

 

[alexwolf]

Why have this thread at all then? If users want to have their 2 cents posted and ignored then I'm sure gamefaqs and /vp/ have threads up on the subject already. If the council is 'more than likely' going to ignore what's said here, then the discussion here shouldn't continue, because some users might believe if they bring up a strong and valid argument, they might have influence over what happens to the meta that they play. Which 'more than likely' won't happen.

It's not that the good points that are made in this thread are ignored, it's that the council most likely knows about them. Of 'course posting good points about its tiering may result in some information for the council that they haven't thought about or overlooked, in which case your post would have made an impact. It's not that the council won't take into consideration the reasons to ban or not ban Mega Gengar of the people that post here, it's that the council already knows most of those reasons.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Nice try, but Deoxys-N is already gone.

Deoxys-N is an entirely different case. It's been released for years, we've known what it can do for years, and it's been Uber for years along with the rest of the usuals. Mega Gengar is entirely new and deserves more consideration rather than a quickban, especially considering it's most broken set doesn't even exist yet.

Quite frankly I find this whole Pokebank thing really strange, it's a hypothetical metagame and we have no idea how accurate it really is. Maybe Gengar doesn't even get Perish as an egg move anymore, who can say? Even if it is likely you shouldn't ban based on an assumption. It's very premature to ban a new Pokemon based on its performance in a "preview" metagame, so if Gengar gets the boot, it should be because of its current sets.

Considering that currently even without Perish Song, it has Shadow Tag to trap and revenge just about anything, as well as Taunt+DB to remove walls of your choice with little-to-no support, a quick test/council decision is entirely fine by me. I just want to see the right reasoning behind the decision!

 

[Thorhammer]

Deoxys-N is an entirely different case. It's been released for years, we've known what it can do for years, and it's been Uber for years along with the rest of the usuals. Mega Gengar is entirely new and deserves more consideration rather than a quickban, especially considering it's most broken set doesn't even exist yet.

Quite frankly I find this whole Pokebank thing really strange, it's a hypothetical metagame and we have no idea how accurate it really is. Maybe Gengar doesn't even get Perish as an egg move anymore, who can say? Even if it is likely you shouldn't ban based on an assumption. It's very premature to ban a new Pokemon based on its performance in a "preview" metagame, so if Gengar gets the boot, it should be because of its current sets.

Considering that currently even without Perish Song, it has Shadow Tag to trap and revenge just about anything, as well as Taunt+DB to remove walls of your choice with little-to-no support, a quick test/council decision is entirely fine by me. I just want to see the right reasoning behind the decision!

To be fair, I get the idea that if we banned Gengarite and then got proof that, somehow, it was impossible to get a Mega Gengar with Perish Song, we'd immediately give it an actual test at least. Can any staff confirm this?

I don't see how it's impossible to get a MGengar with Perish song, even if for some reason it can't get it as an egg move this gen. Simply breed one in Gen 5 and transfer it over, right? Unless there's something I'm missing.

It's an unlikely scenario, but a possible one. The thing we have to remember is, while we can make educated guesses about how Pokebank might work based on past transfer systems, guesses are all we actually have. We've been surprised before, and there's been precedent for Pokemon not being able to take moves into games where they don't belong - a precedent we haven't seen since Gen 2, but it's there. Also we don't know if directly transferred Pokemon will be treated any differently; I've heard some speculation about some blue pentagon marker that might identify Gen 6 natives? That's really getting into speculative territory, but the point is that we just don't know, and assuming we'll be able to keep everything is just as much speculation.

But the thing is, if we acknowledge that speculation and stay prepared to immediately reverse any tiering decisions made based on it if it's proven to be false, that's not so bad. Just as long as we don't let issues with Perish Song affect bans in the current Kalos OU tier where it certainly doesn't exist.

 

[deadflame]

I believe that Mega Gengar should be banned from OU. While the all out attacking set is manageable, it's the Sub Disable Perish Trapping set is what makes it really dangerous. It's a broken set, and can destroy entire teams easily in the hands of any semi-competent player.

 

[sidakarya]

The Gen 2 cut-off was a special case of incompatibility between data, which also meant no transferring oldmons, which hasn't happened since. There are very few minor discrepancies between Gen 5 and 6 (for example the EV cap being at 252 instead of 255), but most of the structures like IVs and such appear to be similar to Gen 5, so another "cut-off" seems unlikely. There still could have been any number of new moves the unrevealed Pokémon have since got which could affect the metagame in some sense, maybe even revelant to Gengar. (I actually can't think of anything that would make Perish-trapping M-Gengar not broken, that the unobtainables could get, but still.)

The blue pentagon marker in the Pokémon screen is apparently a hack-checker. If the Pokémon has it, it's legitimate. Since you can't hack something from your 3DS, I'd assume it would have to do with transferred mons. EDIT: Upon looking into this deeper, apparently the only indicator of this blue pentagon is that this Pokémon came from Kalos, and Serebii apparently miscontrued "obtained in normal play in X+Y" as "not hacked". Only that specific Japanese tournament, in which the function of the pentagon is explained, doesn't allow transferred Pokémon (similar to tournaments, in which only gen 5 obtainable mons are allowed).

 

[Dragontamer]

Mega Gengar has issues vs Tyranitar

This is ridiculous.

On its first switch-in, Mega Gengar cannot trap its first target; it can only trap the thing that switches in to counter it, which would not be switching anyway. In other words, on its first switch-in, it behaves basically like regular Gengar. In order to trap and kill something in a manner remotely comparable to stuff like Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Gothitelle, you have to switch in Gengar twice: a Pokemon with 60/60/75 defenses on the first switch-in, 60/80/95 defenses on the second, no defensive investment whatsoever, and only a total of seven types it takes better than neutral - six, on its second switch-in, because it loses its immunity to Ground. And by the second switch-in, it's already shown some aspect of its hand, since it has to launch an attack on its first switch-in in order to Mega Evolve. If that attack was Perish Song, you might have a problem regardless, if not for the fact that as things currently stand, in real, observable metagames, Perish Song is not in Gengar's movepool.

In practice? I've found dealing with Mega Gengar no more of an issue than dealing with any other offensive threat, including regular Gengar. You figure out how to kill it and put it into play faster than it can kill you, that simple. There's simply nothing out of the ordinary about the situation at all. Maybe once Pokebank shows up and we can concretely establish its metagames and start examining things, we'll have a chance to suspect it. But for the time being, Gengarite must not be quickbanned; it should remain OU at least until it has the chance for an actual suspect test. The notion of quickbanning it is just absurd.

I fully agree. There are so many threats out there that are extremely hard to deal with (Mega kangaskhan for one). Its not like Mega Gengar survives Talonflame Brave Bird. Even beyond that, Aegislash Shadow Sneak puts a major dent on it, and Mega Gengar is open to Pursuit Trapping for the one turn it mega-evolves. Case in Point: Assault Vest TTar is 3HKOed by Mega-Gengar Focus Blast (good luck hitting that 3 times in a row...). Unless Mega Gengar used Substitute on the switchin to turn Mega, it is dead against any AV TTar team. Mega-Gengar has major issues against priority users, it fails to revenge kill Mega-Kangeskan with Focus Blast.

The loss of levitate is a major penalty towards Gengar. It cannot switch into any Earthquakes for the rest of the game, and it opens itself up as weak to Sticky Web. Deployment of Sticky Web completely nullifies Mega Gengar as a threat: pokemon as slow as Heracross will go first and destroy him. I dare say Shadow Tag is not really dealing with the Sp. Def walls of this generation. Lucario, Hydreigon, Kangaskhan (Earthquake, no need for Sucker Punch). Without Sludge Bomb, Gengar cannot trap Togekiss. Thunderbolt is a 3HKO against Sp. Def Togekiss. In return, Togekiss threatens with powerful Shadow Balls and T-Wave. (T-wave is utterly crippling). Sub / Disable / Parish Song assumes that Mega Gengar has the momentum. If Gengar is really revenge-killing, Togekiss is going to get a T-Wave off, utterly destroying Mega Gengar for the rest of the game.

Gengar isn't winning vs Goodra, Mega Gengar is KOed by Infestation / Rest Shuckle outside of a Sandstorm. AV Tyranitar easily wins vs Gengar, tanking the Focus Blast as a 3HKO. Ferrothorn threatens T-Wave. Talonflame revenge kills. Aegislash revenge kills. Scizor pursuits. Scarf pokemon revenge kill easily (Scarf Chomp Earthquake is fun). I'm not saying that Mega Gengar isn't a threat... but it certainly hasn't blown holes in my team. I can think of very many Sp. Def walls that serve their job as wall, and still deal with nearly all permutations of Gengar that I can think of.

We're looking at a metagame where priority is everywhere and Assault Vest laughs at the Sp. Atk of Gengar. Sp. Def walls no longer sit around and do nothing (like Blissey), and are instead beasts like Goodra or TTar. Hell, slap Assault Vest on any random pokemon, and you've pretty much got a Sp. Def wall that Mega Gengar can't deal with. (AV Togekiss (Psyshock), AV Hippowdon (Earthquake), AV Rotom)

Shadow Tag is a great skill, but it just doesn't mesh well with Gengar. And if the only worry of Mega Gengar is Sub / Disable / Parish Song set, lets wait for that to be actually OU before banning Gengar.

Who knows? The blue pentagon may not exist for Pokebank transferred pokemon. Maybe they have to be born in Kalos for `mon to be legal. We don't even know the rules and restrictions of Pokebank yet. So why not wait till we know more about Pokebank at very least? (especially if the only "broken" set is in Pokebank)