Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[farranpoison]

Actually Pursuit users can switch into Gengar... on the first turn. Then he subs when you obviously switch the pursuit user in, and then goes "lol bye" and switches out.

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

Actually Pursuit users can switch into Gengar... on the first turn. Then he subs when you obviously switch the pursuit user in, and then goes "lol bye" and switches out.

No Mengar user who is not drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber would do something that stupid. THere's also a thing called prediction. If you see that pursuit user, you might as well use gengar to lure it in, switch to lucario and even feint mega evolving your lucario in the said situation above, either way, meLucario hits dark type pursuit users ever so hard.

In the case of scizor, it is OBVIOUS that everyone would have a counter to Gen 5's king of OU. other wise you're just "drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber"

P.S. I knew it, this thread was filled with drunkards!

 

[farranpoison]

No Mengar user who is not drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber would do something that stupid. THere's also a thing called prediction. If you see that pursuit user, you might as well use gengar to lure it in, or feint mega evolving your lucario in the said situation above.

P.S. I knew it, this thread was filled with drunkards!

Dunno why you're getting angry at me, but you do know if your opponent has a Pursuit user on their team, it's not always going to happen that you're going to put Gengar in AFTER that Pursuit user is dead. You might need it MEvo'd to take care of a later threat. However, like I said, if the Pursuit user is still alive when Gengar goes in, the other player is obviously going to switch that Pursuit user into Gengar. So just sub and switch out, and now you've got a relatively unscathed trapper. Or the player can be dumb and keep whatever Gengar is threatening in, and die horribly.

 

[Dinosaurman]

While I agree mega gengar is too good for OU these luring arguments are very silly. If you're smart you can already lure something in to bait something you can set up on, obviously not all the time but in my experience mega gengar cannot always create this situation either.

This is at 2k on a few nicks, so there's aren't lol 4atksm8 Gengars I'm talking of. I've seen many variations from sub, protect, perish, ball to sub, disable, ball, bomb. Surprisingly the last one is annoying as I don't expect it as a m-gar. It was able to bait my crunch (as m-lucario) with a sub, then disable it. heh, pretty funny.

However, it's true gengar can ultimately choose who it wants to eliminate, and this is obviously way to good and it probably won't stick around, as in the hands of a semi-intelligent person can use it extremely effectively and support his team helping them get that sweep that need either immediately or faster.

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

Mega evolving is not the only thing that gengar can do to menace your team. Just having a gengar can force your opponent to save their pursuiter, effectively lowing the score to 6-5. also if Gengar uses substitute on the turn of the mevo, then your pursuiter switching in is useless cuz you have a sub, and can switch out and trap something later.

 

[Dinosaurman]

Again some of these arguments are redundant, you could say this about a lot of mons

Oh he has a Y better keep X healthy for it.

 

[Chazman]

Pursuit trappers are a true counter to Mega-Gengar. I can't send out my gengar to mega-evolve it until their pursuit trappers are taken out because even with perish-trapping them, I still have to switch out on the last turn or die to the perish song. That means that, even though the pursuiter dies, just like gengar, it has served its purpose. Not only that but you now have to consider the fact that things like any non-mega tyranitar and pursuit scizor aren't even megas which leaves you at a disadvantage if they carry their own mega.

Gengar has always been amazingly diverse, and the mega evolution only adds a couple new sets to that mix, which are its only viable ones since normal gengar is arguably better it the standard sub-disable/pain split, and 3 attacks + support move sets. Once it mega-evolves, you can be pretty sure it is running either 2 attacks + taunt + destiny bond, or perish + protect + sub + other. Those are powerful sets, but both can be worked around due to gengar's frailty. Perish trappers also have little offensive presence since they have to invest in HP to make the most of their meager defenses. If you don't have a pursuit user on your team, then switching to a counter while he mega-evolves and then just remembering that he has a meg-gengar in the wings, you can often double switch your defensive pokemon that are vulnerable to mega-gengar and wear him down. I see this done with ferrothorn against opposing magnezone often, and it gives you a huge advantage in terms of momentum.

Really, Mega-Gengar with perish trap feels a lot like a powerful Magnezone in the sense that it takes out specific pokemon (weak, slower, non-priority pokemon that lack earthquake or ghost moves, without sound/infiltrator, or are immune to trapping/sound). That is actually not as many pokemon as you think, and gengars frailty is actually very important here, because even with HP investment, most super-effective or priority attacks will bring you below 75%, which is all you need to do. Gengar will always take at least one hit (unless you switch as he mega-evolves but that happens only once). Yes shadow tag will 100% trap them if this does happen, but if being able to guarantee a kill against certain pokemon is ban-able, then magnezone should be banned too.

I see a lot of posts saying "how do you taunt a speed 130 gengar?" Some of the best taunters are prankster users like thundurus and sableye. Sableye doesn't even get trapped, allowing you to switch to a counter, after you switched sableye in as he mega-evolved.

Okay, first off, in order to counter something, you have to be able to switch in against it. Once he mega evolves, you can no longer switch in without running one of FOUR specific moves that only about 1/10th of the pokemon in the game can use, and MGengar can simply use this awesome move know as Protect, and then swap out on his next turn. Therefore, he has no counters, as nothing can switch in until he kills something.

Secondly, why does Mega Gengar only have to run those two sets? If i want my Mega Gengar to kill fairy types that I seem to be having trouble with, i will run a load out specifically designed to kill fairies. In most cases, said load out would usually be three attacks and protect. Please note that I am simply using fairy as an example. Thanks to MGengar's diversity in move pool, replace fairy with the type of your choice. His diversity lets you set him up to handle those specific threats that your team cant otherwise handle effectively.

Point three: This point has been discussed already. Magnezone can ONLY trap ONE TYPE - STEEL. That's it. Period. End of story. MGengar can trap pretty much any pokemon in the game, unless they run one of those moves i mentioned earlier, or are ghost types or are holding that one item. If you have to start building your team with all of those just to ensure MGengar doesnt wreck your team, congrats. That's over-centralization, which has always been grounds for having something sent to Uber. And yes, we are aware that it has it's weaknesses. None of us for banning it have said otherwise. What we keep saying saying is that it's strengths far far outweighs its weaknesses.

 

[Devious]

No Mengar user who is not drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber would do something that stupid. THere's also a thing called prediction. If you see that pursuit user, you might as well use gengar to lure it in, switch to lucario and even feint mega evolving your lucario in the said situation above, either way, meLucario hits dark type pursuit users ever so hard.

In the case of scizor, it is OBVIOUS that everyone would have a counter to Gen 5's king of OU. other wise you're just "drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber"

P.S. I knew it, this thread was filled with drunkards!

I didn't think about the sub as they switch in, so good point there, but you can't rely on prediction ever. If you double switch gengar just to mega-evolve, there's not a guarantee that they'll switch to their pursuiter if their current pokemon can threaten with a thunderwave or burn to hamper said lucario. The sub is sure way to get the mega evolution off butt just leaves you even weaker, thereby limiting what you can trap to even weaker pokemon since, now anything that does 50% damage to megar is gonna be able to check it. You have to substitute for a turn to ensure the perish song after all, or risk 50% chance of doing nothing with 2x protect.

And this is only talking about the perish trapper, which seems to be less common that the taunt-destiny bond set. That one doesn't have sub and will get killed by pursuit.

If you're going to rely on prediction to say pursuit is not a counter, then the fact that you can predict when mega-gangar is likely to pop back in, and switch your pursuiter in at the same time, means, once again, pursuit users are counters. Don't rely on prediction.

 

[Halcyon.]

What Pursuiter is switching into a Gengar about to Mega Evolve anyway? The only thing I can think of is 252/252 Assault Vest Scizor; everything else is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball or Focus Blast.

 

[T-Bolt]

I didn't think about the sub as they switch in, sogood point there, but you can't rely on prediction ever. If you double switch gengar just to mega-evolve, theres not a guarantee that they'll switch to their pursuiter if there current pokemon can threaten with a thunderwave or burn to hamper said lucario. The sub is sure way to get the mega evolution off butt just leaves you even weaker, thereby limiting what you can trap to even weaker pokemon since, now anything that does 50% damage to megar is gonna be able to check it. You have to substitute for a turn to ensure the perish song after all, or risk 50% chance of doing nothing with 2x protect.

And this is only talking about the perish trapper, which seems to be less common that the taunt-destiny bond set. That one doesn't have sub and will get killed by pursuit.

Mega-Gengar beats most Pursuit trappers one-on-one anyway, if you run an offensive set. Here's Scizor for example-

252 Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 158-188 (58.3 - 69.3%)
(158, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188)

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

I didn't think about the sub as they switch in, sogood point there, but you can't rely on prediction ever. If you double switch gengar just to mega-evolve, theres not a guarantee that they'll switch to their pursuiter if there current pokemon can threaten with a thunderwave or burn to hamper said lucario. The sub is sure way to get the mega evolution off butt just leaves you even weaker, thereby limiting what you can trap to even weaker pokemon since, now anything that does 50% damage to megar is gonna be able to check it. You have to substitute for a turn to ensure the perish song after all, or risk 50% chance of doing nothing with 2x protect.

And this is only talking about the perish trapper, which seems to be less common that the taunt-destiny bond set. That one doesn't have sub and will get killed by pursuit.

You can also run pain split with perish trapper set. Taunt-destiny bond is not the reason that Mengar should get banned as you only gain 1-1. Perish trapping can get 3-1 or even more every match and also opens up your sweeper. Also pokémon that spread status are usually walls, and therefore one of the targets of mengar. My gengar wall Porygon2 with T-wave:

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gengar :71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84 therefore 75% not breaking sub. while pain split will be juicy.

Continueing with a team that carries both potential mega lucario and mega gengar, against an offensive team (with pursuit) mega lucario will be favoured, so you dont need to trap if you can just outright sweep. if a choice band scizor pursuits your non-mega gengar then, that's the perfect time to set up melucario sweep.

 

[I2edShift]

Flat out, being able to pick an choose what you want to take out on an opponents team is way too good. Maybe it just the Perish Songs sets, maybe it's the entire Mega Form. Even without that, MegaGar's SpA and move pool is diverse enough to do serious damage on whatever you've trapped in with you.

 

[THATSAplusONE]

I start thinking that Mega Gengar Anti banning users are making new accounts to vote NO. because I dont understant why is Yes under No in the graphic i can not understand it, it is very clear, MGengar has not counter (YES it is true, NO COUNTERS, pursuit Pokemon are not counters).

I am not going to explain everything because is useless, people here wants MGengar i think for two reasons:

1. They like it and they want to play it in OU beacuse is so coool.

2. They are fucking noobs that they can not play without MGengar.

Is the only answer, I have not found other! The other is that people become crazy, i do not want to believe in that.

Anyway, Please, Smogon Sacred council, when strat reading, shoot yourself, then revive, and then quick banned this fucking monster.

Thanks and cheers anti banned Users.

No need to get angry, it's obvious that it's going to get banned. Anything that gives this much advantage without any sacrifice or real potential for outplay just isn't good for the meta. Thats that :)

 

[Rexxx]

When the Fairies come and Mgengar had not reveled yet, i Thought that Gengar with Sub + Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb and maybe HP fire would be abusive. However, With the Mega Evolution of this I have not doubts.

I am a Gengar player, I like it, I played it like Utility or Wallbreaker in 70% of my 5 Gen teams and I know how monster could be. When I tested MGengar in my first 6 Gen battle, My Azumarril fucks all the mons of my oponents when my MGengar shut the fuck up of Jellicent.

Furthermore, MGengar is not invencible, FUCK, Arceus, the fucking mons god, is not invencible and a good Ferrothorn could stop it's sweep if Arceus don't uses Brick break. However, I think that MGengar is a Metagame broker because people can't uses some pokemon in OU because of him. It is very easy, just accept it, is broker.

Greetings.

 

[Devious]

You can also run pain split with perish trapper set. Taunt-destiny bond is not the reason that Mengar should get banned as you only gain 1-1. Perish trapping can get 3-1 or even more every match and also opens up your sweeper. Also pokémon that spread status are usually walls, and therefore one of the targets of mengar. My gengar wall Porygon2 with T-wave:

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gengar :71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84 therefore 75% not breaking sub. while pain split will be juicy.

Continueing with a team that carries both potential mega lucario and mega gengar, against an offensive team (with pursuit) mega lucario will be favoured, so you dont need to trap if you can just outright sweep. if a choice band scizor pursuits your non-mega gengar then, that's the perfect time to set up melucario sweep.

That's my point, the pokemon it traps can stay in to threaten your lucario if they predict the switch because you have a pursuit trapper in the wings. Now, to think of bulky pursuiters other than sczior... and I thought assault vest tyranitar was good in and of itself, while also being able to take a couple focus blasts, combined with the moves piss poor accuracy? I could be remembering incorrectly though.

Choice scarfed pursuiters? Crobat? Honchkrow resists shadow ball and is neutral to focus blast with 100/52/52. Mega-Heracross is neutral to shadow ball and would be bulkier than scizor. There aren't that many but scizor and tyranitar are already the most common, and specially defensive scizor was already used last generation. Is there a link to how tyranitar fares because I remember reading it on here.

 

[Rexxx]

That's my point, the pokemon it traps can stay in to threaten your lucario if they predict the switch because you have a pursuit trapper in the wings. Now, to think of bulky pursuiters other than sczior... and I thought assault vest tyranitar was good in and of itself, while also being able to take a couple focus blasts, combined with the moves piss poor accuracy? I could be remembering incorrectly though.

Choice scarfed pursuiters? Crobat? Honchkrow resists shadow ball and is neutral to focus blast with 100/52/52. Mega-Heracross is neutral to shadow ball and would be bulkier than scizor. There aren't that many but scizor and tyranitar are already the most common, and specially defensive scizor was already used last generation. Is there a link to how tyranitar fares because I remember reading it on here.

I think that i have Never seen a Crobat in OU; also Heracross in OU is too peculiar when you have better sweepers and revenge killers in the name of... emm... Terrakion, Lucario, Toxicroack, Conke, Scizor, Gyarados, Salamnce, Haxo, Gar...

Don't tell me not, because is true, Heracross is less used in OU because there is something beter, deny it! You can't, if you can, you are the the 1.35478% of that type of players which uses a Heracross instead a Garchomp for revenge or Sweep.

Greetings.

 

[T-Bolt]

That's my point, the pokemon it traps can stay in to threaten your lucario if they predict the switch because you have a pursuit trapper in the wings. Now, to think of bulky pursuiters other than sczior... and I thought assault vest tyranitar was good in and of itself, while also being able to take a couple focus blasts, combined with the moves piss poor accuracy? I could be remembering incorrectly though.

Choice scarfed pursuiters? Crobat? Honchkrow resists shadow ball and is neutral to focus blast with 100/52/52. Mega-Heracross is neutral to shadow ball and would be bulkier than scizor. There aren't that many but scizor and tyranitar are already the most common, and specially defensive scizor was already used last generation. Is there a link to how tyranitar fares because I remember reading it on here.

Assault Vest Tyranitar is 2HKOed by Focus Blast, CB Ttar is OHKOed so no, they can't pursuit trap Mega-Gengar.

Who even uses scarfed pursuiters -_-, pursuit is weak enough as it is. Focus Blast and Shadow ball aren't the only moves Gengar learns, you know. Thunderbolt defeats Crobat and hardly anyone uses Honchkrow in OU.

 

[Devious]

I think that i have Never seen a Crobat in OU; also Heracross in OU is too peculiar when you have better sweepers and revenge killers in the name of... emm... Terrakion, Lucario, Toxicroack, Conke, Scizor, Gyarados, Salamnce, Haxo, Gar...

Don't tell me not, because is true, Heracross is less used in OU because there is something beter, deny it! You can't, if you can, you are the the 1.35478% of that type of players which uses a Heracross instead a Garchomp for revenge or Sweep.

Greetings.

I said mega heracross, which admittedly isn't one of the better megas, but idk where its usage will fall as its essentially a new pokemon the way it plays. Crobat is also going to be very popular this gen because of all the new perks it got including defog. It's never been a bad pokemon, just not quite good enough, but that seems likely to change. Really, the big two pursuiters are TTAr and Scizor anyway, and it seems like they will still be able to fulfill that role, although I'm not sure about TTar and Scizor will have to play defensively. They might not be counters after all, given the power of the attacker set, but any of the pursuiters that can take 2 hits from shadow ball, (which is a much bigger list since that would include the dark types that get killed by focus blast) will be a counter to the perish trapper set.

 

[AOPSUser]

That's my point, the pokemon it traps can stay in to threaten your lucario if they predict the switch because you have a pursuit trapper in the wings. Now, to think of bulky pursuiters other than sczior... and I thought assault vest tyranitar was good in and of itself, while also being able to take a couple focus blasts, combined with the moves piss poor accuracy? I could be remembering incorrectly though.

Choice scarfed pursuiters? Crobat? Honchkrow resists shadow ball and is neutral to focus blast with 100/52/52. Mega-Heracross is neutral to shadow ball and would be bulkier than scizor. There aren't that many but scizor and tyranitar are already the most common, and specially defensive scizor was already used last generation. Is there a link to how tyranitar fares because I remember reading it on here.

AV Tyranitar is still 2HKOed by Focus Blast.

A lot of Scarfed Pursuiters cannot kill Gengar with Pursuit if it stays in, and most of them are too frail to survive anything from Mega Gengar anyways.

Also if you have a Pursuiter in the wings and I'm not Mega, I'll switch in on something I force out, Sub, and switch out of your Pursuiter.

Honchkrow needs heavy Special Defense investment (252/0 doesn't cut it) to survive Sludge Wave after SR. Also Honchkrow doesn't do enough with Pursuit--it needs Sucker Punch to KO Mega Gengar (if it wants to survive that Sludge Wave at all).
Mega Heracross cannot avoid the 2HKO from Sludge Wave after SR unless it runs 252/252 Careful (lol). Most Mega Heracross don't even run Pursuit.

I always switch out of Crobat and Noivern--the risk of Scarf Infiltrator is too big. Also Crobat is most likely not Scarfed, but I never like risking the speed tie unless Mega Gengar has already done its job.

The calcs:

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Honchkrow: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- not an OHKO after SR--Honchkrow NEEDS this.
112+ Atk Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 152-182 (58.2 - 69.7%)
-- not an OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-244 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after SR
4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 134-162 (51.3 - 62%)
-- not an OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Mega Heracross: 135-160 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after SR
36 Atk Mega Heracross Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 124-146 (47.5 - 55.9%)
-- not close to an OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Scizor: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after SR
16+ Atk Mega Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 112-132 (42.9 - 50.5%)
-- not even close

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Scizor: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after SR and Leftovers
84 Atk Scizor Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 94-112 (36 - 42.9%) -- um...

...so...yeah.

I said mega heracross, which admittedly isn't one of the better megas, but idk where its usage will fall as its essentially a new pokemon the way it plays. Crobat is also going to be very popular this gen because of all the new perks it got including defog. It's never been a bad pokemon, just not quite good enough, but that seems likely to change. Really, the big two pursuiters are TTAr and Scizor anyway, and it seems like they will still be able to fulfill that role, although I'm not sure about TTar and Scizor will have to play defensively. They might not be counters after all, given the power of the attacker set, but any of the pursuiters that can take 2 hits from shadow ball, (which is a much bigger list since that would include the dark types that get killed by focus blast) will be a counter to the perish trapper set.

...meh. Sludge Wave takes care of a lot of the Pursuiters, or at least forces them to run so much Special Defense that its Pursuit doesn't actually KO Mega Gengar.

EDIT: I screwed up with the calcs--I didn't take into account the extra Defense. They're worse than I thought.

 

[vayu]

While megagar isn't the biggest threat in my book, the mechanics of how it works is utter crap. If your were less prepared for it, a good player will selectively trap certain counters via volt/turn or good double switching to significantly enable the rest of his team.

Sure you can do the same with other pokemon but shadow tag is unhealthy for the metagame and that's all there is to it. Just like how latias eventually got the shaft the gen 4.

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

I really love reading the few INCREDIBLY SPECIFIC ways to "deal" with Mega Gengar vs the sheer amount of "this is why Mega Gengar is broken". Like, really, it's been almost 30 pages, no one has given any good "don't ban it" reasoning, and anyone that tries to say "don't ban it" pretty much ignores/doesn't understand the "ban it" points being made. There have been about 20 posts I wanted to quote and just tear apart, but everything I could say has already been said, and said at least 5 times per page.

 

[Enygma]

I honestly don't believe that Gengarite deserves a quickban at this point in time. The meta hasn't officially stabilized, yet. The meta may shift a little bit once Pokebank is released and we can learn more about the game.

At the very least, I'd say Gengarite should be considered on the list for a suspect test. There's too many this-and-that arguments in this thread that have very little to no tests nor sufficient amount of playtesting to prove that MGengar displays a majority of the Uber characteristics.

 

[MagicMissingno]

I honestly don't believe that Gengarite deserves a quickban at this point in time. The meta hasn't officially stabilized, yet. The meta may shift a little bit once Pokebank is released and we can learn more about the game.

At the very least, I'd say Gengarite should be considered on the list for a suspect test. There's too many this-and-that arguments in this thread that have very little to no tests nor sufficient amount of playtesting to prove that MGengar displays a majority of the Uber characteristics.

Unless Pokebank gives somehow changes Shadow Tag to not trap everything but ghosts it's not going to have an effect.

 

[Curtains]

I really love reading the few INCREDIBLY SPECIFIC ways to "deal" with Mega Gengar vs the sheer amount of "this is why Mega Gengar is broken". Like, really, it's been almost 30 pages, no one has given any good "don't ban it" reasoning, and anyone that tries to say "don't ban it" pretty much ignores/doesn't understand the "ban it" points being made. There have been about 20 posts I wanted to quote and just tear apart, but everything I could say has already been said, and said at least 5 times per page.

This thread is sad because it has just become the pro ban side literally cursing out users and the anti-ban side struggling to counter the paragraphs of whining. I think it is alot tougher for the anti ban side to make an argument based on the point that the metagame is so so fresh and it is way easier to point to this stat, and that stat, and that stat, and this user that thinks its broken, and this ability and this teammate and just throw up your hands and call it broken. Then the anti ban side has to counter every single point or his/her argument is worthless or just gets ignored all together even though it makes some sense and it doesn't contain f bombs every sentence or stupid mspaint drawings (because that worked well for keldeo). With that said I think it should be banned. It is the best revenge killer in the game and the best overall user of shadow tag. Regular gengar with Shadow tag would be broken so with the stat increases it is just over the top imo. Thanks , come again.

 

[Pokepon]

I don't know if this has been said yet but couldn't mega kangaskhan double sucker punch to counter offensive sets? For shadow tag and perish song couldn't one just ditto into mega gengar to avoid getting perish trapped? Choice scarf ditto could counter mega gengar with offensive sets as the item slot is taken up by a mega stone on the opposing mega gengar.
If all my reasons were garbage or nonsensical then I apologize in advance as I am new to the whole competitive scene.